Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53018
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 17:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives
Posted By: Menswear
Subject: Tori Amos-Deserves to be in Prograchives
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:01
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Tori Amos is the queen of the concept albums, she released many albums that tells storys, she even impersonate many characters in the record!
Her piano virtuosity is lengendary, although the songs are never over 6 minutes long. On the other hand, she excels at little interludes that separates the chapters or segments of the record.
Concept albums by Tori AMos:
-Boys for Pele---creepy but multi-segmentary album divided in 5 pieces
-Scarlet's Walk--a tour of America state by state and clearly identified in the booklet
-The Beekeeper--19 songs divided in 6 different garden with their own ambience and story
-American Doll Posse--full fledge concept album through 5 differents characters, with tons of material, interludes and attitude
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Replies:
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:03
| Didn't Frank Sinatra release concept albums as well? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:06
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I'd put her here. For me she really filled the void left when Kate Bush took that long long break from music.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Menswear
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:14
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If Kate Bush has been accepted, why not her spiritual daughter Tori Amos? Her piano skills are lengendary and she has plenty of concept albums. Although she's not into long songs (never over 6 minutes), she excels at seperating the chapters of her stories with songs like mini-interludes. How's that for a prog-related artist? concept albums:
-Boys for Pele (1996): creepy, angry album with interludes introducing the chapters
-Scarlet's Walk (2000): a tour of America state by state, with interludes and opinions
-The Beekeeper (2005): 19 songs divided into 6 gardens with their ambience and style
-American Doll Posse (2007): full fledge concept albums, with 5 different characters with their own stories and their own personnalities
I've been pushing Tori Amos for a while and with this list, I think she deserves a place in the Prog Related category.
Enjoy a marginal, foxy lady with exceptional piano skills and a divine voice.
I Kate Bush made it, I just don't know why she's not here already?!?
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:30
Maybe if you start enough Tori Amos threads someone will relent and let her in. 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:37
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wasn't really familiar with her stuff until someone suggested her sometime last year and boned her. She belongs here me thinks. great stuff. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:38
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Menswear: Since there was useful discussion in the following thread (and it's not locked), perhaps you should add your post to it: Topic: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45959 - I suggest Tori Amos Forum: forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 18:57
I kinda liked my idea better.
Did I read that right?  Hell, I'd like to bone her myself. An an unrelated note, my old dog is named after her.  |
micky wrote:Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 01:31
And then Fiona Apple! And then Shannon Wright! And then Mary Timony (AllMusic does describe her as having "prog rock" influences!)!!!!! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 02:16
Again this argument if X why not Y?....Please, she has been suggested and rejected several times since 2006, because she has no relation with Prog.
BTW: Having concept albums is not Prog necesarilly (The Bee Gees released Odessa before almost any Prog artist made a concept album and not Prog by any means), she's an Adult Contemporary or Singer Singwritter artist...And what relation with prog is being a spritual daughter of a Prog Related artist?
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 02:32
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she is one of the great songwriters of her time and her classical background is impeccable.. I'd say no, but it's close |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 03:13
WHAT?!??   |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 04:58
You forgot to mention To Venus and Back followed after Boys For Pele. I am unfamilar with her 2007 release but whilst Beekeeper is a concept album, I do not think it would help her addition to PA. Overall though I believe Tori Amos belongs in the archives for the aforementioned albums. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 06:08
Wait, I get it now, he was just saying that Tori got boned at least once last year. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 06:20
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While her addition is pondered here, I invite you all to rate and tag here albums at PF: http://progfreak.com/Tori-Amos,_dbe,artists,_auto_7099595.xhtml - http://progfreak.com/Tori-Amos,_dbe,artists,_auto_7099595.xhtml  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 06:29
Just for Boys for Pele she deserves to be here IMO. Have any of you critics listened to that album from start to end. I´m sure you´ll understand why Tori belongs on PA after that. Such a great and innovative artist. The Prog related catagory should definitely have a place for her. She gets my vote anytime. If you haven´t at least listened to Boys for Pele your opinions are not valuable IMO .
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 10:29
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Won't get angry for anything, heard all that album and not ipressed, not Prog or even related at all.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 10:46
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^ which album? Just curious ... I'd recommend Under the Pink or Boys for Pele.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 10:53
"Had me a trick and a kick and your message Well you'll never gain weight from a doughnut hole Then thought that I could decipher your message There's no one here dear No one at all And if I'm wasting all your time This time Maybe you never learned to take And if I'm hanging on to your shade I guess I'm way beyond the pale" Curious if you have tried any of her first two and what you think of either of them? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 10:58
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I heard Boys for Pele, and only find a good voice but Adult Contemporary music with a Folkish edge.
Not Prog or related at all.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 11:05
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^ I never listened to that album in full, I shall do so again. My favorite is Under the Pink, which is much more experimental. I wouldn't exactly call it Prog, but I can certainly understand why people suggest it for addition.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 12:35
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I think people should take a listen to the beautiful and challenging Piano and hapsichord playing on Boys for Pele. I consider both her appoach to singing and her piano and hapsichord playing to be progressive and well worth and inclusion on PA.
Under the Pink is great too by the way.
If you´re not convinced. Go see her live show. She´s a vulgar diva for sure and what she does to her compositions in a live environment is definitely innovative. A real unique artist ( well of course we all know the connection to Kate Bush, but it doesn´t bother me).
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 12:51
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It's amazing to see the desperation for adding remolety related aerists (even if that), as if it was a priority for Prog Archives.
People talk about Tori Amos voice, yes, she's good, but so Dolores O'Riordan or Stevie Niclks.
Her Piano performance: I'm sure Richard Clayderman has much better technique, but not here either.
But her music is only adult contemporary, noithing remotely related with Prog, lets worry for Prog artists, we have hundreds to add, I believe Prog Related is for artists who have a huge contribution or connection with Pog but their music is not Prog enough, she doesn't fit.
People is here for their COMPOSITION and MUSICAL STRUCTURE, not because they have an excellent voice, play an instrument with dexterity or have spiritual connections with Prog Related artists.
Tori Amos has done nothing for Prog, her influences are not Prog, she has influenced no Prog artist, she has her own genre and public who love her, let her stay there.
If this wasn't enough, even after a decade in the market, no Prog site has added her, isn't that indicative of something?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 13:23
I think it´s an indication that too many prog heads still live in the seventies and can´t recognise progressive tendencies in contemporary music. I´m sure that if you listen a bit more closely you´ll find plenty of interesting musical structures in Tori Amos music which isn´t tradionally vers/ chorus build on all songs. Lots of little changes in the songs that only occur once and of course her way of thinking about music, which is very progressive. Common man ! this site isn´t only for Genesis and Yes now is it ? Isn´t the genres prog related and crossover prog created to include artists who have progressive tendencies or as you mentioned meant a lot to the development of progressive music even though they are not directly progressive. I´ll mention bands like 10CC and Queen here. But there are many who could be added to that list. All deserving a place on PA IMO. ( actually I´ve found very few bands here that I didn´t think belonged here. Right now I can only think of two and that´s a pretty good average. I will use this opertunity to give a hand/ thanks to the clever genre teams, even though I have my battles once in a while )
It´s fine that you don´t think Tori Amos has made an impact on progressive music. That´s your opinion. I think we are a couple who disagree with that statement though. Crossover or Prog related I don´t care much but I think she belongs here because her music has progressive tendencies. As I understand it this site tries to include and document anything which are progressve and that includes contemporary music with progressive tendencies. Or am I wrong ?
I´m not sure what you mean by adult contemporary ? If you´re trying to compare Tori Amos with everty other American piano playing female singer/ songwriter, you´re dead wrong. She is a far more sophisticated creature than most other artists in that genre ( just like Kate Bush is). There is a reason she has survived almost twenty years on the scene and that´s because she is unique and always trying to do something new with her sound. Innovative in other words.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:14
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interesting discussion.... thus I guess we can say... Ms. Amos is under eval.... my personal thoughts...to help steer the discussion in positive terms.... since I sense a recurring theme here in groups that tend to fall under the Crossover purview... whether you agree or not about the existence of the sub-genre... it is here... others do not have it. We were probably the first site to really recognize what UMUR is talking about there... that prog and contemporary music.. or pop music if you want to call it that are not mutually exclusive. I don't care..the site doesn't care.... if you agree or disagree with that premise.. the question is... the site has it.. and has an established set of artists which define it in a way... the question is.. not what you personally think if she is prog or not... christ.. we all have 50 thousand different notions of it. The question is.. .does she.. or any group fit what the site has established as our guidelines... what this site acknowledges to be worthy of including here. to be honest to some whom I really respect... if you don't think Radiohead belongs here.. or is not prog.. you are not going to like or agree with much of anything that is under discussion for this sub hahahha. What helps the dicussion are those who recognize this is now an established branch of progressive rock. As an admin noted not long after the site established it... the term Crossover started being used across the internet. We are not making sh*t up... we just call them as we see them. We all see things differently... try looking at it from our standpoint.. our perspective. We have a job to do... help us by recognizing what we are really trying to do with these evals. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:17
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^ what if it's not prog enough for Crossover Prog ... something like "Crossover-Prog Related"? But I agree that Crossover Prog is the most appropriate genre, style-wise.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:20
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then like the Stranglers Mike.. we reject it...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:28
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^ so would I! On a more general website like PF though ... I think that these albums might score a progressive approach level of around 5 ... even if more people participate (she only has 7 album ratings so far). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:39
yeah ..that is the sh*t sandwich we eat that comes with nice tags and standing on the cutting edge of the site. We do.. and have been very careful with the groups we do eval Mike. Because the prog quotient.. the progressive level you speak of... is a hard thing to judge.. try judging it against the symphonic dinosaurs and they get about a zero in traditional prog terms. And as I aluded to above ..many do judge modern acts on outdated models and ideas of prog. This is not a site devoted to 70's prog.. so what is here is not GOING to sound or be like the traditional prog. So we are very...very cautious with additions. Far more than most give us credit for. Steely Dan, for example yet we covered our bases.. or in non-PC terms.. covered our asses it was a no brainer.. they are listed on two other major sites but had the approval of the owner... and the site's experts on J-R. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:11
What does thids means?
That you are thre only enlighted and every Prog site and pěece of Prog literature is wrong?
About modern tendencies? We add more modern band in one week than most people outside the teams have done in their entire lifes, so don't say we don't accept modern tendencies,. What we don't accept is non Prog bands being added because everybody has his favorite artist and wants to review him/her here.
If an artist in a decade has not been included in any Prog site is because in 99.9999999% of the cases is not Prog or Prog Related.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:22
| Ivan, I have no stakes in this addition (though I like Tori), but if I were you, I'd be careful about bringing up other prog sites, because in general they are much more inclusive than we are. I would recommend you have a look at some of their databases, and see what kind of artists they have there. I've seen Bob Dylan and Napalm Death on one of them, and too many to mention on another. Not naming any names though, since we are in public, but ready to provide the evidence. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:27
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I love Napalm Death but wouldn´t suggest them on a prog site. It´s not so long ago I saw them live with Suffocation. Great concert.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:29
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Yes Raff, but not even the INCLUSIVE Prog sites have her.
BTW: The rules say that if a band or artist is not in two PROG sites, should be considered CONTROVERSIAL and would require the unanimous vote of all the members, so I'm not the oone using other sites, the rules of Prog Archives force us to verify if a band is there or not.
So, I use other sites not to include, but to exclude.
Cheers Raff, missed our discussions.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:30
| I tried to copy the link and post it here, but it is not possible... Anyway, I am talking about one of the major prog sites, one who attracts many posters from here too. Not making things up. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:31
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Raff's point is a true one... each site has it's own character.. it's own standards.. and is foolish to compare what each site has versus each other... .though I wouldn't mind... would love to see Coltrane and Brubeck here as another prog site does. Wonder if we can't have what others don't... means we have what others have... hmmmm ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:31
Well, people have told me I could've been a lawyer, but I could never out-argue you ... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:34
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that's why I'm around but the jury already left on this case and is kicked back on the sofa watching the big game... that is what we have genre teams for.. otherwise we'd just add what other sites do.. and not add what others don't, The other sites can be a guide.. but have nothing to do with what we do here. Period.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:44
Micky, nobody telling to do what other sites do, but the rules of Prog Archives force us to verify in other sites, you know me better than that, we rejected a lot of bands that were on other sites and added a few controversial ones, but if you remember, even without rule (then) we required a full agreement to add them.But now is a mandatory rule, if an artist is not include.in at least two representative PROG sites -..we require unanimous vote of the whole team to add him/her.
I don't place the rules.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:52
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of course.. .that is what we did with the Stranglers... but if the team had accepted it.. we would have added them.. regardless if no sites anywhere listed them.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:13
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Well, let's see: One Collaborator strongly supporting the addition Several others Collaborators having built already their case against the addition "Ping-pong" replying already taking place Arguments continuously forming (but good -?- humour too, along the way...) Almost 40 posts already Mmm...It won't take long for this thread to join 'Stranglers' and "Metallica"...All we need now is Cert...(but is he into Tori Amos?  )  ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:17
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it shouldn't Rico... if people stick to discussing the pros and cons of her... remarkable how people drop out of the discussion when you have to show something about actually knowing the artist. as I said... does she fit Xover or not.. .that is the question.. not whether you think she belongs here.. that takes two things.. understanding Xover.. which many here don't... and understanding her music.. which it seems many don't short of an album or two. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:52
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I don't think she's prog or even prog-related, but what I think doesn't matter. I'm not a collaborator.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:57
I'll frame a collection of your valuable insights here in these threads for exhibit A why you aren't ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:15
He's also not a real person, just a hired actor, remember |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:27
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I see that John Bobo Bollenberg considers her a progressive artist. If that matters to anything at all is another question entirely - he's only a reviewer after all.
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:28
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got a link for the guy Olav.. not familiar with that reviewer ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:40
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Hmm, for a quick read up on Bollenberg, check the bio on "The Bollenberg Experience" added to the database not too long ago. Bobo's main activity these days from what I gather: http://www.boborocks.be/index.php - http://www.boborocks.be/index.php Tori Amos review: http://www.progressiveworld.net/toriamos.html - http://www.progressiveworld.net/toriamos.html Kinda heavily into the Symforce festival too it seems: http://www.dprp.net/concrev/2007symforce.php - http://www.dprp.net/concrev/2007symforce.php ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:44
thanks  ... for the more... I dare say.. controversial ....eval's...I like to know what people outside of this nuthouse have to say. Thanks.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:52
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Personally I have no opinion here - don't know the artist at all ;-) Some googling lead to search results that might be of interest for evaluation purposes; which is why I posted them. Not many seeing Amos as progressive based on the results, but this Bobo dude apparently does; at least to the extent of reviewing her for a prog site. If that has any value at all is up to the evaluation team to analyze. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:10
A case CAN be made in favor of napalm Death and their album "Scum", which is the actual opposite of the expanding structures of most PA-favored metal and in a way a reaction to that. In a way, is a de-progressivezation
 of metal and the birthplace of grindcore. It was revolutionary, unique, with unheard-of structures.... mmm... ..... (and "you suffer" lasts less than one second... now isn't that what prog is all about? ) About Amos, my knowledge is limited. But I wouldn't disagree with an inclusion under the related umbrella.... ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:29
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there is no doubt Amos is an innovative artist, she is also highly skilled beyond most popular musicians (I'd suggest her first for eval., Little Earthquakes, in addition to the albums mentioned in this thread), on the other hand there is little rock in her music (if that counts) ..my feeling about Tori is that she is one of those artists that represents a cusp between popular and progressive, her music a kind of shadowy middle zone that is both irreverent and digestible, startling but comfortable, intelligent but unpretentious.. she's gonna be a tough call |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:37
For what site Olav?
I checked most of the big and representative sites and nothing.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:53
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Some site called Progressive World. Not one I frequent a lot - basically don't know much about it.
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 19:06
I suspected it Bobo Bollemberg reviews Strange Little Girl, an album with songs written by everybody except her, including an EMINEM track, The Stranglers, The Boommtown Rats, etc.
In no point of his album review mentions the word Prog, and until I know, we don't add artists for cover versions.
Thuis is not the inclusion of Tori Amos in a site, only a revie3w of an album with no material written by her.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 19:45
No disrespect to all the opinions and one/two couple of thread comment liners ( myself included). But for goodness sake why beat about the bush when a TA description or definition as good as the one quoted above says it all. Talks about talks are not my bag persoanlly,and one does not need to write books to formulate opinions on any artist debates. Of course noones stopping you if you do want to write books on the matter
. Beside we are only on page 3 of the threads, could be a record.......I have seen enough solid comments above to see that quite a few people know her music. And the views against are solid too. Will she be a controversial situation, it certainly looks that way.
Great description of Tori Amos David  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 20:33
Not that I want to be, in the first place.  And didn't we just have some big discussion on how innovation =/= prog?! You guys flip-flop like something that flip-flops a lot... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 22:42
sh*t man.. you are the smart one.. the job isn't all it is cracked up to be. as David, our resident collab sage, said so wisely ..Ms Amos is not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.. it is not an easy call. We'll make the best call we can... but which ever way we decide.. some will be pleased.. and some will wonder what the hell we were listening to... the nature of the job my friend. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 02:46
Well it sounds like Tori Amos is in good hands. So I´ll leave it at that. . I wasn´t the one who suggested her for inclusion but I do strongly feel that she belongs here.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:15
best hands on the site  don't be the fool though like others have if we don't accept... we understand everyone has their notions to what belongs here. There have to be standards and the teams do that for the site or else it would be a free for all and soon end up like allmusic.com. As I explained above.. we are, and have to be careful in our evals. Having my fair experience among the various teams.. it is by far the trickiest sub to manage. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:21
| Yeah I´m sure crossover and prog-related are very difficult genres to adm. and no I won´t be upset if Tori doesn´t make it. There are other artists where I would wonder more. Well I still hope she gets added and I´m of course ready to write both bio and add albums if that´s needed. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:24
Hey, I've known and loved her music ever since that album, uhm Pretty In Pink |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 06:32
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excellent.. thanks... like the Stranglers.. it will take all 3 members to accept for her to be added. They all have open minds... so we'll see how it goes. For me...I'm out of the thread to let it go where it goes while I bone up on her.... sort of dropped in to try to stear the discussion in a positive light. Whether she is on other sites doesn't matter at all.. that is what we have teams for here.. to evaluate them based on the standards this site.. our teams have set. Whether she is prog or not is not the question.. I haven't seen one person here explain how she is.. and not one why she isn't. That is TOO subjective a term. The question is simply whether her music fits the Crossover prog... I dropped in to the thread because I think many lose sight of that.. wait.. never had a sense of what an eval really is. We do NOT judge artists if they are prog or not.. we judge the music to see if it fits for this site. Remember that people..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 07:11
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Well, whether she gets added or not doesn't really matter to me, though I could do some good reviews of her albums. She has yet to put out an album that didn't touch me deeply. So it's good music and lumping her in with Richard Clayderman is rather crass and unfair (yeah Ivan, I'm poking fun at you). I do think there is something wrong if she gets added to Crossover while Kate remains Prog Related. If you limit yourself to music that strictly fits narrow criteria of what is considered prog by this site, you're depriving yourself. I know what I like and I like what I know. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:59
I don't say she's good or bad, and Clayderman music gives me nausea, I'm notcopmparing her music with Richard Clayderman; but the argument that she's a great piano player means nothing in an inclusion,
Richard Clayderman no matter how bad his music is, is an honor graduate of Paris Conservatory,
And I'm completely sure his piano technique is much better than Tori Amos and many Prog keyboardist, so there's no need to mock me,. I'm saying an absolute truth, better mock at arguments like she should be here because:
Just to clarify.
Again you are mixing unrelated arguments, I listen a lot of non Prog music, I don't limit myself to any music.
BUT, PROGARCHIVES is a site created for Prog, it has it's rules an it's ctiteria, so it must be followed, I can't add Jackson Browne because I love his music, and to add Tori Amos, the teams must decide if her music is Prog and fits the "silly criterias" here....Because the game in Prog rchives is Prog Rock.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:47
| I´ll have to correct you there Ivan. Not Prog ROCK. Prog music. ( both metal, rock, avant garde, jazz and whatever other prog related genre that is included here on PA). I think that´s important to note. That´s why I think the name Prog Archives is such a well chosen name and yes I see that it says Your ultimate prog ROCK resource on the logo as well, but as genres like prog related and crossover is now a part of PA I think we should all respect that there will sometimes be added something we don´t feel should be here, but others ( the majority) do. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:52
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Tori Amos is a superb composer of moving music in the tradition of female singer-songwriters. Her music is painfully introspective and haunts the listener long after the album is finished - one of a handful of musicians who achieves this with consistency. She's able to embrace change, and her work is remarkably diverse. But I'm afraid I don't hear a moment's prog in her work. Nor do I think her music progressive: she hasn't pushed any boundaries, having followed in the trail blazed by Kate Bush and others. I can't myself see how she fulfills any of the criteria, but I won't lose a moment's sleep if she is added, and I'll enjoy reviewing her albums. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:10
But it'ˇs a PROG ROCK RESOUEC, want it or not, the other categories are an exception to the general rule.
Despite that, each genre has it's characteristics and guiedlines, Prog Related says_:
Tori Amos fits nowhere ther, less when it says:
So her performane in piano and vocals MEAN NOTHING for an induction.
And to finish it:
Her addition would cause more confusion than any benefit.
BTW Prog Related is an exception, and IMO Crossover, well still is Prog Rock.....Thuis is a Prog Rock site with exceptions, nothing more.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:16
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Tory Amos will have a thumbs up from me as soon as Happy Rhodes joins Kate Bush in Prog-Related. PA needs more chicks. ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:21
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Yes, we need more chicks, lets add Maddona, Britney and Celine Dion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:57
And Medićval Bćbes too! ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:27
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Mediaeval Babebes are admitted, I've been too lazy to make the bio
But I forgot The Spice girls, four or five by the price of one.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:30
Hmm, maybe I should suggest Phantom Blue to prog metal then. Better haul in the Runaways while we're at it - perhaps Joan Jett and Lita Ford too ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 15:55
Is there anyone else who is getting just a little bit tired of all this? 
Am I the only one who thinks 'prog' and "progressive' are lousy, outdated, hopelessly-subjective and controversial ways to categorize music?
Am I alone in finding categorizing music in general to often be highly subjective, & ultimately pointless to argue about?
Am I alone in caring less and less about which artists are listed here or not?
Am I alone in being frustrated with reviews which essentially say "not prog enough to be here," and thus give the album a skewed, unfairly low rating on that nebulous basis?
 I think if I were to have a "progressive rock" site, I'd probably limit it to "classic" progressive rock, with no albums from past 1977... Nah -- people would still argue constantly about old rock stuff. I guess I'd just have an all-music-type site, file artists alphabetically, and leave it up to individual reviewers to pin "genres" or "sounds like' comparisons on the albums, as they wished.Ultimately, I think many die-hard prog fans simply like to argue about music. I think many of us are perfectionists, and used to not compromising with our musical tastes. We know what we like, and each person knows he or she is right. Now, gather thousands of such strong-minded, uncompromising, "serious about serious music" folks together, let them all have input, and what do you get? A post 'tower of Babel"- type situation -- everyone talking about their personal vision of 'prog", but no one understands what anyone else means by "prog."
I suppose this is interesting and even "fun" to many, but it increasingly frustrates and alienates me. I find I'm mostly here for the laughs these days, and the non-music related topics. I'm sick of arguing about music, reading arguments about music, and whether artists fit into some undefined 'prog" category (or group of categories) which simply isn't a defined category. Admit it -- you basically mean above average, and thus"good" when you say prog, don't you?
 It NEVER ends!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 16:03
 ! Hey Micky you're so fine... you're so fine you blow my mind...hey Micky!...------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 16:26
Wooo, someone's not happy. No, I don't mean 'good' when I say 'prog'. I have more non-prog in my collection than prog, and plenty of it is good. 'Music Has the Right to Children' is good, for example, and it is not prog. I bet I'm not the only one in the world who thinks this way. I'm fascinated by arguments about music. I learn stuff about music and about people and about myself. Not sick of any of those things yet. When I am I'll give it a rest until I'm not sick of them any more. The only thing that annoys me are blanket statements made with no justification. In effect, the argument goes: they're prog/not prog because I say so. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 17:15
absolutely, I'd probably stop coming here if there wasn't at least one good argument each day |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 17:58
My responses are in BLUE.
Now, do you want to talk about something less controversial? Politics, religion or abortion, perhaps? ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
), life is good. Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:08
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labelling is libelling, liebling! Let Tori be...... Prog, frog, dog, sog, log, cog..... who cares..... ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:11
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Now, I honestly couldn't care less if Ms Amos is listed here or not, but for the record (and so as not to appear too much the grumpy curmudgeon), I do have one of her albums, and though I rarely play it, I will say that I find find Amos' approach to music to be at least as above average as many another artist already listed here.
Of course, if included, she'll lead to growing calls for Bjork, Joanna Newsom, Victoria Williams, and many another of such individualist, eclectic feminine musical ilk. Wait and see....
^ Maybe some of those are already here... not that I care. Is Laurie Anderson here yet? ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 18:41
The vast majority who are members and visit a site dedicated to Prog music and those who left countless hours gere working for love to Prog....We care.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 19:33
Bold part: Which doesn't keep our collabs from playing it at their new 7.1 1KW sound system in the collab zone.... Italics part: Seriously though - I share your view here, Peter. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 19:36
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I really admire how they've continued making quality rock.. the new album sounds damn good |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 19:52
^ Guys, please see my old (now unearthed) ACDC "highway to hell" thread in the General Music section.Thread hijack over & out! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 19:55
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sorry I thought the Amos thing had pretty much run its course |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 21:46
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 00:26
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Ha! I like how on the forum home page, this thread's (lengthy) title appears as simply "Tori Amos deserves to be..." (as if we are meant to complete the sentence).
I bet Micky would say "boned..." Of course, he may well be right:
 Not too hard on the eyes, is she now Micky? ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:35
I believe she is happily boned at the moment. Worthy of inclusion here or not, any fellow fans out there enjoying her new album Abnormally Attracted To Sin? She has yet to put out an album I didn't like. Total fanboy here. I would start a new thread for this but this thread had gotten a little too AC/DC for my tastes. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 09:41
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I haven't got it yet, but I shall.
Have you got any of her official bootlegs Brian? I'm trying to find if there is one where she played an extract of Tubular Bells as a piano solo - there are some poor cell-phone video's of it on YouBoob but I'd like to hear a good sound-board recording of it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 09:49
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I say we force an identity crisis and admit Tori Amos, Dire Straits, and Toto.
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 09:50
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or maybe we compare her body of work to Peter Gabriel. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:05
Well, one of the best prog sites around, the german Babyblaue, lists all her albums in ArtPop (weirdly called "crossover"prog here), a subgenre that counts 10CC, Kate Bush, Roxy Music, David Bowie, Supertramp...
http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=band&bandId=393 - http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=band&bandId=393
The rating is on a scale of 15, and of course 'little earthquakes' is deemed her best album to date, and a must-have for all above-mentioned bands.
Note that this site is both inclusive (Björk, Samshing Pumpkins (album 'mellon collie...'), Jane Siberry, Stina Nordenstam...) and exclusive (regarding Death, only albums as of 'Human' are reviewed, and only Metallica's 'master of puppets' and 'justice for all' are featured)
Prior to her solo career, Tori Amos released a decent ArtPop/AOR-oriented album with Vinnie Colaiuta on drums. This was called Y Kant Tori Read.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:11
I haven't gone for any of the official bootlegs, but I'd love to hear her doing some Tubular Bells. By the way go for the deluxe version with the DVD.
I still haven't heard that one and didn't know that Vinnie was on that. Way cool. And you know Adrian Belew dropped in on Strange Little Girls. I like the reinvention of Neil Young's Heart Of Gold the most. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:15
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Man I would so much like to see Tori in Crossover. A unique artist that one ( well Kate Bush has to be mentioned everytime you talk about Tori, but you get the meaning).
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 13:00
I have a fan club release called Forgotten Earthquakes which is a bunch of unused songs and B-sides, highly recommended to fans |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:37
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Maybe I'm late on the subject, but Amos is a bit more than a Bush copycat, but I don't think she's PA material..... KB is prog-related partly because of her friends
TA would be prog-related-related
No thanks....
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:58
Bjork even more so barring her Debut release. Her artistic experimentaion a modern day exception.
Smashing Pumpkins - IMO a very progressive sounding band not rivalling modern day PT but all the conceptual splendour there to see, Zeitgeist moved away from this though.
As for Stina Nordenstam and Joe Jackson's session guru Jane Siberry ----not qualified to know enough ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:08
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At this point I could really care less who gets added and where they get put if they do. I probably should have started a new thread. Is anyone out there enjoying the new album?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:19
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^ no, do share Slartibartfast.
I'm in no hurry to buy new TA ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: athandpr
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 15:47
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I like her music, but the other thing like about her, besides looking good, is the fact that she calls her own shots.
------------- Prophecies of War A cinema-concert http://www.PropheciesofWar.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 00:11
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Lucas..............ART POP = PROG?
It sounds to me more like artistic Pop, something I can admit but again IMO no relation with Prog.
BTW: I don't speak German, beyond the basics (Despite my rusty Deutsch, her bio is not clear about her being Prog, only mentions she started as a Kate Bush clone and developed an own "angeproggten" style, which if I'm not wrong means AOR), so i stay with the English and Spanish sites, and she's (or at least was the last time I checked) in none,
BTW: The German site apparently considers AOR as Prog....We don't
This is not determinant of course, but a good reference.
BTW: If Kate Bush is in Prog Related, I don't see how a clone of her can be in a full Prog sub-genre.
Iván -------------
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