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Topic ClosedThe "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll

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Poll Question: Iron Maiden are here - in that light, do Metallica also qualify?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
    Posted: August 20 2008 at 03:53
Thread closed - we don't need three - please use this one:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50828

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 03:26
Indeed. Ladies and gentlemen ... I rest my case.Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 03:09
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Here's the Allmusic Review of And Justice For All:
Review by Steve Huey

The most immediately noticeable aspect of ...And Justice for All isn't Metallica's still-growing compositional sophistication or the apocalyptic lyrical portrait of a society in decay. It's the weird, bone-dry production. The guitars buzz thinly, the drums click more than pound, and Jason Newsted's bass is nearly inaudible. It's a shame that the cold, flat sound obscures some of the sonic details, because ...And Justice for All is Metallica's most complex, ambitious work; every song is an expanded suite, with only two of the nine tracks clocking in at under six minutes. It takes a while to sink in, but given time, ...And Justice for All reveals some of Metallica's best material. It also reveals the band's determination to pull out all the compositional stops, throwing in extra sections, odd-numbered time signatures, and dense webs of guitar arpeggios and harmonized leads. At times, it seems like they're doing it simply because they can; parts of the album lack direction and probably should have been trimmed for momentum's sake. Pacing-wise, the album again loosely follows the blueprint of Ride the Lightning, though not as closely as Master of Puppets. This time around, the fourth song — once again a ballad with a thrashy chorus and outro — gave the band one of the unlikeliest Top 40 singles in history; "One" was an instant metal classic, based on Dalton Trumbo's antiwar novel Johnny Got His Gun and climaxing with a pulverizing machine-gun imitation. As a whole, opinions on ...And Justice for All remain somewhat divided: some think it's a slightly flawed masterpiece and the pinnacle of Metallica's progressive years; others see it as bloated and overambitious. Either interpretation can be readily supported, but the band had clearly taken this direction as far as it could. The difficulty of reproducing these songs in concert eventually convinced Metallica that it was time for an overhaul.

Well.. acording with this review Metallica can't reproduce live these songs???? interest discover....
 
T, Cert and Winter, correct me i this guy is wrong...
 
According to that review, AJFA is the "pinnacle of Metallica's progressive years".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 03:05
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Kind of Blue is actually a Jazz album ... for many it is even *the* ultimate Jazz recording of all time. I love it ... I might even buy the vinyl edition later this week.Smile
and you will not regret... by the way if you want to expand more your musical boundaries see the following musicians:
 
Bill Evans. Pianist of Kind of Blue BTW.
Peter Brotzmann astounding saxophonist.
Anthony Braxton, saxophonist and one of the living legend.
Cecil Taylor great pianist...
 
and so on...
Big%20smile
 


Thanks for the recommendations ... but why do you think that my musical boundaries need expanding?Wink

BTW: As you may see in my current signature image from time to time, yesterday I bought a Noxagt album ... Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

but it's not the technique that makes a band prog so much as the structure, as I see it. 
 
Indeed - and Metallica's structures were very advanced compared to metal bands of the time - and strikingly similar to those used (much later) by Dream Theater.
 
For example "Kill 'em All" features advanced and progressive (as in Prog Rock) structuring, where riffs are developed, turned upside down and inside out. I am not talking about the simple adding of new riffs, as the "technical" thrash bands all tended to, but genuine development of existing ones - the SAME technique that is used on "In The Court of the Crimson King".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 02:21
Thanks, it's an idea I've been trying to articulate in past posts too (btw, I wrote trash instead of thrash, honest typo this time LOL). 

This is not as thought out a post.  It's late and I'm sleepy.

Incidentally, I've read comments about Metallica's techniques influencing bands such as Dream Theater (for instance drums getting out of synch) and don't know how much such stuff is being used to help Metallica's case, but it's not the technique that makes a band prog so much as the structure, as I see it.  That techniqe does not make DT Prog.  Experimentation and innovation are very important to truly progressive music, though.

I wonder if people would still consider, say Master of Puppets, Prog if it came out today?  Poor example perhaps, but I'd still consider In the Court prog if it came out today, retro prog, but still prog.

Anyway, I do expect that when it comes to influence (say in DT), that classic progressive rock bands were more important to the "Progressive" part of the equation in progressive metal bands than a metal band such as Metallica.  Metallica progressed metal generally more than modern Prog, I'd think.  Time to get MoP and listen for myself to hear how Prog it sounds to me (okay,I have heard it before, but not for quite some years).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 01:25
^ that's quite a fair and good argument Logan, and very close to my stance a year or so ago.. sometimes I think musical perception has more to do with us than the music, and as we progress as listeners and our perspective shifts a bit, sometimes imperceptibly,  what once seemed out of place suddenly appears to fit, or vice-versa I suppose   ..anyway, I hear where you're coming from and think historical perception and impact are quite important (ironically the Metallica supporters may feel this way too in addition to believing the band played progmetal at one point)   ..cheers, I think your position may be shared by many so it was good you articulated it







Edited by Atavachron - August 20 2008 at 01:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2008 at 01:08
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Since Ivan mentioned the AllMusic Guide, here is their definition of Thrash music. 

Thrash was essentially the sound of underground heavy metal during the '80s, dominated by a driving, percussive approach to rhythm guitar (thanks to a pick-hand technique called palm muting) and furious levels of aggression. Thrash was often technically accomplished, taken at fast tempos, and emphasized heavy, sometimes atonal guitar riffs over melody; however, these generalizations are far from absolute rules. In its early days, thrash was essentially the same thing as speed metal, the product of American bands who in the early '80s fused the lean, vicious attack of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal with the tempos of hardcore punk and Motorhead. However, the dexterity and constant intensity required to play speed metal proved limiting to some, and a variety of different approaches quickly took shape: some thrash bands concentrated more on midtempo grooves, occasionally accelerating into speed-metal realms; some, like Metallica and Megadeth, used their instrumental technique to craft more intricate and progressive music; others emphasized the music's aggression to project theatrically menacing images. Thrash provided a harder, heavier, more authentically metallic alternative to the accessible pop-metal bands who dominated the charts in the late '80s, and despite a dearth of airplay, it became quite popular, so much so that when Metallica and Megadeth streamlined their sound to make it more accessible in the early '90s, they became instant superstars. Diehard underground metalheads took refuge in the thrash-inspired death and black metal styles, which took thrash's dark subject matter and visceral force to intentionally disturbing extremes.

In blue, their reference to Metallica and Megadeth crafting "progressive music".   Their definition, not Mike's or Certs.  As weird as it may seem to some there really is some rationale behind it.
 
As I posted in one of the other threads I really never considered Metallica to be a thrash band other than with their Kill 'em All and some of Garage Days. 
 


Interesting.  The wiki definition


Originally posted by <a href=http://metal.wikia.com/wiki/Progressive_metal target=_blank>metal wiki</a> metal wiki wrote:

 

Progressive metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal music which blends the powerful, guitar-driven sound of metal with the complex compositional structures, odd time signatures, and intricate instrumental playing of progressive rock. Some progressive metal bands are also influenced by jazz fusion and classical music. Like progressive rock songs, progressive metal songs are usually much longer than standard metal songs, and they are often thematically linked in concept albums. As a result, progressive metal is rarely heard on mainstream radio and video programs.

HISTORY

The origins of progressive metal can be traced back to progressive rock bands from the late 1960s and early to mid-1970s such as Yes, Pink Floyd, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Focus, early Queen, Kansas, Atomic Rooster, Uriah Heep and Rush. The latter 5 also often blended metal elements into their music. However, progressive metal did not develop into a genre of its own until the mid-1980s. Bands such as Rainbow had many qualities of progressive metal. Bands such as Fates Warning, Queensrÿche and Dream Theater took elements of these progressive rock groups – primarily the instrumentation and compositional structure of songs – and merged them with heavy metal styles associated with early Metallica and Megadeth. The result could be described as a progressive rock mentality with heavy metal sounds.

Progressive metal received mainstream exposure in the early 1990s when Queensrÿche's "Silent Lucidity" (from 1990's Empire) became a radio and MTV hit. It was not a typical progressive metal song, but its popularity increased the profile of other progressive metal bands. In 1993, Dream Theater's "Pull Me Under" (from 1992's Images and Words) became popular on radio and MTV. In the 1990s, bands such as Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Ayreon, and Symphony X developed their own signature sounds.

Pain of Salvation drew heavily on more obscure 1970s prog acts. Ayreon stayed with the traditional Prog Metal themes, but mixed them with rock opera influences. Symphony X married progressive elements to power metal, bridging the gap between the two sub-genres. Steve Vai's former singer and heavy metal band Strapping Young Lad's singer and guitarist Devin Townsend combined elements of post metal and ambient with traditional progressive metal on his first two solo albums Ocean Machine: Biomech and Infinity. Opeth combined their prog influence with death metal. Another influence on prog metal was "technical metal" bands, such as Meshuggah, Watchtower, Atheist and Cynic, which played complex song structures and used virtuoso instrumental playing.

Bands like Sun Caged, Dominici and Circus Maximus are influenced by traditional progressive metal and several of the first wave of 1990s bands. Bands such as Dark Suns, Disillusion, or Conscience are influenced by emotional progressive metal bands like Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Green Carnation and Anathema. Sweden's Tiamat have also been influential in the progressive metal genre, especially on their 1994's breakthrough-album Wildhoney.


This highlights a question I had before reading about Metallica.

"Bands such as Fates Warning, Queensrÿche and Dream Theater took elements of these progressive rock groups – primarily the instrumentation and compositional structure of songs – and merged them with heavy metal styles associated with early Metallica and Megadeth. The result could be described as a progressive rock mentality with heavy metal sounds."

That Metallica was "progressive" (but not Prog) and influential was not in doubt for me.  That it influenced bands like DT I was aware of.  A concern of mine has been that the Prog part of the equation in those Prog Metal bands comes from classic Prog bands such as Yes, whereas Metallica influenced the heavy metal sounds part.  Those heavy metal sounds being fused with progressive rock elements.  If talking influence, did Metallica progress metal more, generally-speaking, or Prog generally-speaking?  Metallica influenced a whole slew of metal bands, some prog, some not. Not that we can consider Metallica for Proto-Prog anyway.

Another problem I have is that it is being compared to non-prog metal bands. As an example, it was doing more complicated stuff than other trash ((no-prog) bands were doing at the time.  A part of me would rather compare it to what prog bands were doing at the time, and had done before, even if the progressive metal history and progressive rock history are quite different (heck, it's all rock to me).

Anyway, perhaps if I listened to the band's "proggiest," or at least most progressive albums" I might feel differently, but I wouldn't be looking at them historically, I'd be listening to the music based on its own compositional qualities (rather than thinking if this was more progressive than similar bands out there, or if this progressed metal), but if it has sufficient proglike qualities (course it would help if I did know more metal to reference it, but I generally have a decent idea of what is proggy, I think.  Not always... Oh, and I'm also more inclusive than most).



Edited by Logan - August 20 2008 at 01:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 20:11
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

IMO,
 
 
Metallica doesn't belong in PR because their influence on and from prog is really minor, (...)
 
 
Actually, tux, their influence on Prog Metal is very, very major - or possibly modal...
 
 
agreed, but I was talking about their "progressive" influence rather than on musical influence, which i agree is rather major
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 19:41
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Kind of Blue is actually a Jazz album ... for many it is even *the* ultimate Jazz recording of all time. I love it ... I might even buy the vinyl edition later this week.Smile
and you will not regret... by the way if you want to expand more your musical boundaries see the following musicians:
 
Bill Evans. Pianist of Kind of Blue BTW.
Peter Brotzmann astounding saxophonist.
Anthony Braxton, saxophonist and one of the living legend.
Cecil Taylor great pianist...
 
and so on...
Big%20smile
 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 19:39
No metallica to the archives plz Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[
 
 
Clap I clearly understand your logic and it seems it was the best course of actin. When the site had but 10 prog-related bands, a big name as Metallica which causes a lot of controversy in regards to its relation to prog would've been more problematic. Now the situation can be looked upon with much more reasoning and less prejudice.
 
Yeah in that logic, Korn and RATM  has also Proggy elements no?????
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous... There's no logic whatsoever in this conclusion.
 
Stop seeing logic in everywhere man, enjoy life!!!, life can't be so serious... and music also can´t be logic...
 
Please Zafreth, your dedication to this is at the same time admirable for your tenacity and also quite strange... I fail to see where your passion to keep Metallica out of PA comes from.
 
Look T or whathever are your real name, as you like to defend your opinions, analysis, etc, i like to do as well, i actually think that Metallica MAYBE  almost goes to prog related as a almost have read the entire older thread that Certifi1ed galdly put in my hands..  and by WinterLight comments i confess that i have to listen again MOP and AJFA very detailed to finally can do my final opinion, but i think again that Metallica is a Thrash band... very proficiency no doubt... and i DO like them a lot, do not forget that please. 
 
Anyway, go back to previous answers where you kind of gave some arguments. This picking of others' posts and drawing impossible conclusions doesn't help your cause.
 
My cause is the MUSIC... and that's a clear one...  Cumbia and others really impossible nasty genres away from rock do not..
 
 


Edited by zafreth - August 19 2008 at 19:52




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 19:17
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ of course - one criterium is not enough. Remember that I would never add Metallica as prog metal ... their music isn't fully fledged prog, except maybe for Orion, AJFA (the track) and a small number of others.  
 
Thank you !!!




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:42
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ of course - one criterium is not enough. Remember that I would never add Metallica as prog metal ... their music isn't fully fledged prog, except maybe for Orion, AJFA (the track) and a small number of others.  


Just like you said: "maybe"...I still see their relation as a long shot. Well have to wait and see what happens with them here in PA.Wink


Edited by burritounit - August 19 2008 at 18:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:35
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[
 
 
Clap I clearly understand your logic and it seems it was the best course of actin. When the site had but 10 prog-related bands, a big name as Metallica which causes a lot of controversy in regards to its relation to prog would've been more problematic. Now the situation can be looked upon with much more reasoning and less prejudice.
 
Yeah in that logic, Korn and RATM  has also Proggy elements no?????
 
Sorry, but this is ridiculous... There's no logic whatsoever in this conclusion.
 
Please Zafreth, your dedication to this is at the same time admirable for your tenacity and also quite strange... I fail to see where your passion to keep Metallica out of PA comes from.
 
Anyway, go back to previous answers where you kind of gave some arguments. This picking of others' posts and drawing impossible conclusions doesn't help your cause.


Edited by The T - August 19 2008 at 18:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:31
^ LOLEmbarrassedClap  I kind of figured that Kind of Blue probably was a jazz album since it was from Miles Davis, but with the word "blue" in there I wasn't sure if it was some sort of blues/jazz mix or something.  Thank you for the clarification.  I could very well be the target audience for his inclusion since I really know very little about him other than that Bitches Brew is an album that I should definitely hear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:30

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

[
It rubbed me the wrong way. Don't tell me you didn't have any knee-jerk reactions ... or frustrating situations. I find it odd though that you go to such lengths to explain how horrible it would be for you if Metallica get added, that this place is becoming allmusic.com ... yet if the admins decided to add them you would quietly accept it?

I will focus my replies in constructive posts as your's.
 
I can live with that, it was a knee jerk reaction, I also had some like in the Discipline case in which I PM'd you to say you were right.
 
And believe me, if Metallica is added, I would say nothing more, as I shut up with Radiohead and even The Who.

In my humble opinion this is simply because most of the pure prog bands which get added these days are very obscure. The music is often very hard to find ... I listen to new prog releases all the time, but I've never heard of the artists you mentioned above - and you won't be able to make me feel bad about it. I do what I can - but unfortunately my time is limited.
Mike, the problem is wider, eacgh time a newbie comes here, we have to deal with the same sack of bands that have been rejected ten times, there should be a strike three rule.
 
People don't come here to learn or to talk about Prog, they come here to talk about their favorite bands, no matter they are not Prog.....But this is a prog site, we can be open minded, but this site is PROG ARCHIVES.

Doesn't have to mean that much to me. I really like King Crimson, but seeing them live is not a priority for me. If they came to my home town or somewhere I could travel to in a sensible manner, I would probably go see them.

Look at this paradox...I never hidden I don't like most King Crimson, but I know what they represent, and I believe it's an end of an era
 
IThat's because many people know Boston. Personally, I don't give a flying s..t about them ... never cared, never will. But with this attitude of yours you won't be able to attract people to your additions either. Unfortunately you can't force these things. I think my website is a good thing and would be useful for many people - but I can't make them go there and create accounts. The more you try to convince people, the less will actually take your advice.

That's why a strike three rule should exoist, rejected, one, two, even three times, but 10 or 15 times? This is something we muust avoid.

Cool ... I tip my hat to you. But surely there is a prog band which was recently added/discussed and which you weren't able to check out.
Of course, there are hundreds of new bands I haven't heard, but each time Erik, HT, Guigo, E-Dub or even myself have created threads to promote lesser known bands...nobody cares.
 
People complained.."
 
Why in hell you moved Gentle Giant and King Crimson from Symphonic...We have the right to be informed...We want to know, you dicator, tyrant"
 
You mustremember that Mike, I created a thread explaining every change in the main page....2 replies, Erik Neuteboom and HT (Two of the few persons I knew would be informed about thoise changes and agreed with them)....The rest, ignored it.
 

No - in fact I stalled the addition of metal bands to prog related. It was the admin team, micky and Raffaella (as I recall it) who added Iron Maiden. For over a year this has been the only metal band in prog related, only this week the admin team decided to add Avantasia, without my knowledge. So now that the admin team has decided to expand prog related to metal bands, the addition of Metallica becomes more important to me.

Lets wait and see what happens, until they are added I will talk, then if added I will keep my word and shut up.

I don't care about labels that much. This might sound odd, considering my website and the genre teams and all. I know that Metallica deserve to be added as prog related - and FYI: Iron Maiden tickets aren't sold as Prog Metal either.

 
That's a matter of opinions, I believe Iron Maiden deserves, to be in PR and you believe Metallica...We can agree to disagree.

I respect you too, that goes without saying.Smile

 
Thanks

I have a problem with this:

Iron Maiden: yes
Avantasia: yes
Metallica: no

As someone who knows all three bands very well, I simply think that it makes no sense. It's sending the wrong signal.

Maybe the message is that enough is enough Wink

Well, you know my opinion about certain things here ... genre per album would prevent this, also I would have added Miles Davis as prog related and not allow prog related albums in that spot. But - it's just my opinion.

You know I partially agree, I want to add genres to all Symphonic albums and eras and schools, but it's a monumental task and the urgent always blocks what is necessary.

I would had added Miles only from Bitches Brew and mention that his previous career is Jazz and not Fusion.
 

Remember how I got ridiculed in the Miles Davis thread when I said that his addition would lead to people demanding Coltrane or Coleman? But 40s ... I think that request for Glenn Miller was not entirely serious.Wink

We were two if you remember.

No. I have my own will ... I can live with decisions, but I don't have to pretend in the forum that it was my idea, or that it was a good decision. I would never undermine the admin team or their decisions, but IMO them arriving at a decision doesn't always imply that all discussions about the subject have to stop.

Don't worry Mike I understand you, even when I disagree sometimes.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:30
^ of course - one criterium is not enough. Remember that I would never add Metallica as prog metal ... their music isn't fully fledged prog, except maybe for Orion, AJFA (the track) and a small number of others.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:24
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ you know ... it's odd. Sometimes the very same person can use the same point in favor of one band, but against another. I've often seen that, particularly with time signatures. Some people will point out the use of time signatures in classic prog music, but dismiss it as a superficial element in modern music. Even the holy cow of time signatures - The Rite of Spring - has its critics, who claim that Stravinsky only added the erratic signature changes to adapt the music to the ballet dancing.

Personally, I think that time signature changes, odd time signatures, polyrhythms etc. are a criterium for prog. Of course their use can be bland or uncalled for / unnecessary, but IMO that's more a matter of quality (good/bad) than style (prog/non-prog). Non-prog music uses standard time signatures, it's as simple as that ... some rare exceptions confirm the rule (Take Five comes to my mind ... but that's Jazz).


I've seen it too. And honestly I wouldn't use the same argument for one particular band. I would apply the same reasoning to every band. And I do agree that they are the criteria of prog, but it's not the only one, if not many bands would be here just because they have that only characteristic of prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:21
Kind of Blue is actually a Jazz album ... for many it is even *the* ultimate Jazz recording of all time. I love it ... I might even buy the vinyl edition later this week.Smile
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