rushfan4 wrote:
I can't find any single song in his solo production that can be defined prog, unless we consider "In the air tonight". Can Michael Jackson be considered "Metal" for the solo played by Eddie Van Halen on Beat it? If Phil Collins can stay on PA, why not Sting or Cindy Lauper ? 
, cyber self affirmation???? Please let's not go there.
Phil Collins and here's why. . . . .
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65173
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 23:05
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Phil Collins and here's why. . . . .
Posted By: BroskyGene
Subject: Phil Collins and here's why. . . . .
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:25
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He was the drummer for the band's early prog success. Isn't that enough? How is it that this site has an individual profile for 4 members of the "Lamb" line-up, and yet leaves out the very man who sat behind the drum-kit for Supper's Ready? Looking at the sites review for early Genesis, there's some vitrol dished out at Collins for the direction the group took after the Hackett departure, vitrol that is unfairly put out. Tony Banks has stated numerous times that his favorite album from the band was the Duke album, while Mike Rutherford has made no secret that the self-entitled album was, in his opinion, among bands greatest work.
Surely, the "And Then There Were Three" album was the one where Collins first became a prominent songwriter among the by then trio. So it would be natural for those who despise Genesis' later work to blame Collins for a song like Follow You/Follow Me. That was a well-known Rutherford written and composed song that, while yes, left its prog root and drew in a different audience, was not the result of Phil Collins leadership. Why Collins takes so much heat for that I have no idea. Phil should have acknowledgement discussing his Genesis career, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to acknowledge a solo album or two, like "Face Value". After all, Peter Gabriel's non-Prog "So" is acknowledged on this site. It can't hurt.
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Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:31
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It's been discussed before many times. ProgArchives does not add artists/bands if they haven't released a single Prog release, no matter how connected with other Prog bands. Steve Hackett, Mike Rutherford, Peter Gabriel, Tony Banks and Ant Phillips have all released Progressive(or related) solo material to justify their entry. Phil Collins is a POP artist, a good one? Maybe, you won't find love for him in the site though haha.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:34
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Phil Collins will be here over Ivan's dead body. Plain and simple. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:42
No love from Truth 
 ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:42
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it is possible part of the reason Phil isn't here is due to prejudice, but the real answer remains: the vast bulk of his solo work was not progressive. It has little to do with whether or not ATTWT or Duke are excellent albums (which they are) and more to do with material. Hackett, Gabriel and Banks [his debut at least, and projects as Seven] have all produced albums that are clearly forms of Artrock. Phil could, on paper I suppose, fit in ProgRelated but again it goes to material-- simply having been a part of a prog band, even one as important as Genesis, isn't grounds - musically speaking - for addition. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:57
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Phil Collins solo albums are a poppified form of Jazz Rock. That is one reason why he was able to do a live Phil Collins big band tour/concert/album. ....... I refuse to get suckered into this argument again. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:21
Too late.   Look I ordered a copy of his first album on CD last year and then my house got flooded out within a few days of its arrival. 'Nuff said.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:30
"You're blaming me?!"  |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:33
That is a very accurate picture. And to respond to answer your question: NO!
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:51
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Here we go again.... ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 22:58
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...and again.....I hope that this argument though gets raised and raised again ad infinitum until Collin's is recognised here for Face Value alone.
