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Topic ClosedGenesis the most influential prog band?
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 12:29
Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

"Here I go again on my own!" Tongue
 
Walking down the only road you've ever known?


 LOLRIGHT!
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Points: 7053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2009 at 14:46
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

"Here I go again on my own!" Tongue
 
Walking down the only road you've ever known?


 LOLRIGHT!
 
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Points: 20 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 16:53
I belive that Progresive Rock by definition must grow on the last 'genre'. King crimson were heavly influenced by jazz, the previous popular medium. Jethro tull was heavly influenced by folk music, ELP by classical, although all prog is to a certain extent influenced by these musical styles. It should not be influenced by a specific band but by the spirt and meaning of the music played by that band. Prog should not look backwards but forwards. It should seek to push the music a step further. What we should be asking is who pushed it furthest. 
When music becomes a commodity, music dies.
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Points: 71 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 17:05
Not. i think is king crimson but the greg lake era
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Points: 214 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2009 at 00:22
Set the controls for the heart of the sun, just had to say that...Anyway, I think Floyd and Genesis were both each huge influences towards Prog...It's just that they each had something different and unique to bring to the table...I love them both to death but I'd give a slight edge to Floyd...and trust me, I am a huge Genesis fan!
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2009 at 15:31
hmmmmmmm thats a hard question. i believe that the two bands have different appeals to people. genesis appeals to people who like classical based prog, and yes appeals to people tho like jazz based prog.
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Points: 1601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2009 at 21:12
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Originally posted by fil karada fil karada wrote:

If we begin to travel to the past we'll see that all music came from the cavemen of course. So I just need to know one thing to answer that question: when does jazz/pop/classical/younameit music becomes prog? If someone tells me that I'll answer.
 
That's exactly what I'm always saying man.  It's like, wow, X band influenced you, but the movement from psych to prog has taken place here, so YOU are the most original ever at prog.  It's just lables, black and white being applied to something that has much variance in colour.  Jazz influenced King Crimson, but the way these people act, that doesn't count because it's not the same genre. 
 
WHO CARES WHO INFLUENCED PROG!  If you want to argue about where the mystic comes into music, try to point your finger at the original psychedelia in the 60's.  Progressive rock is just the continuation of psychedelic music, and it directly crosses over.  In the Court of the Crimson King is an example, it's very much a psychedelic rock album as well as a progressive rock album, the Moody Blues, I don't even know which they lean more towards, it's nothing brand new people.
 
I understand how fristratying this can be for somebody with 67 posts, but after 4 or 5 years here, we need new issues tio discuss, and believe me, there are not many left.
 
I have seen at least 20 fantasy band threads, like 40 about desert islands with all the variations, contests Yes against Genesis, ELP and even Henry Cow or Drean Theater vs Barclay James harvest LOL, hundreeds about which is your favorite sub-genre, your most hated album, and of course several underrated and overrated polls.....All of them are tiresome IMHO.
 
But researching about influences present in some bands, is a quite interesting issue, saying Prog is the continuation of Psychedelia is red¡ucing everything to a minimum, Prog is so rich and vast that the influences are too many.
 
There are lots of Prog bands that have no relation with Psyche,or at the most minimum influence, starting with bands that come from Jazz and metal.
 
I do care to discuss about the most influential bands, it's an interesting issue, at least for me and for 5 pages of members who have replied.
 
Iván
 
But heres the problem, thats what psych music was.  It was transending the generic boundaries and shape of music.  It combined all elements of different types of music, with a lot of cross between east and western music, I'm not saying that some one genre continued to influence progressive music, but it is the same movement.  All these labels people throw around didn't even exist during the times of the music, or at all until people with too much free time on the internet came up with them.
 
And wow, who gives a **** how many posts I have?  I've been having these same kinds of conversations with people for years and years on the internet and not, I just wish people could actually talk about music and sound, rather than words.  But whatever man,  some people care more about that kind of stuff I suppose so I'm just going to stray from these topics.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2009 at 21:45
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

 
But heres the problem, thats what psych music was.  It was transending the generic boundaries and shape of music.  It combined all elements of different types of music, with a lot of cross between east and western music, I'm not saying that some one genre continued to influence progressive music, but it is the same movement.  All these labels people throw around didn't even exist during the times of the music, or at all until people with too much free time on the internet came up with them.
 
This labels conme from before the INTERNET, at least most of them, and are more or less universal (With some exceptions).
 
Most Prog sub-genres (for which aparently you don't care either) don't have Eastern influences, others are not based in jamming as psyche, I believe Psyche is the main influence, but Prog is more than just an appendix or a second phase of Psyche.
 
I believe Prog went much further than Psyche and has different influences also, but it's only my opinion.
 
And wow, who gives a **** how many posts I have? 
 
It was just a comment of something that i believe influenced your aggressive response asking who cares for something we have several pages discussing.
 
Honestly, I don't care for he number of posts of anybody, not even mine, much less your's.
 
I've been having these same kinds of conversations with people for years and years on the internet and not, I just wish people could actually talk about music and sound, rather than words.  But whatever man,  some people care more about that kind of stuff I suppose so I'm just going to stray from these topics.
 
The wisest thing you can do, i avoid Prog metal or Avant threads because I'm not a fan of those genres, and I do it instead of saying "Who cares about Prog Metal?" because there's people who care for this music and that would be a disrespect.
 
Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 17 2009 at 12:52
            
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Points: 1188 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2009 at 14:40
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Can you please name me at least 2 Peter Gabriel clones?
 
Peter Gabriel was a Cat Stevens clone !
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2009 at 14:48
Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Can you please name me at least 2 Peter Gabriel clones?
 
Peter Gabriel was a Cat Stevens clone !


HAH!!!!   hardly.... Cat wore black dresses on stage... he wouldn't be caught dead in a red dress....
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2009 at 15:46
Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Can you please name me at least 2 Peter Gabriel clones?
 
Peter Gabriel was a Cat Stevens clone !
 
Hardly:
 
  1. Cat Stevens and Peter Gabriel started parallel in 1967 (The first recording sessions were on that year and he had already started in The Garden Wall in 1965 with the same style according to Jonathan King, Mike Rutherford, Antony Phillips and Tony Banks), Cat  got really famous only in 1970 with Mona Bon Jakon, but he started in 1966 , so hardly Peter could had copied him.
  2. Cat Stevens is a Folk Troubadour, Peter is a Rock singer
  3. Cat Stevens started as Soloist, Peter Gabriel as part of a band
  4. Cat Stevens uses a narrative style with few changes, while Peter's style is based in changes and yodels.

We all know you hate Genesis Progger, but to make this kind of affirmations, it's better to research first.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 22 2009 at 15:51
            
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 07:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Can you please name me at least 2 Peter Gabriel clones?
 
Peter Gabriel was a Cat Stevens clone !
 
Hardly:
 
  1. Cat Stevens and Peter Gabriel started parallel in 1967 (The first recording sessions were on that year and he had already started in The Garden Wall in 1965 with the same style according to Jonathan King, Mike Rutherford, Antony Phillips and Tony Banks), Cat  got really famous only in 1970 with Mona Bon Jakon, but he started in 1966 , so hardly Peter could had copied him.
  2. Cat Stevens is a Folk Troubadour, Peter is a Rock singer
  3. Cat Stevens started as Soloist, Peter Gabriel as part of a band
  4. Cat Stevens uses a narrative style with few changes, while Peter's style is based in changes and yodels.

We all know you hate Genesis Progger, but to make this kind of affirmations, it's better to research first.

Iván


From Arthur Brown to Peter Gabriel to revelation
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Points: 393 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 12:26
I don't think Genesis is the most influental band at all.
I mean the current Genesis ain't no influental. But, let's
talk about the Genesis' form that consist of Gabriel; Hackett;
Rutherford; Banks; and Collins. These men are the most
influental materials to build the influence of Genesis for
many years. An influence that spread widely to many genre
of musicians.   
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Points: 4 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 15:33
I always thought Genesis were pretty low down in the pecking order of prog popularity, but I do hear their influence in other bands more than any other prog group.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 15:45
oh.. this site is a bastion of easy-listening prog fans.   Definitely a Genesis site if there was one...

if you doubt me.. find me another prog site where members call ELP pompous and overblown....overindulgent hahhaha
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 16:01
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

oh.. this site is a bastion of easy-listening prog fans.   Definitely a Genesis site if there was one...

if you doubt me.. find me another prog site where members call ELP pompous and overblown....overindulgent hahhaha


Now, now. Much as Genesis are, by and large, quite easy to listen to, but that's not why everyone here loves them.

^^^ ages back at the comment that the modern Genesis aren't influential...

They're pretty influential on synthpop WinkLOL (/yes, really Shocked)
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 16:12
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

oh.. this site is a bastion of easy-listening prog fans.   Definitely a Genesis site if there was one...

if you doubt me.. find me another prog site where members call ELP pompous and overblown....overindulgent hahhaha
 
LOL. you won't change micky, Genesis easy listening?
 
I believe Trespass, Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot are far more complex than any Yes album by far, of course not counting The Lamb and Relayer.
 
If you check Progressive Ears polls, you will find that all Genesis albums are at the top except for the year of Close to the Edge.
 
Now to your question......Is ELP Pompous?
 
Yes they are, and what's the problem?
 
Quote

As ELP developed, there were several labels attached to the band like “supergroup,” “overblown,” “pretentious, and “pompous.” Did any of those labels ever bother you?

I think it was all true. I can't deny any of it, it’s all absolutely true. The thing is, when you look at it today, it’s rather ludicrous to say we were pompous, we were overblown. The shows we did then were overblown, but when you consider what’s being done today, all we did at the time was set an industry standard and hope people would improve on it. Unfortunately for the naïve people who are in the music business, they thought it was overblown and it was too big. But compared to what’s happening today, we did absolutely nothing but set a standard.

Yes, we were pompous — we’re English! You have to be pompous. We came from Great Britain. We weren’t a blues band. We weren’t a rock band. We played classical adaptations similar to what I do now. We played folk tunes, we were quite eclectic. We dealt with technology, we didn’t have a guitar player, and we never played 12-bar. Sure, we were pomp because that’s where we come from. We’re not from the South, we’re not from the Mississippi — we’re English! (laughs)

From The Carl Palmer Interview
 
 
This is a review that qualifies their debut qith 8 stars out of 10
 
Quote I was going to have to say that at some point so I might as well get it over with at the start. Now ELP are seen as the very epitome of prog. Pompous, pretentious and crap. Apparently, they used to tour with a separate truck each with their names written on the top and Greg Lake used to stand on an antique Persian rug on-stage and general overbearing stuff like that. To be honest, though, I wasn't alive in the seventies and nor am I a historian of prog so this is all second hand knowledge. I'm sure plenty of other sites go into more detail about these things so I suggest you look elsewhere. I'm just here for the reviews. This is, though, their debut album. And, as such, an all round decent debut
 
 
 
Or:
 
Quote Each ELP album is rated on a one- to five-star scale, except for
Works Live (Montreal) and the "second coming" albums Black Moon,
Live at the RAH, and In the Hot Seat.  Reviewer comments, however,
are quite positive regarding BM and RAH, but there is no commentary
at all on ITHS.  My take is that most die-hard ELP fans would not
argue much with the reviewers' assessments.  But... Words like
"pompous," "excessive," and "disaster" crop up more than once
in these reviews.  As such, sensitive ELP fans may need to restrain
themselves.  I maintain that the overall commentary and review
segments are reasonable and proper.  They are only "critical" in
the sense of being unbiased.  There are plenty of positive comments
along with the negative ones.  All opinions should be heard, even
though we need not agree with them.
 
 
Google the words pompous, overblown and self indulgent with ELP, you will 978 links with my review of tarkus (The only classic ELP album I don't like) on the top LOL http://www.google.com.pe/search?hl=es&q=ELP+POMPOUS+Self+indulgent&meta=
 
Lets face the truth, ELP is pompous, everybody knows that, even themselves, but that's why we love them Pompous is good, I rather listen a pompous band than a simple repetitive and lack of ambition one.
 
Cheers old friend
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 23 2009 at 16:18
            
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 16:19
hahhaa god I love this forum....


and you too Ivan. Heart
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 16:26

I love that Palmer's phrase:

Sure, we were pomp because that’s where we come from. We’re not from the South, we’re not from the Mississippi — we’re English!
 
Pompous as hell LOL
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 23 2009 at 16:27
            
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2009 at 19:46
back from my manly duties ...now...

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

oh.. this site is a bastion of easy-listening prog fans.   Definitely a Genesis site if there was one...

if you doubt me.. find me another prog site where members call ELP pompous and overblown....overindulgent hahhaha
 
LOL. you won't change micky, Genesis easy listening?
 
I believe Trespass, Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot are far more complex than any Yes album by far, of course not counting The Lamb and Relayer.

oh no.. don't go there... you'll sound like like of those teenage twits who measure greatness by how complex it is.  Dionne Warwick hit number 1 on the charts...with a pop song that is as complex metrically ...even more so than anything Gabriel ever tried to sing  Complexity means nothing on this one my friend. Never has when it comes to prog.. most overrated aspect of prog bar none.
 
If you check Progressive Ears polls, you will find that all Genesis albums are at the top except for the year of Close to the Edge.

yeah... look at how many people left this site to go there...  goes to show what I said about PA's being the citadel of Genesis fanboyism... we even export that sh*t LOL
 
Now to your question......Is ELP Pompous?
 
Yes they are, and what's the problem?
 
I have NO problem with it... Hell brother.. I WANT my prog as pompous.. over the top and indulgent as possible.  If I wanted good songwrting.. I'd have stuck to listening to Willie Nelson and now be posting on some Country Western forum and going on about how damned boring Genesis was when compared to a kick ass jam like Whisky River. LOL

The problem my friend.. is when you have people on a prog forum putting down a band for BEING pompous.. overblown.. indulgent.  that reeks of a few too many f**king Camel fans LOL and a few too many who like their prog a bit light in the loafers hahah

 
Cheers old friend
 
Iván



back at ya.. with a micky kiss attached LOL

The big Icky


Edited by micky - February 23 2009 at 19:48
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