Prog metal is basically more complex. More interesting time structures, chord changes, instrumentation (not all bands) and melodies.

I guess heavy metal bands sometimes play prog metal and vice versa with prog metal bands....

This topic was there before on the wrong spot, i'll move the reply's:

Joren:
Yes, I think Savatage is a great example!
(but I think this topic should be moved to Main Discussions)

janhuss:
good point with savatage.
generally, when occurs complexity, (heavy) metal is very close to prog. metal. in other words, not only heavy, but all the genres in metal.

and me:

I would say that Metallica opened a door to the prog metal movement with tracks such as 'The call of Cthulu' or the album '... And justice for all'. Yes, prog metal developed thanks to 'technical' thrash metal bands : Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek, the then guitarist founded later Spastic Ink, a project involving his brother,  and a true mind-blowing mix of Zappa and prog metal), Clockwork, Cynic (Sean Malone, the bassist, founded later Gordian Knot, a supergroup involving members of Dream Theater, King Crimson and Watchtower), Conception (their guitarist, Tore Ostby joined later Ark who released one of the best prog metal CDs ever). The prog metal scene developed also thanks to bands playing NWOBHM (british heavy metal) such as Iron Maiden. In fact Bruce Dickinson inspired many prog metal vocalists : John Arch from Fates Warning, Geoff Tate from Queensryche and James LaBrie of Dream theater fame obviously. Some bands played prog at times (Iron Maiden for example or Metallica), but the real change in the songwriting came with the ultimate Dream Theater's album 'Images and words', a reference in the prog metal world that opened the path to a new way of playing metal stuff. This way consisted in the inclusion of progressive rock ingredients (i.e. beautiful vocals, complex rhythms and keyboards) in the metal music. With the revival of the progressive music at the beginning of the nineties and Dream Theater's success, Peter Morticelli and Mike Varney, who produced many guitar shredders in the eighties decided to found the metal progressive label : Magna Carta, a label that produced many prog metal groups : Magellan, Ice Age (highly recommended), Altura (only one album but very good), Enchant (a blend of DT and Marillion), Shadow Gallery... The progressive influence was very clear within these bands. In Europe, another label helped prog metal bands spread their wings : Inside Out, and some american bands even prefered to sign on this label rather than on Magna Carta, because their audience was bigger in Europe than in the USA. Conversely, European prog metal bands were much less 'prog' than their American homologous : Stratovarius, Eldritch, Symphony X, Rhapsody versus Enchant, Cairo (very ELP/Rush-influenced) or Magellan. Today, it is very difficult to qualify some bands as plain metal or prog metal, as some gothic metal sound prog (I think of The Gathering), some death metal bands play with the feeling of 'prog' bands : Death, Atheist, Opeth. Some old icons of the prog metal movement came back with a solo career : Geoff Tate (Queensryche), DC Cooper (Royal Hunt), John Arch (Fates Warning). But only the latter managed to be faithful to the prog metal movement (although paradoxically his debuts in Fates Warning were not prog metal) and I urge you to purchase his solo album : 'A twist of fate', it features DT's drummer extraordinaire Mike Portnoy, Fates Warning's guitarist Jim Matheos on guitar and keyboards and bassist Joey Vera.

http://www.theendrecords.com/html/GC/GC.htm - http://www.theendrecords.com/html/GC/GC.htm

JUST listen to the g-damn samples !

Personally, as a Prog-Head and a Metal-Head, I never cared that much for what is called "Progressive Metal."  What I groove on is the more avant-garde Metal bands like Arcturus, Vintersorg, Solefald, Borknagar, maudlin of the Well, and (to some degree) Opeth.  I think they are truly more "progressive" in their music, because they are doing things that have not been done over-and-over again.  While the musicians in these bands have great chops, rarely do they cross the line into w**king, where the might of the solo is more important than the song.

Having said that, and as a newbie to this site, I have been checking out some of the MP3's for Progressive Metal bands, and finding some of them more enjoyable than I expected.  So I am keeping an open mind.....

Peace,

Ulf

arqwave wrote: the "real exposure" of prog metal came with the fall of hard rock and the rise of "new" bands like Savatge, Fates Warning and Dream Theater, but let´s mention the master Yngwie Malmsteen... isn´t his first records worth inluding on the progressive realm???

AU SECOURS!!! what the hell are you talking about!

arqwave wrote: i wrote about a little controversy... i thought you might be following these steps, but well, i think that metal comes from prog rock... and i don´t care to claim that prog rock comes strictly from classical music. is the perfect fusion of rock and classic (baroque, romantic, 20th century, etc), even kraut rock, art rock or so... of you begain to mix another styles, then you should call it FUSION, hear any record from Al di Meola, or Chick Corea

HHMMM,

I can see Metal coming from Hendrix and Purple and Heep, maybe even a little Cream.

 Prog comes from English church music, which has a base in classical, a bit of rock and roll and jazz. Look at Yes, for example. You had choirboy vocals with Jon and Chris, Jazz drumming, churchlike keyboards (organ), rock and roll guitar and bass from (????). Yes didn't really get any "metal" sound until Steve Howe tore up Starship Trooper and Yours is no Disgrace. By this time, there was plenty of Smoke on the Water from metals progenitors. 

But Prog is a fusion of sorts by definition:   

¹pro·gres·sive javascript popWin'/cgi-bin/audio.pl?progre05.wav=progressive' -
Pronunciation: pr&-'gre-siv
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characterized by http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=progress - progress b : making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c : of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
2 : of, relating to, or characterized by http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=progression - progression
3 : moving forward or onward : http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=advancing - ADVANCING
4 a : increasing in extent or severity <a progressive disease> b : increasing in rate as the base increases <a progressive tax>
5 often capitalized : of or relating to political Progressives
6 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form that expresses action or state in http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=progress - progress at the time of speaking or a time spoken of

Merriam Websters on-line: http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict.htm - http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict.htm

OK, i got the concept, so you're saying that "Prog-wahatever" is like Architecture: Archi-tecture, better construction, "higher construction"... so if progressive is advance and improvement, is the "best side" of the adjective is using?... then... actually is a solid foundation, but keeps my thoughts... why, prog-metal if prog-rock arrived first? and heavy metal is a consecuence of rock in any form, actually, if we go down there, the real roots of it relies in jazz and pointly in Blues... and the "fusion" of things with classical arrived with prog rock... in the late 60's.

i´m opening this because the term is very wide open

Glass-Prison wrote: I think 1b is about the best description of prog. Prog definitely expands and innovates using new ideas, that alone should be self evident. number 2 or 3 would likely explain the prog metal movement. as metal was extremely popular in the 80s, it is only logical that prog bands should progress with metal as their base. IE. many bands in the early sixties were influenced by jazz and classical, and therefore progressed into the realm of mainstream rock. prog metal seems to be progressing from that age into the metal age. what we see here is simply a fusion between the prog sounds of the first wave of prog and the thrash metal sounds that modern prog bands grew up to. In the future it is quite likely that prog metal will fuse with another style (hopefully not rap).

Don't be quick to suggest that prog will ONLY head in the "METAL" direction. Each distinctive genre of music today; world, new age, jazz, pop, rap..... can be ingested and spewed forth with a progressive rock sensibility.

Peter Gabriel has done some marvelous things incorporating world music into his own genre of Progressive music.

IZZ has a lot of pop music in their brand of Prog. Salem Hill, too!!!

The Prog Metal movement is more geared towards todays youth (no offense intended) because it pisses off the parents ("Turn that  down"). I like some heavy stuff, usually instrumental 'cause I can't stand hair metal vocals, but that is my opinion.

WARNING: Views expressed do not represent anyone but Danbo. He could be under the influence of Samuel Adams, Dos Equis Amber, or other mind atlering libations.  

lucas wrote: I would say that Metallica opened a door to the prog metal movement with tracks such as 'The call of Cthulu' or the album '... And justice for all'. Yes, prog metal developed thanks to 'technical' thrash metal bands : Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek, the then guitarist founded later Spastic Ink, a project involving his brother,  and a true mind-blowing mix of Zappa and prog metal), Clockwork, Cynic (Sean Malone, the bassist, founded later Gordian Knot, a supergroup involving members of Dream Theater, King Crimson and Watchtower), Conception (their guitarist, Tore Ostby joined later Ark who released one of the best prog metal CDs ever). The prog metal scene developed also thanks to bands playing NWOBHM (british heavy metal) such as Iron Maiden. In fact Bruce Dickinson inspired many prog metal vocalists : John Arch from Fates Warning, Geoff Tate from Queensryche and James LaBrie of Dream theater fame obviously. Some bands played prog at times (Iron Maiden for example or Metallica), but the real change in the songwriting came with the ultimate Dream Theater's album 'Images and words', a reference in the prog metal world that opened the path to a new way of playing metal stuff. This way consisted in the inclusion of progressive rock ingredients (i.e. beautiful vocals, complex rhythms and keyboards) in the metal music. With the revival of the progressive music at the beginning of the nineties and Dream Theater's success, Peter Morticelli and Mike Varney, who produced many guitar shredders in the eighties decided to found the metal progressive label : Magna Carta, a label that produced many prog metal groups : Magellan, Ice Age (highly recommended), Altura (only one album but very good), Enchant (a blend of DT and Marillion), Shadow Gallery... The progressive influence was very clear within these bands. In Europe, another label helped prog metal bands spread their wings : Inside Out, and some american bands even prefered to sign on this label rather than on Magna Carta, because their audience was bigger in Europe than in the USA. Conversely, European prog metal bands were much less 'prog' than their American homologous : Stratovarius, Eldritch, Symphony X, Rhapsody versus Enchant, Cairo (very ELP/Rush-influenced) or Magellan. Today, it is very difficult to qualify some bands as plain metal or prog metal, as some gothic metal sound prog (I think of The Gathering), some death metal bands play with the feeling of 'prog' bands : Death, Atheist, Opeth. Some old icons of the prog metal movement came back with a solo career : Geoff Tate (Queensryche), DC Cooper (Royal Hunt), John Arch (Fates Warning). But only the latter managed to be faithful to the prog metal movement (although paradoxically his debuts in Fates Warning were not prog metal) and I urge you to purchase his solo album : 'A twist of fate', it features DT's drummer extraordinaire Mike Portnoy, Fates Warning's guitarist Jim Matheos on guitar and keyboards and bassist Joey Vera.

You forgot to mention Iron Maiden's self-titled debut! Just listen to the song The Phantom Of The Opera. And of course: Judas Priest's SAD WINGS OF DESTINY!!!

mmmmmmmm Victim Of Changes  

danbo wrote: Glass-Prison wrote: I think 1b is about the best description of prog. Prog definitely expands and innovates using new ideas, that alone should be self evident. number 2 or 3 would likely explain the prog metal movement. as metal was extremely popular in the 80s, it is only logical that prog bands should progress with metal as their base. IE. many bands in the early sixties were influenced by jazz and classical, and therefore progressed into the realm of mainstream rock. prog metal seems to be progressing from that age into the metal age. what we see here is simply a fusion between the prog sounds of the first wave of prog and the thrash metal sounds that modern prog bands grew up to. In the future it is quite likely that prog metal will fuse with another style (hopefully not rap).   Don't be quick to suggest that prog will ONLY head in the "METAL" direction. Each distinctive genre of music today; world, new age, jazz, pop, rap..... can be ingested and spewed forth with a progressive rock sensibility. Peter Gabriel has done some marvelous things incorporating world music into his own genre of Progressive music. IZZ has a lot of pop music in their brand of Prog. Salem Hill, too!!! The Prog Metal movement is more geared towards todays youth (no offense intended) because it pisses off the parents ("Turn that  down"). I like some heavy stuff, usually instrumental 'cause I can't stand hair metal vocals, but that is my opinion. WARNING: Views expressed do not represent anyone but Danbo. He could be under the influence of Samuel Adams, Dos Equis Amber, or other mind atlering libations.

I never said that metal was the ONLY direction prog was going, I just said it was the most popular, seeing as most of the musicians started with a metal base. I have heard of many different mutations, progressive country being the weirdest. Even though, in that case the musicians obviously felt a need to expand on the limitations imposed on the country genre. I have not heard any prog country, and I do not intend to, but I am sure it is interesting in its own form

"Prog Country"

I recall Bill Bruford saying that Yes stole a lot of their epic melodies from American TV Westerns.

 Yippytiyo.

lucas wrote: I would say that Metallica opened a door to the prog metal movement with tracks such as 'The call of Cthulu' or the album '... And justice for all'. Yes, prog metal developed thanks to 'technical' thrash metal bands : Watchtower (Ron Jarzombek, the then guitarist founded later Spastic Ink, a project involving his brother,  and a true mind-blowing mix of Zappa and prog metal), Clockwork, Cynic (Sean Malone, the bassist, founded later Gordian Knot, a supergroup involving members of Dream Theater, King Crimson and Watchtower), Conception (their guitarist, Tore Ostby joined later Ark who released one of the best prog metal CDs ever). The prog metal scene developed also thanks to bands playing NWOBHM (british heavy metal) such as Iron Maiden. In fact Bruce Dickinson inspired many prog metal vocalists : John Arch from Fates Warning, Geoff Tate from Queensryche and James LaBrie of Dream theater fame obviously. Some bands played prog at times (Iron Maiden for example or Metallica), but the real change in the songwriting came with the ultimate Dream Theater's album 'Images and words', a reference in the prog metal world that opened the path to a new way of playing metal stuff. This way consisted in the inclusion of progressive rock ingredients (i.e. beautiful vocals, complex rhythms and keyboards) in the metal music. With the revival of the progressive music at the beginning of the nineties and Dream Theater's success, Peter Morticelli and Mike Varney, who produced many guitar shredders in the eighties decided to found the metal progressive label : Magna Carta, a label that produced many prog metal groups : Magellan, Ice Age (highly recommended), Altura (only one album but very good), Enchant (a blend of DT and Marillion), Shadow Gallery... The progressive influence was very clear within these bands. In Europe, another label helped prog metal bands spread their wings : Inside Out, and some american bands even prefered to sign on this label rather than on Magna Carta, because their audience was bigger in Europe than in the USA. Conversely, European prog metal bands were much less 'prog' than their American homologous : Stratovarius, Eldritch, Symphony X, Rhapsody versus Enchant, Cairo (very ELP/Rush-influenced) or Magellan. Today, it is very difficult to qualify some bands as plain metal or prog metal, as some gothic metal sound prog (I think of The Gathering), some death metal bands play with the feeling of 'prog' bands : Death, Atheist, Opeth. Some old icons of the prog metal movement came back with a solo career : Geoff Tate (Queensryche), DC Cooper (Royal Hunt), John Arch (Fates Warning). But only the latter managed to be faithful to the prog metal movement (although paradoxically his debuts in Fates Warning were not prog metal) and I urge you to purchase his solo album : 'A twist of fate', it features DT's drummer extraordinaire Mike Portnoy, Fates Warning's guitarist Jim Matheos on guitar and keyboards and bassist Joey Vera.

Great post, Lucas. But I have some remarks:

1) I definitely agree that Iron Maiden, Metallica...(and also Megadeth, to some extent, even though it can be surprising) have an influence on prog metal, but let's not forget about the grandfathers of metal, Deep Purple (remember these Hammond organ solos on Made In Japan?), Led Zeppelin, or Black Sabbath (Tony Iommi was an underrated but still very influencial guitarist). I might add that shredders also had an influence (Malmsteen, Satriani, or my favorite guitarist, Mr Steve Vai, who played with the great Zappa).

2) Since when Symphony X are european?

3) About Magna Carta, many artists now refuse to get involved with it, because they treated the musicians like sh*t. Mike Portnoy had many problems releasing his drum method "Liquid Drum Theater" because Magna Carta wouldn't let him use LTE's songs.

4) Some bands you quoted aren't strictly prog, like Stratovarius or Rhapsody, they're more "power metal" (the same style also played by Hammerfall, Blind Guardian, Angra, Helloween, Nightwish, ...).

in some cases we tend to confuse the thin line in between metal and prog, as Elfangio quoted, theres a bunch of good metal bands that "looked like" they're playing prog, but is just a fixture of our imagination... 

and for example the Magna carta issue, is a very hard one, and i don't know why they promote and then cut the strings for those bands, also i was amazed when they publushed a record from a band of san francisco named SADUS, they are DEATH METAL so what is the deal in here?

Ah - this explains why I couldn't find a thread entitled "What Is Prog" - you guys discuss this question all the time!

Great! And I'm glad it's not just me that thinks Judas Priest and Metallica are prog. How about Budgie - that oft-ignored Welsh trio?

As for Zeppelin, Purple and Sabbath - they all stole from the SF Bay scene (Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane etc - Oh, and a decade or so later, Metallica!). I've been listening to a band called Blue Cheer recently - and it's astounding that for such an intrinsically crap band, you can hear stuff that Purple would become famous for (that "hammond sound"), Sabbath (those awesome riffs), Zeppelin - even the Doors and the Who seem to have pilfered from this band.

From a historical perspective, Blue Cheer are incredible (in one sense of the word!) - check out Vincebus Eruptum and especially Outside Inside (got its name because, according to legend, they were so loud that they destroyed the recording studio during the production of side one, so they had to finish the album in the field outside). It has to be said that most of the incredible stuff happens by accident - they had as much talent as the Bay City Rollers.

However, their cover of "Summertime Blues" is truly inspired - and arguably progressive.