One word.......Credibility
 ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:48
| Let's make sure this debate focuses on the music alone. No personal attacks on the artist please. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:22
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Phil's solo work, good or not, is a far remove from prog: even Peter Gabriel's solo work is far more progressive. In my humble opinion, his presence in at least three bands which are included here (Flaming Youth, Genesis and Brand X) does not justify an inclusion of his solo albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 04:11
Want to take him into Crossover for an eval? ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 04:24
and with due respect to previous evaluators, PC, was declined. An enormous figure for progressive music and I enjoy seeing new threads from new members regarding this issue as a current debate. Hard to ignore! ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:51
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This one just runs and runs I love the debut, Face Value - an incredible emotional statement following the breakup of his first marriage. The second is a good pop album, and the rest I really don't care much for without actively disliking them. I love Collins era Genesis, and I think the man is a great talent, decent bloke, who deserves our admiration rather than approbium. However, solo stuff prog or prog related? If yes, then all will be rushing out to get the dictionary definitions revised  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:59
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While I've never agreed about the hatred heaped upon Phil Collins (as I said before, people should avoid wasting energies on stuff like that), I am not really sure adding him would be a good idea. For one, we should start considering the addition of other famous musicians that were once members of prog bands (one name for all: Lemmy), and then, personally, I don't find a whole lot of prog-relatedness in his music, even in Face Value (which I used to own on vinyl, so I'm not biased against it). However, I am well aware that prog-relatedness is very much a matter of point of view, and for some Face Value can be much more prog-related than, say, the album I have in my avatar. The biggest problem, in my opinion, would be the violent reactions from part of the membership, which would probably result in abuse being heaped upon the Admins (who are in charge of PR) and the person responsible for the addition. Unfortunately, there are people here who just seem unable to remember that we are not dealing with politics or religion here, but with music - something that should unite us, not divide us. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:03
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I believe that mailto:M@x - M@x has specifically listed Phil Collins as the one and only pariah that should never set foot in PA as a solo artist, so even if the admins were somehow persuaded to add him, it isn't going to happen without persuading mailto:M@x - M@x as well. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:05
Well, I don't believe that M@x has done so out of hatred for Phil Collins, but rather because - as we say in Italian - he 'knows his chickens', and realizes the Admin Team would bear the brunt of the addition. I still have nightmares about the Iron Maiden addition, by the way . |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:08
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I think that a new genre needs to be added to PA titled Bands Added Just To Stop The Endless Debates That Go On and On and On and On and Re-rear Their Ugly Heads Every Six Months or So. This category would include Phil Collins, Boston, Toto, Judas Priest, Yngwie Malmsteen, Stratovarius, and every other band that we know who they are that fit this category. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:10
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To save room on the home page that genre can be called Bands Added To Save Bandwith. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:13
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Or "Fine, You Win, They Are Here". -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:17
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Or, if you like, The Let All Hell Break Loose category! Oh, btw, Scott, I'm deep into reviewing that Sylvan album you like so much ... |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:24
What's this huge obsession with adding PR artists??? There are plenty of full-fledged prog bands out there that are still not included on this site. I saw PR oughta be closed for new additions until we run out of real prog bands to add. 
------------- 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:30
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The problem is that time is lost to adding new bands because of the constant, non-stop debates over the prog-related artists that keep re-occurring over and over and over and over and over again. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:34
Several years ago, the (then) admin team and mailto:M@x - M@x agreed that the solo work of any artist whose band is listed in a prog category could be added to prog related (or a full prog category of course if justified). When we agree that policy, Collins was held up as one of the very rare examples of where his solo discography was generally recognised as being far removed from prog. He was therefore quoted as the sole exception to the policy. This was done in a sort of light-hearted way at the time, intended more than anything else to recognise the controversy such an addition would cause.
While I don't speak for the rest of the admin team, I don't think anything he has released since (has he released anything recently?) would change that view, so his chances of being admitted as prog related are, I would think, doubtful at best.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:56
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^
Such a pity. I personally think Max and the Admin team are way wrong on this one but I do enjoy fresh debates on the matter.
For Absent Friends
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: BroskyGene
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:30
So, basically when the admin team agreed that the solo work of ANY artist whose band was listed in a prog category could be added, they decided to shun Phil out for his non-proggy solo work and created a loophole now known as the sole exception to the policy, for the sole purpose of keeping him out of the archive on the site.
Right, well let's take a look at another prog group. YES. We all know of their work in the 70's. Their work in the 80's was far different than the decade before mentioned, and thus Trevor Rabin, who seems to take much of the grunt for their change in direction, is not listed in any prog category. And for good reason. He had no place in the prog years of YES. He wasn't there for TFTO, Relayer, Close To The Edge, etc. Regardless of what peoples opinions of 80's YES were, and still are, Trevor Rabin, as before mentioned, didn't have a place in 70's YES. He is a more suitable "exception to the rule".
Phil Collins is not a Trevor Rabin.
The man was there for Foxtrot. He was there for Nursery Cryme. He was there for Selling England. He was there for The Lamb. Songs like "The Musical Box", "Watcher Of The Skies", "Supper's Ready" and "In The Cage" do not exist without the wrongful exception to the rule, Mr. Phil Collins. And that shouldn't be ignored.
Yea, Sussudio, You'll Be In My Heart, & Two Hearts are far from Prog. The same can be said for Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer, Shock The Monkey, and Big Time. If the album that holds "Games Without Frontiers" or "Intruder" can be recognized, then so should the album that holds "In The Air Tonight" or "The Roof Is Leaking".
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:00
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Both Gabriel and Collins must be evaluated on the merits of the albums put out under their respective names. Personally, I don't think Collins' "solo" career holds a candle to Gabriel solo in terms of overall progressiveness, but it doesn't really matter because if Collins gets included it should be based on the merits of his own "solo" work. Gabriel's solo-work is pretty irrelevant to Collins inclusion. A strong case should be built for why one thinks the music of Collins is deserving of PA inclusion. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: February 23 2010 at 17:43
What do you mean? I'll add Phil Collins in Eclectic Prog right now! Oh, and...only two pages for a Phil Collins thread? Shame on you, Prog Archives  Also, he played in my favourite band. ------------- |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 18:18
if their music meets the criteria set forth for addition to prog related. Simply being in a prog band doesn't get your solo work included, as I discovered a while back. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: March 06 2010 at 16:36
| After reading the post I went to see if Phil has been added or not and I'm happy to see him missing. I agree with most of the friends here about "Face Value" being a great album. About his story with Genesis, we are used to review albums, not biographies, that's why I don't see a reason to include him. In addition he would fall in the alphabetical order between Collegium Musicum and Colosseum. Let him stay in the pop charts, please. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 06 2010 at 19:08
 ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 06 2010 at 19:31
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 03:52
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i LOVE the Phil Collins ballad One More Night espessialy on he's last concert (chils) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATC9WEJpoXg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATC9WEJpoXg |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 05:28
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A couple more suggestions for the new genre:
The 'When Hell Freezes Over' genre
The 'Over My Dead Body' genre.
Or The 'Phil Collins' Genre. (Pop) ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 16:22
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If this website doesn't add Phil Collins soon, this forum and its people have just failed. Failure. Fail. ------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 18:06
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Hi Brosky,
Welcome to the site... and you are genuinely welcome. The trouble with us newbies is that we tend to ask questions that have been debated here before, sometimes on many occasions. Some of the members like to have their little jokes and I've been on the receiving end myself. No need to take it personally.
I don't want to be accused of being the Prog-Mafia (as Micky calls say), but is it any wonder Brosky hasn't been back here since 21st February? It's not big making fun of new members. How about putting an arm round newbies, instead of chasing them off.
On topic... I'm not really familiar with Phil's solo albums, but if I can widen the debate a little... When did Justin Hayward and John Lodge solo albums get added? I don't want to bring up that ''if so-and-so is here etc'' argument, but they don't even have artist pages. As solo artists, should they not have seperate bios? I've actually been thinking of starting an ''Add Justin Hayward'' thread but I didn't because even I don't think he should be here (even although Nostradamus is more prog than anything on Blue Jays). Can I add Justin's entire solo output? Can I add Mike Pinder and Ray Thomas then? I certainly don't want to upset the person who added these albums, I own copies myself and now they're here I'll review them. Just trying to make the point that we shouldn't be laughing at other people's opinions.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 18:16
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 18:23
Very good post, Chris - I agree 100% on your thoughts about scaring newbies off. Unfortunately, it seems to happen more and more frequently, especially at certain times of the day, when some of the more outspoken (understatement of the century) members are online. As regards the examples you brought up, I am not familiar with what happened, but believe there is an explanation as to the presence of solo albums without separate entries. Phil Collins, unfortunately, is a rather unique case - an extremely divisive artist, and one whose addition would cause much more trouble than it's worth. Personally, I don't see the prog in his solo output, but would not raise a stink - not even for a second - if he was added - I believe I'm smarter than that. However, other people would not be so reasonable - believe me when I tell you I know what I am talking about, since I've got the scars to show for it. |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: March 07 2010 at 18:36
| Thanks Raff, When I came to PA I thought I would be posting the occasional review and maybe talking some bull on the forums. I actually astonish myself with the things I'm revealing about my personality bit by bit in such a public place... but it just seems to pull you in. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 16 2010 at 12:19
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"Number of cannonballs used in the Battle of the Alamo currently owned by singer Phil Collins: 18" Harper's Index  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 02:52
The best answer to this discussion is this from above, enough said and a big NO from me.
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Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 04:05
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I think
the main activity here would be brought to the hundreds of prog bands that
are not yet in PA and not wasting time with pop
artists or related.
------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 06:40
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Phil Collins is "POPPING" up again.... Joking apart, The Beatles are proto-prog or prog related, Sir McCartney is not. The same I think applies to Phil Collins.
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 06:52
Good answer Octopus -4
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Posted By: omri
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 12:36
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I agree with the majority here and especially with Raff and Octopus-4 (what happened to the former 3 btw ?).
I don't see any reason to include him here and I also had Face value on vinyl (and never thought to get the CD cause it's not that good IMO) and even "In the air tonight" is not very proggy to my ears.
I think the example of McCartney is a very good one and shows it is not personaly against PC.
However, I don't realy understand the strong emotions here. I surely will not comit suicide if he will be added ------------- omri |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 20:31
I had a copy of Face Value on cassette. I bought the CD and within two weeks I was flooded out of my house (31" of water). I'm blaming Phil for no non-coincidental reason.  Face Value has some good moments and a rather lame version of Behind The Lines. I think In The Air is fairly decent for a commercially successful song.------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:02
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somebody said about Trevor Rabin- he's way rockier than Phil and he was a member of Yes--- and by the way, 80s Yes is soooo progressive! But anyway, Phil's solo albums are most satisfying, if unspectacular. It would be fun to have them on this site. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE FUN? There is no great bandwidth demand for adding any one artist, its certainly not going to be a slippery slope like some are characterizing it, as long as this place is frequented by Prog fans  . Its not the supreme court- "precedents" and "objectivity" aren't part of it guys, its up to us, its subjective and semi-arbitrary. If someone cited Phil Collins in a lame attempt to justify Michael Jackson we could simply say; your off your rocker. Simple simple simple. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:24
Yes, let's have fun! Spinal Tap for PA! (and we could move this topic to the Just for Fun forum for fun, or better yet, how about a new PA category called Just for Fun for Phil Collins?). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:27
| I think we should add it just for the 1 stars all his albums would end up being rated. I would find great satisfaction in that |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:01
I honestly don't believe Trevor Rabin has released a single Propg or Related album AS A SOLO ARTIST, so no reason to add him.
The same can be said about The Wings, some Bee Gees albums as Odessa (Which is even conceptual), and nobody even dreams about adding them. I see more merit in troubadours as Cat Stevens (Hey, he played with Wakeman and Peter Gabriel) or Al Stewart, who released iconic albums, but simply not Prog or related so they are not here. Bat Out of Hell (Known as Wagnerian Rock) and the operatic performances of Meat Loaf are light years closer to Prog than any Phil Collins albums, but still have been rejected (even by me, a hardcore fan of Steinman's compositions) If we add an artist as Phil Collins who as a SOLOIST never recorded a single Progressive Rock song, then there would be no excuse to reject anybody, and we would cease to be ProgArchives to be a bad copy of Allmusic.
I believe we have fun with Progressive Rock. If I want to talk about other genres, I go to the adequate forum.
The problem is that it's not one artist, it's our credibility. We are the number one site in the net because people trust us, if we add whoever we want just for fun, we will cease to be a reliable site, people will stop visiting us and we will loose sponsors who keep this site alive. We already had problems with other artists, but Phil Collins AS A SOLO ARTIST is the antithesis of Progressive Rock. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:27
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Sorry Ivan but you know I will dispel your opinion on excluding Collins as not making sense.
Until PA recognise Phil Collins as a necessary ingredient to this site even if for Face Value alone then Max and the site have missed the boat. An exception should be made for Face Value. Ignoring him as a member of Progressive influence alone is tantamount to a criminal record ( Sorry Rick Wakeman
 )I have been a member here for 6 years ( same as you) and I still believe this is PA's biggest failing from a credibility standpoint. All his work with Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, Brand X etc etc etc etc
Phil should be given the red carpet treatment, after all he has more prog leanings in his left toe than any of us could ever dream of.....even in San Antonio
 Bring on new debates, as long as I am alive I will challenge this terrible exclusion. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:35
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I remember I lived with this chilean b*tch of a host mother who would BLAST phil collins solo work on her goddamned 5.1 system up until 2 am and she would sing along to the BANAL lyrics that she didn't even understand. A pox upon her hateful house and no to solo phil in PA. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:42
I believe it doesn't make sense to add an artist as Prog soloist for his work with others.
His work with Hackett, Brand X, etc etc may be Prog or Prog Related, but you are talking about the work of Hackett, Gabriel, Brand X (as a band), not the work of Phil Collins, he was only a band member or a session musician hired by other artists who wrote Prog albums. But if he's got to be added as Phil Collins in ProgArchives, IT SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVELY FOR HIS SOLO WORK, and none of his albums has the slightest relation with Progressive Rock Should Randy Jackson (The judge of American Idol) be here, because he was the several years bass player of Jean Luc Ponty and Journey? Brand X, Hackett, Gabriel, Camel, are already here, because they released Prog albums, Phil Collins has not done that, so he should not be here until he releases a Progressive Rock album. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:53
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^ Well I beg to differ on Face value alone so we can debate ad nauseum. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:01
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I respect your opinion, even when I differ totally, as the vast majority of the Prog Rock community. Iván
-------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:57
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^ Define......" Prog Rock Community"....... ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:22
1.- Check all the Prog sites...Is he listed as Prog in the majority..Minority...None?
As far as I know only in Progressiveears along with Simon Collins (Yes his son and I can't guess why), and with this description:
"Sadly misunderstood, Once great drummer of Genesis and Brand X, forsook both for pop oriented music "
2.- Check the majority opinion in Prog Archives, there are plenty threads
3.- Visit other forums and sites and check the opinions of the people about Phil Collins.
4.- Read the replies in this thread alone.
5.- Please tell me the name of a publication or an article where HIS SOLO material is credited as Progressive Rock.
And please, don't tell me this is the only site you visited and that you never read the general opinion about him, some people respect him as a good solo artist (I don't, I consider his music boring and I'm honest to acept it), but the general opinion is not only that he's not Prog, but most of the posts I read during my life, blame him for Genesis debacle.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 01:44
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This discussion gets boring and nowhere, what is the point after all. Anyway I'm agree with Ivan 100%. Chris made some unremarkable points lately here. I want to know how long will this go |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 02:57
To call late Genesis a ' Debacle" makes me realize that even the most credible opinions here amount to " not too much"
The OCD behaviour of some to exclude ' Emotional" well known artists is a joke versus inclusion of newer unknown bands.
I won't relent on this subject nor will Ivan ( all credit to him), not while this site exists ( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll) ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:37
Well Chris, I don't believe Prog died in the late 70's, Prog entered in a crisis because the most representative Progressive Rock bands left Progressive Rock behind and started to release POP oriented albums in a valid (for them) attempt of making real money.
And that's OK, every musician or band has the God given right to release whatever they want, they also have the right to say Progressive Rock is crap and to thank Punk for shaking the musical tree and make bad bands (referring to Prog), fall like bad apples...(This was almost literally said by Phil Collins in Genesis a History). But don't expect Progressive Rock fans to still want to praise this guys or to believe Illegal Alien is a masterpiece. It's so clear that Prog didn't died in the 70's, that as soon as bands like Anglagard and Par Lindh Project started to release Prog albums again, the genre resurrected.
As soon as a band like Dream Theater (That I don't like), dared to blend Metal with Prog, they got new fans, as soon as an Alternative band like Radiohead dared to do something more adventurous and close to Prog, created interest in the people.
Also remember that the Prog fan (Unlike most mainstream fans) follows MUSIC, not NAMES, when Rick Wakeman released Six Wifes, everybody got the album, when he released Rhapsodies, not even his fans wanted to buy the album, it was Prog, yes, but it was sub-standard for him, and people didn't liked it.
For those of us who grew with the Prog masterpieces, albums like ABACAB or Shapes were a debacle, they were making music some of us hated. Except the Brazilian, I don't find any post Duke song I can listen, hat's my taste, you have to accept it.
Chris, if an emotional and well known artist makes a Prog album..great, we will add him, but if this same artist makes great or bad POP, they can't be added to a Progressive Rock site, because this is not the place for that music.
If an obscure or absolutely unknown artist makes Progressive Rock albums, it's our duty to add them to "The ultimate Progressive Rock Resource", that's why we are here, because of Progressive Rock, we want to make the biggest and most reliable PROGRESSIVE ROCK database. For other genres, there are other sites, I wouldn't ask to Punk77 to add "In the Court of the Crimson King", because Fripp is such a great artist, no..They are in the web to promote Punk, no matter how good Gabriel, Fripp, Emerson, Wakeman and whoever we admire is, Punk77 doesn't have to ad them, because they would loose credibility among their fans. The big emotional artist argument makes no sense, we are here for the music, not for the stature or importance oof the artist.
Nobody believes you have any interest, you are as stubbornn and me and you know whatyoun like, and I resopect that even if I disagree with your opinion.
Iván. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:17
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Oh add him now! If only for SuSudio... -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 13:14
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^ haha.....yes let's add his most pop single to PA.
Let me redefine my earlier statement, the perception was that prog had died in the late 70's with the advent of punk, new wave etc but some people believe even as 'prog purists' that Duke, Abacab and Shapes were great prog albums albeit more pop orientated as were 80's Camel etc.
Face Value was a IMO a solid prog offering for the early 80's.Perhaps as he we such an influential person for other artists releases also , i.e Daryl Stuermer he should be included into PA as an entry/Bio but with no albums listed but recognising his credentials..... Because the majority 'Prog Community' believe he does not exist, at the very least recognise his individual status. But again that would be against PA rules and regulations
Anyway I won't give up that is my OCD stubborness  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:03
I take a position to the "right" of you but not as "conservative" as Ivan. I think 80s Genesis is great Prog although the albums are littered with mediocre pop (oddly often worst than Phil Collins solo). The albums are contradictory and prog purists don't like that. But it was pretty common, you see elements of AOR and Pop in most albums from the 80s, even neo-prog like Pallas' The Sentinel. Of course Asia fuses Prog sensibilities with an overwhelming dose of pop and AOR. Genesis by these standards was quite progressive, with long compositions, instrumentals and interesting lyrics and concepts. Phil Collins brings to bear a lot of interesting musical textures, moods, considerate, oftentimes interesting lyrics and concepts. In this respect he is similar to Genesis, but I disagree that anything he did is Prog. Some albums are really, really good pop, such as Both Sides, and contributions like In the Air, Another Day in Paradise, I don't care anymore, etc. His No Jacket Required is quite blatant on the other hand. Nevertheless, it is still good. Overall, it would be nice to have him on the site, and I don't think anyone would complain too loudly about Genesis' drummer being on the site, it is after all, probably the biggest Prog band in history, or in the top two or three. We have all the non-prog albums by every artist on this site, why not the non-prog albums of one of their members? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:26
It would be nice to have many artists, I would love to review "Tea for the Tillerman" which is a fantastic album.................But it isn't Prog, so there's no place for him in Prog Archives, even if he recruited
But Prog Archives was created to have a Prog database, not a "nice" database.
I would, I consider there's no place for a Pop artist who never released a single Prog note (as a soloist), much less if he publicly declared his despise for Progressive Rock.
If he's here..Why not Billy Joel? Billly played in a Prog band called Attila (And he never said Prog was crap)..
Yes, Genesis is the best band in history according to my taste....but Genesis is already here.
This artists are he because even if they released 100 POP albums...They had at least one Prog album, so it's ok to add that album (and for that reason all his dischography.
But Collins doesn't have a Prog song, so why should we add the 100% non Prog dischography of an artist?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: omri
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:32
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I just wanted to tell Chris that I admire him for fighting for his ideas (which personally I don't agree with). I think everyone has the right to do that and if someone finds it boring he can move on to another thread.
I wish to support Ivan and claim that actually 2 songs of Billy Joel (Piano man & NY state of mind) are much more proggier than In the air tonight (IMO) and still I don't find Joel as a prog artist.
I realy feel the problem started with the adition of Supertramp who do not have even one full prog album (Dreamer, remember ?).
It's only my thoughts and it's ofcorse debateable. ------------- omri |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:56
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We all respect Chris fight, he believes Face Value is Prog, I disagree radically, but I wouldn't accept any disrespect for hs opinion and fight. As a fact,. this is one of the few times I'm in the majority, because my position is 100% purist and usually people don't agree with this, but since I'm here, my opinions ghave been accepted, somethimes I got what I believed and a lot more I lost, but the fun is in the debate.
I would never join a forum in which I say "The Musical Box is the best song ever" (what I believe) and as repkly I receive 100% of support...I want to see people saying that Close to the Edge is Better or even a Dream Theater song (Which I don't like), or even people saying The Musical Box is mediocre if they give reasonable arguments I can contradict or at least debate.
We are not here to add bands automatically, we are here to make a case, to support it, to deate with those who disagree and to accept what the administrators or the teams decide,.......The fun and the importance of a discussion forum...In discussion itself, and if somebody gets bored, there are always fan clubs where everything good you say about an artist will be cheered by the vast majority.
My full respect to Chris.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 13:26
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Phil Collins as a solo artist no way. But he is here in two bands Genesis and Brand X. Thus he is respected for the prog he did, at one time, play. I don't see Dennis DeYoung here either but Styx is here. I think these two are related for this argument. Phil has created no prog as a solo Artist and neither has Dennis so they do not belong. He as member of two groups did produce prog and both of the groups are here. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 17:43
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Actually, I think the issue that transcends whether Phil's albums are listed on Progarchives is whether the prog community matures beyond its quasi-mythological resentment of him. He is not some Judas figure, seriously, like so many portray him. Genesis under his co-stewardship radically departed from their modus operandi of former times, but not a single major Prog band of the 70s ended the 80s with the same record or style as they had in the 70s. 80s Genesis was an expression of the times, and one which, nevertheless, was as much designed to appeal to Prog fans as pop and AOR fans, with a significant portion of the actual time on every album being devoted to a type of slick but recognizable prog, (incontestably; 15 minutes even on the unpopular Invisible Touch, versus 9 minutes of Phil Collins solo type material, and well over 30 minutes of Prog on We Can't Dance). Phil Collins may have found a comfort zone in making Pop, but he is not to blame personally for what is clearly a historical and general shift in music away from not only Prog but even thoughtful music in the 80s and 90s. Its akin to burning cultural problems in effigy using Phil Collins as a straw man. I might add, that it would be futile to try to deny this overzealous sentiment in the prog community, its already been acknowledged and exhibited here on this thread. In the end, Phil Collins was an excellent Prog drummer, an emotional vocalist and wrote and composed a good deal of the material of classic Genesis; he even reunited with Genesis in 2006/2007 and was willing to do so with the classic lineup. Though it may be disappointing that he did not fight against the tide, perhaps it would be more mature if the Prog Community accepts his work in its context instead of holding what it could be against him. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 17:54
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^Again he is listed in the this site as a member of the two prog groups in which he created some great prog moments. If he had one or two solo albums that reflected either of the prog styles he was famous for in Genesis or Brand X no one and I mean no one including Ivan would object to his inclusion. I would even go so far as to be lenient enough that if he included one such song on each of his albums I would be open to it. For whatever reason Phil did not do this. Really, this is the only objection no matter what one feels about what happened to Genesis. There is no prog in his solo material. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 09:17
But if Phil were to like slip you some money under the table... The South Park guys like to poke phun at Phil.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 12:23
As a fact, Mike Rutherford is as responsible as Collins for the change in Genesis style, but nobody questioned his adition because of "Smallcreeps Day", a terrible album (In my opinion of course), but a Prog Related album anyway.
If Phil had something similar, well, I wouldn't say a word.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:29
I like Smallcreep. Mike went on to do much worse. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:43
Obviously you didn't read my post, I wasn't arguing for his inclusion, I was making a grand philosophical point about the role Phil Collins plays in Prog fan's explanation of Prog's historical decline.
*that is, historical context |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:49
I am another who agrees that Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day was very good ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:53
So eloquently put, and whilst I know you do not agree PC should be included I think your sentiments regarding this very important Prog pioneer should be applauded. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 14:07
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"perhaps it would be more mature if the Prog Community accepts his work in its context* instead of holding what it could be against him"
That is the statement I was referring too. I don't revile Phil at all. Sure I don't like some of the things he said in the past but all three remaining members were in agreement to the shift towards the pop style and there is nothing wrong with that. I am saying he is not being dissed here at all by not including his solo works.
Persuade us based on his solo material and why do you think it should be here in a progressive rock site that its only criteria for inclusion is your output has to have at least one prog album. This is not based on him, or his legacy as that has already been addressed by the inclusion of both Genesis and Brand X. This is based entirely on his solo output which is different than his work with those two bands. Another example I will give is a band Called Native Window. It contains all of the members of the present Kansas touring group sans Stave Walsh. I would never even consider them to be included here because they play a very pop/rock sort of music. It isn't bad but it isn't prog either. In your argument above it would be yes for inclusion it should based on their content as a whole. That is the point I am making. Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford , Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel all have recorded progressive rock albums in their solo catalogs and Phil did not. It is that simple. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 15:10
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^ It is simple as far as opinions go. I believe Face Value is a prog album, as was Shapes, Abacab and Invisible Touch whether they went in a pop/AOR direction or not. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 16:15
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Well, you can put me squarely in the middle of the road along with yellow stripes and dead armadillos regarding Phil's inclusion as a solo artist. He's already here in a big way. I think the album has its proggy moments. The rest of the catalog I honestly don't have any familiarity to comment on. The three Genesis albums Chris mentioned I do know, but I only have Abacab in my collection, which gets a lot of flak, but I still like it.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 16:34
Not less prog than Sledgehammer... ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 16:56
But Seriously, what kind of credentials/resume does one require to be admitted to the PA Hall of Fame apart from the opinion of what is and what is not a prog album. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 17:15
I think it is clear that the majority here would not agree with yours. Face Value is a good pop/rock album but nothing more in my mind. I don't hear anything remotely proggy/fusion sounding music that Phil had done before or anything that broke any new ground unless you think cymbal less drums did that.
As for the others you mentioned it is irrelevant to even debate them since Genesis would have here based on their albums from Trespass to Wind and Wuthering (I would go to Duke but some of us wouldn't) and these albumsand also including From Genesis to Revelation would have been included as well. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 17:57
wait, wait, wait a second... who cares about PC, YOU DON'T THINK GENESIS COULD BE INCLUDED WITH ABACAB TO WE CAN'T DANCE AS A SOLE BASIS? Just because you include a pop track on a prog album doesn't mean its a pop album. Look, maybe Shock Treatment and Punch And Judy didn't get to the top of the charts, but they were AOR songs no less. I dare you to deny those albums had major prog tracks; what about Home by the Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Domino, Fading Lights.... I mean... to start? And all the others which were hugely Prog but may have been slightly crossover. |
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:07
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Well, I don't hear prog in "Home by the sea" , sorry. ------------- omri |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 30 2010 at 10:53
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I'd always thought the idea of including Phil Collins on PA was ridiculous, but having seen this I'm starting to reconsider: Seems like a dead cert for Avant-Prog! |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: April 30 2010 at 11:32
is a rio-avant something over phill's ssstudio piece, something realy strange, and as far as I understand is something from eastern europe , language a la czech or serbian, russian. Is not Phill going mad, is that tune he is puted over Phils music is mad
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Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 01 2010 at 20:37
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Maybe we should create a sub-genre called Progressive POP especially for Phil. Hahaha No way.............. |