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progrupicola 
Forum Newbie 
Joined: May 11 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
 Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:51 |
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Hammill influenced by Gabriel? I think you don't pay any attencion on listening to Mr.Hammill,his voice is like nothing before and sadly after (it's compared to Hendrix on guitar).I like Gabriel for many years and i like his sweet voice but he has nothing to do with the xtreme nature of a Hammill voice.
It's compared to Hendrix on guitar.
Can you think in Gabriel (His way to sing) been respected by Punks?
No way, this is only one example of how edgy Hammill voice can be.
Hammill coul be and angel but a dark demon at the same time.
Do you feel Gabriel like a demon?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:59 |
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Er, who said anything about Hammill influenced by Gabriel because I am as confused as you by such a statement. 
And why is that important to this or any other discussion? Mind, I love Hammill, he's perhaps the most charismatic prog frontman of all time, but why am I supposed to care about how much punks appreciate him or not because the average punk fan does not look at prog the way I or many others on this forum do. |
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el dingo
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 08 2008 Location: Norwich UK Status: Offline Points: 7053 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 08:43 |
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If Peter Hammill was influenced by Gabriel then I am truly about to become what I've always wanted to be... a rabid aardvaark. Mind you, I'm not yer average punk fan. Long live VdGG &, indeed, early Genesis. And the Clash.  Edited by el dingo - February 10 2009 at 08:45 |
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It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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Daniel1974nl
Forum Groupie 
Joined: November 21 2008 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 53 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 09:06 |
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As I think Genesis THE example as what Progressive Rock should be......I have very much problems with answering this question. Its also a question that....one can spend tryping to answer the rest of his life and certainly takes alot more research that we can ever provide. First Genesis themself was greatly influenced by King Crimson,The Nice, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and The Who, or this is atleast what the different members themself have stated in several interviews, books and other way you can make this visible (The black cover of FGTR was a reference to The Beatles White Album, and the somg The Knife was once called The Nice for example). So for me Genesis was one band in a unique row of great progressive Rock bands. Second not so many bands really have copied the complete Genesis sound...like the now famous double drum sound for example...so in my earls only a few bands really should be marked as sounding as Genesis....you all refer to Marillion, but I think much more of a band as IQ, that not only maintained very much the powerfull Genesis sound (Powerfull drumming supported by highly keyboard swollen epic, while alot of bands lend much more on guitar than Genesis ever did), but also the theatrical aspects (anyone who ever saw The Enemy Smacks live Probably know what I mean). All other bands Pendragon's reference to Firth Of Fifth with Breaking The Spell, their homage to Entangled with King Of The Castle, all true but the way Nick Barrett plays is much much more like David Gilmour) Another reference always made is the fact that Rione Stolt is so much influenced by Genesis that even one of his kids is called Gabriel.....that may be true..but his music is much more that a Genesis influence...and often gives away much much Yes / Steve Howe influences, certainly his album The Flower King that right from the beginning gives such a characteristic Yes sound that one cannot draw any other conclusion.
So more bands only borrowed something they like from Genesis....and I think that way we can only say that indeed they did inspire legions of bands.....They did indeed popularise the Mellotron more...They introduced Theatrics in the music and so we can go on......
No matter how much I like Genesis as a band....they were not the most infliential, or atleast we must be extremely cautious with a statement like that.....It takes proof impossible to give and on top of that other bands are much more creditable to get this title....King Crimson to begin with.
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rudo888
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 3 |
Posted: February 10 2009 at 16:06 |
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An interesting concept to think about is who influenced the most influential? Genesis and Crimson come to mind so often. But think of how they both were influenced by the Moody Blues! I'm not a huge Moodies fan, but their influence is pretty huge. I know I am taking this discussion off in a tangent, and I am *NOT* suggesting that the Moody Blues are the most influential Prog band. Just throwing out there an interesting thought...
