heavy metal goes prog?

Prog metal is basically more complex. More interesting time structures, chord changes, instrumentation (not all bands) and melodies.

I guess heavy metal bands sometimes play prog metal and vice versa with prog metal bands....

I would say that Metallica opened a door to the prog metal movement with tracks such as 'The call of Cthulu' or the album '... And justice for all'. Yes, prog metal developed thanks to 'technical' thrash metal bands : Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek, the then guitarist founded later Spastic Ink, a project involving his brother,  and a true mind-blowing mix of Zappa and prog metal), Clockwork, Cynic (Sean Malone, the bassist, founded later Gordian Knot, a supergroup involving members of Dream Theater, King Crimson and Watchtower), Conception (their guitarist, Tore Ostby joined later Ark who released one of the best prog metal CDs ever). The prog metal scene developed also thanks to bands playing NWOBHM (british heavy metal) such as Iron Maiden. In fact Bruce Dickinson inspired many prog metal vocalists : John Arch from Fates Warning, Geoff Tate from Queensryche and James LaBrie of Dream theater fame obviously. Some bands played prog at times (Iron Maiden for example or Metallica), but the real change in the songwriting came with the ultimate Dream Theater's album 'Images and words', a reference in the prog metal world that opened the path to a new way of playing metal stuff. This way consisted in the inclusion of progressive rock ingredients (i.e. beautiful vocals, complex rhythms and keyboards) in the metal music. With the revival of the progressive music at the beginning of the nineties and Dream Theater's success, Peter Morticelli and Mike Varney, who produced many guitar shredders in the eighties decided to found the metal progressive label : Magna Carta, a label that produced many prog metal groups : Magellan, Ice Age (highly recommended), Altura (only one album but very good), Enchant (a blend of DT and Marillion), Shadow Gallery... The progressive influence was very clear within these bands. In Europe, another label helped prog metal bands spread their wings : Inside Out, and some american bands even prefered to sign on this label rather than on Magna Carta, because their audience was bigger in Europe than in the USA. Conversely, European prog metal bands were much less 'prog' than their American homologous : Stratovarius, Eldritch, Symphony X, Rhapsody versus Enchant, Cairo (very ELP/Rush-influenced) or Magellan. Today, it is very difficult to qualify some bands as plain metal or prog metal, as some gothic metal sound prog (I think of The Gathering), some death metal bands play with the feeling of 'prog' bands : Death, Atheist, Opeth. Some old icons of the prog metal movement came back with a solo career : Geoff Tate (Queensryche), DC Cooper (Royal Hunt), John Arch (Fates Warning). But only the latter managed to be faithful to the prog metal movement (although paradoxically his debuts in Fates Warning were not prog metal) and I urge you to purchase his solo album : 'A twist of fate', it features DT's drummer extraordinaire Mike Portnoy, Fates Warning's guitarist Jim Matheos on guitar and keyboards and bassist Joey Vera.

Personally, as a Prog-Head and a Metal-Head, I never cared that much for what is called "Progressive Metal."  What I groove on is the more avant-garde Metal bands like Arcturus, Vintersorg, Solefald, Borknagar, maudlin of the Well, and (to some degree) Opeth.  I think they are truly more "progressive" in their music, because they are doing things that have not been done over-and-over again.  While the musicians in these bands have great chops, rarely do they cross the line into w**king, where the might of the solo is more important than the song.

Having said that, and as a newbie to this site, I have been checking out some of the MP3's for Progressive Metal bands, and finding some of them more enjoyable than I expected.  So I am keeping an open mind.....

Peace,

Ulf

arqwave wrote: the "real exposure" of prog metal came with the fall of hard rock and the rise of "new" bands like Savatge, Fates Warning and Dream Theater, but let´s mention the master Yngwie Malmsteen... isn´t his first records worth inluding on the progressive realm???

AU SECOURS!!! what the hell are you talking about!

arqwave wrote: i wrote about a little controversy... i thought you might be following these steps, but well, i think that metal comes from prog rock... and i don´t care to claim that prog rock comes strictly from classical music. is the perfect fusion of rock and classic (baroque, romantic, 20th century, etc), even kraut rock, art rock or so... of you begain to mix another styles, then you should call it FUSION, hear any record from Al di Meola, or Chick Corea

HHMMM,

I can see Metal coming from Hendrix and Purple and Heep, maybe even a little Cream.

 Prog comes from English church music, which has a base in classical, a bit of rock and roll and jazz. Look at Yes, for example. You had choirboy vocals with Jon and Chris, Jazz drumming, churchlike keyboards (organ), rock and roll guitar and bass from (????). Yes didn't really get any "metal" sound until Steve Howe tore up Starship Trooper and Yours is no Disgrace. By this time, there was plenty of Smoke on the Water from metals progenitors. 

But Prog is a fusion of sorts by definition:   

¹pro·gres·sive
Pronunciation: pr&-'gre-siv
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characterized by progress b : making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c : of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
2 : of, relating to, or characterized by progression
3 : moving forward or onward : ADVANCING
4 a : increasing in extent or severity <a progressive disease> b : increasing in rate as the base increases <a progressive tax>
5 often capitalized : of or relating to political Progressives
6 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form that expresses action or state in progress at the time of speaking or a time spoken of

Merriam Websters on-line: http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict.htm

lucas wrote: I would say that Metallica opened a door to the prog metal movement with tracks such as 'The call of Cthulu' or the album '... And justice for all'. Yes, prog metal developed thanks to 'technical' thrash metal bands : Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek, the then guitarist founded later Spastic Ink, a project involving his brother,  and a true mind-blowing mix of Zappa and prog metal), Clockwork, Cynic (Sean Malone, the bassist, founded later Gordian Knot, a supergroup involving members of Dream Theater, King Crimson and Watchtower), Conception (their guitarist, Tore Ostby joined later Ark who released one of the best prog metal CDs ever). The prog metal scene developed also thanks to bands playing NWOBHM (british heavy metal) such as Iron Maiden. In fact Bruce Dickinson inspired many prog metal vocalists : John Arch from Fates Warning, Geoff Tate from Queensryche and James LaBrie of Dream theater fame obviously. Some bands played prog at times (Iron Maiden for example or Metallica), but the real change in the songwriting came with the ultimate Dream Theater's album 'Images and words', a reference in the prog metal world that opened the path to a new way of playing metal stuff. This way consisted in the inclusion of progressive rock ingredients (i.e. beautiful vocals, complex rhythms and keyboards) in the metal music. With the revival of the progressive music at the beginning of the nineties and Dream Theater's success, Peter Morticelli and Mike Varney, who produced many guitar shredders in the eighties decided to found the metal progressive label : Magna Carta, a label that produced many prog metal groups : Magellan, Ice Age (highly recommended), Altura (only one album but very good), Enchant (a blend of DT and Marillion), Shadow Gallery... The progressive influence was very clear within these bands. In Europe, another label helped prog metal bands spread their wings : Inside Out, and some american bands even prefered to sign on this label rather than on Magna Carta, because their audience was bigger in Europe than in the USA. Conversely, European prog metal bands were much less 'prog' than their American homologous : Stratovarius, Eldritch, Symphony X, Rhapsody versus Enchant, Cairo (very ELP/Rush-influenced) or Magellan. Today, it is very difficult to qualify some bands as plain metal or prog metal, as some gothic metal sound prog (I think of The Gathering), some death metal bands play with the feeling of 'prog' bands : Death, Atheist, Opeth. Some old icons of the prog metal movement came back with a solo career : Geoff Tate (Queensryche), DC Cooper (Royal Hunt), John Arch (Fates Warning). But only the latter managed to be faithful to the prog metal movement (although paradoxically his debuts in Fates Warning were not prog metal) and I urge you to purchase his solo album : 'A twist of fate', it features DT's drummer extraordinaire Mike Portnoy, Fates Warning's guitarist Jim Matheos on guitar and keyboards and bassist Joey Vera.

You forgot to mention Iron Maiden's self-titled debut! Just listen to the song The Phantom Of The Opera. And of course: Judas Priest's SAD WINGS OF DESTINY!!!

mmmmmmmm Victim Of Changes  

"Prog Country"

I recall Bill Bruford saying that Yes stole a lot of their epic melodies from American TV Westerns.

 Yippytiyo.

in some cases we tend to confuse the thin line in between metal and prog, as Elfangio quoted, theres a bunch of good metal bands that "looked like" they're playing prog, but is just a fixture of our imagination... 

and for example the Magna carta issue, is a very hard one, and i don't know why they promote and then cut the strings for those bands, also i was amazed when they publushed a record from a band of san francisco named SADUS, they are DEATH METAL so what is the deal in here?