Dream Theater - Prog or not?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65172
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 09:33
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Topic: Dream Theater - Prog or not?
Posted By: Windhawk
Subject: Dream Theater - Prog or not?
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:11
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To sum up http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64959 - a heated debate - a poll that (hopefully) gives all the options stated therein. I hope everyone with a point of view on the topic will make this a highly visited and used poll :-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Replies:
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:22
| oh god not this again |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:25
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Olav, you should make this thread vote only with no comments, with a link to the other thread where comments can be made. That way the comments are kept together. ------------- 
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:25
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Yeah, it's been done a few times before *chuckles*
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:27
Agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yikes...... -------------   
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rushfan4 wrote:Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:29
Poll only is always a bad idea simply because the thread will never be bumped and it will get lost very quickly. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:30
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Last one. ------------- 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:30
And that is a bad idea why?  He could always add the comment, bump the thread, and close the comment again.-------------
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:41
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I've linked to the other debate now at least. Think I'll leave the space open for comments here as well. Those with an opinion on the debate in question will probably manage to find it and give their say there ;-)
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:44
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Olav i vote for the first option, i only participate in the "heaten" debate only because i do not consider them a "legend" right now.
Cheers.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:45
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And what is "pog" metal that you referring in the second option? ------------- |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:48
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First option for sure.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:39
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I'm still completely clueless as to how people can possibly deny Dream Theater as a prog band. First option (and maybe the second) are the only ones that even remotely make sense. -Jeff ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:37
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Dream Theater creates Prog music, it does not exclusively create Prog music to my knowledge. I consider it part of the greater Prog scene. I consider metal to be a subset of rock, which makes its music both Progressive Metal and less narrowly Progressive Rock. I do not think of bands as Prog per se as I do music as Prog (though if one is shortening this from being part of the Prog movement, creating Prog-styled music, or part of the greater Prog scene then I might let this lie -- I know it's implied). Also, it rather bugs me somewhat since many bands deemed Prog also make non-Prog music so the dichotomy does not work for me much of the time Further down the list, I don't believe that bands under the Prog-scene umbrella need be progressive (as an adjective), nor are many bands/artists that make progressive music Prog (many have been outside of the rock/metal universe). I'm not sure how progressive (as in moving music forward, innovation, and expanding the lexicon of what rock/metal music can be, or music generally) Dream Theater is (of course being progressive infers innovation rather than pure invention) but I find it quite conventional in approach (so not very progressive -- more Prog by style than Prog by approach to use the ratingfreak terminology). Ultimately, no vote. The music does not strike me as terribly progressive (but that's not to say that it hasn't progressed metal). I do think the band makes music fits the greater Prog scene, but as I said, I don't really consider bands Prog; I consider music itself Prog or not, or Prog by degree commonly. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:47
| No vote. Depends entirely on what you're talking about. Even their best albums (I love Awake, for instance) don't strike me as being genuinely progressive. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:54
Oh give over folks, they are a prog band through and through. Doesn't mean they are any good though does it  Yeah go on fanboys, flame me. Please. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:15
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It certainly doesn't. If music being Prog was dependant upon quality (rather than
qualities), most of the bands in the archives, and a number of
categories, would be discarded -- leaving only
my, and people with similarly good tastes -- favourites. ;) Anyway, there's not much worse than cookie-cutter Prog (Prog-by-numbers), and could Dream Theater ever be accused of that?
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:18
If you discount Dance of Eternity then... Oh wait nevermind 
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:18
You mean only Jazz Rock, and any sub-genre that shares even a tiny bit of relation with jazz, right? I would be ok with that, yeah.
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Posted By: kawkaw123
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 00:35
| Wow i'm surprised that anyone could think that dream theater is not Progressive. |
Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 00:52
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Well, They are the epitome of Prog Metal. I mean, If it wasn't for Images and Words, prog metal would be a very different genre compared to what it is now. They are also prog rock because....well...progmetal is a subset of progrock whichever way you look at it. In recent years, they have mixed their prog elements with an increasingly straight-metal approach. This is something that saddens me very much, and sometimes it is hard to like the band nowadays. But for every "constant motion" or "as I am", they go on and do something like Octavarium (the song) or the first section of "the count of tuscany" and they do redeem themselves in my eyes. Bottom line, DT used to be a great prog band (up until rudess joined in), nowadays they have the occasional flashes of brilliance, but I feel they are not putting their potential to great use. Oh well.... ------------- |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:40
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I own two DT albums (Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory), so I'm not an expert in this field, but both albums indicate that they belong to both Prog and Metal. So I go with the majority. ------------- 
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Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:44
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Come on, is this for real? Why can't people just be happy that a progressive band has such a wide success? Considering they are practically the only one. Never really got this elitarism bullsh*t. I understand there's people who don't like DT but they ARE a progressive metal band. If not, who else? You've got virtuoso musicianship, long suites, extensive instrumental parts, a high-pitch singer... not only they are progressive, they even are not that original at that. If THEY are not progressive, than what is Rush? Or Kansas? Boy bands? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:50
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Sadly there are folks who don't think Rush or Kansas are progressive either. It seems that at times the band must have originated in Mother Europe in order for a band to be considered progressive. -------------
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Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:13
Never got THAT too.
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:27
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You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog. Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 03:49
| They are prog metal. Metal is rock. They are prog rock. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:39
| Dream Theater play progressive metal (style), but they aren't very Progressive in my opinion (as in innovative). They might even be considered to be regressive on their latest albums. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:44
I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:21
Have to agree with Iain here. People will very soon be intimidated into not posting anymore if this kind of attitude keeps up  . I have seen plenty of slurs against bands I love (like ELP and The Mars Volta), but never once have I barged into a thread calling people fools, even if I think they are. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot. |
Posted By: Nimell
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:46
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:10
I think he didn't meant no harm or try to intimidate anyone... I encourage to anyone who don't think like him to step up and debate... Is a healthy thing to do and we all are safe behind our own monitors. No one could hurt us here...
Now, I think his logic is very clear... they are prog metal, then that's why they are prog, and that's why they are here in this site, like it or not. Now, if they are more metal than prog, well, is like saying that Pink Floyd is more psychodelic that prog or that Genesis is more pop than prog... I know this last two sentences seem to be "fool" ussing Manoverboard terms... but is in fact true... If we keep thinking "Prog" is a owner term, if we think that prog is something crystal clear and it have to be in every sub genre as a main influence we are not "progressing" and the term lose logic...
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:33
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For me, they are I removed the 'merely' because that sounds to me as if being metal would in any sort of way indicate a lower value then being prog. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:39
Yes, and at times, such threads and posts can become extremely wearisome. However, this getting on middle aged white bloke from Mother Europe will state that they most definitely must be considered prog, and takes his hat off and a huge respectful bow to ALL bands who further the spirit of prog originating from outside of the old continent. I've started to enjoy a great many of them through this site, and that is, clearly, the main reason why we all love it. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:44
Well, if you think I consider prog only what I like, then you're off base just about 100%. I'd recommend you read my review of one of my favourite albums of all time - Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell - and look at what I say in the last paragraph about their 'prog-relatedness'. Same goes for BOC's ET Live, an album I love to death. Anyone who knows me here will tell you that I am anything but a purist, and will try anything music-wise at leat once. However, you don't know me, so you might be misled into believing that for me not being prog equates not being good. Edit: My avatar is a prog-related album - how much of a prog purist can I be ? |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:52
Jampa17 i'm curious to know how you define DT? because you haven't say anything about that, i woud like to know you appretiation (de tú ronco pecho) and not finding the negative side in other's posts. ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:58
In fact, that's was not what I meant... it was more like "as long as we all like what we like a don't try to bash each other tastes and bands... we can keep discussing with each other...there's no problem..." so... sorry if my post was misled... I have seen your posts here and there and I know you are not a purist... I think you have put several times in all DT threads that even if you don't like them you consider them important to the subgenre and all that... I do ask for appologies because I didn't meant that... Ok...???
And I will try to keep away from this Thread.. as long as I already stated what I think about it... ok...???
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Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:02
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Really, what's NOT progressive about DT's sound? World's most famous prog-metal band deemed to be NOT prog by prog fans themselves. Imho, it's the plain and old "they are succesful therefore I hate them and they are not prog or I'll tell mummy" scheme all over again.
Agreed to some extent (love Gordian Knot btw, and even the Italian Nodo Gordiano :) but we need to get things clear here. If by "progressive" we mean only the "going musically further" part of it, then we should cut at least 80% of the bands listed on progarchives. The most-loved and utterly prog Porcupine Tree being the first, considering they sound like a broken vynil from the 70s. And I love them for this. Progressive is not only about being original and raising the bar, even though sometimes it might get down just to that. It certainly was born that way, with bands experimenting mixing genres and influences but with time it HAS become a genre of its own and right now it has its canons. DT definitely play by these canons. Ok, it's Rush meet Kansas meet Rudess all over again but it is prog nonetheless. Or therefore, I don't know anymore Moreover, their influence is so big that half of the bands currently considered prog-metal would sh*t in their pants, should we pass this motion.
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:17
Well... answering to you (I said above that I didn't post anymore in this thread but well...) I notice in DT all discography evident references to Rush... in fact their first two albums sounds a 50% like Rush and the other 35% like Iron Maiden and the rest 15% somekind of 80's hair metal...
After Awake I found a more consistent "original" stuff... more purely DT with a lot of different elements like U2, Rush, Metallica, Van Halen, King Crimson, Yes and everything merged to sound in a complete "new" thing. I think you can follow me if you have heard Awake, Falling into Infinity, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos.
Now... I know that in the last decade they have focused maybe the 50% in metal... but they remain highly progressive with songs like Octavarium, Six Degrees, Blind Faith, In Presence of Enemies, The Count, A Nightmare to Remember and so on... Don't know if this answer your question...? ------------- |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:27
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Well, if we're discussing progressive rather than prog, we can safely remove at least 4900 artists from the database here, most probably many more. Of the ones left, we might have 2 or 3 albums max by any artist that in themselves can be deemed innovative and groundbreaking - truly progressive. After that any artist will start replicating themseles to a lesser or greater degree, and while these subsequent albums might be worthwhile and even stellar in quality, they won't any longer be truly groundbreaking nor truly innovative. As far as DT goes - if merited by the standards of the site, their claim as progressive should be rather clear. Whether you like them or not, they have at least one prog album in their discography. They've never been hardcore progressive of course, and while innovative it has been more in a genre expanding manner reaching out to non-prog music. And whether you like it or loathe it - they did pave the way for the subsequent wave(s) of sophisticated metal artists. Like ELP and a score of other artists in the 70's they are way too fond of instrumental masturbation, that is their major weak point. Arguably alongside the vocal antics of James LaBrie. He does a rather good job of melting earwax though ;-) Personally I'm most fond of their least progressive outing - their debut effort. With the vocals on that production very much the reason for that being the case. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:56
I also put DT in the last category, "metal with progressive elements". The reason is not because they have or (have not) pushed boundaries, but simply because they do not apply one of the formal aspect of Prog: One of the main formal features to evaluate whether something is Prog or not is in the song writing. Prog songs typically use developing ('progressing') themes and melodies that flow into one another. A song starts at point A and before you know it they are at point Z. A good example for me is the first 5 minutes of Echoes. This is clearly opposed to song writing in metal, which builds songs as a sequence of riffs. That's also what I hear Dream Theatre doing. Prog is not a sequence of riffs, Metal is. The fact whether those themes or riffs are either simple or complicated doesn't matter as much. Also it has nothing to do with the quality. One method is not 'better' then the other. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:04
Exactly . Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening. |
Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:33
I see your point and I agree to some extent but I honestly think of it as a difference in terms more than in facts. After all a riff is itself a repeated melodic figure. The fact that the "progression" is made through riffs doesn't really change the substance of things. It's not like we don't define Bolero's Ravel or Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries classical because they are based on riffs. Moreover, in psych/space rock bands like Floyd or Hawkwind you often see this process you're talking about but many other prog bands extensively used riffs in their compositions - Siberian Khatru, anyone? It's rock we're talking about here.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:57
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Ok. One question. It's very unlikely but let's say this poll reveals DT are not prog... Should be remove them off PA? Or put them in prog-related? -------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:58
I doubt that, since the Admins most likely wouldn't agree neither the Prog Metal team which are the ones who decide.
