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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 00:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



I would disagree also about the virtuosity v/s teamwork part, I think most of the classic prog bands we love were good teams, great in fact. Yes, KC, Gentle Giant they all worked together well...in fact Pink Floyd is perhaps an even better example than even Genesis of teamwork allowing them to scale heights well beyond the limits dictated by their technical facilities.  I would say only ELP were indulgent but they usually managed to cobble together the disparate jams in a way that made sense in a weird way, which is why they are not criticized as much as they otherwise might have been.
 
Never said Genesis lacked of technical facilities, they learned how to leave their virtuosism in favour ogf the band.
 
Now, about teamwork, i'm not saying that most of the bands didn't worked because they were not a team, I say that most of the bands based more their musical output in their virtuosism and itr worked for them,
 
King Crimson is Fripp and anybody else as Jethro Tull with Ian.
 
Yes worked as a team, but valued personal abilities in more degree than Genesis, take for example the title track of Close to the Edge, you take the Wakeman solo and you still have a good track, not fantastic, but very good, you can't take a single keyboard note of almost any Genesis track, because you ruin the whole song, and even worst, if you take Hackett or Banks from any early track it will never be the same.
 
Lets remember how many personal problems Yes had:
  1. Bruford left because Squire in part.
  2. Wakeman left i don't remember how many times
  3. Howe left because of Rabin
  4. Now Jon has problems with some members.
  5. There were two Yes working simultaneously
Only one original Yes member has been in all the albums (Squire), and always sounded great on stage no matter how many original members were on the band.
 
So I believe this bands had ego problems.
 
Genesis found their perfect lineup (previously lost Phillips because his stage panic), the whole band regret it, Peter left for personal problems and Steve because lack of composition chances, but none of them (Except Ant) was replaced, and the sound of the band changed dramatically.
 
Genesis was a well oiled machine, lost two parts and had to change dramatically, no matter how many changes Yes, King Crimson or tull had, they always managed to sound almost as well.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 23:33
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

I discovered Genesis when listening Frágil (They were a cover band on those days) playing stuff from ATOTT and SEBTP, bought both albums and believed SEBTP was the best thing since the invention of bread.

On the other hand, Nursery Cryme and The Lamb, but specially Trespass gave me a lot of work, but when my approach towards Prog grew, I discovered an almost fanatical love for darker music.

SEBTP sounded too friendly for me, like a twin brother of ATOTT even when admitting that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, F of F and Cinema Show are excellent tracks, but darker tracks as Musical Box, The Knife and Watcher of the skies captured my taste more.

The great jump between FGTTR to Trespass is simply incredible, they sound mature, aggressive and harder than post Foxtrot music, this dark atmosphere was better developed when Hackett joined and made the perfect couple with Banks, but this interplay seems to vanish a bit in SEBTP.

Love all the albums of Gabriel era and Collins albums until W&W, but the first three Prog albums of the band are something out of this world for me, while all the Prog bands focused on individual performance and personal virtuosism, Genesis members seemed to worry more in the band's sound than in their personal success.

It's amazing how people ignored the immense level of Hackett until he left the band, not because he did a bad job with Genesis, by the contrary, he did what Genesis required, to enhance the atmospheric sound and blend his guitar with Tony's keyboard to create a special sound almost as a new instrument.

Guys as Rutherford and Banks, almost hiding behind the speakers and keyboard, only worrying of giving what the band required, Genesis was a band with one face, Peter Gabriel, and a bit of help of Phil in this field.

Just look at my signature, Rutheford and hackett are almost invisible, while Tony is on one extreme with his face only on the keys,
 
Lets admit it, Prog musicians are famous for their egos, and very few would had accepted to be almost in the shadows, but most Genesis members did it..

That's what I like from Genesis, they were a team, more than a collection of individualist musicians, trying to overshadow the rest as in most prog bands.

