Music Appreciation
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65331
Printed Date: November 30 2024 at 02:10
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Music Appreciation
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Subject: Music Appreciation
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:02
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I am a Dream Theater fanboy but then I am a fanboy of early Yes, early Genesis, Rush, Camel, Caravan, Riverside etc. Truth be told I am a fanboy of good music. I expect some very volatile answers to my post so don't be embarrassed to respond : )
The reason for my post here is that I just read a review for Dream Theater's Dark clouds and Silver Linings album and, to be honest, half an hour later I am still seething.
Someone who does not recognise good music for what it is should refrain from writing album reviews. No one can blame anyone for not liking a band or an album as that is a personal taste issue but to bash something that clearly has value, regardless of personal preferance, shows an inability to seperate the personal from the facts.
Had DCaSL been released as a debut album by any new Prog act it would have been very well received. It was released by Dream Theater and that is where the review and rating problems start. DT will probably never release another Images and Words purely because they have moved on. Anyone who feels that their latest offering is worth 1 or 2 stars should reconsider their own knowledge of prog music and should refrain from writing reviews - in the same way that anyone who gives 2112, Foxtrot or Brain Salad Surgery 1 or 2 star reviews should keep their reviews to themselves because they show that they don't really know what they are talking about. DCaSL is not a 5 star album - to many it may only warrant 3 - but please! A 1 star review from someone we recognise here as a prog reviewer? I am disappointed to say the least.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Replies:
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:09
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I believe the clouds are actually black, not just dark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman - No true prog fan would dislike Dream Theater.
And you may disappointed in us, but we're disappointed in you for making this thread. I think it evens out. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:14
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Henry - are you telling me that the album deserves a 1 star rating?
We are warned before using 5 stars - shouldn't the same apply to one star ratings. I reserve 1 star ratings for discs that I use as coffee cup coasters. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:32
If I needed a coaster, and for whatever reason had a copy of that album, I wouldn't refrain from using it as a coaster. Am I allowed to rate it 1 star now? |
DavetheSlave wrote:Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:47
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I see nothing wrong with the review you're referring to, I think it's a good one. I disagree with it, as it is the first DT album in years that I really enjoy, but that doesn't mean the reviewer is wrong. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:58
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A reviewer is wrong when he gives no credit for the obvious. Had he given a 2 star rating I would not have been prompted to respond as I have. A can personally hate Japanese cars but the second I trash them as having no merit then I am showing my lack of knowledge as well as my inability to judge. Whether I hate it or not is not the point. Whether it merits more than 1 star as a musical entity in this case is the point. No one who understands anything about music can state that that particular album is worth a one star rating. I hate Opeth with a passion but I cannot state that any of their albums rates a 1 star review. There is no way that musicians of the calibre of those in Dream Theater can put down tracks that have that little merit. Take the name Dream Theater out of the equation as that name seems to insense a lot of people here. Thank goodness that their fan base number is not equivalent to the number of members of PA. else they may well have ceased to exist.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:01
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I think I'd use the main disc as a coaster and keep the instrumental disc and covers disc around as a reminder to not buy the album again.
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:20
What's "obvious" to you probably isn't obvious to everyone else. Does that make you more correct? Perhaps other reviewers judge music on more than the calibre of the musicians (which I think for most music is a silly way to judge anyway), and instead judge on other aspects of the music: melodies, originality, creativity, compositional complexity, etc. Whatever qualities that make music good to them. I think the reviewer in question more than sufficiently explained why he felt the way he does, fully justifying the 1 star. It's not even that farfetched of an idea that BC&SL was a weak release. The general consensus seems to be that it's only average to good at best, so I don't know why it's shocking to see the occasional bad review. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:48
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I have not heard this Dream Theater album and it's not on top of my wishlist to hear it, but that does not matter. I think that anyone her has the right to give any album a one star rating, especially when this is accompanied by a good argumentation, regardless of the number of stars above his avatar. And there are more cases in which prog reviewers have very different opinions about an album. And if their ratings differ from the ones that I would give, it does not make them unworthy reviewers. But one thing is sure: the first step on the way to good judgment is reverting from fanboyism. ------------- 
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:48
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Had I been in a rush to go out to the music store and buy an album I would have disregarded BC&SL because of that review. That, to me, would have been criminal. It is not the best DT album out there but it is good. Sit down and analyse the melodies, the technicality, and the heart of the album and tell me honestly that you see a 1 star rating being warranted.
Dream Theater are leagues ahead of most prog metal acts out there as they have been since their inception. They have released no poor albums with the exception of their "Made in Japan" Deep Purple emulation.
What I dislike is the drivel that is being accepted with 4 to 5 star ratings today on PA under the prog metal heading when the poorest releases by Dream Theater are miles ahead and receiving low ratings.
Why must we compare DT's releases to their own previous releases without looking at the merits of each release as opposed to the other offerings being handed to us.
Be brave and tell me that musically BC&SL is a one star effort. Tell me that there are no melodies, there is no virtuosity, the songwriting is tragic- tell me those those things so that I can disregard anything you write in future.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 05:31
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People have different opinions to you. Get over it. ------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:34
| Would this thread not sit better in Reviews Discussion? |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:50
| In appreciating music, sometimes "one man.s food is another man's poison"-it has always been that way |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:09
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It probably would seventhsojourn but I wanted it to be noticed because it is a point sore to my heart. I've got nothing against the reviewer but I wish more care would be taken before both 5 star and 1 star ratings were dished out. I accept that people will differ in their preferences relating to anything - we all have preferences. I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective. I dislike Franz Liszt's music intensely but I would be a fool to rate it as a 1 given the criteria attached here to a 1 star rating. (I know Liszt's music is not here but I'm using that as an example). I would have to give a 4 if I were pressed. If a non reviewer here rated BC&SL a 1 then I would not complain but a reviewer should be able to be objective and should have an understanding of what he is reviewing. In this case the album speaks for itself - I don't have to defend it. To rate any album of DT a 1 - in fact to rate Foxtrot, Wish you were Here, In Abstentia - or any of those albums a 1 would tell me very quickly that the reviewer doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. We are here because we love music - irrelevantly of the fact that none of us loves all of music. I think that Stevie Vai's guitar style sucks but I would not rate him as less than a 4 star artist because that's what he is. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:12
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It is actually possible for Dream Theater to release an album that someone doesn't like. I don't know the review you're referring to but providing the reviewer gives valid reasons for giving 1 star and it's not just a "this album is sh*t" style rant, then it's not a problem. Musically speaking the album is good in that it's played well as you would expect but it is lacking in melody, something I find a lot in DT (and I do own the album). Take the opening of The Count of Tuscany for example - the vocal melody is basically following the chord changes.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:35
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Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA. Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. Now in regards to the particular review and reviewer, I do find his 1-star review particular odd for two reasons. For one, our tastes do seem to overlap quite a bit, so I find it hard to believe that someone who has similar musical tastes to me would dislike a band and album that I enjoy. Of course, this is not the first time that this has happened nor will it be the last, but it is still always somewhat complicated to understand. The second part that I have a problem with the 1-star review, is that the words that he has written in his review actually say 2-star or 3-star review to me. For one, he says that the music is good, which right there says 3-star. Secondly, he says that if you are a fan of DT's most recent albums then you will also like this album, thus meeting the PA definition for 2-Stars. Therefore, plain and simply his words don't match his rating. And with that I agree with DaveTheSlave, that as someone who has the standing of Prog Reviewer he should have taken better care in matching his rating to his review.DT is sort of an odd situation for many reasons due to their volatility amongst prog fans. I'll leave it at that. There are plenty of PAers who I would think would be huge DT fans based on their other musical tastes that for whatever their reasoning can't stand DT. And of course they also have a rabid fan base. Therefore, they get what are probably unnecessarily high markings from their fanbase, and yet, unnecessarily low markings from their haters. IMO, this is sadly due to the extremely high degree of different music that falls under the ProgArchives umbrella definition of prog. If you seriously step back and take a look at it, how in the world can music as diverse as Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Meshuggah fall under the same prog umbrella. Maybe I am wrong, but to my ear, these two musics have absolutely nothing at all in common. And of course the second thing that is funny about that is I do believe that neither bands groups of fans like Dream Theater. GY!BE fans think that they are too loud and too much w**kery and Meshuggah fans think they are too slow, boring and derivative. What a crazy world us proggers live in. ------------- 
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:54
It's quite a common practice here on PA to give 1- or 2-star ratings when an artist becomes too repetitive in the reviewer's opinion. The reviewers who are tagged as "Prog Reviewer" are no exception on this rule. Take for example Neal Morse's Lifeline-album. Some of those who have given 3, 4 or 5 stars to one of his earlier albums give Lifeline a low rating for this reason. If someone wants to cough up all the reviews which do not match the ratings (or the ratings of similar albums from the same artists) he will have some work to do... -------------
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:55
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Hm. Concerning BC + SL, it's an album I've heard twice, I don't remember thinking it was particularly bad. I'm probably not going to hear it again except out of curiosity. Now, would it be unfair to label an album you don't expect to want to hear again as a 1 regardless of whether you think it's a particularly bad album? Just musing on the ratings system, to be honest... where I don't think an album has a lot of objective interest or anything to really come back to, I find it hard to judge how to rate it when I don't think it's that bad. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:59
The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one. It cannot be proven or verified. You cannot be objective about your opinion. This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review." That doesn't make any sense. Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like? Here- I'll write one real quick: Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater. It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records. I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries. John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album. He plays more than one note. The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies. The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade. There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes. Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album. That is an objective review. Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever. Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron. The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity. If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful). There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star. But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details. If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:03
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By the way, rather than make a thread to pinpoint one review, there is already a thread to accommodate such discussion: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&PN=1 ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:10
Reviewing is not about being objective at all. It can't be objective. If it was objective, you were only allowed to describe what the album is and what is featured on the album, but not if it's done in a good way or if it's done in a bad way. Opinions are opinions, you can't change that. I personally don't see much good in Dream Theater, and I don't consider their music to be better than let's say three stars. This is mainly because of the wall of complicated stuff and over technical soloing etc. I hear no heart in the music. What I said is not meant to bash DT however. I can see why someone would rate DT albums 4 or 5 stars, as it in the end all comes down to tastes. If you disagree with someone, that's fine. This whole thread seems like a whole lot of fanboyism to me though. If someone would rate Pink Floyd's WYWH one star, that's fine with me. If he can give me some arguments for disliking the album I wouldn't mind it at all, even though I find it a 5 star album myself. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:26
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Dude, you are completely out of line. There is no such thing as good or bad music, and you are pretty ignorant if you don't think that. There is only WHAT YOU CONSIDER GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. What the hell gives you the right to say what is good and bad? People are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with them, but it doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong. I personally dislike Dream Theater. I find them cheesy and masturbatory. BUT I wouldn't dream of saying somebody is wrong for liking them. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:33
This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:43
From Merriam-Webster: Objectivity - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations Subjectivity- peculiar to a particular individual http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/personal - <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident> We're not talking about science or philosophy here. We're talking more about journalistic objectivity / subjectivity. It is simple enough. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:01
That doesn't contradict me at all. Yes, some people's background, experience, ideology, feelings, etc. may affect their view on a matter, but that doesn't mean that it happens in 100% of the situations. Nobody has ever demonstrated that. What I was contradicting was your verdict that "objective opinion" is an oxymoron (meaning that people's feelings, etc. always affect their view). See, it's simple. Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with you on most of what we're talking about is subjective opinion. Most, but not all. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:25
| What annoys me is when people give low or high ratings without real justification, it doesn't make for a very helpful review. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:32
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You like BC&SL. Some people do not. So what? ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:39
Yep, that's the real point here. There's nothing wrong with a one-star review providing the reviewer gives his or her reasons and it's not just a rant.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:40
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:45
| WOW! is it me or this thread is seriously focusing on me? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:48
You're a celebrity Pablo!  Tell 'em to quit hatin'.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:53
 Seriously, I don't understand people sometimes. I think they seriously prefer a 1 star without review, and not because of the weighting, simply because they can't see it being posted! haha....
Into more seriousness, did I really say the music in general was bad? I just said that it's the same ol' story, the musicians are fantastic, but like Ivan has mentioned in some of his reviews, that alone doesn't make a good record at all.
I did state clear that I was giving 1 star because I found BC&SL to be DT's poorest album.
I'm not sure why am I wasting my time here, though...
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:59
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I have to admit that I find this thread somewhat shocking in it's existence. With all the things in the world there are to get passionate about and all the things in the world to make a fuss about, a single 1 star review does NOT seem to fit into that area for me. Even as someone who loves this site and wants to see it thrive and exist for years to come, I don't see how a 1 star review should even matter. Read it, understand what they are saying. Move on? If you don't agree, great. There are other reviews that applaud the album. If you want to read about how good it is, then go there. There are people on this site who have different viewpoints, and as far as I am concerned, the more viewpoints there are on a single album, the better this site is, because it's providing more balanced information. To imply that a reviewer is clueless, doesn't know what is talking about, is being unfair, just because you don't like his rating, to me comes across as very crass and selfish. I get all your analogies about "I wouldn't rate this this way because of ____". But I disagree. Heck, in response to your first post, I'm still not sure if I would give Brain Salad Surgery two stars or three. Dose that mean that I am clueless? For sure, I understand it's relevance in the prog world, but if I ever reach the point where I'm writing a review about it, I will be writing it based on it's musical merits and how much it affected me. Should we all start giving Britney Spears a lot of applause because her albums are much loved and have influenced others? Popularity does not necessarily mean value.
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Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:04
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To Davetheslave: don't take it so personally, after all it's just music. -------------  |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:13
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:38
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Ok, Davetheslave. I'll contact you so we can plan an alibi for what should be done about this... We have to think it thouroughly though... I wouldn't want you to end up in the can for longer than a music-related crime is worth....
If we had to create a thread for every case where we don't agree with a review, there'd be nothing else to talk about on this forum. But we don't. We learned loooooooong ago that this music appreciation and reviewing thing is up to each person's tastes and knowledge....
The album is not pergfect anyway. I gave it a 5 but I'm starting to feel like lowering it one star. http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=173166 - And DT has released a one-star album once. ------------- 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:41
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While we're talking about subjectivity, I have to admit that my mind rebels when I consider the thought that Beethoven is equal to Nickelback, even though I know that once people start shouting subjectivity subjectivity it gets difficult to prove. Similarly, there are many reviews of Trout Mask Replica which state that there is nothing there and/or Captain Beefheart was trying to make music that nobody would ever actually like (with the implication that all avant fans are fooling themselves into eating sh*t so they feel clever). While I don't think that anybody is obligated to like avant-garde music, even though my sarcastic jokes may cause you to think otherwise, this opinion of course is woefully ignorant of the history of avant-garde music and is also extremely condescending. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing the same thing, but pop music makes me angry enough that I can't really maintain the though.
However, it is possible to achieve a degree of "objectivity" in reviews by considering whether or not people who are different from yourself might like it. Obviously it's not objective in the scientific sense, but it's worth noting as being different from say "This is my opinion and that's it".
Well I make fun of you, so I guess I had that one coming. ;-) And you'll never see a DT review from me. I may be petty, but I'm not petty enough to buy an album I'm pretty sure I won't like just so I can give it a negative review and bring down the PA score a fraction of a percent. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:42
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:56
While I agree that pretty much nothing is better than Beethoven (maybe Bach), and ESPECIALLY Nickelback, and while I also agree that it's to easy to throw the "subjectivity" excuse to disguise complete lack of a reason or actual ideas about what one likes or does not like, it's still true that, under specific conditions, subjectivity reigns supreme. Again, we all know that musically, Beethoven is 93872932 miles more advanced, elaborated, complex than most (all?) pop music (including prog and even your beloved avant garde rock here), but for someone, Nickelback might actually be better. Yes. If that someone is looking for a particular something in music that good old Ludwig can't provide but the post-grunge boremasters can, he/she will rightfully declare that, for his purposes and under his circumstances, the Bonn composer has been easily beaten by the Arkansas (or wherever, they look like Arkansas) boys...
After all, in most cases, you can't dance to Beethoven.... (and please people, no smart comments here about how you can actually dance to his music. I'm talking about in the real world with real people). -------------
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 12:45
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I think the various sounds coming my computer are the best music ever. All this prog crap can't compare. Listen to that complexity, man!
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:07
By the way, Robert, just checked his list of reviews and rated Lateralus 1 single star
 To quote Dream Theater:
"I'm sick of all you hypocrites"
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:09
 How can he rate something so obviously amazing a one?!?! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:13
Not sure, he definitely wasn't being objective.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:31
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:51
That's an interesting link. I learned from it. It seems to me a very clear description of what is happening (but should not be happening) on PA. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 15:27
| A Scotsman on a horse! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 15:55
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Dear Sir/Madam I must object in the strongest possible terms to this endemic Scots bashing that proliferates on your forums. We might be grudging, cantankerous, mean, bad tempered, argumentative, and include 'drinking, fighting and heart disease' as our only national sports, but we Scots would NEVER spell Theatre as Theater and would NEVER have bequeathed to the world a w**k metal band featuring a singer named after a French cheese. Disgusted Brisbane PS Bay City Rollers for a new sub genre 'Badly Dressed Prog' ? PPS MC Hammer was NOT Scottish (the space is very important) ------------- 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 16:43
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This is so AWESOME!!! I love this site......Music is art...PERIOD! Beethoven has been dead for like 4,000 years and people still debate his legacy...Was he a fake?? Did he lip-sync it all..??
Although I don't agree with the 1 star rating for BC&SL.....I accept it as the reviewer does not hear what I might hear...I'm fine with that. I don't like many artists here which are regarded as the "prog Gods" of old, but what I respect is the fact that they feel passionate enough about something to make a record for others to hopefully enjoy.
Now I am biased because I will listen to anything (well except for country music) So you will NEVER see me say "I hate it, its horrible, suxs..yada, yada....." If I play it a lot then its a high rating for me........If I download it, then delete it after one listen or give it away (use as coaster, frisbee) then its a low rating for me......I move on.
What I dispise from a reviewer is negativity of an artist....that's not criticism. So I suspect more of these threads will exist in the PA......And that is good!
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 25 2010 at 18:14
How long are the years in your world?  |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:20
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Ok guys - points taken. Thanks for responding - I must say that I have missed you guys during my self imposed exile from the site. I'm still angry about the non inclusion of Stratovarius here in PA but what the hell : ). No harm meant - The Silent One, I still don't believe that you meant to give BC&SL a 1 star review but I suppose that I was caught out on my 1 star review of Laterelus by Tool. Can't stand Tool or, for that matter Metallica. Friends : D ?
Now about Stratovarius .................................................................. LOL ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:29
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I've got to comment on this line from your Ride the Lightning review: "Some people believe that this bunch influenced Dream Theater - No!!" I'm sure you're familiar with DT's version of Master of Puppets, now why would they possibly want to cover that album if there's no influence of any kind involved? ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:47
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Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:48
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The Album is absolutely not a milestone in prog. or music. On the other hand its a good album.
All together it has recived an avrage rating of 68/100 in mainstream music magasines:
Check here :
http://apps.metacritic.com/search/process?sb=0&tfs=all&ts=Black+clouds+and+silver&ty=2&x=38&y=7 - http://apps.metacritic.com/search/process?sb=0&tfs=all&ts=Black+clouds+and+silver&ty=2&x=38&y=7
At PA
1 "Expert" gives 5 stars (rounded up ?)
1 "Expert" gives it 1 star (rounded down ?)
All in all it ends at 3.58, seems high but fair to me takes in to consideration that DT is extreemly popular at PA
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 07:45
I fail to see any difference between this DT review and your 1 star review of Lateralus (an album which has a higher rating than the DT one).
People in glass houses...
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 09:47
Everything is longer in the kingdom of Prog! -------------
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:29
Hey Dave... I send a comment to Pablo about this famous review... and tell him it was too drastic, that the album has at least two good songs (for Pablo's standards) and that I do believe saying that the album was poor was too much. I know Pablo knows well the discography of DT and he even loves the Falling into Infinity... so, I won't critizise his rating, just point at the things I'm not agree with but don't try to make him change his mind... he is one of those who likes the non metal part of DT... and that's OK with me... just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...
For instance, I gave 1 star to Undertow of Tool because the production is awful, the sound is horrible, the voice is unmelodic and don't have any direction and the final result is an alternative rock album with some noises here and there and a poor production... but be the EAnima recieve 3 or 4 stars, I don't remember... even if I don't like Tool... I respect their later work because is better...
Now Metallica... is undeniable that their influence is very evident, more in their latest realeses. Train of Thought have Metallica sound everywhere... so... don't make too much trouble about it... start for And Justice for All... that's the album you should have to hear about Metallica... ------------- |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 11:14
Well, I gave 1 star to Black Clouds & Silven Linings because I didn't find any highlight, there's nothing noteworthy in my opinion.
I generally give 2 stars to an album that I enjoy but I know it's not really good overall.
I'm not sure what's your problem with the 1 star, it seems that it's like a sin for you. It's just a bloody review.
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 13:34
oh also, if there is ANY Marillion in DT, it is in the guitar soloing, but that's really it. |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 14:18
Com'n Pablo... just leave it that way... we understand now why so let's close this theme because we are repeating each other once again... and I really don't want to fight with you... really... I do respect you and your opinion in general about prog... let be the peace a guide for us... Ok...?? ------------- |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 06:43
On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 07:40
Good question. Prog reviewers and collaborators voluntarily invest their time and energy into this site, either by writing quality reviews, working on a genre team, or serving in some other capacity (site monitors, etc). Such members have been rewarded, as it were, with weightier reviews. Also, such weighting helps to offset the work of crafty ratings-manipulators who churn out one and five star ratings. You can read more about review weighting http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54519 - here . ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:09
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After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is. I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics. For the most part, they are quite good. I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here. It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song. For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009. For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song. Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father. Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out. This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag.
One last thought. How much of an influence has Neal Morse had over Mike Portnoy? When did DT become a Christian metal band? I didn't realize until this listen how overtly Christian the lyrics to Shattered Fortress were. I know that these are parts 10 through 12 of a series of songs. I still need to sit down and listen to that series in order to get a better feel for that, but the ending has kind of intrigued me to do that.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:18
As far as the Christian part is concerned, I recently read that three out of five DT members are practising Christians (LaBrie, Myung and Petrucci), while Portnoy and Rudess are Jewish. So, I would be surprised Portnoy was influenced by Morse, unless he's on the verge of becoming a born-again Christian as well, or the lyrics were penned by someone else. For your information, Micky is a very soft-hearted person, and loves sentimental songs - though very probably not those written by DT . |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:37
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Portnoy is credited with the lyrics on Shattered Fortress. I can't say for sure that he wrote them but... I would never have guess that Portnoy was Jewish. I've always assumed that his close association with Neal Morse was as a result of them having similar religious views.
And in regards to Micky, that is why I separated him out from the cold-hearted b*****ds.
 Actually, I believe that he has said before that there is no love lost between him and his father, so I would suspect that a song of such sentiment would not really appeal to him.-------------
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:58
Minor lyrics moan: my complaint isn't the sentiment but rather the style... Dream Theater's members have, since the departure of Kevin Moore had no real grasp of how words work (not that beforehand they were Dylanesque... Awake's rather better lyrically than the rest of their albums, I think). Awkwardly incorporated grandiose phrases, little stylistic individuality, no real application of metre or sound effects and very little precision or direction... and so forth. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 10:04
-------------
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 18:10
Robert, Thanks for providing the link to that thread. Please forget I asked!
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 02:23
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I am of the opinion that there is a danger that DT bashing has become a fashionable here in PA which is sad. There is a UTube vid that may say it all - it is a very funny one where someone "voice overs" a John Petrucci interview - those who have seen it will know what I mean.
The musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years. Anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums. The music of the band may not appeal to everyone (what a boring world if we all loved the the things) but to deny that it is good music is almost to deny music. I do not enjoy hardcore jazz, for example, but I would never deny that it is good music.
Petrucci bashing, Portnoy bashing, Myung bashing - what's that all about? La Brie bashing? - c'mon guys.
La Brie has a good voice in fact.
I've heard that DT has become too "samey" in their output - huh? What about all the fanboys who cried when Octavarium was released that DT was changing too much? The release prior to BC&SL was criticised by many for being too Metal driven. Too samey? Now that's a new one to me.
What we should be doing is comparing the new DT releases to the other output out there (in which case it would win most races easily). We insist on slating their albums because we compare them to their previous releases i.e Images and Words - how can they move on if we refuse to?
If a lot of us here at PA had our way every member of DT would be fired - would we be happy if La Brie were replaced, would we be happy if Portnoy toned down his drum kit and ceased singing backing altogether? Should we get Petrucci to tone down his solos? Maybe DT should get rid of keyboards altogether?
Cmon guys.
I read earlier here that some find no emotion to or in DT's music - I can only say to that that maybe cotton wool was applied to the ears prior to listening. I've read someone stating that the lyrics are bland and silly - huh? Miles ahead of Obladi Oblada I would say - in fact miles ahead of anything the Beatles ever penned. If I were Russian battling with English - yeah then I guess that the lyrics would be lacking in meaning.
DT are one of the honest bands out there trying to please their fan base - judging by the size of that fan base they aren't doing a bad job of it. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 03:43
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 04:51
Well, you see, a lot of people got into prog rock back in the day when it was less metal-oriented and when they check out DT because they are supposed to be one of the best prog bands of modern times, they dislike it because it's so metallic. I am not saying that's right, but it happens, human tendency, just accept it, it's not that hard to.  It is by the way perfectly possible to like metal and still not like DT too much...I personally get off after Awake, which is my opinion and I am bloody well entitled to it. Anyway, we'll come back to this in a bit. Meantime...you find stuff posted on youtube upsetting? Dear me!
I have not personally seen people denying that DT's musicians lack technical ability, could you please show me some examples of this. Most people say they find Petrucci soulless and Rudess annoying. I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. I would also ask how is Petrucci so much more talented than Guthrie Govan and how does Rudess pwn - to use DT fanboy lingo - Barbara Dennerlein, since you seem to suggest there are no musicians as technically skilled as DT's right now.
I do not enjoy Mariah Carey's songs, but I would never deny it is good music...is that your point? Surely a reviewer is entitled to make HIS personal assessment about the quality of music. It's up to you to agree or not. And my point in choosing Carey is she is a very talented singer and could flatten LaBrie technically. Yeah, I am dead serious.
Ok now we get to more interesting things. First of all, vocals is THE most subjective aspect of music appreciation and it can definitely happen that people would have divergent perceptions about it. Again, you are just going to have to accept for that some reason, LaBrie turns off a lot of people. Yes, fact is, LaBrie has a good voice. But he also manages to sound rather inappropriate and odd in several musical contexts. I thought it was DT's music that didn't suit his voice but even on covers, be it Stargazer or Cowboys from Hell. Secondly, his diction in head voice is terrible and becomes a little difficult to bear with. I am sympathetic to that his food poisoning accident took a lot out of him but even on Images & Words and Awake, it is an acquired taste for me. I wouldn't deny he is talented, but there are many aspects of his singing that are potentially off-putting...you'll just have to accept that most people will not patiently draw these fine lines of distinction and simply say they don't like it...nothing wrong with that AT ALL.
90125 is not at all bad for the scene of 1981, and I personally like the album. But it is judged against Close to the Edge and called a mediocre release by Yes's standards. And you don't see me or other Yes fans throwing a fit over that. CTTE is their pinnacle - TFTO is also often suggested as such - that's all, every band has a peak phase. I think DT's was during their Moore-phase. Maybe others have different views but those of us who like the Moore-phase most have the right to say so.
Eh????
Er, what people are probably trying to say is it is not as emotionally resonant as say Starless or Epitaph, which I'd agree with. Maybe you disagree...er, so? Your point being? As for lyrics, I don't judge music by the lyrics but I'd still like to say I find the lyrics of Norwegian wood tastier than DT's lyrics.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 05:11
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Another to add is that taste's change. I've largely gone off that more melodic, more soloing based stuff like Symphony X, Dream Theater etc and more into the groove metal oriented realm of metal now which is much riff based and far less focused on soloing virtuosity. I also highly enjoy post metal, which has many musical characteristics that are completely at odds with Dream Theater's approach. I just find it easier to listen to chilled out post metal than Dream Theater's hectic in your face constantly changing riffs and super lengthy soloing. I still really dig Awake, but a lot of Dream Theater is really too much for me to take in these days. Honestly if I want high tech soloing I'll put on something like Cacophony instead (I don't listen to it often, but every now and then) Yes, cheesy as f**k lyrics, but I get a humorous kick out of it, and Jason Becker and Marty Friedman are easily more interesting melodically than John Petrucci anyway. I also don't have to listen to annoying keyboard solos either. The fact that Jason Becker was also more technically advanced by the age of 16 than Petrucci was even now after all these years was no easy feat. Petrucci's sweep picking technique is absolute dog sh*t compared to that of Jason Becker as a 16 year old's technique.. ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 05:46
| Speaking of which, Shawn Lane too reached an extraordinary (understatement) level of guitar virtuosity at a young age. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:02
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^Shawn Lane was pretty much the most technically advanced electric guitarist ever , at least in terms of lead guitar anyway. There hasn't been a guitarist since he died that has proved to be able to do legato and picking techniques as fast as him while being as accurate. Some guys have come close, but none have quite matched Lane. -------------
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:15
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Rogerthat and Petrovsk - I'm not going to copy paste reply as that will take up a lot of space.
Rogerthat - I developed my love for the music I enjoy today in around 1970. There was no term then like "Metal" relating to music. Prog music then was also not called Prog. The music that I loved was called "Underground music". The likes of Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Grand Funk Railroad, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Genesis etc - could be found in the Underground section of the music stores that I frequented. I watched the birth of Prog and of Metal happen.
You made the comment that really says that the prog lovers of old may not like the metal elements of Dream Theater today. I beg to differ. Dream Theater is an extension of what those old bands were then. DT is in no way a Metal band although to some it may seem as though they are. There's nothing that Dream Theater today does that is heavier metal wise than say, In A Gadda Da Vida - Iron Butterfly, Master of Reality - Black Sabbath, In for the Kill - Budgie, Plurebis E Funk - Grand Funk Railroad. Listen to Deep Purple's Space Truckin off of Made In Japan and tell me that you don't instantly see where Dream Theater are vectoring from today.
Prog lovers of old don't enjoy Dream Theaters style? - Nah - I don't think so.
Mariah Carrey has a better vocal ability than La Brie? To many maybe she sounds better but better vocal ability - I doubt it very much. As a rule pop artists do not come anywhere near prog artists vocally or instrumentally. Unless you want to call Steve Perry a pop artist - lol. Let's put Mariah into Within Temptation or Nightwish - in fact let's put her into old Renneisance or Babe Ruth and see how long she would be around. She's a good looking female pop star - that's it.
La Brie - Ian Gillian - now they are on a par. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:21
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Petrovsk - I've never heard Shawn Lane - I will look out for him. He must be something if he's better than Petrucci who even Malmsteen rated as brilliant. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:31
Er...because you feel this way does not mean everybody does. This is your problem, you think everybody looks at music exactly the same way as you, but they don't. You can read reviews of many veteran progheads saying they dislike the metal elements in DT. On the other hand, DT is simply not an extension of the old prog. Read Cert1fied's blog for more elaborate explanations which I don't see fit to post here as it's too off topic. They are not the heaviest metal around indeed and not even metal 101 but a better fit in metal than prog. Technical/virtuosic metal, I'd say.
Please have a look at this video and check right at the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cOuiiIzFsk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cOuiiIzFsk Tell me this is not extraordinary. I don't like her AT ALL but if you are talking technical wizardry, here's where it's at. Yes, I don't think she would have it easy in Renaissance because Annie Haslam is an outstanding singer...doesn't necessarily follow LaBrie is just because he's in the prog basket. Your statement that pop artists don't approach prog artists vocally or instrumentally makes no sense at all. Minnie Riperton? Stevie Wonder? Steve Lukather? Eddie Van Halen played for a Michael Jackson song and he could crush many prog guitarists too. If you yourself confuse musical preferences with technical skills or lack of, you cannot then demand objectivity from reviewers.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:35
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And to add further to what I said about Mariah, she would demolish Sharon or Tarja easily...technically, that is.
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:46
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Steve Lukather? - I've always believed that Toto should be represented here in PA. Eddie Van Halen aint a pop guitarist. Stevie Wonder in a poll for keyboard or vocal technical prowess - I doubt he would get a vote. Mariah fronting Dream Theater - now there's a thought. Believe it or not Prog music has always been proud of the fact that the artists who form a part of the prog crowd are above and beyond the typical Simon Cowell backed pop artist's abilities.
You want a good technical female pop singer then Sarah Brightman should do it for you. But she aint really a pop artist is she - although she made 1 or 2 popular albums.
Rogerthat - I love arguing music - I stand fast though! - no harm meant. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:49
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Mariah - demolish Tarja or Sharon? - You are confusing me No chance I'm afraid. We'll ask her to sing Dead Boy's Poem - I doubt she would even reach the notes. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:50
| Prog singers are generally pretty far technically from a lot of pop singers. Preference and technical ability are two different things. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:55
Oh yeah, would love to see Derek Dicks attempt Stevie's melismas. Yes, he's not an AMAZING keyboardist....well, heard of the term multi-instrumentalist, I presume?
I don't see that that 'thought' would do much harm.
Whether she's Cowell-backed - if at all, and I highly doubt Cowell came into the picture back then - or not is irrelevant, my point was entirely related to technical prowess. To claim that people should say a band makes good music just because the members are technically accomplished does not hold much water because, as I have just demonstrated, it could just as easily be found in generic pop music. As for Mariah's abilities, if you deny even after seeing the video that she would not be able to match Sharon's abilities, could you please show me where Sharon has ventured beyond C7 - which Mariah does on this video - , would be very much interested. Now don't tell me I am going technical, you started it! If you have so much unshakable faith in your infallible judgment as to not even check the video, then please don't carry this part of the argument forward because I am not interested in countering empty claims. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:56
Exactly...somebody make him understand!
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:06
Very true . However, I might put it in a different way: technical proficiency does not equal good music. In prog, as in everything else, songwriting ability is the key. There are lots of music lovers who, like me, cannot play an instrument, and therefore could not care less about how many notes a second guitarist X can play - what they can appreciate, though, is whether a composition works on the whole. In this respect, many pop songs (the good ones at least - and there is plenty of that) work way better than a good deal of prog ones.Anyway, even if I have stayed away from this thread so far, I need to have my say on the original premises of it. I find it very bad form to start a thread stating that someone does not deserve to be a Prog Reviewer because he/she didn't rate album X very highly. I am an official reviewer for another site, and have provided over 200 reviews for ProgArchives - and, on the strength of my own experience, I can tell you that, if you believe that any review can be totally objective, you are fooling yourself. I know that, besides my own musical preferences (though I try not to allow them free rein), I have my own criteria on the basis of which I judge an album - for instance, I will generally give a lower rating to any album that I believe to be overlong. This is the way things are. What I believe, on the other hand, is that reviews should always be respectful. You can give an album the lowest rating available, but there is no need to insult either the artist or his/her prospective listeners, or give unsolicited advice like, 'avoid at all costs'. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:13
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I just heard Dead Boy's Poem. You didn't even do a good job selecting the songs where she goes really high for her standards, which this is not. I think on one song in Oceanborn, she hits an A5 or somewhere thereabouts, don't remember too well. You asked whether Mariah can touch those notes in Dead Boy's Poem. Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7nXIwGjWMI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7nXIwGjWMI Not just that, I can vouchsafe that Tarja won't get to either the lowest or highest notes in this performance, nor would she be able to touch those riffs (though they are excessive and show-offy). It's a dreadful performance imo but again, I thought we were talking technicality. As I already said, if you are yourself not too strong at judging technical virtuosity, you should not expect others' reviews to reflect sound judgment on the same, let alone base the grading entirely on technical virtuosity alone. |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:32
Raff - the reviewer stated in that review that he laughed harder at one point than he had during a Frank Zappa listening - that is respectful of an artist? I love Zappa and a lot of his music is meant to be funny so I aint slating Zappa - the reviewer, I'm not slating him, just expressing my disappointment. He's probably a very nice bloke.
rogerthat - being a good technical singer doesn't mean doing that for a minute or so - it means sustaining ability throughout a concert. She can reach c7 so whoopee - so can most horror movie actresses - in fact I think I heard Rob Halford go higher on a few occasions. I have seen the clip by the way - didn't impress me much (who wrote that Impress me much song? - )
Let her emote a song like Dead Boy's Poem. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:37
As a Halford fan, I can say confidently that you are simply talking out of your hat. I don't think anymore needs to be said about that.
Oh...now would you make up your mind which line of argument you want to use because you just said a while back...
Now that you have been confronted with proof, you are backpedalling. Which is exactly what I wanted. So, in short, this is what prog rock fans say regarding LaBrie, they don't care if he can hit A5 - I think! - they think Fish, Gabriel, Ian Anderson etc emote far better than him and he pales in comparison to them. I think they are entitled to say that ..unless even opinions on emoting are the monopoly of DavetheSlave the Dream Theater policeman! |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:48
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You made me smile Rogerthat You aint never heard Halford go really high? He nearly knocked my toenails off on a couple of occasions. Glad you like him - I do as well  ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 07:55
In that case, my argument gets stronger still
She's not simply making funny noises, she's showing extraordinary control in the whistle register and..in the second performance, to jump from E4 to C6 is extraordinarily difficult. I don't know how you claim she has no hope in hell of singing in the same range as Tarja on that song because she's demonstrably seen to be singing much higher with ease and secondly, she hits a powerful Bb4 or thereabouts in the second performance, which is around where Tarja was singing in that song.
Excuse me, I have heard Halford go high on several performances but to claim he can go beyond C7 is preposterous. I doubt even Halford would agree with you on that! |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 08:06
I actually don't like a lot of his music thought to be honest. I would rather sit down with Images and Words or Awake than any of Shawn Lane's solo records, but as a lead guitarist Shawn Lane is head and shoulders above Petrucci for innovation in the lead guitar world, technical ability, interesting melodicism and ability to play outside lines that fit well in the musical context -------------
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 08:24
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Rogerthat have you heard - The Spirit Carries On? DT or Whither? If that's not emoting then I don't know what is. The live versions of Sprit are the best. Who's technically more proficient - Andy Latimer or Petrucci - I couldn't answer that - Now Tarja vs Mariah - that's an easy answer for me. I think that Sony BMG got rid of their Mariah contract on the grounds that she had nothing in her in future. That's what I think I remember anyway. Why would anyone want to be in the Cowell fold if they have any real music in them is beyond me. I cannot stand Commercialism in music. If you can be more and you aint more then that says it all to me.
------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 08:27
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Petrovsk - as I said I will look out for him . He must be something if he head and shoulders above the Petruccis, the Malmsteens etc. I remember when Randy Rhodes was rated the best but strangely I never thought so personally. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 08:43
I have heard Spirit Carries on both from the album and Live Scenes.., the emoting is quite terrible and overdone, which is normal service when it comes to LaBrie. I can't say that, can I? No, I can and I'd like to see you stop me.
Wasn't Tarja sacked from Nightwish for being a diva or something?
Again irrelevant stuff. I have said before that my point in choosing Carey was simply to show that technical prowess does not by itself equal good music. And here you are, in stubborn denial that she can sing. You said the musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years and that anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums, right? I have quoted it verbatim but for slight modifications. I say that anybody who claims Mariah is not technically accomplished does not know much about singing. I know a few things myself and I know a friend who is a singer by profession and we both know that indeed she is technically amazing regardless of likes or dislikes...and we both hate the hell out of her too...so what, everybody you dislike is not a poorly skilled artist and everybody you like is not a wizard..but perhaps, Davetheslave 'begs to differ'. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 08:44
Well, he's been dead for sometime so you won't be noticing him in future endeavours. Check out Powers of Ten if you want a good idea of what he could do on guitar. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:06
I can't believe that - I hope it's a joke. There's way a man can sing that high unless he's had a recent accident involving a bicycle crossbar.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:08
It's funny how he talks out of his hat and also says people who criticize DT members' technical ability don't have much idea about the technical aspects of music. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:14
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I absolutely cannot stand Mariah "break a pain of glass by holding a note for way too long like Celine Dion" Carey. It isn't even a contest that I would rather listen to James LaBrie even on his worst songs. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:15
Neither can I but that's not what I said...or is it so confusing? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:17
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Nah, I just wanted to add something totally irrelevant to the argument and seeing her name in the thread makes me see red. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:19
Sorry but I needed to pull that trick to try to make him understand that musicality and technicality are not the same..doesn't seem to have helped though.  |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 09:21
Those are awesome, the first one specially when he says "oh, prog metal is so cool", hahaha. |