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Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:08
I don't know, you guys might be right, I am not particularly fond of labels after all and you look much more literate than me on the sbuject  , but calling DT non-prog because they use riffs while having on the site the most disparate bands and genres sounds both picky and schizophrenic at the same time.Anyway, back on the matter, a couple of doubts come to my mind. You are practically saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, that progressive metal as a genre doesn't exist, because the extensive usage of riffs puts the prog out of prog-metal. Can this be? And also, what's the border between being progressive rock and becoming progressive metal? Is it riffs then? Is there even a border? What is Rush? Analog Kid is not prog? And what about Kansas's violin? Don't Marillion -and many others- rely on riffs? Please bear in mind I am discussing just for the sake of it, I am really curious to know, no pun intended. On this forum I've learnt Radiohead are progressive and DT might not and I honestly find it fifficult to understand.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:25
Teo, excuse me for asking, but didn't you vote for the last option yourself?  Now I am a little bit confused...Edit (@Camel666): I believe it was the Prog-metal experts themselves (The T, aka Teo, first of all) who pointed out that Prog-Metal and Prog-Rock are different. Therefore, I, as a non-expert, cannot but defer to their superior knowledge (no irony intended here!). Not being a musician myself, I judge music impressionistically, and - having heard both a lot of prog and a lot of classic metal - this is the impression I got when listening to DT. Anyway, I believe a practising musician could explain to you what the difference is between the use of riffs in prog and in metal. I only know that I HEAR the difference, but cannot explain it in technical terms. |
Posted By: Angel of Death
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:03
| I voted for option 2. Option 1 is slightly confusing. How can a band be both prog rock and prog metal? Do you mean they have some prog rock albums, and others are prog metal? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:24
If one treats metal as a rock subcategory, then more narrowly it can be defined as metal while more generally described as a form of rock music. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:25
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Ah. Option 1 is for the ones who subscribe to the notion that prog metal is a subgenre of prog rock, whereas option 2 is for those who feel that prog metal has nothing to do at all with prog rock ;-)
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:28
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Ah, great idea, mixing a "what is prog" thread with a Dream Theater thread. I'll post tomorrow on page 10
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 16:41
It's not just the "riffs verses theme" development, there's also the use of keyboards, complex time signatures, non-verse-chorus song structures that make something Prog from a formal perspective. And from an artistic perspective it's of course the innovative aspect, the whole thing about progressing a style of rock and so on. And I may even be forgetting some characteristics. Now Dream Theatre has some of these things above but not all. Most of all that theme development is essential to call something "true prog rock" and it's something that Metal will always have trouble with because of it's riff-based structure. In some cases, as with Opeth, the riffs span multiple bars and (usually 4) and have almost become progressive by themselves! As to Marillion, that's easy, just listen again to the Script For a Jester's Tear track, it has a clear thematic and scenic development. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 22:17
| I definitly know just about nothing from music theory and it's terms, but it would seem to me that many of DT's songs do progress (at least more than other metal bands). First comes to my mind Octavarium, but then also Fianally Free, both of which include many different themes that still sound perfectly well together. I'm sure if I think harder or listen to them again I can find more. However, I could easily be misinterpreting what's been said here. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:19
Epic backlash. Jampa has the right idea; I generally try to present things that are backed with logic and -should- stand up to debate. If my logic is flawed, my view would naturally be altered. But I certainly wasn't trying to put anyone's back up, I apologize. Still, if one -did- hold such an opinion, mayhaps they should be exposed to logic and rethink the situation. Except I've not really seen anyone put that opinion forth... only in theory, as the OP presents. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:57
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I don't get why people are saying DT are not prog because of their reliance on riffs. Are they kidding? "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Close to the Edge", "Starless", "Echoes"? These are prog landmarks and they all have repeated riffs. Not to mention DT does develop theirs. Just listen to the Octavarium track. Despite whether you think it's good or not the main theme (flute at the beginning) is surprisingly not repeated much in every instance of its usage, and is developed several times along with other themes. And this is not just one instance.
I'm just saying. Opeth is definitely repetitive when it comes to riffs, but Dream Theater isn't, at least not necessarily. ------------- 
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:00
This too. Have you guys -listened- to classic prog? ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:04
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^ People have the same issue with Meshuggah, I've noticed. I've seen reviews where people make the claim that the riffs never change the whole song. Ridiculous. The changes are sometimes so subtle,a careless listener may miss it, but even besides those times, the riffs progress and change drastically quite often in this type of music. Just because something is heavy doesn't mean it isn't developed or complex.
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:07
Really, just because something's heavy has no bearing whatsoever on whatever complexity it may or may not possess.  I still rate Mindcrime very very highly.------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:08
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^Yeah, I agree with what you say. Of course Dream Theater's developments are far more blatant than Meshuggahs but still, they're both clearly there. I think people hear some relatively simpler distorted guitar riffs in "Pull Me Under" and assume that it's just a metal band with keyboards. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:43
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It's funny, a poll is starrted, with some determined options, but there's a strong preasure against those who don't vote for option 1.
But still 36% of the people who care enough about DT to even come here, have voted that they are not Progressive Rock (Almost 4 of each 10 members who care to vote in a DT poll is very high).
Note: Options 2, 3, 4 and 5 imply they are not a Progressive Rock band
I have made my mind and gone with N° 5, I honestly only find a few Prog elements.
Iván
BTW: Camel666, Pink Floyd was much more successful than DT and think they are Prog, almost the same goes for Kansas in the 70's.
___________________________
Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins (You may add 458 names more) acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness.
 Also, if any of my words hurts their huge sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
_____________________________ ------------- 
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 01:45
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Still funny to see that the votes for option 1 were much more dominant when no pressure was applied in the following discussion. Have been tracking this poll closely for obvious reasons. And as far as pressure go - I really do think that the people active on this site are adult and self-assured enough to not bend to any form of pressure. I believe that people will stand for what they mean. I don't know how this is in the rest of the world, but my general experience is that pressure to do something in one specific manner most often will lead to the opposite result, due to the rebellious nature so much a part of most people's personalities. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 01:52
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I hope I don't appear like one of the buttsore DT fanboys that Ivan's talking about, I just felt that some people didn't know what they were talking about, so I put in my two cents.
I don't really listen to DT too much anymore, but I still chose the first option. -------------
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 01:59
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^ Yeah, basically. I've all but outgrown their music (in my ears), but I can't really stand for ignorance on the subject. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 05:30
Of course, everything has some repeated riffs. Basically, repetition is all what 90% of all music is about. There's some exceptions in modern classical, abstract electronic music and Wagner of course. Now if you only hear a repeated sequence of riffs in the first 5 minutes of Echoes then we have a different set of ears. I can't comment on Octovarium, I don't own all DT albums. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 05:40
 I think it's just that anyone who had a strong opinion voted early.------------- What? |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 05:46
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Could be. But if that is the case, then the amont of pressure in the subsequent debate will be even less of an issue, as the ones put under a pressure then indeed has totally failed to be swayed by it ;-)
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 05:52
That is strange indeed. Meshuggah would strike me as one of those rare Metal band that are truely Prog as well. Other examples would be early Psychotic Waltz, Voivod or a recent band like Intronaut. Heaviness is of course not the issue, but I would say that the piano for example, invites a lot more to progressive rock songwriting then a heavily distorted guitar does. The example above about Octavarium argues that a section with flute offers some thematic development. My point exactly. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 06:23
I don't think it is possible to change anyone's opinion by posting on the internet - (even this minor OT one between you and I ), you can only modify it slightly but not enough to flipover a core belief. It is different when an objective 'fact' is being debated, but not a subjective opinion such as this.------------- What? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 08:13
As Dean mentions, and by my extperience on tghi issues in PA, I seeen than when a band is mentioned (Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc, buut specially DT some of who are always claiming unfair play against them) people come in this other
Buyt Olav is also right to a certain point, when people starts to be harrassed, some voters won't say their opinuion with fear to be didiculized or called ignorants who know nothing but vote against the band as a form of rebellion..
Again, just my impression on the issue
Iván
______________________________
Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins (You may add 458 names more) acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness.
Also, if any of my words hurts their huge sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
_____________________________ -------------
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 08:58
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Well Ivan, the answer 2 to 5 has no even the half of the votes of the first one... I know we both do not believe too much in democracy (Who said 50+1 is always right and the rest is wrong?) but is evident that the majority of the active members are voting for the one with more logic... DT is both prog and prog metal... so... no matter if 3 of every 10 members think they are not... accept it Ivan... at least in this poll... you are not with the winners... ------------- |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 09:32
Indeed. At the very best, debates - whether on screen or on paper - can start a process that eventually will end up with a change of opinion. At a later stage. A certain Hendrix revelation comes to mind in that particular context ;-) As for the topic of this poll, I'll always wonder how much goes down to personal taste in cases like these. This debate does remind me quite a lot of others I witnessed a couple of decades ago - then it was Hawkwind's progressive credentials which were the subject of snide remarks and ridicule - basically described as simplistic blues based hard rock by certain proggers at the time, who complained loudly about the lack of sophistication and the notion that cliched spacey keyboards were enough to make a band "prog". I's curious about how many who agree to that notion these days. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: ko
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 13:31
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first option |
Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 20:32
Let it be clear, I don't care if DT are considered prog, metal or dance, I'd still listen to them. And to Kylie Minogue. But to me, it still seems like you guys are trying too hard to prove something that has little to no sense at all.
This is modern music, it obviously works a bit differently from how it did back in the 70s but the intent, that's the same. What's the difference if the progression is made through riffs (something progressive bands already did in the 70s by the way, that's rock for you) or via themes or arias? How can someone openly say Octavarium is not progressive? Or The count of Tuscany, with the last 7-8 minutes that are so Pink-Floydy they'd fool Roger Waters himself?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 21:24
From the start I said a high percentage of members disagree with the Prog status opf DT and 36% is a huge percentage.
And remember, most of non DT fans will never visit a thread of them,
Iván -------------
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 21:52
------------- |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 22:07
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BTW: Jampa, "the answer 2 to 5 has no even the half of the votes of the first one"
As far as I see 34 is more than half of 58, and even in the morning when I made my post 36% was more than half of 64%
Your math is very peculiar.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 22:21
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I voted I'm unsure about their progressive credentials in the end since though I believe they compose "Prog" (noun) music, I don't know how progressive (adjective) the band's music/ approach really is.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 22:32
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^It seems Mike's view of prog (by approach/by style) is finally catching on.
Will Mike be a legend in 20 years? -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 22:36
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I think it can be noted Dream Theater is not exactly avant garde. Let's
not kid ourselves folks, the aim of the DT game is not to write the most
out there, crazy sh*t ever. I hear a lot of complain about this aspect of their sound, that they aren't out there enough, not full blown intense. But again, they never set out to be, and arguably neither did many of those symphonic prog bands that Ivan will argue are far more prog than DT. So really, are they so prog if they are just following the same formula again and again? Some would say many symph prog or pysch prog would not qualify for prog rock. Personally I don't listen to DT much anymore as my taste has moved onto my groove oriented metal bands that are much more riff based (Gojira, Meshuggah, Periphery, Chimaira, 1980 etc) but Images and Words and Awake are undeniably complex records in the metal realm. Hell SFAM contains enough non metal rock parts that I consider it to be prog rock as well (although I don't find SFAM to be a particularly great album anymore musically) Personally I don't see a lot of prog in their recent albums. They sound more like random mish-mashes of riffs that don't fit coherently to me which makes me question their recent progressive qualities, which is why I stick to Awake being my favorite of theirs (and indeed, one of the best of the prog metal genre) because it sounds coherent to me |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 20 2010 at 22:43
Maybe, but that has always been my view too (I've been expressing that since I got here, though his terminology has affected me I'm sure). Anyway, I think he's done great things with his implementatation at progfreak (if PA and PF merged, not that it would happen, we would have a really fantastic site). EDIT: I'm having a curious sense of deja vu, like we've had this exact same discussion before. I've always said that Prog and progressive are not synonymous -- one can make Progressive Rock (in a generic sense) without being progressive and one can create progressive music (be innovative) without making Prog (and indeed rock is hardly the only avenue for musical innovation). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 05:50
Oh, did I say I would call Rush true Prog?  A few songs aside, I don't think they are for the same reasons as I listed for DT. Basically it's all in the name. The name Prog Metal says it already. Half Prog, half Metal. A few exception aside, Prog Metal will never be 100% Prog to me, but always be Metal with progressive elements. And in case there's any remaining doubt about this, I generally prefer Prog Metal to true Prog. And I never said Prog can't or doesn't have riffs. The addition of the thematic development makes something Prog, but besides that they can add whatever they want. Riffs, metal, even a dance beat for all I care. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 06:40
------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 09:49
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Prog or not? Who cares? If you like the music that's all that matters.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 09:51
Best post in the whole thread ! |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 09:59
First of all that I can't type. I meant to write theme development or musical progression as I've called it earlier on in this thread. In fact what I try to say has been explained much better by Certif1ed in many of his reviews: If I may quote from his Prog vs progressive thread. That the music itself contains progressions, the word here being used to mean passages of music that segue into another, standing in contrast to simple constructions such as a verse/chorus based song. Obviously there's no consensus whether that defines prog or not. But for me it's a big argument to call something "true Prog". It's not something that will improve or decrease my listening pleasure but well yeah, I was trying to explain why I chose option 5 here. Nothing more. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:20
Dream Theater are an example of a band that does incorporated such thematic progressions into their music just as Yes, Genesis and countless other Progressive Rock bands have done in the past. With all those bands sometimes it fails - it sometimes it sounds like they just joined shorter disparate sections of music together without any thematic similarities between them - but even that can and does work and we still call it Progressive Rock. How and why they do it is immaterial - whether it is a natural development of a tune or following a "prog by numbers" blueprint is only worth investigating if the composition fails.
A Riff is just a theme, a motif, a short melody, a phrase - a refrain (riff-rain) - whether played as single notes, as full-chords or power chords - if all any band did was repeat that phrase for 10 minutes it would be tedious in the extreme - they all develop/modify/progress, drop/replace/substitute, reprise/return/conclude to create movement and tension in the music. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:29
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Well if its yust half metal and half prog, what is prog rock then its the same thing half rock half prog, i gues there never was any real 100% prog band then, that anyone can have doubts about em being prog, thats yust rediculus... i culd say the same thing about marillion its yust pop with some prog elements. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 16:49
Yes, that sums it up. But it's been a lengthy discussion here and I got sidetracked on the whole 'theme development' thing  Anyway, it is something I don't hear in DT and not in metal generally (some exceptions already given in this thread). But I've sure taken notice from other people's arguments and I'll check out that Octavarium. One day we'll find a fitting definition of Prog that we all agree on. But then a new band will come along to challenge all our hard work and make us re-define it all over again! |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 16:53
Oh yes there is! Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream No rock and all progressive! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 17:36
