Dream Theater - Prog or not?

jampa17 wrote: Raff wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Man Overboard wrote: You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog.  Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog.   I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard. Have to agree with Iain here. People will very soon be intimidated into not posting anymore if this kind of attitude keeps up. I have seen plenty of slurs against bands I love (like ELP and The Mars Volta), but never once have I barged into a thread calling people fools, even if I think they are. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.   I think he didn't meant no harm or try to intimidate anyone... I encourage to anyone who don't think like him to step up and debate... Is a healthy thing to do and we all are safe behind our own monitors. No one could hurt us here...   Now, I think his logic is very clear... they are prog metal, then that's why they are prog, and that's why they are here in this site, like it or not. Now, if they are more metal than prog, well, is like saying that Pink Floyd is more psychodelic that prog or that Genesis is more pop than prog... I know this last two sentences seem to be "fool" ussing Manoverboard terms... but is in fact true... If we keep thinking "Prog" is a owner term, if we think that prog is something crystal clear and it have to be in every sub genre as a main influence we are not "progressing" and the term lose logic...   @Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...

Camel666 wrote: Raff wrote: Exactly. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening. I don't know, you guys might be right, I am not particularly fond of labels after all and you look much more literate than me on the sbuject , but calling DT non-prog because they use riffs while having on the site the most disparate bands and genres sounds both picky and schizophrenic at the same time. Anyway, back on the matter, a couple of doubts come to my mind. You are practically saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, that progressive metal as a genre doesn't exist, because the extensive usage of riffs puts the prog out of prog-metal. Can this be? And also, what's the border between being progressive rock and becoming progressive metal? Is it riffs then? Is there even a border? What is Rush? Analog Kid is not prog? And what about Kansas's violin? Don't Marillion -and many others- rely on riffs? Please bear in mind I am discussing just for the sake of it, I am really curious to know, no pun intended. On this forum I've learnt Radiohead are progressive and DT might not and I honestly find it fifficult to understand.

It's not just the "riffs verses theme" development, there's also the use of keyboards, complex time signatures, non-verse-chorus song structures that make something Prog from a formal perspective.
And from an artistic perspective it's of course the innovative aspect, the whole thing about progressing a style of rock and so on.
And I may even be forgetting some characteristics.

Now Dream Theatre has some of these things above but not all.

Most of all that theme development is essential to call something "true prog rock" and it's something that Metal will always have trouble with because of it's riff-based structure. In some cases, as with Opeth, the riffs span multiple bars and (usually 4) and have almost become progressive by themselves!

As to Marillion, that's easy, just listen again to the Script For a Jester's Tear track, it has a clear thematic and scenic development.





Edited by Bonnek - February 19 2010 at 16:48

Ah. Option 1 is for the ones who subscribe to the notion that prog metal is a subgenre of prog rock, whereas option 2 is for those who feel that prog metal has nothing to do at all with prog rock ;-)

I voted for option 2.  Option 1 is slightly confusing.  How can a band be both prog rock and prog metal?  Do you mean they have some prog rock albums, and others are prog metal?

Raff wrote: Exactly. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening.

Edited by Camel666 - February 19 2010 at 13:24

Ok. One question. It's very unlikely but let's say this poll reveals DT are not prog... Should be remove them off PA? Or put them in prog-related? 

Bonnek wrote: I also put DT in the last category, "metal with progressive elements". The reason is not because they have or (have not) pushed boundaries, but simply because they do not apply one of the formal aspect of Prog: One of the main formal features to evaluate whether something is Prog or not is in the song writing. Prog songs typically use developing ('progressing') themes and melodies that flow into one another. A song starts at point A and before you know it they are at point Z. A good example for me is the first 5 minutes of Echoes. This is clearly opposed to song writing in metal, which builds songs as a sequence of riffs. That's also what I hear Dream Theatre doing. Prog is not a sequence of riffs, Metal is. The fact whether those themes or riffs are either simple or complicated doesn't matter as much. Also it has nothing to do with the quality. One method is not 'better' then the other.

Exactly. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening.

Well, if we're discussing progressive rather than prog, we can safely remove at least 4900 artists from the database here, most probably many more. Of the ones left, we might have 2 or 3 albums max by any artist that in themselves can be deemed innovative and groundbreaking - truly progressive. After that any artist will start replicating themseles to a lesser or greater degree, and while these subsequent albums might be worthwhile and even stellar in quality, they won't any longer be truly groundbreaking nor truly innovative.

As far as DT goes - if merited by the standards of the site, their claim as progressive should be rather clear. Whether you like them or not, they have at least one prog album in their discography.

They've never been hardcore progressive of course, and while innovative it has been more in a genre expanding manner reaching out to non-prog music. And whether you like it or loathe it - they did pave the way for the subsequent wave(s) of sophisticated metal artists.

Like ELP and a score of other artists in the 70's they are way too fond of instrumental masturbation, that is their major weak point. Arguably alongside the vocal antics of James LaBrie. He does a rather good job of melting earwax though ;-)

Personally I'm most fond of their least progressive outing - their debut effort. With the vocals on that production very much the reason for that being the case.

Raff wrote: I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.

Raff wrote: jampa17 wrote:   @Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...     Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good.