Give Me 8 Cents, Rudo |
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Visit me at http://www.myspace.com/rudo888
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator 
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 06:49 |
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Cross-fertilised? Both bands signed to Charisma Records, both part of the Charisma Record package tours in the early 70's - who's to say being in each other's presence that wasn't some exchange of "ideas"? Edited by Dick Heath - February 11 2009 at 06:50 |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12812 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 08:01 |
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Concept? Originally Floyd's long music through to Darkside at least , was about prolonging the trippin' fans trips - I had spirtiual friends who knew they were in for several hours mind expanding music and duly fuelled up before departing for those Floyd gigs well into the early 70's ; these guys were not really the exception - hence my personal non-acceptance of Floyd as prog, since they remained psychedelic for a long time. Edited by Dick Heath - February 11 2009 at 12:40 |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:20 |
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Great point Dick.,was about to say something about it, bercause itˇ's absurd to say that a band was influenced by an absolutely coetaneous one.
Genesis and VDGG toured in the same bus for some time, even when Hamill (If I'm not wrong) said that while they were getting high in the back, Gabriel stayed in the fron't row of the bus making crosswords and Tony Banks sleeping, I'm sure there was some exchange of ideas or at least conversations.
But honestly I don't see any remote similarity between Genesis and VDGG, and the similarities between Hammill and Gabriel are because they both have a low and more or less deep vocal range, even when different.
I find a more direct Bowie - Hamill connection than any relation with Peter Gabriel except the natural vocal range.
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Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:22 |
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That's the famous Six Bob Tour along with Lindisfarne
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Rank1
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 26 2008 Status: Offline Points: 53 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:00 |
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I would say King Crimson. Are they not the role model of what a Progressive Rock band should be? Then say what you want, some of the Beatles Psych/ Prog/ Art Rock leanings starting with "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Strawberry Fields Forever", "A Day in the Life" basically opened the doors for Pink Floyd on the charts. Robert Fripp only went prog after hearing "A Day in the Life"
Getting back to King Crimson how many musicians aspire to be Genesis? In terms of musicianship and composition I think King Crimson would be the choice. My opinion it is King Crimson because they became the role model. In a separate argument early influence goes to the Beatles and Pink Floyd.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17510 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:33 |
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Hi,
I would say that Genesis is the least influential prog band ... albeit one of the most listened to ... and certainly not since PG left as it became mostly a pop music band, not even close to prog! Heck, at least Peter could be considered more prog than them based on his experiments and mix of other cultural idioms ... but in the "prog" definition, for some reason we tend to ignore and not accept artists that do hybrid cultural mixes!
Genesis was a great starting point. But it only took someone with a radio to listen to other countries and musics and find many others ... that were way more prog and exciting than Genesis. That's not to say that they were not good ... "Selling England By The Pound" has a special place in my heart! But that is as "prog" as they ever got!
I, personally, find many other bands around that time that were way more experimental and should be considered "prog" that could/would do the term definition a lot more credit and intelligence ... instead of the definition that goes ... "sounds like ... " which is by far the most used measure for this subject.
Kimg Crimson is much more experimental, in that they allowed a lot of individuality, and I think that it was more something that each musician was comfortable with, than it was a "design" or "guided improvisation" (very british in the theaters in those days of the RSC and NT) ... while I can appreciate their first 3 albums, I hardly think they sound more progressive than ... say ... Djam Karet's 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums where the soundscapes off a guitar is more "mind movie" oriented than it is "musically" oriented. And at times, I think that Fripp (and many prog'rs) tend to think that more music, or more academic, is more prog?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:50 |
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Really??
 I thought Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot were more progressive, but what do I know, right!
Prog rock is a musical form, not an ideal. Furthermore, experimentation is not the only criterion of a band's merit, though it is an important one in a genre like prog rock.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:55 |
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^seconded. Foxtrot is as "equal"(that is if you could compare them) in Prog as SEBTP, but I must also include The Lamb, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme.
I don't think experimentalism equals Prog(or proggier). Do you mean innovative also? Well just check the theatrics of Peter, plus the whole symphonic style Genesis created with Yes and ELP, which is the most "popular" sub-genre of Prog Rock. |
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Daniel1974nl
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 21 2008 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 53 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:01 |
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Its generally accepted that Prog as a genre comes out of the more psychedelic corners and that alot of experimental or psychedelic eventually developed into that what we call now prog....but in that time there was not something as such....we only associate certain bands in certain periods and certain albums with that now......but they possibly had no idea that that what they were making was prog....thats only something we made of it....they just followed their inspiration.....and penned down that what was looking to them as workable.....and interesting to try....
