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Catcher10

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:44

rogerthat wrote:

First, there's strong bias for and against DT. Which is just as with any popular band that polarizes. The fans think the 'for' bias is absolutely justified and notice the 'against' bias...it works vice versa for non-fans. I say let things be as they are, there's nothing to fix.

Secondly, I cannot speak for others but I listen to every element of the music carefully so the implied question as to whether I would listen carefully if I don't like the lead singer does not hold good here. I don't think reviewers pre decide to give a rating to an album..except that they may have already evaluated it in their head and decided on whether it's a 3 star or 4 star album AFTER listening to it. I see nothing wrong with that.

Lastly, as Robert already said, you cannot eliminate some amount of bias in music reviewing because there are important subjective elements. It's not as subjective as it's sometimes suggested on the net but subjectivity is a given. The beauty and diversity of music arises from that everybody looks at it differently and attaches differing importance to different aspects. Let people speak their mind about an album so long as they don't get profane...let's not try to censor views just to appease fanboys because to my mind they will NEVER be appeased. Wink

I mean, a fanboy is bound to like a mediocre release of a band more than a casual fan and therefore bound to feel that that fan's review was harsh...if we start siding with the fanboy, we might as well abandon the reviewing process. Dead

Listen, I don't care if a reviewer gives a 1 or 5...whether its DT or Gentle Giant...I DON'T CARE! I personally do not look at the rating number because there is no criteria to arrive at a 1 or a 5, (or 3.5

), to my knowledge.

I do read the commentary because I want know what people think of a bands sound, writing, lyrics, package, structure....Basically aesthetics of the album...that pretty much tells me if they listened to the album in detail.

I agree with what others have said, if you give a 1 or 5, you better back it up with good reasoning and not just general..."yea I like it very much = 5"....." I hated it = 1"...it should come from an un-biased state of mind, the number rating that is.

I have NO issue with the 1 star rating on BC&SL...I personally think the commentary to me showed the reviewer did not get the jist of the album nor did he/she listen very closely. And if the answer to that is "yes I did.."...then I am fine with that also, it just means we do not hear the same things...Agree to disagree and I go on.....I'm happy with that.

rushfan4

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:44

The Quiet One wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The Quiet One wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

A Person wrote:

I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.

My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.

Like I said in my highly acclaimed review

, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.

If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.

If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed review, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you." Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars. If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.

I think the review should explain the reason of the rating, and not focus on the definition of the rating. If that were the case, everybody who rates a POP album by a Prog with more than 2 stars is wrong since they're not "Good Prog Rock release" or however it is. And I could go on with more examples.

Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews. This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines. It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion. If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple. And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off.

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:45

Or why Jampa17 likes to talk about DT in every thread he can

Catcher10

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:50

rushfan4 wrote:

Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews. This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines. It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion. If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple. And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off.

jampa17

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:50

Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Or why Jampa17 likes to talk about DT in every thread he can

I don't think it deserves a thread for that... I have time to do it and is the only band of I can speak properly... I'm quite an ignorant in all the advant/rio prog thing so... is that or bashing Pink Floyd...

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:53

rushfan4 wrote:

The Quiet One wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The Quiet One wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

A Person wrote:

I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.

My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.

Like I said in my highly acclaimed review

, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.

If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.

If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.

Trying to avoid that, because it's not something to discuss with me if not with an Admin or M@X.

I'll go back to your previous post when you said that I should give it a 2 stars because I said it's for fans of Systematic Chaos and Octavarium. I've also said in the review that Black Clouds was, imo, Dream Theater's poorest release, doesn't that count as "poor" which is the definition of 1 star? Does ''only for fans'' imply for fans of certain albums or the entire band?

With that you should notice that the rating system, at least imo, is rather flawed and while you should not ignore it completely, you can enhance it a bit yourself.

Edited by The Quiet One - March 02 2010 at 11:55

Raff

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Posted: March 02 2010 at 12:22

The Quiet One wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

bloody hell - can't we start a "why my reviews are better than yours" thread or something?

Or make polls of that for that matter: "Who's the better reviewer?"

I am, of course Tongue

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:19

The point of this thread has been summed up by Rushfan4. Some of us are not adhering to the rating structure that was put in place originally. 5 star ratings should be reserved for absolute genre classics, not for albums that we personally love and 1 star ratings should be reserved for albums that have no real worth to a specific genre. The Quiet one - I challenge you to explain to me why, relating to what I have said above, BC&SL rates 1 star. Your own words in this thread relating to the album lay bare any argument that you express now.

When I was a newbie here I rated a Tool album with 1 star and I bashed Metallica around a bit in my reviews - I'm not happy about what I did then because I was being really unfair to those who do like those two bands. Today I stay away from Bands that I don't like as far as reviews are concerned because to review them would be to swim in unfamiliar waters. I dislike Extreme / Tech Metal with a passion because I dislike grunting, groaning and screaming incessantly relating to vocals. I dislike what lies behind a lot of that music as well. It's however not for me to slate artists who have validity to others in review formats. I'm happy to bash those feelings out in a thread but not under the album review section.

I could start with Opeth by reviewing each of their albums with 1 star because that's what I personally think of them but would that make me a professional reviewer? - would that give me validity?

I was sidetracked by a very pleasant friendly wordwar relating to Mariah vs Tarja earlier in the thread and that's all it was. Mariah Carrey is a talented vocalist, undoubtedly, but she couldn't front Nightwish or Within Temptation. Lol - there I go again

King-by-tor - I was never banned from PA and nor am I a troll. I hope I'm not an idiot. Some guy joined PA and started defending my Stratovarius argument, if I recall - but he did so venemously and with some very colourful language. He was banned from PA. That incident caused me to stay away from the forums for a long long time because frankly I was embarrassed by the guy's tantrums. We friends now?

progkidjoel View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:36

DavetheSlave wrote:

The Quiet one - I challenge you to explain to me why, relating to what I have said above, BC&SL rates 1 star. Your own words in this thread relating to the album lay bare any argument that you express now.

He doesn't have to; he already wrote a review (which, if you remember, you created this stupid thread about) to justify his 1 star rating.
He doesn't need to justify his rating to your criteria, he didn't write the review to please you. I bet you don't care how many poorly justified 5 star reviews there are for BC&SL.

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:56

Progkidjoel - he can stand by his review - he probably will anyway. This "stupid thread" as you call it has generated 9 pages of healthy discussion.

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 03:01

Oh - and - I definately care about the five star ratings as they are as unjustified as a 1 star rating is for that specific album. Dream Theater has 2 albums that would qualify for a 5 star rating - BC&SL isn't one of them.

progkidjoel View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 04:36

DavetheSlave wrote:

Oh - and - I definately care about the five star ratings as they are as unjustified as a 1 star rating is for that specific album. Dream Theater has 2 albums that would qualify for a 5 star rating - BC&SL isn't one of them.

But would you make a thread complaining about a 5 star rating for an album?

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 04:54

I honestly don't know - I've only been back for three or four days and that 1 star rating caught my eye. I would like to think that I would. Five star ratings should be reserved, to my mind, for albums that are the peak of their genre. Albums that will stand the test of time and ultimately be up there with the top 20 or so in 5 or so years time.

I do have a problem with Bands that I don't think should be listed here in PA - I will give Sabbath Bloody Sabbath by BS a 5 star rating any time that I'm called on to rate that album but that becomes difficult wearing a Progarchives review hat. I can't justify changing hats as an album to me is what it is - a work of music.

Raff

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 06:50

DavetheSlave wrote:

I honestly don't know - I've only been back for three or four days and that 1 star rating caught my eye. I would like to think that I would. Five star ratings should be reserved, to my mind, for albums that are the peak of their genre. Albums that will stand the test of time and ultimately be up there with the top 20 or so in 5 or so years time.

You'd be surprised at how many people - on this site or elsewhere - consider Sabbath Bloody Sabbath a proggy album, or even one of the forerunners of prog-metal. Since music is not a hard science, most things are a matter of opinion, after all.

Ah, and since you asked Pablo (The Quiet One) to defend his DT review, why don't you do the same as regards your Lateralus review? There are plenty of Tool fans on this site, you know...

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 06:58

Raff - below is what I said earlier in this thread about my Tool review -

I could start with Opeth by reviewing each of their albums with 1 star because that's what I personally think of them but would that make me a professional reviewer? - would that give me validity.

chopper

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 07:00

Raff wrote:

I have also pointed out his one star review of Lateralus and it does kind of shoot his argument down in flames, but to be fair he has admitted this was done in his early days and that it was a bit of a mistake.

Raff

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 07:04

OK, sorry for not having read the whole thread, but I have limited interest in going through a slew of posts assessing the individual merits of the various DT members Wink

. Anyway, I agree with staying away from bands you don't like - it's far too easy to indulge in bashing when you really dislike something. As I said somewhere else, my only three one-star reviews are of albums by bands I love (Deep Purple and Blue Oyster Cult), so there can be no allegations of fanboyism in those cases Smile

Catcher10

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 09:52

Raff wrote:

so there can be no allegations of fanboyism in those cases Smile

EDIT.......fangirlism

But if a reviewer does not review artists he does not like, would that sway the whole ratings? I mean, I think you can still review an artists you don't like, you have to remove all bias from your head before pushing PLAY. Nobody here is gonna review Lady Gaga....but that would not be the same reason to not review a prog artist.

I welcome reviewers to write commentary about artists they don't listen to or don't like. Maybe they should begin the review by stating the fact......"I don't like this artist..." or "I don't listen to this artist regularly..." That would help me understand the commentary better if it is not a good one.

Edited by Catcher10 - March 03 2010 at 10:05

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 09:55

progkidjoel wrote:

But would you make a thread complaining about a 5 star rating for an album?

i propose that change the title of the thread, instead of music appreciation, for DT apreciation and complaints about ratings and reviews.

Kim?

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Posted: March 03 2010 at 10:42

DavetheSlave wrote:

5 star ratings should be reserved for absolute genre classics, not for albums that we personally love and 1 star ratings should be reserved for albums that have no real worth to a specific genre.

I feel that if what you are suggesting would be the case, all reviews of the same album would turn out to be the same? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

For me, the very fact that reviews and ratings are subjective is what makes them interesting. I like to compare views, look at the reviewers' tastes, if I see a one-star of an album I like, that might interest me to check out the reason behind it. The difference in taste certainly interests me.

When you are reading a collective site as this, you have to take more reviews into account, that's the point. I highly doubt that someone would refrain from buying an album just because of this one review. If they would, they may have had the misunderstanding that this review was being objective, which is certainly not the case, especially not on a site like this.

If you want more 'objective' reviews, go read magazines or 'official' blogs, more specialized stuff or whatever.

Look at the overall rating. That's what you can get as far as objectivity goes here, I think - it's the general opinion.

it has generated 9 pages of healthy discussion

To me, this discussion has not really been healthy. It is very old. I'm not very active, yet I've read discussions like this lots of times. And yet I'm contributing!

But it is funny to read!