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Kyle McTreehugger
Date Posted: February 21 2010 at 17:51
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Dream Theater has in most of their songs at least some progressive elements. The complex time signatures and time changes alone I would consider enough to qualify them as progressive. They have well developed musical themes throughout the majority of their songs that are anything but repetitive as far as repeating of musical ideas(especially compared to the majority of non-prog genres). They even have some mildly art rock and psychadelic influences at points of certain songs( misunderstood(the end of it),disappear, octavarium). I don't think any of their music doesn't have progressive elements,at the very least, except possibly some of the ballads. Even the heavy metal sounding songs do have a great deal of complexity. ------------- One Nation Under Prog! |
Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 22 2010 at 04:00
Ok, I think we must agree to disagree I would call Rush progressive -at least during their so called "progressive era"- from now till the end of time, but it's just an opinion and in the end it doesn't change our enjoyment of their music. Anyway, while I obviously respect your idea of progressive, I think if it leaves out of the genre bands like Rush back in the day and DT right now, than maybe it's not exactly the best way to describe what progressive was -or is. Rules need to reflect reality, otherwise they are just sterile speculations. My two cents and no offense
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 22 2010 at 06:33
But that's exactly what this thread is for |
Posted By: Camel666
Date Posted: February 22 2010 at 07:33
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Posted By: MaxerJ
Date Posted: February 22 2010 at 07:48
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DT once were 'Progressive Metal' (Images, Awake), then they became 'Prog Metal' (6DOIT, Train, bits of Systematic) but recently they have declined into mere 'Metal with Proggy overtones'. I think it is very simple to understand this way. They were once truly 'Progressive', but then they started rehashing a sound they had created, and were genrefied into 'Prog Metal' (I like to think of 'Prog Rock/Metal' as genres and 'Progressive' as an underlying musicality). Now they are just metal. But like Slarti said, who cares? I still think they are fantastic. Except I can't forgive them for screwing up Count of Tuscany. ------------- Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts  'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Posted By: peart_lee_lifeson
Date Posted: February 22 2010 at 09:39
I completely agree with you.
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: February 23 2010 at 03:10
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Prog rock didn't have almost anything at all to do with rock. You know, when it started out, when the coin was actually termed. There were some Rock moments in the output of the defining Prog bands, but they were rare exceptions rather than the rule (Your Move by Yes, about 16 bars in Peel the Paint by Gentle Giant, some boogie rock workouts by ELP). In some of the more defining bands, like Genesis, there's practically no Rock there at all. I don't see why people have this desperate needto b*****dize the term by diluting its original meaning and intent. Can't DT fans just be happy that they are a great Prog Metal band, probably even the greatest ever? What this urgent need to include them under an umbrella they've quite deliberately stepped outside of? The result is things like Prog (the magazine) now writing about just plain Metal bands who seem vaguely mystified about what this Prog (the genre) thing even is, while utterly ignoring bands who have more in common with the elements of original Prog (at least on a compositional level) like The Week That Was. It's almost funny to me, as a Prog fan for the last 30 years, that this genre, which was once so universally reviled and mocked has suddenly, for quite a large group, become an important seal of approval. I realize I'm probably tilting at windmills and fighting a losing battle, but to me DT will never be a Prog band. Not that they haven't written a few songs that might qualify, but on the whole, they're still so clearly in the Metal camp that it really surprises me that there's even an argument about this - especially by people who claim to listen more closely to music than your regular Average Joe. Prog is about more than surface elements like structure and arrangement. Or at least it used to be. -------------  
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 23 2010 at 03:20
You've got it ALL wrong |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: February 23 2010 at 03:41
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According to option 3 they are"technically virtuous." Does this make them chaste with taste? Mind you I'd like to hear pog metal. Meshuggah are making an instore near me soon. I wounder if I should ask them if they know? I know this has all been talked to death but that is half the trouble. Art Rock means sophisticated rock. It leaves street music there and moves on. Because some people perceive that sophistication as " you basic rock and rollers are not good enough for us" snobbery then prog rock got a bad rep. Because of what some people thought that other people were not wanting to be when they should be. No wonder it's a mess. Misunderstood by everyone. Probably me too...  At least DT (prog metal) and PT (prog rock) actually progressed rock music that enabled an audience to feel included rather than excluded. Mind you the excluding was mainly the divide and rule approach of the media - then. Perhaps not so much now. So yes, bless DT and PTree they have accomplished socially and musically. Good intentions get good results. Kudo kids! |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: February 23 2010 at 04:01
Thanks for the cogent and thoughtful argument. It certainly made me realize that original Prog was just teeming with repetitive melodies, pentatonic blues patterns and I IV V chord progressions. No, wait... I'm lying. -------------
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