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seventhsojourn 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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 Posted: March 07 2010 at 18:36 |
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Thanks Raff, When I came to PA I thought I would be posting the occasional review and maybe talking some bull on the forums. I actually astonish myself with the things I'm revealing about my personality bit by bit in such a public place... but it just seems to pull you in.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: April 16 2010 at 12:19 |
"Number of cannonballs used in the Battle of the Alamo currently owned by singer Phil Collins: 18" Harper's Index 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 02:52 |
 The Quiet One wrote:
It's been discussed before many times.
ProgArchives does not add artists/bands if they haven't released a single Prog release, no matter how connected with other Prog bands. Steve Hackett, Mike Rutherford, Peter Gabriel, Tony Banks and Ant Phillips have all released Progressive(or related) solo material to justify their entry.
Phil Collins is a POP artist, a good one? Maybe, you won't find love for him in the site though haha. |
The best answer to this discussion is this from above, enough said and a big NO from me.
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GentleGiant
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 09 2006
Location: PantagrueLand
Status: Offline
Points: 445
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 04:05 |
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I think
the main activity here would be brought to the hundreds of prog bands that
are not yet in PA and not wasting time with pop
artists or related.
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BeGiantForADay
"This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix."
http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14122
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 06:40 |
Phil Collins is "POPPING" up again.... I can't find any single song in his solo production that can be defined prog, unless we consider "In the air tonight". Can Michael Jackson be considered "Metal" for the solo played by Eddie Van Halen on Beat it? If Phil Collins can stay on PA, why not Sting or Cindy Lauper ?
Joking apart, The Beatles are proto-prog or prog related, Sir McCartney is not. The same I think applies to Phil Collins.
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 06:52 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Phil Collins is "POPPING" up again.... I can't find any single song in his solo production that can be defined prog, unless we consider "In the air tonight". Can Michael Jackson be considered "Metal" for the solo played by Eddie Van Halen on Beat it? If Phil Collins can stay on PA, why not Sting or Cindy Lauper ?
Joking apart, The Beatles are proto-prog or prog related, Sir McCartney is not. The same I think applies to Phil Collins. |
Good answer Octopus -4 
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 12:36 |
I agree with the majority here and especially with Raff and Octopus-4 (what happened to the former 3 btw ?).
I don't see any reason to include him here and I also had Face value on vinyl (and never thought to get the CD cause it's not that good IMO) and even "In the air tonight" is not very proggy to my ears.
I think the example of McCartney is a very good one and shows it is not personaly against PC.
However, I don't realy understand the strong emotions here. I surely will not comit suicide if he will be added
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omri
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 20:31 |
omri wrote:
I agree with the majority here and especially with Raff and Octopus-4 (what happened to the former 3 btw ?).
I don't see any reason to include him here and I also had Face value on vinyl (and never thought to get the CD cause it's not that good IMO) and even "In the air tonight" is not very proggy to my ears.
I think the example of McCartney is a very good one and shows it is not personaly against PC.
However, I don't realy understand the strong emotions here. I surely will not comit suicide if he will be added |
I had a copy of Face Value on cassette. I bought the CD and within two weeks I was flooded out of my house (31" of water). I'm blaming Phil for no non-coincidental reason.  Face Value has some good moments and a rather lame version of Behind The Lines. I think In The Air is fairly decent for a commercially successful song.
Edited by Slartibartfast - April 22 2010 at 20:33
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 1072
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:02 |
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive! But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN? There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans  . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 35951
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:24 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive!
But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site.
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN?
There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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Yes, let's have fun! Spinal Tap for PA! (and we could move this topic to the Just for Fun forum for fun, or better yet, how about a new PA category called Just for Fun for Phil Collins?). 
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:27 |
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I think we should add it just for the 1 stars all his albums would end up being rated. I would find great satisfaction in that
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:01 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive! |
I honestly don't believe Trevor Rabin has released a single Propg or Related album AS A SOLO ARTIST, so no reason to add him.
RoyFairbank wrote:
But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site. |
The same can be said about The Wings, some Bee Gees albums as Odessa (Which is even conceptual), and nobody even dreams about adding them.
I see more merit in troubadours as Cat Stevens (Hey, he played with Wakeman and Peter Gabriel) or Al Stewart, who released iconic albums, but simply not Prog or related so they are not here.
Bat Out of Hell (Known as Wagnerian Rock) and the operatic performances of Meat Loaf are light years closer to Prog than any Phil Collins albums, but still have been rejected (even by me, a hardcore fan of Steinman's compositions)
If we add an artist as Phil Collins who as a SOLOIST never recorded a single Progressive Rock song, then there would be no excuse to reject anybody, and we would cease to be ProgArchives to be a bad copy of Allmusic.
RoyFairbank wrote:
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN? |
I believe we have fun with Progressive Rock.
If I want to talk about other genres, I go to the adequate forum.
RoyFairbank wrote:
There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple.
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The problem is that it's not one artist, it's our credibility.
We are the number one site in the net because people trust us, if we add whoever we want just for fun, we will cease to be a reliable site, people will stop visiting us and we will loose sponsors who keep this site alive.
We already had problems with other artists, but Phil Collins AS A SOLO ARTIST is the antithesis of Progressive Rock.
Iván
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:27 |
Sorry Ivan but you know I will dispel your opinion on excluding Collins as not making sense.
Until PA recognise Phil Collins as a necessary ingredient to this site even if for Face Value alone then Max and the site have missed the boat. An exception should be made for Face Value. Ignoring him as a member of Progressive influence alone is tantamount to a criminal record ( Sorry Rick Wakeman  )
I have been a member here for 6 years ( same as you) and I still believe this is PA's biggest failing from a credibility standpoint. All his work with Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, Brand X etc etc etc etc
Phil should be given the red carpet treatment, after all he has more prog leanings in his left toe than any of us could ever dream of.....even in San Antonio 
Bring on new debates, as long as I am alive I will challenge this terrible exclusion.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:35 |
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I remember I lived with this chilean b*tch of a host mother who would BLAST phil collins solo work on her goddamned 5.1 system up until 2 am and she would sing along to the BANAL lyrics that she didn't even understand. A pox upon her hateful house and no to solo phil in PA.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:42 |
Chris S wrote:
I have been a member here for 6 years ( same as you) and I still believe this is PA's biggest failing from a credibility standpoint. All his work with Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, Brand X etc etc etc etc
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I believe it doesn't make sense to add an artist as Prog soloist for his work with others.
His work with Hackett, Brand X, etc etc may be Prog or Prog Related, but you are talking about the work of Hackett, Gabriel, Brand X (as a band), not the work of Phil Collins, he was only a band member or a session musician hired by other artists who wrote Prog albums.
But if he's got to be added as Phil Collins in ProgArchives, IT SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVELY FOR HIS SOLO WORK, and none of his albums has the slightest relation with Progressive Rock
Should Randy Jackson (The judge of American Idol) be here, because he was the several years bass player of Jean Luc Ponty and Journey?
Brand X, Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, are already here, because they released Prog albums, Phil Collins has not done that, so he should not be here until he releases a Progressive Rock album.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2010 at 23:52
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:53 |
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^ Well I beg to differ on Face value alone so we can debate ad nauseum.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:01 |
I respect your opinion, even when I differ totally, as the vast majority of the Prog Rock community.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 23 2010 at 00:04
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:57 |
^ Define......" Prog Rock Community"....... , cyber self affirmation???? Please let's not go there.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:22 |
Chris S wrote:
^ Define......" Prog Rock Community"......., cyber self affirmation???? Please let's not go there. |
1.- Check all the Prog sites...Is he listed as Prog in the majority..Minority...None?
As far as I know only in Progressiveears along with Simon Collins (Yes his son and I can't guess why), and with this description:
"Sadly misunderstood, Once great drummer of Genesis and Brand X, forsook both for pop oriented music "
2.- Check the majority opinion in Prog Archives, there are plenty threads
3.- Visit other forums and sites and check the opinions of the people about Phil Collins.
4.- Read the replies in this thread alone.
5.- Please tell me the name of a publication or an article where HIS SOLO material is credited as Progressive Rock.
And please, don't tell me this is the only site you visited and that you never read the general opinion about him, some people respect him as a good solo artist (I don't, I consider his music boring and I'm honest to acept it), but the general opinion is not only that he's not Prog, but most of the posts I read during my life, blame him for Genesis debacle.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 23 2010 at 01:36
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b_olariu
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 5532
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Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:44 |
This discussion gets boring and nowhere, what is the point after all. Anyway I'm agree with Ivan 100%. Chris made some unremarkable points lately here. I want to know how long will this go
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Phil Collins and here's why. . . . .
