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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 07:40
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

 
On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?


Good question.

Prog reviewers and collaborators voluntarily invest their time and energy into this site, either by writing quality reviews, working on a genre team, or serving in some other capacity (site monitors, etc).  Such members have been rewarded, as it were, with weightier reviews.

Also, such weighting helps to offset the work of crafty ratings-manipulators who churn out one and five star ratings.

You can read more about review weighting here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:09

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is.  I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics.  For the most part, they are quite good.  I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here.  It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song.  For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009.  For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song.  Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father.  Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out. 

This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag. 
 
One last thought.  How much of an influence has Neal Morse had over Mike Portnoy?  When did DT become a Christian metal band?  I didn't realize until this listen how overtly Christian the lyrics to Shattered Fortress were.  I know that these are parts 10 through 12 of a series of songs.  I still need to sit down and listen to that series in order to get a better feel for that, but the ending has kind of intrigued me to do that.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:18
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is.  I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics.  For the most part, they are quite good.  I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here.  It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song.  For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009.  For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song.  Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father.  Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out. 

This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag. 
 
One last thought.  How much of an influence has Neal Morse had over Mike Portnoy?  When did DT become a Christian metal band?  I didn't realize until this listen how overtly Christian the lyrics to Shattered Fortress were.  I know that these are parts 10 through 12 of a series of songs.  I still need to sit down and listen to that series in order to get a better feel for that, but the ending has kind of intrigued me to do that.
 


As far as the Christian part is concerned, I recently read that three out of five DT members are practising Christians (LaBrie, Myung and Petrucci), while Portnoy and Rudess are Jewish. So, I would be surprised Portnoy was influenced by Morse, unless he's on the verge of becoming a born-again Christian as well, or the lyrics were penned by someone else.

For your information, Micky is a very soft-hearted person, and loves sentimental songsWink - though very probably not those written by DTLOL.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:37
Portnoy is credited with the lyrics on Shattered Fortress.  I can't say for sure that he wrote them but... I would never have guess that Portnoy was Jewish.  I've always assumed that his close association with Neal Morse was as a result of them having similar religious views.
 
And in regards to Micky, that is why I separated him out from the cold-hearted b*****ds. Wink  Actually, I believe that he has said before that there is no love lost between him and his father, so I would suspect that a song of such sentiment would not really appeal to him.
 


Edited by rushfan4 - February 28 2010 at 09:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:58
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is.  I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics.  For the most part, they are quite good.  I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here.  It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song.  For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009.  For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song.  Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father.  Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out. 
This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag. 
 


Minor lyrics moan: my complaint isn't the sentiment but rather the style... Dream Theater's members have, since the departure of Kevin Moore had no real grasp of how words work (not that beforehand they were Dylanesque... Awake's rather better lyrically than the rest of their albums, I think). Awkwardly incorporated grandiose phrases, little stylistic individuality, no real application of metre or sound effects and very little precision or direction... and so forth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 10:04
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is.  I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics.  For the most part, they are quite good.  I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here.  It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song.  For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009.  For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song.  Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father.  Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out. 
This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag. 
 


Minor lyrics moan: my complaint isn't the sentiment but rather the style... Dream Theater's members have, since the departure of Kevin Moore had no real grasp of how words work (not that beforehand they were Dylanesque... Awake's rather better lyrically than the rest of their albums, I think). Awkwardly incorporated grandiose phrases, little stylistic individuality, no real application of metre or sound effects and very little precision or direction... and so forth.
I'm not certain if I entirely agree with that assessment, but do not these things make for progressive sounding lyrics.  i.e. lyrics that don't follow the standard ABACAB format?  Just curious, as I am talking outside of my element here.

Edited by rushfan4 - February 28 2010 at 10:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2010 at 18:10
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

 
On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?


Good question.

Prog reviewers and collaborators voluntarily invest their time and energy into this site, either by writing quality reviews, working on a genre team, or serving in some other capacity (site monitors, etc).  Such members have been rewarded, as it were, with weightier reviews.

Also, such weighting helps to offset the work of crafty ratings-manipulators who churn out one and five star ratings.

You can read more about review weighting here.
 