Iván


Agree with almost every word, though I think Banks/Hackett/Rutherford staying away may have had more to do with their shyness - a lot of musicians are introverts - than a lack of ego.  Though, going by the number of sessions musicians Hackett involved in his solo albums, I guess he for one is not egoistic, don't know about the other two.  All said, I still love SEBTP more LOL, it's not that I cannot see that there is so much more mystery and more authentic pastoral beauty in the previous three albums. And if I was taken away in the night for a time travel journey and allowed to watch that Musical Box performance of which there is a video on the Genesis page here, I would shed copious tears of joy, I would probably die of ectasy!  But all said, there's still something indescribable that makes me like SEBTP jut that little bit more, what do we say in such situations in the internet - "It's just me!" LOL  So it must be. 

I would disagree also about the virtuosity v/s teamwork part, I think most of the classic prog bands we love were good teams, great in fact. Yes, KC, Gentle Giant they all worked together well...in fact Pink Floyd is perhaps an even better example than even Genesis of teamwork allowing them to scale heights well beyond the limits dictated by their technical facilities.  I would say only ELP were indulgent but they usually managed to cobble together the disparate jams in a way that made sense in a weird way, which is why they are not criticized as much as they otherwise might have been.
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Points: 2546 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:39
^ Thanks for the explanation Ivan - I stand corrected re: Peter's overt stage appearance. You have reminded me of an article or post re: Peter's shyness that I had read sometime ago. CheersSmile

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:32
^^^
 
By the contrary Valravennz, people who know him, starting by Jonathan King and Tony Banks said that Peter is a very shy guy, just watch the Belgium TV concert, the guy draws an imaginary 1 square meter spot, from which he hardly moves and has the hands crossed as defending himself during long pasages  of the presentation.
 
It's  also well known that in their first tours, Peter hardly talked with the public, Anthony Phillips had that role and he developed stage panic, so Peter started to talk, but there were long periods of silence while the band tuned the instruments, so he started with the stories, which are an impersional way of connecting with the audience, telling something imaginary.
.
Only when he started to use costumes and hide his face, he got stage control, IMO it was a way of hidding himself.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 11 2009 at 22:15
            
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Points: 2546 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:23
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Well, SEBTP is definitely my favourite Genesis album, a desert island album for me Smile but the previous three are more progressive and maybe more interesting too.  SEBTP is the album of a band well settled in its style, all their forays and discoveries having come to fruition.  I also don't think it's necessary that the band's best album must be their most progressive or groundbreaking, though it can often be.  I do concur with Ivan and Alberto to the extent that the gap between Trespass - Foxtrot and SEBTP is not as much as people make out to be, it's actually damn hard to choose between them, come to think of it.
 

I discovered Genesis when listening Frágil (They were a cover band on those days) playing stuff from ATOTT and SEBTP, bought both albums and believed SEBTP was the best thing since the invention of bread.

On the other hand, Nursery Cryme and The Lamb, but specially Trespass gave me a lot of work, but when my approach towards Prog grew, I discovered an almost fanatical love for darker music.

SEBTP sounded too friendly for me, like a twin brother of ATOTT even when admitting that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, F of F and Cinema Show are excellent tracks, but darker tracks as Musical Box, The Knife and Watcher of the skies captured my taste more.

The great jump between FGTTR to Trespass is simply incredible, they sound mature, aggressive and harder than post Foxtrot music, this dark atmosphere was better developed when Hackett joined and made the perfect couple with Banks, but this interplay seems to vanish a bit in SEBTP.

Love all the albums of Gabriel era and Collins albums until W&W, but the first three Prog albums of the band are something out of this world for me, while all the Prog bands focused on individual performance and personal virtuosism, Genesis members seemed to worry more in the band's sound than in their personal success.

It's amazing how people ignored the immense level of Hackett until he left the band, not because he did a bad job with Genesis, by the contrary, he did what Genesis required, to enhance the atmospheric sound and blend his guitar with Tony's keyboard to create a special sound almost as a new instrument.

Guys as Rutherford and Banks, almost hiding behind the speakers and keyboard, only worrying of giving what the band required, Genesis was a band with one face, Peter Gabriel, and a bit of help of Phil in this field.

Just look at my signature, Rutheford and hackett are almost invisible, while Tony is on one extreme with his face only on the keys,
 
Lets admit it, Prog musicians are famous for their egos, and very few would had accepted to be almost in the shadows, but most Genesis members did it..

That's what I like from Genesis, they were a team, more than a collection of individualist musicians, trying to overshadow the rest as in most prog bands.

Iván
 
^ Well said, Ivan. Perhaps a case in point, though slightly of topic is ELP whose members were well known for their ego self-preening. One can not see that so much with Genesis, although I think PG liked the limelight a lot more than the other band members... his overtness in dress a strong indicator don't you think? Smile

"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 21:09
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Well, SEBTP is definitely my favourite Genesis album, a desert island album for me Smile but the previous three are more progressive and maybe more interesting too.  SEBTP is the album of a band well settled in its style, all their forays and discoveries having come to fruition.  I also don't think it's necessary that the band's best album must be their most progressive or groundbreaking, though it can often be.  I do concur with Ivan and Alberto to the extent that the gap between Trespass - Foxtrot and SEBTP is not as much as people make out to be, it's actually damn hard to choose between them, come to think of it.
 

I discovered Genesis when listening Frágil (They were a cover band on those days) playing stuff from ATOTT and SEBTP, bought both albums and believed SEBTP was the best thing since the invention of bread.

On the other hand, Nursery Cryme and The Lamb, but specially Trespass gave me a lot of work, but when my approach towards Prog grew, I discovered an almost fanatical love for darker music.

SEBTP sounded too friendly for me, like a twin brother of ATOTT even when admitting that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, F of F and Cinema Show are excellent tracks, but darker tracks as Musical Box, The Knife and Watcher of the skies captured my taste more.

The great jump between FGTTR to Trespass is simply incredible, they sound mature, aggressive and harder than post Foxtrot music, this dark atmosphere was better developed when Hackett joined and made the perfect couple with Banks, but this interplay seems to vanish a bit in SEBTP.

Love all the albums of Gabriel era and Collins albums until W&W, but the first three Prog albums of the band are something out of this world for me, while all the Prog bands focused on individual performance and personal virtuosism, Genesis members seemed to worry more in the band's sound than in their personal success.

It's amazing how people ignored the immense level of Hackett until he left the band, not because he did a bad job with Genesis, by the contrary, he did what Genesis required, to enhance the atmospheric sound and blend his guitar with Tony's keyboard to create a special sound almost as a new instrument.

Guys as Rutherford and Banks, almost hiding behind the speakers and keyboard, only worrying of giving what the band required, Genesis was a band with one face, Peter Gabriel, and a bit of help of Phil in this field.

Just look at my signature, Rutheford and hackett are almost invisible, while Tony is on one extreme with his face only on the keys,
 
Lets admit it, Prog musicians are famous for their egos, and very few would had accepted to be almost in the shadows, but most Genesis members did it..

That's what I like from Genesis, they were a team, more than a collection of individualist musicians, trying to overshadow the rest as in most prog bands.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 11 2009 at 21:12
            
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

^seconded. Foxtrot is as "equal"(that is if you could compare them) in Prog as SEBTP, but I must also include The Lamb, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme.

I don't think experimentalism equals Prog(or proggier). Do you mean innovative also? Well just check the theatrics of Peter, plus the whole symphonic style Genesis created with Yes and ELP, which is the most "popular" sub-genre of Prog Rock.
 
I'd go further, Trespass is one of the most advanced albums for 1970,  with different moods, atmospheres and sounds, the radical differences between Dusk, White Mountain anfd the aggressive The Knife are simply impressive.
 
The album has a dark mysterious mood that was exploited more in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, but few bands were as advanced as Genesis in 1970.
 
On the other hand, even when SEBTP is full of great songs, the mood is friendly and lighter than in any previous album, two of the racks (More Fool Me and I Know What i Like) had all the attriobutes to be hit singles.
 
The atmospheric interplay between Banks and Hackett is left behind for a more direct style, not that's a bad album, no way, but if we are talking of Prog masterpieces, I stay with the complexity and mystery of the first three albums after FGTTR.
 
Iván


Completely agree Ivan, primarly because Trespass was my entry to Genesis, and that mysterious dark mood is still untouchable.


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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 20:07
Well, SEBTP is definitely my favourite Genesis album, a desert island album for me Smile but the previous three are more progressive and maybe more interesting too.  SEBTP is the album of a band well settled in its style, all their forays and discoveries having come to fruition.  I also don't think it's necessary that the band's best album must be their most progressive or groundbreaking, though it can often be.  I do concur with Ivan and Alberto to the extent that the gap between Trespass - Foxtrot and SEBTP is not as much as people make out to be, it's actually damn hard to choose between them, come to think of it.
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:35
Ivan: In fact i dare to say that the mood of the Trespass  in never equaled by subsequent albums, to me is a very mysterious album and very mystical




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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:06
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

^seconded. Foxtrot is as "equal"(that is if you could compare them) in Prog as SEBTP, but I must also include The Lamb, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme.

I don't think experimentalism equals Prog(or proggier). Do you mean innovative also? Well just check the theatrics of Peter, plus the whole symphonic style Genesis created with Yes and ELP, which is the most "popular" sub-genre of Prog Rock.
 
I'd go further, Trespass is one of the most advanced albums for 1970,  with different moods, atmospheres and sounds, the radical differences between Dusk, White Mountain anfd the aggressive The Knife are simply impressive.
 
The album has a dark mysterious mood that was exploited more in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, but few bands were as advanced as Genesis in 1970.
 
On the other hand, even when SEBTP is full of great songs, the mood is friendly and lighter than in any previous album, two of the racks (More Fool Me and I Know What i Like) had all the attriobutes to be hit singles.
 
The atmospheric interplay between Banks and Hackett is left behind for a more direct style, not that's a bad album, no way, but if we are talking of Prog masterpieces, I stay with the complexity and mystery of the first three albums after FGTTR.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 53 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 11:01
Its generally accepted that Prog as a genre comes out of the more psychedelic corners and that alot of experimental or psychedelic eventually developed into that what we call now prog....but in that time there was not something as such....we only associate certain bands in certain periods and certain albums with that now......but they possibly had no idea that that what they were making was prog....thats only something we made of it....they just followed their inspiration.....and penned down that what was looking to them as workable.....and interesting to try....
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:55
^seconded. Foxtrot is as "equal"(that is if you could compare them) in Prog as SEBTP, but I must also include The Lamb, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme.

I don't think experimentalism equals Prog(or proggier). Do you mean innovative also? Well just check the theatrics of Peter, plus the whole symphonic style Genesis created with Yes and ELP, which is the most "popular" sub-genre of Prog Rock.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Genesis was a great starting point. But it only took someone with a radio to listen to other countries and musics and find many others ... that were way more prog and exciting than Genesis. That's not to say that they were not good ... "Selling England By The Pound" has a special place in my heart! But that is as "prog" as they ever got!

Really?? Shocked  I thought Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot were more progressive, but what do I know, right!
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 I, personally, find many other bands around that time that were way more experimental and should be considered "prog" that could/would do the term definition a lot more credit and intelligence ... instead of the definition that goes ... "sounds like ... " which is by far the most used measure for this subject.

Prog rock is a musical form, not an ideal.  Furthermore, experimentation is not the only criterion of a band's merit, though it is an important one in a genre like prog rock.
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Points: 17510 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:33
Hi,
 
I would say that Genesis is the least influential prog band ... albeit one of the most listened to ... and certainly not since PG left as it became mostly a pop music band, not even close to prog! Heck, at least Peter could be considered more prog than them based on his experiments and mix of other cultural idioms ... but in the "prog" definition, for some reason we tend to ignore and not accept artists that do hybrid cultural mixes!
 
Genesis was a great starting point. But it only took someone with a radio to listen to other countries and musics and find many others ... that were way more prog and exciting than Genesis. That's not to say that they were not good ... "Selling England By The Pound" has a special place in my heart! But that is as "prog" as they ever got!
 
I, personally, find many other bands around that time that were way more experimental and should be considered "prog" that could/would do the term definition a lot more credit and intelligence ... instead of the definition that goes ... "sounds like ... " which is by far the most used measure for this subject.
 
Kimg Crimson is much more experimental, in that they allowed a lot of individuality, and I think that it was more something that each musician was comfortable with, than it was a "design" or "guided improvisation" (very british in the theaters in those days of the RSC and NT) ... while I can appreciate their  first 3 albums, I hardly think they sound more progressive than ... say ... Djam Karet's 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums where the soundscapes off a guitar is more "mind movie" oriented than it is "musically" oriented. And at times, I think that Fripp (and many prog'rs) tend to think that more music, or more academic, is more prog?
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Points: 53 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 10:00
 I would say King Crimson. Are they not the role model of what a Progressive Rock band should be? Then say what you want, some of the Beatles Psych/ Prog/ Art Rock leanings starting with "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Strawberry Fields Forever", "A Day in the Life" basically opened the doors for Pink Floyd on the charts. Robert Fripp only went prog after hearing "A Day in the Life"

 

Getting back to King Crimson how many musicians aspire to be Genesis? In terms of musicianship and composition I think King Crimson would be the choice.  My opinion it is King Crimson because they became the role model. In a separate argument early influence goes to the Beatles and Pink Floyd.

 

 
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:22
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
 
 
 
Cross-fertilised? Both bands signed to Charisma Records, both part of the Charisma Record package tours in the early 70's  - who's to say being in each other's presence that wasn't some exchange of "ideas"?
 
Great point Dick.,was about to say something about it, bercause itˇ's absurd to say that a band was influenced by an absolutely coetaneous one.
 
Genesis and VDGG toured in the same bus for some time, even when Hamill (If I'm not wrong) said that while they were getting high in the back, Gabriel stayed in the fron't row of the bus making crosswords and Tony Banks sleeping, I'm sure there was some exchange of ideas or at least conversations.
 
But honestly I don't see any remote similarity between Genesis and VDGG, and the similarities between Hammill and Gabriel are because they both have a low and more or less deep vocal range, even when different.
 
I find a more direct Bowie - Hamill connection than any relation with Peter Gabriel except the natural vocal range.
 
That's the famous Six Bob Tour along with Lindisfarne




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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 09:20
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
 
 
 
Cross-fertilised? Both bands signed to Charisma Records, both part of the Charisma Record package tours in the early 70's  - who's to say being in each other's presence that wasn't some exchange of "ideas"?
 
Great point Dick.,was about to say something about it, bercause itˇ's absurd to say that a band was influenced by an absolutely coetaneous one.
 
Genesis and VDGG toured in the same bus for some time, even when Hamill (If I'm not wrong) said that while they were getting high in the back, Gabriel stayed in the fron't row of the bus making crosswords and Tony Banks sleeping, I'm sure there was some exchange of ideas or at least conversations.
 
But honestly I don't see any remote similarity between Genesis and VDGG, and the similarities between Hammill and Gabriel are because they both have a low and more or less deep vocal range, even when different.
 
I find a more direct Bowie - Hamill connection than any relation with Peter Gabriel except the natural vocal range.
            
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 08:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by SunJester SunJester wrote:

No.  Pink Floyd were (and continue to be) the most influential prog band.  They were unique.  Heavy and soft at the same time.  They had complex music that was decades ahead of most bands. And they stood by the whole "Concept" album thing from start to finish. 
 
As far as i know, pink Floyd music was not among the most complex,to the point that many here say they were never Prog (Something with what I disagree), but that means nothing, they were outstanding
 
 
 
 
Concept? Originally Floyd's long  music through to Darkside at least , was about prolonging  the trippin' fans trips - I had spirtiual friends who knew they were in for several hours mind expanding music and duly fuelled up before departing for those Floyd gigs well into the early 70's ; these guys were not really the exception -  hence my personal non-acceptance of Floyd as prog, since they remained psychedelic for a long time.


Edited by Dick Heath - February 11 2009 at 12:40
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2009 at 06:49
Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Hammill influenced by Gabriel?
 
 
 
Cross-fertilised? Both bands signed to Charisma Records, both part of the Charisma Record package tours in the early 70's  - who's to say being in each other's presence that wasn't some exchange of "ideas"?


Edited by Dick Heath - February 11 2009 at 06:50
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Points: 3 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2009 at 16:06
An interesting concept to think about is who influenced the most influential?  Genesis and Crimson come to mind so often.  But think of how they both were influenced by the Moody Blues!  I'm not a huge Moodies fan, but their influence is pretty huge.  I know I am taking this discussion off in a tangent, and I am *NOT* suggesting that the Moody Blues are the most influential Prog band.  Just throwing out there an interesting thought...

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