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Finnforest View Drop Down
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 21:29
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  It's a war you cannot win because the clock is not going to be turned back. If you're older, you've lost.
"All this were fields when I were a lad" couldn't be less relevant. You're preparing them for the world as it is today and if you can't engage in that world today, your usefulness to them will be limited.



While I'm in middle age and understand how the older guys feel, and while I often rant about "today" myself, Textbook's post was both insightful and helpful to me.  I feel torn between two worlds myself at times. 

As sharp as your insight is (and as sharp as many of the other young guys I consider it my privilege to know here), there is some glaring overstatement there.   The life experience you will amass over the next half dozen decades will teach you that there is a wisdom codgers possess that the adrenalin culture cannot give you.  (And perhaps you're not that "young" Textbook, but I'm speaking generally about the young here). 

When "all this were fields" come decades and times that give one perspective, and this is hardly irrelevant in being a whole human being.  You will lose your loved ones.  You will have to help a friend through a painful divorce or the loss of his child.  You may get a life threatening disease.  You will fall in love, she will break your heart, and you will fall in love again.  You will have any number of catastrophes, and great joys hit you and knock the youthful chip from your shoulder.  The oldsters here that you sometimes rightfully mock have been through these things, and these are not worthless commodities, but life wisdom to be shared.  Laugh at us sometimes, tell us when we're overreacting, but don't write us off as worthless.  Don't think we can't offer you anything you can't get from the internet.  Embrace the old as you would have us take you seriously.  Look beyond your parents to your grandparents for their perspective too.  I realize you mentioned ACR should give some perspective, but I think your overall comment minimize the strengths of experience.  It is just as short-sighted to assume the worlds future citizens need only know how to be tech savvy and credentialed in modern culture as it is to think the other way. 

Young and old need each other.  Thanks for reminding me of that, and I hope you take the reply in the good spirit it was intended. 
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 21:54
One more thought if you can stand itLOL

In the past decade, I have spent 100s of hours interviewing very old people for history research.  Many of these subjects, in their 70s-90s, have already passed away.  Far from being irrelevant, hearing their stories had me on the edge of my seat.  Hearing their words and seeing their faces was an experience that will stay with me for the rest of their ride.  "All this were fields" can be fascinating indeed. 

Folks on both sides of the generations gap would be wise to not be so cocky, and to listen.  I'm as guilty as anyone of being dismissive sometimes, but I'll keep trying to be objective until the day comes when I am truly Homer's Dad.  Then I'll just bitch about the food.Wink
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 21:58
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:02
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:


In the past decade, I have spent 100s of hours interviewing very old people for history research.  Many of these subjects, in their 70s-90s, have already passed away. 

You interview dead people? Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:03
Walter, you're way behind the curve, man.  KOS used that one on me weeks/months agoLOL.

Fair enough, I was just trying to find some common ground here.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 22:54
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by <FONT color=#ff0000>Peter</FONT> Peter wrote:


Most people on this forum will be basically unwilling unable to read a post this long. They cannot focus that long -- it takes effort, and facility with language (thinking & communication skills).
Hey Peter, could you try being a little more patronizing? I've heard that insulting the intelligence of your readers is a good way to get people to listen to you, but I think that you haven't gone quite far enough to drive the point home. Perhaps you could accuse us of being so absorbed in our digital world we don't know that there's a massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Or perhaps tell us we don't have the focus to listen to a whole album in one sitting? The possibilities are endless.
 
Well, no one seems to read my reviews anymore....Cry

There's been a lot of people talking lately about the decline of attention spans, but and I don't dispute them to some extent, but I think they're missing the point: posting on this forum is not as good for your reading abilities as wading through Heidegger, although I would argue it's beneficial in other ways, but before the internet, most people were not reading Heidegger, they were watching Diff'rent Strokes! And I'm 100% certain that spending half an hour in a discussion about anything is better than watching Diff'rent Strokes. Through Facebook and forums, the internet has returned the written word to a central part of our cultural discourse after radio and TV. It's as if people don't want to remember that Amusing Ourselves to Death was written in 1985, and let us not forget O Tempore O Mores....

And I like starting sentences with conjunctions and linking run on sentences with commas and sometimes using sentence fragments. It's much more natural and conversational than trying to make a post read like a high school English essay. Although I do admit that it's/its/there/their/they're/you're/your can drive me batty sometimes. ;-)
 
Thumbs Up You're clearly an exception, dear Henry -- as are all PA members, obviously! Yay! (I generalize, generally. Please don't take it personally, and have FUN!  Go team Humvee! ) Wink
 
Still, most humans are sheep-like lazy dolts (or most often BEHAVE that way -- see Earth), and I believe that written communication (if not oral, as well) is devolving. Nor am I alone in that belief -- far from it..
[QUOTE=Peter]
Some want to be dancers or pop stars. An easy route to  riches and fame, with no work involved.....
People don't like to work? How shocking! And do you really think that becoming a famous dancer or pop star or actor is so easy it requires no work? Because any famous person you can find is going to disagree with you there...
 
^ Sarcasm alert (admittedly, often hard to spot in text). TRY THIS VERSION: 
Some want to be dancers or pop stars. An "easy" route to  riches and fame, with "no" work involved.....WinkWinkWinkWinkWink <<<
 


Edited by Peter - June 10 2010 at 23:27
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 23:13
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Toddler: It's all about fear of death. People used to believe in an afterlife. As that falls apart, they look for media immortality.
I think that's likely pretty accurate. Clap
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 23:16
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

  It's a war you cannot win because the clock is not going to be turned back. If you're older, you've lost.
"All this were fields when I were a lad" couldn't be less relevant. You're preparing them for the world as it is today and if you can't engage in that world today, your usefulness to them will be limited.



While I'm in middle age and understand how the older guys feel, and while I often rant about "today" myself, Textbook's post was both insightful and helpful to me.  I feel torn between two worlds myself at times. 

As sharp as your insight is (and as sharp as many of the other young guys I consider it my privilege to know here), there is some glaring overstatement there.   The life experience you will amass over the next half dozen decades will teach you that there is a wisdom codgers possess that the adrenalin culture cannot give you.  (And perhaps you're not that "young" Textbook, but I'm speaking generally about the young here). 

When "all this were fields" come decades and times that give one perspective, and this is hardly irrelevant in being a whole human being.  You will lose your loved ones.  You will have to help a friend through a painful divorce or the loss of his child.  You may get a life threatening disease.  You will fall in love, she will break your heart, and you will fall in love again.  You will have any number of catastrophes, and great joys hit you and knock the youthful chip from your shoulder.  The oldsters here that you sometimes rightfully mock have been through these things, and these are not worthless commodities, but life wisdom to be shared.  Laugh at us sometimes, tell us when we're overreacting, but don't write us off as worthless.  Don't think we can't offer you anything you can't get from the internet.  Embrace the old as you would have us take you seriously.  Look beyond your parents to your grandparents for their perspective too.  I realize you mentioned ACR should give some perspective, but I think your overall comment minimize the strengths of experience.  It is just as short-sighted to assume the worlds future citizens need only know how to be tech savvy and credentialed in modern culture as it is to think the other way. 

Young and old need each other.  Thanks for reminding me of that, and I hope you take the reply in the good spirit it was intended. 
ClapClapClap
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2010 at 23:51
Finnforest: I find your words completely agreeable and palatable, free as they are of the superior, self-centred, "transference-of-own-shortcomings-in-dealing-with-change-into-blame-on-the-next-generation-not-listening-to-you-because-they-are-all-stupid-and-inferior" rubbish I was detecting in some of the other posters. I am only 29 but I am determined never to become one of those frozen-in-time older people whose potential to hand down wisdom is completely neutralised by their insistance that only time travel to the past can fix the problems of today.
 
I don't think the old are irrelevant at all, but I find WAY too many older people sitting about on the internet going "BLAH BLAH BLAH, EVERYTHING IS RUBBISH EXCEPT ME". Young people seem to be far less likely to burst into rants about how awful everything old is. That is because they are not experiencing the pain of seeing their values and culture "corrected" by the next generation. The old feel insulted to see their children go "Nope, you got it wrong, let's do it this way" but it's also hugely insulting to young people, and also just plain childish, to go "HAHA YOU HAVE RUINED THE WORLD AND I LIVED IN THE BEST TIME POSSIBLE WHICH I'M TAKING SOME SORT OF MORAL CREDIT FOR DESPITE IT BEING COMPLETELY COINCIDENTAL". At heart it is mastubatory and self-aggrandising and completely unhelpful in guiding the young.
 
So my snarky tone is a backlash against that sort of stuff, which is well and alive at PA, rather than a well-balanced depiction of how I feel about the whole issue.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2010 at 07:42
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Finnforest: I find your words completely agreeable and palatable, free as they are of the superior, self-centred, "transference-of-own-shortcomings-in-dealing-with-change-into-blame-on-the-next-generation-not-listening-to-you-because-they-are-all-stupid-and-inferior" rubbish I was detecting in some of the other posters. I am only 29 but I am determined never to become one of those frozen-in-time older people whose potential to hand down wisdom is completely neutralised by their insistance that only time travel to the past can fix the problems of today.
 
I don't think the old are irrelevant at all, but I find WAY too many older people sitting about on the internet going "BLAH BLAH BLAH, EVERYTHING IS RUBBISH EXCEPT ME". Young people seem to be far less likely to burst into rants about how awful everything old is. That is because they are not experiencing the pain of seeing their values and culture "corrected" by the next generation. The old feel insulted to see their children go "Nope, you got it wrong, let's do it this way" but it's also hugely insulting to young people, and also just plain childish, to go "HAHA YOU HAVE RUINED THE WORLD AND I LIVED IN THE BEST TIME POSSIBLE WHICH I'M TAKING SOME SORT OF MORAL CREDIT FOR DESPITE IT BEING COMPLETELY COINCIDENTAL". At heart it is mastubatory and self-aggrandising and completely unhelpful in guiding the young.
 
So my snarky tone is a backlash against that sort of stuff, which is well and alive at PA, rather than a well-balanced depiction of how I feel about the whole issue.
 
 

Textbook:  First off, I commend you for being a teacher, I think that is great!  I understand and agree that sometimes the older folks tend to come off as condescending when we talk to youth about this generation’s problems.  I’m sure I’ve done it at times.  I certainly do pine for elements of the past but speaking for myself, I do not do so to spite young people, or to stick it in their face how much their lives suck. 

 

When I look at the young folks in my life whom I love, it is about genuine concern.  I honestly feel bad that they are missing out on a certain security that was present in my childhood neighborhood, school, and friends.  Certainly the 70s had problems for the adults of the time, but they were not visited on the kids to any degree approaching what we have today.  I could go on about these differences but that’s another thread.  So I just feel a bit bad for kids whom seemed to be getting short-shifted on a certain experience that was very positive, at least it was for me.  But it’s not meant in some malicious way, I assure you.  If anything it is about me blaming *my* generation for things we have done or failed to do.  In some ways I feel we, and the culture in general, have stolen or messed with what should be a very special time in life.  It’s not about time travel or turning the world back into The Brady Bunch or the WW2 generation, just about recognizing what values from every generation have worth, and trying not to lose them.   This generation will have the same challenge when their kids begin to view them as old!   ;)

 

So the goal as I see it is for the old to relay wisdom to the young and to help make them feel more secure, less burdened by the bad news in the media, more loved, and more respected, all in a culture that can be quite fragmented and cold.  And in return the young can share with us their amazing skills at adapting, resilience, enthusiasm, and hope.  We really have to face the future together.  I think we can all agree that we are stronger if we use each other’s strengths as opposed to viewing them with suspicion or skepticism.  Smile

Best of luck with your teaching mission!! 
 
Edit:
 


Edited by Finnforest - June 11 2010 at 09:34
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2010 at 00:08
Thanks for the invite Finn but I don't think I'll be dropping by to that thread. As you might have gathered from tone here I'm a bit of an attack dog when it comes to philosophy/debate and I'm pretty sure I would just upset myself and others. It's nothing specific to this topic, I've chosen not to participate in the general discussion folder of this forum at all.
Back to the topic: Basically life is about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and this old/young thing is one very clear illustration of that.
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Points: 251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2010 at 04:07
Teenagers - bring back National Service LOL

On a more serious note, most folks attention spans are fairly short, teenagers generally more so. Adults that I play prog to are exactly the same. As for music without lyrics not being music, whoever said it obviously didn't think before they opened their trap! Nothing unusual there Evil Smile
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Points: 1584 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2010 at 13:26
A relatively high number of people at my high school know stuff like Dream Theater and Pink Floyd, but other than that there's not much progressiveness.  I do have a friend though that loves Transatlantic, Morse, Spock's Beard, Mars Volta, Opeth, and stuff like that. I'd say I'm the only fan of 70's prog at my school though.
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