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:06 |
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I'd go further, Trespass is one of the most advanced albums for 1970, with different moods, atmospheres and sounds, the radical differences between Dusk, White Mountain anfd the aggressive The Knife are simply impressive.
The album has a dark mysterious mood that was exploited more in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, but few bands were as advanced as Genesis in 1970.
On the other hand, even when SEBTP is full of great songs, the mood is friendly and lighter than in any previous album, two of the racks (More Fool Me and I Know What i Like) had all the attriobutes to be hit singles.
The atmospheric interplay between Banks and Hackett is left behind for a more direct style, not that's a bad album, no way, but if we are talking of Prog masterpieces, I stay with the complexity and mystery of the first three albums after FGTTR.
Iván
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Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:35 |
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Ivan: In fact i dare to say that the mood of the Trespass in never equaled by subsequent albums, to me is a very mysterious album and very mystical
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 20:07 |
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Well, SEBTP is definitely my favourite Genesis album, a desert island album for me
 but the previous three are more progressive and maybe more interesting too. SEBTP is the album of a band well settled in its style, all their forays and discoveries having come to fruition. I also don't think it's necessary that the band's best album must be their most progressive or groundbreaking, though it can often be. I do concur with Ivan and Alberto to the extent that the gap between Trespass - Foxtrot and SEBTP is not as much as people make out to be, it's actually damn hard to choose between them, come to think of it.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 20:11 |
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Completely agree Ivan, primarly because Trespass was my entry to Genesis, and that mysterious dark mood is still untouchable. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:09 |
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I discovered Genesis when listening Frágil (They were a cover band on those days) playing stuff from ATOTT and SEBTP, bought both albums and believed SEBTP was the best thing since the invention of bread. On the other hand, Nursery Cryme and The Lamb, but specially Trespass gave me a lot of work, but when my approach towards Prog grew, I discovered an almost fanatical love for darker music. SEBTP sounded too friendly for me, like a twin brother of ATOTT even when admitting that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, F of F and Cinema Show are excellent tracks, but darker tracks as Musical Box, The Knife and Watcher of the skies captured my taste more. The great jump between FGTTR to Trespass is simply incredible, they sound mature, aggressive and harder than post Foxtrot music, this dark atmosphere was better developed when Hackett joined and made the perfect couple with Banks, but this interplay seems to vanish a bit in SEBTP. Love all the albums of Gabriel era and Collins albums until W&W, but the first three Prog albums of the band are something out of this world for me, while all the Prog bands focused on individual performance and personal virtuosism, Genesis members seemed to worry more in the band's sound than in their personal success. It's amazing how people ignored the immense level of Hackett until he left the band, not because he did a bad job with Genesis, by the contrary, he did what Genesis required, to enhance the atmospheric sound and blend his guitar with Tony's keyboard to create a special sound almost as a new instrument. Guys as Rutherford and Banks, almost hiding behind the speakers and keyboard, only worrying of giving what the band required, Genesis was a band with one face, Peter Gabriel, and a bit of help of Phil in this field. Just look at my signature, Rutheford and hackett are almost invisible, while Tony is on one extreme with his face only on the keys,
Lets admit it, Prog musicians are famous for their egos, and very few would had accepted to be almost in the shadows, but most Genesis members did it..
That's what I like from Genesis, they were a team, more than a collection of individualist musicians, trying to overshadow the rest as in most prog bands. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 11 2009 at 21:12 |
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valravennz
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: March 20 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 2546 |
Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:23 |
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^ Well said, Ivan. Perhaps a case in point, though slightly of topic is ELP whose members were well known for their ego self-preening. One can not see that so much with Genesis, although I think PG liked the limelight a lot more than the other band members... his overtness in dress a strong indicator don't you think?
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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
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Genesis the most influential prog band?
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progrupicola wrote: