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Ricochet 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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 Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:13 |
Well, let's see: One Collaborator strongly supporting the addition Several others Collaborators having built already their case against the addition "Ping-pong" replying already taking place Arguments continuously forming (but good -?- humour too, along the way...) Almost 40 posts already Mmm...It won't take long for this thread to join 'Stranglers' and "Metallica"...All we need now is Cert...(but is he into Tori Amos?  ) 
Edited by Ricochet - November 01 2008 at 16:14
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:52 |
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of course.. .that is what we did with the Stranglers... but if the team had accepted it.. we would have added them.. regardless if no sites anywhere listed them.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:44 |
 micky wrote:
that's why I'm around  but the jury already left on this case and is kicked back on the sofa watching the big game... that is what we have genre teams for.. otherwise we'd just add what other sites do.. and not add what others don't, The other sites can be a guide.. but have nothing to do with what we do here. Period. |
 Micky, nobody telling to do what other sites do, but the rules of Prog Archives force us to verify in other sites, you know me better than that, we rejected a lot of bands that were on other sites and added a few controversial ones, but if you remember, even without rule (then) we required a full agreement to add them.
But now is a mandatory rule, if an artist is not include.in at least two representative PROG sites -..we require unanimous vote of the whole team to add him/her.
I don't place the rules.
Iván
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:34 |
that's why I'm around but the jury already left on this case and is kicked back on the sofa watching the big game... that is what we have genre teams for.. otherwise we'd just add what other sites do.. and not add what others don't, The other sites can be a guide.. but have nothing to do with what we do here. Period.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Raff, but not even the INCLUSIVE Prog sites have her.
BTW: The rules say that if a band or artist is not in two PROG sites, should be considered CONTROVERSIAL and would require the unanimous vote of all the members, so I'm not the oone using other sites, the rules of Prog Archives force us to verify if a band is there or not.
So, I use other sites not to include, but to exclude.
Cheers Raff, missed our discussions.
Iván |
Well, people have told me I could've been a lawyer, but I could never out-argue you ...
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:31 |
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Raff's point is a true one... each site has it's own character.. it's own standards.. and is foolish to compare what each site has versus each other... .though I wouldn't mind... would love to see Coltrane and Brubeck here as another prog site does. Wonder if we can't have what others don't... means we have what others have...
hmmmm
Edited by micky - November 01 2008 at 15:31
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:30 |
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I tried to copy the link and post it here, but it is not possible... Anyway, I am talking about one of the major prog sites, one who attracts many posters from here too. Not making things up.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:29 |
Yes Raff, but not even the INCLUSIVE Prog sites have her.
BTW: The rules say that if a band or artist is not in two PROG sites, should be considered CONTROVERSIAL and would require the unanimous vote of all the members, so I'm not the oone using other sites, the rules of Prog Archives force us to verify if a band is there or not.
So, I use other sites not to include, but to exclude.
Cheers Raff, missed our discussions.
Iván
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UMUR
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 3069
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:27 |
I love Napalm Death but wouldn´t suggest them on a prog site . It´s not so long ago I saw them live with Suffocation. Great concert.
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Raff
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:22 |
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Ivan, I have no stakes in this addition (though I like Tori), but if I were you, I'd be careful about bringing up other prog sites, because in general they are much more inclusive than we are. I would recommend you have a look at some of their databases, and see what kind of artists they have there. I've seen Bob Dylan and Napalm Death on one of them, and too many to mention on another. Not naming any names though, since we are in public, but ready to provide the evidence.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:11 |
UMUR wrote:
I think it´s an indication that too many prog heads still live in the seventies and can´t recognise progressive tendencies in contemporary music.
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What does thids means?
That you are thre only enlighted and every Prog site and pìece of Prog literature is wrong?
About modern tendencies? We add more modern band in one week than most people outside the teams have done in their entire lifes, so don't say we don't accept modern tendencies,. What we don't accept is non Prog bands being added because everybody has his favorite artist and wants to review him/her here.
If an artist in a decade has not been included in any Prog site is because in 99.9999999% of the cases is not Prog or Prog Related.
Iván
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:39 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ so would I!
On a more general website like PF though ... I think that these albums might score a progressive approach level of around 5 ... even if more people participate (she only has 7 album ratings so far).
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yeah ..that is the sh*t sandwich we eat that comes with nice tags and standing on the cutting edge of the site. We do.. and have been very careful with the groups we do eval Mike. Because the prog quotient.. the progressive level you speak of... is a hard thing to judge.. try judging it against the symphonic dinosaurs and they get about a zero in traditional prog terms. And as I aluded to above ..many do judge modern acts on outdated models and ideas of prog. This is not a site devoted to 70's prog.. so what is here is not GOING to sound or be like the traditional prog. So we are very...very cautious with additions. Far more than most give us credit for. Steely Dan, for example yet we covered our bases.. or in non-PC terms.. covered our asses it was a no brainer.. they are listed on two other major sites but had the approval of the owner... and the site's experts on J-R.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:28 |
^ so would I! On a more general website like PF though ... I think that these albums might score a progressive approach level of around 5 ... even if more people participate (she only has 7 album ratings so far).