Robert, Thanks for providing the link to that thread. Please forget I asked! Wink 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 02:23
I am of the opinion that there is a danger that DT bashing has become a fashionable here in PA which is sad. There is a UTube vid that may say it all - it is a very funny one where someone "voice overs" a John Petrucci interview - those who have seen it will know what I mean.
The musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years. Anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums. The music of the band may not appeal to everyone (what a boring world if we all loved the the things) but to deny that it is good music is almost to deny music. I do not enjoy hardcore jazz, for example, but I would never deny that it is good music.
Petrucci bashing, Portnoy bashing, Myung bashing - what's that all about? La Brie bashing? - c'mon guys.
La Brie has a good voice in fact.
I've heard that DT has become too "samey" in their output - huh? What about all the fanboys who cried when Octavarium was released that DT was changing too much? The release prior to BC&SL was criticised by many for being too Metal driven. Too samey? Now that's a new one to me.
What we should be doing is comparing the new DT releases to the other output out there (in which case it would win most races easily). We insist on slating their albums because we compare them to their previous releases i.e Images and Words - how can they move on if we refuse to?
If a lot of us here at PA had our way every member of DT would be fired - would we be happy if La Brie were replaced, would we be happy if Portnoy toned down his drum kit and ceased singing backing altogether? Should we get Petrucci to tone down his solos? Maybe DT should get rid of keyboards altogether?
Cmon guys.
I read earlier here that some find no emotion to or in DT's music - I can only say to that that maybe cotton wool was applied to the ears prior to listening. I've read someone stating that the lyrics are bland and silly - huh? Miles ahead of Obladi Oblada I would say - in fact miles ahead of anything the Beatles ever penned. If I were Russian battling with English - yeah then I guess that the lyrics would be lacking in meaning.
DT are one of the honest bands out there trying to please their fan base - judging by the size of that fan base they aren't doing a bad job of it.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 03:43



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 04:51
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I am of the opinion that there is a danger that DT bashing has become a fashionable here in PA which is sad. There is a UTube vid that may say it all - it is a very funny one where someone "voice overs" a John Petrucci interview - those who have seen it will know what I mean.

Well, you see, a lot of people got into prog rock back in the day when it was less metal-oriented and when they check out DT because they are supposed to be one of the best prog bands of modern times, they dislike it because it's so metallic.  I am not saying that's right,  but it happens, human tendency, just accept it, it's not that hard to. Dead  It is by the way perfectly possible to like metal and still not like DT too much...I personally get off after Awake, which is my opinion and I am bloody well entitled to it.  Anyway, we'll come back to this in a bit.  Meantime...you find stuff posted on youtube upsetting?  Dear me!

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

The musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years. Anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums.

I have not personally seen people denying that DT's musicians lack technical ability, could you please show me some examples of this.  Most people say they find Petrucci soulless and Rudess annoying.  I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. Tongue I would also ask how is Petrucci so much more talented than Guthrie Govan and how does Rudess pwn - to use DT fanboy lingo Wink - Barbara Dennerlein, since you seem to suggest there are no musicians as technically skilled as DT's right now.  

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

The music of the band may not appeal to everyone (what a boring world if we all loved the the things) but to deny that it is good music is almost to deny music. I do not enjoy hardcore jazz, for example, but I would never deny that it is good music.

I do not enjoy Mariah Carey's songs, but I would never deny it is good music...is that your point?  Surely a reviewer is entitled to make HIS personal assessment about the quality of music. It's up to you to agree or not.  And my point in choosing Carey is she is a very talented singer and could flatten LaBrie technically. Yeah, I am dead serious.  
 
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Petrucci bashing, Portnoy bashing, Myung bashing - what's that all about? La Brie bashing? - c'mon guys.
La Brie has a good voice in fact.

Ok now we get to more interesting things.  First of all, vocals is THE most subjective aspect of music appreciation and it can definitely happen that people would have divergent perceptions about it.  Again, you are just going to have to accept for that some reason, LaBrie turns off a lot of people. Yes, fact is, LaBrie has a good voice.  But he also manages to sound rather inappropriate and odd in several musical contexts. I thought it was DT's music that didn't suit his voice but even on covers, be it Stargazer or Cowboys from Hell.  Secondly, his diction in head voice is terrible and becomes a little difficult to bear with. I am sympathetic to that his food poisoning accident took a lot out of him but even on Images & Words and Awake, it is an acquired taste for me. I wouldn't deny he is talented, but there are many aspects of his singing that are potentially off-putting...you'll just have to accept that most people will not patiently draw these fine lines of distinction and simply say they don't like it...nothing wrong with that AT ALL.

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

What we should be doing is comparing the new DT releases to the other output out there (in which case it would win most races easily). We insist on slating their albums because we compare them to their previous releases i.e Images and Words - how can they move on if we refuse to?

90125 is not at all bad for the scene of 1981, and I personally like the album.  But it is judged against Close to the Edge and called a mediocre release by Yes's standards. And you don't see me or other Yes fans throwing a fit over that.  CTTE is their pinnacle -  TFTO is also often suggested as such - that's all, every band has a peak phase. I think DT's was during their Moore-phase.  Maybe others have different views but those of us who like the Moore-phase most have the right to say so. 

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

If a lot of us here at PA had our way every member of DT would be fired - would we be happy if La Brie were replaced, would we be happy if Portnoy toned down his drum kit and ceased singing backing altogether? Should we get Petrucci to tone down his solos? Maybe DT should get rid of keyboards altogether?
Cmon guys.

Eh???? Confused
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I read earlier here that some find no emotion to or in DT's music - I can only say to that that maybe cotton wool was applied to the ears prior to listening. I've read someone stating that the lyrics are bland and silly - huh? Miles ahead of Obladi Oblada I would say - in fact miles ahead of anything the Beatles ever penned. If I were Russian battling with English - yeah then I guess that the lyrics would be lacking in meaning.
DT are one of the honest bands out there trying to please their fan base - judging by the size of that fan base they aren't doing a bad job of it.  

Er, what people are probably trying to say is it is not as emotionally  resonant as say Starless or Epitaph, which I'd agree with.  Maybe you disagree...er, so?  Your point being?  As for lyrics, I don't judge music by the lyrics but I'd still like to say I find the lyrics of Norwegian wood tastier than DT's lyrics. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 05:11
Another to add is that taste's change.
I've largely gone off that more melodic, more soloing based stuff like Symphony X, Dream Theater etc and more into the groove metal oriented realm of metal now which is much riff based and far less focused on soloing virtuosity.
I also highly enjoy post metal, which has many musical characteristics that are completely at odds with Dream Theater's approach. I just find it easier to listen to chilled out post metal than Dream Theater's hectic in your face constantly changing riffs and super lengthy soloing.
I still really dig Awake, but a lot of Dream Theater is really too much for me to take in these days.
Honestly if I want high tech soloing I'll put on something like Cacophony instead (I don't listen to it often, but every now and then)
Yes, cheesy as f**k lyrics, but I get a humorous kick out of it, and Jason Becker and Marty Friedman are easily more interesting melodically than John Petrucci anyway.
I also don't have to listen to annoying keyboard solos either.
The fact that Jason Becker was also more technically advanced by the age of 16 than Petrucci was even now after all these years was no easy feat. Petrucci's sweep picking technique is absolute dog sh*t compared to that of Jason Becker as a 16 year old's technique..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 05:46
Speaking of which, Shawn Lane too reached an extraordinary (understatement) level of guitar virtuosity at a young age.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:02
^Shawn Lane was pretty much the most technically advanced electric guitarist ever , at least in terms of lead guitar anyway.
There hasn't been a guitarist since he died that has proved to be able to do legato and picking techniques as fast as him while being as accurate. Some guys have come close, but none have quite matched Lane.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:15
Rogerthat and Petrovsk - I'm not going to copy paste reply as that will take up a lot of space.
Rogerthat - I developed my love for the music I enjoy today in around 1970. There was no term then like "Metal" relating to music. Prog music then was also not called Prog. The music that I loved was called "Underground music". The likes of Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Grand Funk Railroad, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Genesis etc - could be found in the Underground section of the music stores that I frequented. I watched the birth of Prog and of Metal happen.
You made the comment that really says that the prog lovers of old may not like the metal elements of Dream Theater today. I beg to differ. Dream Theater is an extension of what those old bands were then. DT is in no way a Metal band although to some it may seem as though they are. There's nothing that Dream Theater today does that is heavier metal wise than say, In A Gadda Da Vida - Iron Butterfly, Master of Reality - Black Sabbath, In for the Kill - Budgie, Plurebis E Funk - Grand Funk Railroad. Listen to Deep Purple's Space Truckin off of Made In Japan and tell me that you don't instantly see where Dream Theater are vectoring from today.   
Prog lovers of old don't enjoy Dream Theaters style? - Nah - I don't think so.
Mariah Carrey has a better vocal ability than La Brie? To many maybe she sounds better but better vocal ability - I doubt it very much. As a rule pop artists do not come anywhere near prog artists vocally or instrumentally. Unless you want to call Steve Perry a pop artist - lol. Let's put Mariah into Within Temptation or Nightwish - in fact let's put her into old Renneisance or Babe Ruth and see how long she would be around. She's a good looking female pop star - that's it.
La Brie - Ian Gillian - now they are on a par.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:21

Petrovsk - I've never heard Shawn Lane - I will look out for him. He must be something if he's better than Petrucci who even Malmsteen rated as brilliant.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:31
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Rogerthat - I developed my love for the music I enjoy today in around 1970. There was no term then like "Metal" relating to music. Prog music then was also not called Prog. The music that I loved was called "Underground music". The likes of Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Grand Funk Railroad, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Genesis etc - could be found in the Underground section of the music stores that I frequented. I watched the birth of Prog and of Metal happen.
You made the comment that really says that the prog lovers of old may not like the metal elements of Dream Theater today. I beg to differ. Dream Theater is an extension of what those old bands were then. DT is in no way a Metal band although to some it may seem as though they are. There's nothing that Dream Theater today does that is heavier metal wise than say, In A Gadda Da Vida - Iron Butterfly, Master of Reality - Black Sabbath, In for the Kill - Budgie, Plurebis E Funk - Grand Funk Railroad. Listen to Deep Purple's Space Truckin off of Made In Japan and tell me that you don't instantly see where Dream Theater are vectoring from today.  

Er...because you feel this way does not mean everybody does.  This is your problem, you think everybody looks at music exactly the same way as you, but they don't.  You can read reviews of many veteran progheads saying they dislike the metal elements in DT.  On the other hand, DT is simply not an extension of the old prog.  Read Cert1fied's blog for more elaborate explanations which I don't see fit to post here as it's too off topic.  They are not the heaviest metal around indeed and not even metal 101 but a better fit in metal than prog.  Technical/virtuosic metal, I'd say.

 
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Mariah Carrey has a better vocal ability than La Brie? To many maybe she sounds better but better vocal ability - I doubt it very much. As a rule pop artists do not come anywhere near prog artists vocally or instrumentally. Unless you want to call Steve Perry a pop artist - lol. Let's put Mariah into Within Temptation or Nightwish - in fact let's put her into old Renneisance or Babe Ruth and see how long she would be around. She's a good looking female pop star - that's it.


Please have a look at this video and check right at the end:


Tell me this is not extraordinary.  I don't like her AT ALL but if you are talking technical wizardry, here's where it's at.  Yes, I don't think she would have it easy in Renaissance because Annie Haslam is an outstanding singer...doesn't necessarily follow LaBrie is just because he's in the prog basket.  Your statement that pop artists don't approach prog artists vocally or instrumentally makes no sense at all.  Minnie Riperton? Stevie Wonder? Steve Lukather?  Eddie Van Halen played for a Michael Jackson song and he could crush many prog guitarists too.  If you yourself confuse musical preferences with technical skills or lack of, you cannot then demand objectivity from reviewers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:35
And to add further to what I said about Mariah, she would demolish Sharon or Tarja easily...technically, that is.Wink

Edited by rogerthat - March 01 2010 at 06:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:46
Steve Lukather? - I've always believed that Toto should be represented here in PA. Eddie Van Halen aint a pop guitarist. Stevie Wonder in a poll for keyboard or vocal technical prowess - I doubt he would get a vote. Mariah fronting Dream Theater - now there's a thought. Believe it or not Prog music has always been proud of the fact that the artists who form a part of the prog crowd are above and beyond the typical Simon Cowell backed pop artist's abilities.
You want a good technical female pop singer then Sarah Brightman should do it for you. But she aint really a pop artist is she - although she made 1 or 2 popular albums.
Rogerthat - I love arguing music - I stand fast though! - no harm meant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:49
Mariah - demolish Tarja or Sharon? - You are confusing me Shocked No chance I'm afraid. We'll ask her to sing Dead Boy's Poem - I doubt she would even reach the notes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2010 at 06:50
Prog singers are generally pretty far technically from a lot of pop singers. Preference and technical ability are two different things.
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