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:20 |
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then like the Stranglers Mike.. we reject it...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:17 |
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^ what if it's not prog enough for Crossover Prog ... something like "Crossover-Prog Related"? But I agree that Crossover Prog is the most appropriate genre, style-wise.
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micky
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Points: 46833
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:14 |
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interesting discussion.... thus I guess we can say... Ms. Amos is under eval....
my personal thoughts...to help steer the discussion in positive terms.... since I sense a recurring theme here in groups that tend to fall under the Crossover purview...
whether you agree or not about the existence of the sub-genre... it is here... others do not have it. We were probably the first site to really recognize what UMUR is talking about there... that prog and contemporary music.. or pop music if you want to call it that are not mutually exclusive.
I don't care..the site doesn't care.... if you agree or disagree with that premise.. the question is... the site has it.. and has an established set of artists which define it in a way...
the question is.. not what you personally think if she is prog or not... christ.. we all have 50 thousand different notions of it. The question is.. .does she.. or any group fit what the site has established as our guidelines... what this site acknowledges to be worthy of including here.
to be honest to some whom I really respect... if you don't think Radiohead belongs here.. or is not prog.. you are not going to like or agree with much of anything that is under discussion for this sub hahahha. What helps the dicussion are those who recognize this is now an established branch of progressive rock. As an admin noted not long after the site established it... the term Crossover started being used across the internet. We are not making sh*t up... we just call them as we see them. We all see things differently... try looking at it from our standpoint.. our perspective. We have a job to do... help us by recognizing what we are really trying to do with these evals.
Edited by micky - November 01 2008 at 14:15
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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UMUR
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 3069
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 13:23 |
I think it´s an indication that too many prog heads still live in the seventies and can´t recognise progressive tendencies in contemporary music. I´m sure that if you listen a bit more closely you´ll find plenty of interesting musical structures in Tori Amos music which isn´t tradionally vers/ chorus build on all songs. Lots of little changes in the songs that only occur once and of course her way of thinking about music, which is very progressive. Common man ! this site isn´t only for Genesis and Yes now is it ? Isn´t the genres prog related and crossover prog created to include artists who have progressive tendencies or as you mentioned meant a lot to the development of progressive music even though they are not directly progressive. I´ll mention bands like 10CC and Queen here. But there are many who could be added to that list. All deserving a place on PA IMO. ( actually I´ve found very few bands here that I didn´t think belonged here. Right now I can only think of two and that´s a pretty good average. I will use this opertunity to give a hand/ thanks to the clever genre teams, even though I have my battles once in a while  )
It´s fine that you don´t think Tori Amos has made an impact on progressive music. That´s your opinion. I think we are a couple who disagree with that statement though. Crossover or Prog related I don´t care much but I think she belongs here because her music has progressive tendencies. As I understand it this site tries to include and document anything which are progressve and that includes contemporary music with progressive tendencies. Or am I wrong ?
I´m not sure what you mean by adult contemporary ? If you´re trying to compare Tori Amos with everty other American piano playing female singer/ songwriter, you´re dead wrong. She is a far more sophisticated creature than most other artists in that genre ( just like Kate Bush is). There is a reason she has survived almost twenty years on the scene and that´s because she is unique and always trying to do something new with her sound. Innovative in other words.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 12:51 |
It's amazing to see the desperation for adding remolety related aerists (even if that), as if it was a priority for Prog Archives.
People talk about Tori Amos voice, yes, she's good, but so Dolores O'Riordan or Stevie Niclks.
Her Piano performance: I'm sure Richard Clayderman has much better technique, but not here either.
But her music is only adult contemporary, noithing remotely related with Prog, lets worry for Prog artists, we have hundreds to add, I believe Prog Related is for artists who have a huge contribution or connection with Pog but their music is not Prog enough, she doesn't fit.
People is here for their COMPOSITION and MUSICAL STRUCTURE, not because they have an excellent voice, play an instrument with dexterity or have spiritual connections with Prog Related artists.
Tori Amos has done nothing for Prog, her influences are not Prog, she has influenced no Prog artist, she has her own genre and public who love her, let her stay there.
If this wasn't enough, even after a decade in the market, no Prog site has added her, isn't that indicative of something?
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 01 2008 at 12:53
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 3069
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 12:35 |
I think people should take a listen to the beautiful and challenging Piano and hapsichord playing on Boys for Pele. I consider both her appoach to singing and her piano and hapsichord playing to be progressive and well worth and inclusion on PA.
Under the Pink is great too by the way.
If you´re not convinced. Go see her live show. She´s a vulgar diva for sure and what she does to her compositions in a live environment is definitely innovative. A real unique artist ( well of course we all know the connection to Kate Bush, but it doesn´t bother me).
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 11:05 |
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^ I never listened to that album in full, I shall do so again. My favorite is Under the Pink, which is much more experimental. I wouldn't exactly call it Prog, but I can certainly understand why people suggest it for addition.
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Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives
