The "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51022
Printed Date: December 03 2024 at 01:53
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Topic: The "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: The "Metallica for Prog Related" Poll
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:24
A very simple poll ... just one thing to keep in mind: For each band their most progressive output should be considered. So if you don't know the discographies too well - especially their 80s phases - maybe you should postpone your vote until you do.
Edit: Why did I call this poll "sane"? An outdated question ... I changed the name again, because I never was too happy about the word, I didn't mean to imply that the previous polls were "insane". Well, no offense to those previous polls, but I think that in order to see where people stand on the subject, we should try to be very specific. So this poll is about whether or not Metallica could be added to prog-related, keeping in mind that Iron Maiden (and Avantasia, for that matter) have already been accepted. Removing Iron Maiden is not an option, so we can either reject Metallica, or add them as prog related. This has officially been rejected by M@x and the admin team, and while I respect this addition I believe that there is more support for this addition than was apparent back when the decision was made. So ... maybe they will change their mind ... or not. Leave it in their lap!
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Replies:
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:27
Hehe, Mike knows I've listened to Metallica's first four albums inside out backwards.
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 03:54
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??....
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:05
^
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
So this poll is about whether or not
Metallica could be added to prog-related, keeping in mind that Iron
Maiden (and Avantasia, for that matter) have already been accepted.
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Notice "could" , he didn't say should.
Indeed, M@x might not be keen on the idea, but that doesn't exactly speak of the opinions of others such as myself, MikeEnRegalia et al does it?
It would be nice of this poll could just run a nice course and see how it pans out, please.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:13
No prizes for guessing which I voted - but in case you missed it in the other thread, here's an illuminating interview with Lars which dates from around 1988 (I remembered seeing the whole interview on TV at the time, and good old YouTube has the exact clip I wanted! The interesting bit is about 3 minutes into the interview); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxq4hAbhLg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxq4hAbhLg
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 04:23
Metallica are as least as prog-related as Iron Maiden
IE it's such a stretch that neither should be here, in my opinion.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 05:27
fandango wrote:
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??.... |
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 05:48
for me.... I hold out hope that M@X will see the light so to speak and change his mind.. .and trust his people on the site. Trust is a two way street. If he was to be accepted.. it would be for a damn good reason... not because they were someone's favorite group.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 06:11
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Of course they are. Far more, in my opinion.
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 06:59
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
fandango wrote:
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??.... |
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.
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That's a fair point, Mike.... 
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
Just curious... 
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:26
fandango wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
fandango wrote:
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??.... |
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.
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That's a fair point, Mike....
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
Just curious... |
HughesJB4 wrote:
The point made by Cert in the older thread
Metallica were at the forefront, and "Master Of Puppets" was the
very first of its kind - there was nothing like it before, or even at
the time. Anyone that knows their metal history, as Cert does, would definitely agree with this point. AJFA was easily more progressive than what most of the metal scene, let alone thrash metal, were doing at the time.
Exodus: Concentrated on riffs As did Megadeth really and not a prog trait obviously
Slayer: Absolutely revolutionary, but confined to the narrow area
they chose to explore - and it's a good job they did, because they
were/are fantastic at what they do. "Reign in Blood" is still a
benchmark that has never been surpassed - but it ain't prog! Exactly
Anthrax - you're making me laugh! Indeed Cert.
Kreator - don't confuse technical with progressive. Kreator were never progressive. Fabulous technical thrash though. Although
yes, technical riffs, most the of soloing was very unimpressive, based
around many tremolo picked lines for some of the albums, to hide the
lack of alternate picking ability. Arguably,
the peak of technical thrash around that period, was Megadeth's Rust In
Peace, which featured many tempo changes, a few songs with odd time
signatures, and of course Marty Friedman's lead guitar style which
contained virtuosity perhaps only matched by fellow Bay Area Thrashers.
Testament (Alex Skolnick, guitarist in question, with superb technical
ability). Sorry Kirk, but your playing is not quite up to that level
Sodom - Sod 'em! Haven't really heard them enough, but my understanding is that they were one of the more simple of the thrash bands And of coures, that also helps serve to make a point that the other thrash bands are not justified for inclusion.
I
think it serves to make a point, if you want to understand why
Metallica is just progressive as many 'prog' artists, you have to
listen to it in the correct context, and you absolutely must, know
heavy metal history. We keep forgetting Voivod, one the other pioneers
of combining thrash with prog to make progressive metal. Listen to them
as well, and that will help to make people see how Metallica were truly
progressive.
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The answer is clearly a no, it wouldn't open the gates for other thrash bands of the era, and certainly a pure thrash band is not a progressive band anyway (unlike Voivod and Metallica who produced definitive progressive thrash metal works).
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:42
^ of course I agree. Metallica are the only classic Thrash band from that time which I would add to this website.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 07:59
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Metallica would be a highly controversial addition - there's no doubt - and there would be many, many threads from both angry people and happy people about it, which would probably innundate the site for quite a while.
People have labels for them that are equally as justified as "Prog Metal" - it's not unfair to describe their early output as Heavy Metal or Thrash or whatever else - and most people are comfortable with the one label and are not flexible enough to accept anything other than a magazine or website, etc. tells them.
We had this problem with Radiohead back in the day - now THAT was a controversial addition - but over the years, their inclusion in the Prog community has become very widely accepted (with a few that still dig their heels in!).
There are other problems with Metallica that mainly involve what people associate them with, and that varies depending on the generation mainly. Although people with the musical ears to detect it can hear the unmistakable imprints of Prog in their early music, to some, Metallica are about their self-titled "Black" album and beyond - just as Genesis are about their self-titled album and beyond to a whole generation that wonders about the Prog credentials of Phil Collins.
There is also this notion that Metallica's music is all simple, because the later stuff is - again, Genesis make a suitable parallel - but the bottom-line key for most people is that ALL Metallica's output sounds like Heavy Metal.
This latter is an obvious non-issue, as there are many Prog Metal bands that sound like heavy metal - Meshuggah, to pull a name out of the air at random, Watchtower, as another, right through to obvious Prog bands like Blotted Science.
There's also such a thing as keeping a balance - this site needs people who know about Progressive Rock, and it's got them. It also needs people who know about the fringes - Folk Prog, Electronic Prog, Neo and Modern Prog, for example. We also have experts in these areas, and bands in the archives that attract people who know about this sort of music.
Jazz fusion is an area in which we don't get too many knowledgable people (there are obviously some - Dick Heath springs to mind very quickly), but that would explain why Miles has been added recently.
Does this site need more people who know about metal?
Guess which sort of person Metallica would attract...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: bluesynight
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 10:20
porsenally i would delete all the prog related section.
metallica, black sabath, iron madan and so on and so on, are really great callsical bands, but they are not prog and really shouldnt be here. ar they as prog as maiden? well the answer is yes. but in my opinion maden shouldnt be here nether.
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(Oliver Herford)
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 15:58
Heh - not ONE person has posted to support the unsupportable second option... 
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:31
I don't know either well enough to vote. That said, there can problems with "because x is here, then y which is more progressive should be here." If they are similar, and x was a good addition, then it's not a bad thing. If x is not a good addition, then one risks compounding mistakes. One complaint that is leveled at including "controversial" additions is that it will open the doors to other controversial, or poor, additions.
If I knew Iron Maiden well, but did not think it good for the archives, then I would not think that worthy in the least of justifying Metallica's inclusion (though if in PR then that's up to the PR team to decide). Iron Maiden's inclusion has been controversial -- I think it's better to build a case for it on its own merits based on the qualities of its own music (of course one makes comparisons).
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 17:34
fandango wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
fandango wrote:
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??.... |
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music.
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That's a fair point, Mike....
as a matter of interest, when Metallica were initially rejected at this time, was it on the grounds that Iron Maiden's 'naughties' output has been moving in a steadily more progressive direction than Metallica's, or because if Metallica were to be added, it would open the gates for a whole raft of other thrash bands with progressive overtones??
Just curious... |
I can't remember. I guess it was because of their overall affinity to prog - Steve Harris was quite a fan of 70s prog rock, you can hear it in his bass playing, and throughout their discography they had longer, more complex songs, starting with Phantom of the Opera, through Rime of the Ancient Mariner (which is not that complex, but an epic nonethless) to the epics on their latest albums (Benjamin Breeg, Greater Love of God, The Legacy).
But if you really want to know the reasons, you should ask the admin team - or dig up some of the old threads about them.
BTW: I think that your concerns about all the other thrash bands getting added if we allow Metallica ... but as I already said, I don't quite see that. Indeed, by adding Metallica but not those other bands we could prove that we're not that inclusive, but actually quite picky. The only problem is that many people can't see/hear what sets Metallica apart from those other bands. Well, Master of Puppets has just been re-released on vinyl ...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 23:38
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Well... I actually think Metallica IS progressive-metal, but from the options given, of course it at least as prog-related as Iron Maiden (and in influence over the genre, even more).
Not comparing so different concepts, but people used to believe the world was flat... eventually, even the most ardent "flatists" silenced when "roundism" appeared.
Of course, we CAN't scientifically prove Metallkica is prog metal as they proved the earth is round. BUT... as seen in EVERY THREAD ON THE SUBJECT, those who provide the closest thing to actual evidence are the ones on the Add-metallica side... the opposite side just says "NO".
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 23:52
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The fact that Iron Maiden is here, has no relation with Metallica being here.
1.- Prog Metal team has rejected them
2.- Prog Related has rejected them.
I believe it's case closed.
Miles Davis is here, great, now people are asking for more JAZZ artists, not Fusion, not Prog Related......JAZZ ARTISTS, soon will be asking for Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, this is no Prog Rewlated Archives or Jazz Archives, this is the most insane poll I seen.
That's the problem of opening the gates.
Mike, if you want Metallica added, fight for them in PROG METAL; assume the risk and don't throw it to Prog Related, I'm sure that if you insist, nobody will say a word about it.
Iván
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 00:00
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One nore question Mike...Why is this poll sane?
Maybe because Metallica is loosing miserably in the other.
If people was voting for Metallica to be added in the oher poll, Would you started a second one?
Iván
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 01:26
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Disregarding my low, low opinion of the band, this is what I think:
I don't really agree with Iron Maiden being here, but given that they are here, I would say Metallica is slightly less prog-related, but close enough. In any case, this site seems to be losing its identity gradually, and this will make things worse. What is the use of adding them anyway?
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 02:30
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mike, if you want Metallica added, fight for them in PROG METAL; assume
the risk and don't throw it to Prog Related, I'm sure that if you
insist, nobody will say a word about it.
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I don't think that Metallica are prog metal. Adding them to prog metal would indeed be ridiculous ... I understand why Certif1ed is saying that they're prog metal ... but sometimes a band can be more progressive than Dream Theater and still not be prog metal. All the progressiveness in the world does not change the style of the music.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
One nore question Mike...Why is this poll sane?
Maybe because Metallica is loosing miserably in the other.
If people was voting for Metallica to be added in the oher poll, Would you started a second one?
Iván |
I don't feel so good about that idea, to name the poll "sane". Indeed, you could say that I started it because Metallica were losing. The problem with the other poll was that it was quite vague ... this one is specific. I could also start another one asking whether to add Metallica to prog metal ... I'm sure that it would get even fewer votes in favor of Metallica, even I would vote against them. I called this poll sane because I think it's about the most realistic chance of Metallica getting added. IMHO prog related is the appropriate place for them to be. And yes, Iron Maiden being here has a *lot* to do without it. You can ignore consistency all you want, but I care about it.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 02:39
Logan wrote:
I don't know either well enough to vote. That said, there can problems with "because x is here, then y which is more progressive should be here." If they are similar, and x was a good addition, then it's not a bad thing. If x is not a good addition, then one risks compounding mistakes. One complaint that is leveled at including "controversial" additions is that it will open the doors to other controversial, or poor, additions.
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That's a very good point. I agree ... Iron Maiden are IMHO not a good
benchmark for progressiveness. But we're talking about prog related
here ... and specifically about bands related to prog metal. I don't
think it's merely a coincidence that Dream Theater covered both The
Number of the Beast and Master of Puppets. Of course that alone doesn't
mean that the music is prog related, but looking at the votes so far,
it would seem that many agree.
Logan wrote:
If I knew Iron Maiden well, but did not think it good for the archives, then I would not think that worthy in the least of justifying Metallica's inclusion (though if in PR then that's up to the PR team to decide). Iron Maiden's inclusion has been controversial -- I think it's better to build a case for it on its own merits based on the qualities of its own music (of course one makes comparisons).
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The points were made in countless threads ... by myself and Certif1ed and a number of other people. Even without Iron Maiden Metallica could easily be added as prog related. If you listen to Master of Puppets and And Justice For All - and some of the other important thrash albums of the time, by bands like Slayer, Exodus, Megadeth, Testament etc. - you'll notice a striking difference. If bands like The Beatles or Led Zeppelin can be added as prog (rock) related, Metallica is the *perfect* band to be added as prog (metal) related ... together with Iron Maiden.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 02:54
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I don't think that Metallica are prog metal. Adding them to prog metal would indeed be ridiculous ... I understand why Certif1ed is saying that they're prog metal ... but sometimes a band can be more progressive than Dream Theater and still not be prog metal. All the progressiveness in the world does not change the style of the music.
Then it's the Administrators team responsability, not the Prog Metal Team.
I don't feel so good about that idea, to name the poll "sane". Indeed, you could say that I started it because Metallica were losing.
Call me suspicious Mike, but I'm 100% sure that if Metallica wasdoing betterin the other poll, you would never had started this oine.
You claim that you have diferent perspective about Prog Metal with the Adms, respect that as they respect what you decoide for Prog Metal.
PM is the only genre with three sub - sub- genres, that's more than any other stuyle, mod or genre has, they have the call, and apparently with the support of almost 70% of the voters.
The problem with the other poll was that it was quite vague ... this one is specific.
Please Mike, don't try to sell me that, Metallica could be more related than Iron Maiden, but Maiden could be the worst mistake in this forum.
Again, if you knock an eye with the door and get a wonderful purple color....Do you knock your other eye to make it even? Or you just let the sick eye heal?
I could also start another one asking whether to add Metallica to prog metal ... I'm sure that it would get even fewer votes in favor of Metallica, even I would vote against them.
You are relieving me from commentaries, the majority of the members here and the Adm team don't believe Metallica is Prog Related.....One opinion you should respect.
You don't believe Metallica is Prog Metal...Then there's no other place for them...case closed
I called this poll sane because I think it's about the most realistic chance of Metallica getting added. IMHO prog related is the appropriate place for them to be. And yes, Iron Maiden being here has a *lot* to do without it. You can ignore consistency all you want, but I care about it.
I supported Iron Maiden, I believe Iron Maiden is far more related than Metallica, and my opinion is supported by the persons in charge of this additions.
I don't ignore consistency, but even if Iron Maiden is a mistake...Two mistakes don't make a correct answer in reality, you just make the problem worst.
Each band should be judged EXCLUSIVELY by it's own merits, the owner (apparently) the Administrators and the majority of the members who took their time to vote (in a proportion of 2 to 1) believe Metallica doesn't have the PROGRESSIVE merits to be here.......Accept the facts, doesn't matter how much you want them here, they don't belong according to the vast majority.
I won't ask Crossover, Eclectic or even Prog Related to accept a band Symphonic rejected, do the same.
Iván
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 03:20
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I don't think that Metallica are prog metal. Adding them to prog metal would indeed be ridiculous ... I understand why Certif1ed is saying that they're prog metal ... but sometimes a band can be more progressive than Dream Theater and still not be prog metal. All the progressiveness in the world does not change the style of the music.
Then it's the Administrators team responsability, not the Prog Metal Team.
Of course. This is why I'm simply gathering/presenting opinions here. The admin team and M@x can look at them and *maybe* change their opinion - it's up to them.
I don't feel so good about that idea, to name the poll "sane". Indeed, you could say that I started it because Metallica were losing.
Call me suspicious Mike, but I'm 100% sure that if Metallica wasdoing betterin the other poll, you would never had started this oine.
Isn't that what I just said?
You claim that you have diferent perspective about Prog Metal with the Adms, respect that as they respect what you decoide for Prog Metal.
PM is the only genre with three sub - sub- genres, that's more than any other stuyle, mod or genre has, they have the call, and apparently with the support of almost 70% of the voters.
Can't you see that the other poll had mixed votes? Part of the votes were against Metallica being added as prog metal.
The problem with the other poll was that it was quite vague ... this one is specific.
Please Mike, don't try to sell me that, Metallica could be more related than Iron Maiden, but Maiden could be the worst mistake in this forum.
Again, if you knock an eye with the door and get a wonderful purple color....Do you knock your other eye to make it even? Or you just let the sick eye heal?
From that point of view, the archives are completely bruised. However, it's not my point of view. 
I could also start another one asking whether to add Metallica to prog metal ... I'm sure that it would get even fewer votes in favor of Metallica, even I would vote against them.
You are relieving me from commentaries, the majority of the members here and the Adm team don't believe Metallica is Prog Related.....One opinion you should respect.
You don't believe Metallica is Prog Metal...Then there's no other place for them...case closed
I called this poll sane because I think it's about the most realistic chance of Metallica getting added. IMHO prog related is the appropriate place for them to be. And yes, Iron Maiden being here has a *lot* to do without it. You can ignore consistency all you want, but I care about it.
I supported Iron Maiden, I believe Iron Maiden is far more related than Metallica, and my opinion is supported by the persons in charge of this additions.
I respect your opinion. But this poll shows that there are many who support mine ... which isn't exactly the opposite, since I said "at least as prog-related".
I don't ignore consistency, but even if Iron Maiden is a mistake...Two mistakes don't make a correct answer in reality, you just make the problem worst.
Now ... if you think they're that big a mistake, why did you support them? Talking about consistency ...
Each band should be judged EXCLUSIVELY by it's own merits, the owner (apparently) the Administrators and the majority of the members who took their time to vote (in a proportion of 2 to 1) believe Metallica doesn't have the PROGRESSIVE merits to be here.......Accept the facts, doesn't matter how much you want them here, they don't belong according to the vast majority.
This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place. People can simply compare the most progressive songs of Metallica with the most progressive songs of Iron Maiden. In music you're always making comparisons ... you always need points of reference. Even if you chose Dream Theater as a point of reference, you could see the connection (as Certif1ed pointed out a number of times).
I won't ask Crossover, Eclectic or even Prog Related to accept a band Symphonic rejected, do the same.
IMHO you can always ask.
Iván
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 03:33
regardless of what happens with Metallica, Iron Maiden were an excellent addition to ProgRelated.. I believe it demonstrated a knowledgeable, unbiased understanding of how and when metal became a progressive art form ..Metallica would be an equally appropriate addition
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 05:39
Atavachron wrote:
regardless of what happens with Metallica, Iron Maiden were an excellent addition to ProgRelated.. I believe it demonstrated a knowledgeable, unbiased understanding of how and when metal became a progressive art form ..Metallica would be an equally appropriate addition
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very well said my friend.... 
look... you all can argue till the cows come home about Metallica... but leave Iron Maiden out of it.... they were an excellent addition... and Metallica would be. Take issue with the decision from above not to even consider Metallica here... but let's leave Iron Maiden out of it.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 05:48
^ We cannot leave them out of this discussion. Neither can we leave out all the other prog related bands ... the discussion is about whether Metallica could be added to the category, and for that discussion it's vital to know which bands are already in there. How else could we determine whether they fit in?
Ok, each band should be discussed by their own merits. But in addition we should keep in mind that the limited list of bands we have in prog related should be a selection of "high profile" bands which aren't 100% prog themselves, but are often mentioned in discussions about prog bands and/or highly influential for those bands, and/or feature progressive elements/tendencies in their music. Metallica easily meet all these requirements. Leaving them out would be a *major* inconsistency. Adding them, but neither of the other 80s thrash bands - that would be the perfect solution IMO.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:00
well in my mind Mike.. if you compare them.. .Metallica comes up on the short end of the stick...
as you noted in an earlier post... they early on..Iron Maiden treaded heavily on prog metal.. if never quite reaching it.. and have over time... with later albums come closer and closer to it.
Metallica has not and may be why M@X has vetoed this... who knows.. as usual.. we have no explanation from above.. Metallica become a shell of what they were for a few brief moments in the middle 80's. That is NOT to say Metallica does not deserve inclusion. I think they do. Listen.. we ALL know you disagreed strongly with that decision... but the reason.. and logic behind their inclusion was rock solid. It doesn't serve your purpose to compare the addition of IM to Metallica.. .because they are simply apples and oranges.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:01
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Just found this link, posted by you in a thread a year or so ago, Mike;
http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=band&left=alpha&top=reviews&bandId=403&alpha=m - http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=band&left=alpha&top=reviews&bandId=403&alpha=m
- sadly ProgArchives would not be the first to notice that Metallica wrote Prog Music...
For some reason, that site does not include Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin or Deep Purple 
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:12
^ I read one of the reviews of Master of Puppets ... it begins with "Was hat diese Band bloß auf diesen Seiten verloren? Fragt mich nicht, Leserwünsche machen eben vieles möglich.". Translation:
"What is this band doing on this website? Don't ask me, readers' requests make many things possible."
Fortunately he finishes with "Die Musik erscheint auch komplex genug, um diesen Text auf den Babyblauen Seiten zu rechtfertigen": "The music also seems to be complex enough to justify the presence of this review on these pages".
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:14
^ classic example of a turned man.. eventually they'll kill 'em all
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:18
^ no, but that site does include Evanessence
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What?
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:29
^ wow ... that's not so good.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:31
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Heh - and this site includes (insert name of non-Prog band here)...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:40
^ sure, but Evanescence ... that's inexcusable.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:44
Gentlemen, let's keep it more on topic
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:48
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Just a little comic relief on page 2 ... nothing wrong with that.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 06:49
I guess that's quite alright then
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 07:16
micky wrote:
well in my mind Mike.. if you compare them.. .Metallica comes up on the short end of the stick...
as you noted in an earlier post... they early on..Iron Maiden treaded heavily on prog metal.. if never quite reaching it.. and have over time... with later albums come closer and closer to it.
Metallica has not and may be why M@X has vetoed this... who knows.. as usual.. we have no explanation from above.. Metallica become a shell of what they were for a few brief moments in the middle 80's. That is NOT to say Metallica does not deserve inclusion. I think they do. Listen.. we ALL know you disagreed strongly with that decision... but the reason.. and logic behind their inclusion was rock solid. It doesn't serve your purpose to compare the addition of IM to Metallica.. .because they are simply apples and oranges.
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Indeed, I don't even think Iron Maiden "heavily treaded on prog metal", at least not to a great extent anyway.
Indeed, nor did they keep a consistent approach to "becoming more progressive" over time, as seen quite clearly in the rather straight forward style (compared to earlier releases) of No Prayer for the Dying (1990) and Fear Of the Dark (1992), while finally returning to longer and somewhat more complex material from then onwards.
What, on the other hand, was very clear, was Metallica's approach became more progressive each time from their first album (KEA 1983) to AJFA (1988). Given the band were up and running in 1981, that was certainly earlier than the mid 80s, and indeed, more years of progression/progressiveness in their sound than otherwise suggested. And indeed to my ears, Metallica's first four albums put together are more prog than all of Maiden's output combined.
Having read through various threads on this I think it's safe to say Cert has provided us with some incredibly in depth analysis on how Metallica were very distinct from the rest of the thrash metal pack and also as to why there is no grounds to add the other thrash bands (such as Megadeth, Exodus etc).
To use Iron Maiden in this argument makes a lot more sense than you might realize, because while they represent two different genres of music, there are a lot of parallels in their situation for being here (at least, Iron Maiden CURRENTLY being here), both have a clear lineage of bands they have strongly influenced and at least IMO, Metallica has even more merit to be here under Prog Related than Maiden do.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 11:56
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The other Poll are In-Sane??
I have made my vote by the way
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 12:03
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Of course. This is why I'm simply gathering/presenting opinions here. The admin team and M@x can look at them and *maybe* change their opinion - it's up to them.
Sorry Mike, this IMO has already crossed the line, when YOU don't want a band like Avantasia, you make a scandal, you threatened with leaving, you say you don't want your name in the same site as the Admistrators.
But when you want a band you change thepolls and are manipulating the opinion with a POLL THAT SAYS NOTHING EXCEPT THAT SOMNE PEOPLE BELIEVE METALLICA IS MORE RELATEDTO PROG THA IRON MAIDEN
Isn't that what I just said?
Then Mike...This is manipulation, if somebody did the same trying you to add a band, you would resign (again)
Can't you see that the other poll had mixed votes? Part of the votes were against Metallica being added as prog metal.
Well, it's logical...You are the one that believes Metallica is not Ptog Metal.
I believe Prog Archives has a couple of bruises but haven't harmed us yet, and you said worst things about the site Mike each time you don't agree with a band.
But this doesn't mean we should have more bruises.
I respect your opinion. But this poll shows that there are many who support mine ... which isn't exactly the opposite, since I said "at least as prog-related".
This poll means nothing Mike and you know it, If I made a poll asking if Metallica is more related than the Bee Gees, I'm sure Metallica would win and mean nothing.
If you aask the same people, probably most will say Iron Maiden doesn't believe to be here neither.
BT: Never said that Iron Maiden was a mistake Mike, read my posts
| I supported Iron Maiden, I believe Iron Maiden is far more related than Metallica, and my opinion is supported by the persons in charge of this additions. |
And then said:
| I don't ignore consistency, but even if Iron Maiden is a mistake...Two mistakes don't make a correct answer in reality, you just make the problem worst. |
Clearly saaid that Iron Maiden COULD be a mistake
This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place.
The administrators, the owners and the majority of the voters disagree with you, only 5 people more believe Metallica is slightly Prog Related than Maiden, but not all who vote yes say if any of both bands should be here.
People can simply compare the most progressive songs of Metallica with the most progressive songs of Iron Maiden. In music you're always making comparisons ... you always need points of reference.
I don't believe Metallica has a proggier song than Ryme of the Ancient Mariner or a proggier album than Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.
Even if you chose Dream Theater as a point of reference, you could see the connection (as Certif1ed pointed out a number of times).
Certified has his opinion, I respect his knowledge, but I (as the vast majority here), don't agree with him.
IMHO you can always ask.
But not create poll after polll to take support from the position of another team
If people were insisting in polls about how Avantasia should be in Prog Metal, you would had already made a scandal.
Iván
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 12:26
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Of course. This is why I'm simply gathering/presenting opinions here. The admin team and M@x can look at them and *maybe* change their opinion - it's up to them.
Sorry Mike, this IMO has already croissed the line, when YOU don't want a band like SAvantasia, you make a scandal, ypou threated with leaving, you say you don't want your name in the same site as the Adnibnistrators.
All I asked for was to remove the label of "prog metal specialist" ... I didn't threaten to leave. Sorry, but when I made the request I didn't expect the whole thing to become a scandal.
But when you want a band you change thepolls and are manipulating the opinion with a POLL THAT SAYA NOTHING EXCEPT THAT SOMNE PEOPLE BELIEVE METALLICA IS MORE RELATEDTO PROG THA IRON MAIDEN
I'm not manipulating anything. I simply made a poll with a very clear question. What people make of the results is up to them ... I don't expect Metallica to be accepted because of it, although I admit that I think that it will eventually happen.
Isn't that what I just said?
Then Mike...This is manipulation, if somebody did the same trying you to add a band, you would resign (again)
Really, I said nothing about resigning.
Can't you see that the other poll had mixed votes? Part of the votes were against Metallica being added as prog metal.
Well, it's logical...You are the one that believes Metallica is not Ptog Metal.
Then it is also logical for me to create this thread ... where's the problem?
I believe Prog Archives has acouple of bruises but haven't harmed us yet, and you said worst things about the site Mike each time you don't agree with a band.
But this doesn't mean we should have more bruises.
That's absolutely not true. Metallica are a rare exception ... I got very passionate about them back when Iron Maiden were added, and a few days ago when Avantasia were accepted - as the second prog related metal band in the archives. I react this strongly simply because I feel that the decision whether to add Metallica or not is very important.
I respect your opinion. But this poll shows that there are many who support mine ... which isn't exactly the opposite, since I said "at least as prog-related".
This poll means nothing Mike and you know it, If I made a poll asking if Metallica is more related than the Bee Gees, I'm sure Metallica would win and mean nothing.
It would mean something if the Bee Gees were added to the archives.
If you aask the same people, probably most will say Iron Maiden doesn't believe to be here neither.
But they are here. That means something.
BT: Never said that Iron Maiden was a mistake Mike, read my posts
Then why can't you accept that many think that Metallica are at least as much related to prog as Iron Maiden? That's all this poll is about.
| I supported Iron Maiden, I believe Iron Maiden is far more related than Metallica, and my opinion is supported by the persons in charge of this additions. |
And then said:
| I don't ignore consistency, but even if Iron Maiden is a mistake...Two mistakes don't make a correct answer in reality, you just make the problem worst. |
Clearly saaid that Iron Maiden COULD be a mistake
This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place.
The administrators, the owners and the majority of the voters disagree with you, only 5 people more believe Metallica is slightly Prog Related than Maiden, but not all who vote yes say if any of both bands should be here.
Removing Iron Maiden is not an option ... you said yourself that they belong here (as prog related). Keeping that in mind, if someone votes yes in this poll, we can safely deduce that that person wants Metallica to be added as prog related. Consistency ... we cannot add X but not Y, if there's as much (or more) reason to add Y as there is to add X.
People can simply compare the most progressive songs of Metallica with the most progressive songs of Iron Maiden. In music you're always making comparisons ... you always need points of reference.
I don't believe Metallica has a proggier song than Ryme of the Ancient Mariner or a proggier album than Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.
Most of Seventh Son (the album) is very straight metal. Rime of the Ancient Mariner is essentially a long track with multiple sections, but each of them are quite simple. Please, listen to Orion, or Master of Puppets (the track), or And Justice for All (the track).
Even if you chose Dream Theater as a point of reference, you could see the connection (as Certif1ed pointed out a number of times).
Certified has his opinion, I respect his knowledge, but I (as the vast majority here), don't agree with him.
Well ... I certainly don't often agree with him, so in the few situations in which we do agree I feel especially encouraged by it.
IMHO you can always ask.
But not create polñl after polll to take support from the position of another team
If people were insisting in polls about how Avantasia should be in Prog Metal, you would had already made a scandal.
Iván
Please - I think this is the first poll related to band additions which I created in months, if not a year. Avantasia ... I have already said that I'm cool with adding them, it's adding them but rejecting Metallica which I have a problem with.
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 12:50
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IMO,
Basically Metallica is more progressive than Iron Maiden, Yet Iron Maiden is more prog-related than Metallica.
Metallica doesn't belong in PR because their influence on and from prog is really minor, their music in a way can be considered progressive in it's own right, but that's often the case with leading bands of a new sub-culture/genre, while with Iron Maiden it's in a way the other way around, though limitedly progressive themselves their influence on and from prog rock is more extensive, songs like Rhyme of teh ancient mariner is not progressive, but is very much influenced by progresive rock music and structures. their later phase albums are leanin g towards prog-metal aswell.
well something like that.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 13:18
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There are two kinds of music: good music and bad music. Yes, it's really that simple.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 13:35
WinterLight wrote:
There are two kinds of music: good music and bad music. Yes, it's really that simple. |
Quoting FZ more or less: It that music exist, is because someone are hearing!!!
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Posted By: M@X
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 13:55
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
fandango wrote:
I thought that mailto:M@x - M@x wasn't keen on the idea of Metallica being added to PA...in which case, isn't this exercise academic??.... |
Back when Iron Maiden were added, Metallica were rejected. But that doesn't mean that this decision is carved in stone ... and even if they never get added, we can still indulge in this academic exercise ... after all, we're here to discuss music. |
I am indeed more open to the addition of METALLICA that I was before , because the PROG RELATED sub-genre is now more understood and better integrated with the site.
The artist listed-in now are totally justified. Having adding METALLICA at the beginning of the PROG RELATED genre would have beed really a bad move. Now I am more keane to the idea.
So.... let's share your vote.
PS: I voted METALLICA less PROG RELATED than IRON MAIDEN ;-)
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Prog On !
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:08
^ Cool! I agree with what you're saying - it makes much sense to proceed with caution.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:10
WinterLight wrote:
There are two kinds of music: good music and bad music. Yes, it's really that simple.
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I thought it were Western and Country?
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:49
tuxon wrote:
IMO,
Metallica doesn't belong in PR because their influence on and from prog is really minor, (...) |
Actually, tux, their influence on Prog Metal is very, very major - or possibly modal...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:50
M@X wrote:
Now I am more keane to the idea.
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You're not thinking of adding Keane, are you mailto:M@X - M@X ?   
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:56
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 14:59
Mike wrote:
| This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place. |
Not longer Mike, Metallica is loosing here also.
Iván
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:19
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mike wrote:
| This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place. |
Not longer Mike, Metallica is loosing here also.
Iván |
That's right Ivan... i read your post and you think equally about Metallica as i.
Cheers Ivan
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:21
zafreth wrote:
That's right Ivan... i read your post and you think equally about Metallica as i. |
Insofar that neither one of you have evinced anything resembling thought beyond personal prejudice. It amazes me (although I might be naive) that: 1) people refuse to consider certain bands with an open mind, and 2) people wring their hands over such trivial topics.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:33
WinterLight wrote:
Insofar that neither one of you have evinced anything resembling thought beyond personal prejudice.
WinterLight i have not prejudice about Metallica, in fact i liked those albums until the Black Album that never have listen complete. But i Strong consider Metallica a "Rock band".
It amazes me (although I might be naive) that: 1) people refuse to consider certain bands with an open mind,
Well i ask direct, why to add Metallica to PA, if you can write long and detailed reviews in other metal specialized sites???
and 2) people wring their hands over such trivial topics.
Why not??? this is a friendly forum...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:39
WinterLight wrote:
zafreth wrote:
That's right Ivan... i read your post and you think equally about Metallica as i. |
Insofar that neither one of you have evinced anything resembling thought beyond personal prejudice. It amazes me (although I might be naive) that: 1) people refuse to consider certain bands with an open mind, and 2) people wring their hands over such trivial topics.
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Seems you haven't read the earlier posts Winter Light.
IMO Metallica is a Thrash Metal band with no Prog eklements, befrore giving my opinion, I took the time to listen the allegedly more Propg albums and found nothing that made me think in Prog.
I don't refuse to consider any band with open mind:
- I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
- I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
- I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
- I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boston and Metallica are more important.
- I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
- I refuse to see people not accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them.
- I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our throats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we did and still do it for lave to PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Singer Songwritter, etc.
BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of place to create a 10 pages thread about Boston, Metallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.
Iván
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:44
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mike wrote:
| This poll shows the opposite. You may complain about the comparison with Iron Maiden ... but Metallica's own merits are the basis for making the comparison in the first place. |
Not longer Mike, Metallica is loosing here also.
Iván |
Let's wait a little while longer ... the thread isn't even (EDIT: 48) hours old.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 15:49
Wow Ivan, that's a really punch in the face!!!!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:00
zafreth wrote:
Wow Ivan, that's a really punch in the face!!!! |
This is not a contest or a boxing match.
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:01
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
Worse things have happened.
I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
What is a "real 100% Prog" band?
I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
That's easy enough to solve: don't read those threads (and spare the hyperbole).
I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
Guess not everyone shares your opinion?
I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
Despite clear arguments in support that these bands are progressive. Trust me: it's alright to question of authority, especially authority which fails to legitimize itself (we're not exactly talking about technical, scholarly knowledge--it's just pop music after all).
I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
The majority can be misguided, or just plain wrong. In any case, it's by no means incontestable that the "majority" (of who exactly) disapprove of Metallica's inclusion into the archive.
I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
By that argument, we should remove King Crimson from the archive in view of Fripp's rejection of the description "progressive."
On the bright side, though, only 88 more theses to post and you can begin the Reformation.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:03
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:04
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
- I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
How many prog related bands are there ... 100, 150? Of more than 3000 prog bands. Come on ...
- I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
How do you know that people are not caring? Just because the Metallica discussion has been revived by recent discussions about Miles Davis and Sting? These discussions have come and gone ... none of them has really lasted longer than a week or two.
- I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
Sorry, but I don't see what's that interesting about that tour. Sure, seeing King Crimson on stage is great, but talking about these shows ... what's the novelty?
- I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
When did that happen? Tell me more about it ... but first: Have you listened to Panzerballet yet? No? Shame on you! Let's be realistic ... none of us has the time to listen to or check out all the lesser known artists that exist on this planet.
- I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
This has nothing to do with Metallica being my favorite band. They're not even my favorite band, although I value them highly. Also, I agree that they're not prog. Neither are Queen, Led Zeppelin - or Iron Maiden. Prog Related - which you wrote the description for if I remember correctly - is, among other things, for highly influential bands which came close to playing prog, but didn't quite "cross the line". No matter how this poll turns out, it's obvious that many people think that they're one of a handful of important metal bands which would make sense to be added as prog related.
- I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
I can respect these opinions, but I don't have to "adopt" them ... of course I would be glad if this poll turned out in favor of the addition, but if it doesn't it won't change my opinion. In any case, I will accept the admins' decision.
- I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson doesn't like being called "prog" either ... obviously that doesn't stop us. Besides, let's emphasize again that I'm not calling Metallica "prog".
If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we doid it for PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Sibnger Songwritter, etc. Let me repeat again that this website has accepted a very small number of prog related / proto prog bands. Nobody's "opening the flood gates". If I hadn't brought up Metallica, won't you instead complain about Avantasia, whose addition I had nothing to do with? Please, I'm not your enemy. I don't think that we need many more prog related bands in the archives, I just think that Metallica are one of the few that are vital.
BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of lace to create a 10 opages thread about Boston, NMetallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.
That's why we're not adding thousands of non prog bands.
Iván |
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:17
The T wrote:
[
I clearly understand your logic and it seems it was the best course of actin. When the site had but 10 prog-related bands, a big name as Metallica which causes a lot of controversy in regards to its relation to prog would've been more problematic. Now the situation can be looked upon with much more reasoning and less prejudice.
Yeah in that logic, Korn and RATM has also Proggy elements no?????
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:25
^ I can't see any logic in your deduction. Of course we should be careful not to "water down" the definition of prog related. The more bands there are, the easier it is to make an argument for an inclusion - the dreaded "X -> Y" rule. I remember how prog related started ... Queen were one of the first bands to be added, and back then I remember that Led Zeppelin were also suggested, but rejected. More and more prog related bands were added, and at one point Led Zeppelin were put back on the map and finally added.
I don't want to see this happen with metal bands ... rather the reverse. Still, Metallica are one of the few bands which IMHO are perfect for prog related.
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Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:34
Sorry if this has been asked before. I haven't read the other pages that much.
For what reason are we going to add Metallica(if "approved")? because of their influence on the progressive metal genre? or because they are prog metal, prog related or however you call it?
Personally I can't hear any "progressive" elements in their music and I don't think that having odd times and long songs makes you prog. Also, I don't know much about Metallica(I only have Master Of Puppets and S&M) but I clearly I cannot se any relation between Metallica and prog unless your reffering to the influencethey had on some progressive metal bands. If thats the reason "maybe" they should be considered
Just my opinion...
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"I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..."
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:46
^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent.
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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:47
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WinterLight wrote:
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]
I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
Worse things have happened.
Yes of course, an asteroid could fall on our heads, but that's out of our reach, we can solve what we are working for, what WE created in 5 years of work
I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
What is a "real 100% Prog" band?
Yes, Genesis (Early), King Crimnson, Kansas, PFM, Anglagard, Par Lindh Project, Focuds, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, After Crying, Disclipline, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Rick Wakeman, Steve Hackett, Frank Zappa, Factor Burzaco, Anton Roolaart, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc Ponty, ;Mike Oldfield, etc...Do they say anything to you?
I refuse to see 10 pages of Metallica and barely one page about the probably last King Crimson tour in a Progressive Rock site.
That's easy enough to solve: don't read those threads (and spare the hyperbole).
That's easy to say for a newcomer with 198 posts, but many of us have placed our efforts (and still do it) creating something unique and special.
I may isagree with collabirators like Mike, Micky, Raffaella, or others, but I seen them every day for years working hard, even at 2 or 3 am and raff waking at 5 am to work every day with the Symphonic Team.
With them we cleaned 519 bandsone by one, it took us almost a year, we don't want to let this work disappear.
I refuse to close my eyes, that won't change reality and won't save us from the risk of loosing credibility, and honestly, I care for this site.
I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
Guess not everyone shares your opinion?
This proves that many people haven't joined PROG ARCHIVES....THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE because of Prog.
http://www.progarchives.com/">
I refuse to see the opinion of the adminuistrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
Despite clear arguments in support that these bands are progressive. Trust me: it's alright to question of authority, especially authority which fails to legitimize itself (we're not exactly talking about technical, scholarly knowledge--it's just pop music after all).
That authority has been chosen by the OWNERS, the peope who placed their money in this site you are enjoying for free, How can we question them?
Authority that faills to legitimize itself?????
Please..legitimacy is earned with resources, effort, money and work, the owners put the money and a lot of work, the Adms put the hard work, the Collaborators put their sacrifice and their time for free...Don't you believe we earned our legitimity?
POP?, well I don't agree with that (maybe in the case of Metallica, but still I doubt it). Pop has it's own parameters and characteristics different to Progressive Rock, and if you don't find them, I understand why you are having problems with this issues.
I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
The majority can be misguided, or just plain wrong. In any case, it's by no means incontestable that the "majority" (of who exactly) disapprove of Metallica's inclusion into the archive.
So..We must ignore the owners, the Administrators, the Collaborators the members and believe you?
We are all misguided and you are right?
I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
By that argument, we should remove King Crimson from the archive in view of Fripp's rejection of the description "progressive."
He has a dislike for categorization, but has never rejected the term Proggressive neither the characteristics of their music, but Metallica is explicit, they claim to be a METAL BAND and nothing more.
On the bright side, though, only 88 more theses to post and you can begin the Reformation.
The reformation has started long before you joined, a reformation created with work and love for the site and Prog.
Iván
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:48
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent. |
You repeat that argument in previous Threads??? why???
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:52
^ I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:53
I could not agree more with Ivan.
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:58
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I think it's a combination of both. Certif1ed posted some specific examples of the progressiveness in those Metallica albums ... the most obvious examples are Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. Do you own any other important thrash albums from that time? I think the difference between for example Slayer - Reign in Blood and Metallica - Master of Puppets is quite apparent.
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I don't think I own other albums form this particular time and I know the difference between those bands just like you said, it's pretty clear. Yet I still stand by my opinion and I clearly understand their influence on progressive metal and I just can't see their relation to prog other than being this one and if it's that one I'll accept it.
I'm only stating my opinion...and not relating it to the Miles Davis and the Avantasia additions (honestly I've never heard of them up until now).
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"I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..."
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 16:59
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Agree 100% with you Ivan, i rembember the first time i visit PA, it was a site in construction, when i became a forum member in 2006, the site was enormously... and by now it's really a huge influential site.
Cheers to all that have sacrified time, effort and diversions to run this wonderful site that yes we all enjoy for free, nothing more nothing less.
I personally being friend of Cesar Inca and Memowakeman, and they are also a very connoseiur of prog rock themes.
Alberto
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:04
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Since Ivan mentioned the AllMusic Guide, here is their definition of Thrash music.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:373 - http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:373
Thrash was essentially the sound of underground heavy metal during the '80s, dominated by a driving, percussive approach to rhythm guitar (thanks to a pick-hand technique called palm muting) and furious levels of aggression. Thrash was often technically accomplished, taken at fast tempos, and emphasized heavy, sometimes atonal guitar riffs over melody; however, these generalizations are far from absolute rules. In its early days, thrash was essentially the same thing as speed metal, the product of American bands who in the early '80s fused the lean, vicious attack of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal with the tempos of hardcore punk and http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:MOTORHEAD - Motorhead . However, the dexterity and constant intensity required to play speed metal proved limiting to some, and a variety of different approaches quickly took shape: some thrash bands concentrated more on midtempo grooves, occasionally accelerating into speed-metal realms; some, like http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:METALLICA - Metallica and http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:MEGADETH - Megadeth , used their instrumental technique to craft more intricate and progressive music; others emphasized the music's aggression to project theatrically menacing images. Thrash provided a harder, heavier, more authentically metallic alternative to the accessible pop-metal bands who dominated the charts in the late '80s, and despite a dearth of airplay, it became quite popular, so much so that when http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:METALLICA - Metallica and http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:MEGADETH - Megadeth streamlined their sound to make it more accessible in the early '90s, they became instant superstars. Diehard underground metalheads took refuge in the thrash-inspired death and black metal styles, which took thrash's dark subject matter and visceral force to intentionally disturbing extremes.
In blue, their reference to Metallica and Megadeth crafting "progressive music". Their definition, not Mike's or Certs. As weird as it may seem to some there really is some rationale behind it.
As I posted in one of the other threads I really never considered Metallica to be a thrash band other than with their Kill 'em All and some of Garage Days.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:08
Progressive music in Thrash Style, well Allmusic has to explain more about this sentence...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:12
tuxon wrote:
IMO,
Basically Metallica is more progressive than Iron Maiden, Yet Iron Maiden is more prog-related than Metallica.
Metallica doesn't belong in PR because their influence on and from prog is really minor, their music in a way can be considered progressive in it's own right, but that's often the case with leading bands of a new sub-culture/genre, while with Iron Maiden it's in a way the other way around, though limitedly progressive themselves their influence on and from prog rock is more extensive, songs like Rhyme of teh ancient mariner is not progressive, but is very much influenced by progresive rock music and structures. their later phase albums are leanin g towards prog-metal aswell.
well something like that. |
I agree strongly with 99% of your post Gerald.. right up to the point where you say their influence is minor... I hear Metallica all over DT... that is like saying Stavinsky wasn't an influence on Symphonic prog.
However... the rest.. spot on.. Metallica did do prog metal albums.. and this ... all these threads and everything would have NEVER happened if people got rid of the silly idea that this site is GROUP orientated.. not music orientated. Metallica should have been included in Prog Metal... to some though.. that is the same as saying the Metallica IS a prog group.. .whoa.... anyone care to define.. just WHAT a 'prog group' is. oh yeah.. . groups that only did prog would be the logical answer. Then 86 3/4 of the database and banish it to Prog Related... or would the answer be that they are not KNOWN as a prog group. Try telling me that.... and I'll tell you this site with a VERY few exceptions.. then would 86 damn near every group AFTER 1979. Groups today trip over themselves not to be 'known' as prog.
What we judge here is music... Metallica were not prog related... but were over the course of 2 or 3 albums.. Prog Metal... and that team could have.. and maybe should have added them and 'this' never would this come about.
Iron Maiden is .. if we are to be correct.. far more Prog Related than Metallica. That is why they were added.. and have long been the only PM related addition. That explains my vote. However since the PMT did not take the group.. it comes down to Prog Related.. or nothing.. and this IS an important group in Prog Metal.. and aren't we here to be the 'Ultimate Prog Resource' Metallica did do prog albums.. so while Prog Related is not the best choice... hence the stupidity of comparing them to Iron Maiden which was a sound addition..... they should still be added.
my two cents.. and final two cents.. you all are yapping at each other.. and don't think many of you are really listening to each other at this point.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:19
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes of course, an asteroid could fall on our heads, but that's out of our reach, we can solve what we are working for, what WE created in 5 years of work
Metallica or asteroid? Your hyperbole would be laughable if it weren't so predominant.
Yes, Genesis (Early), King Crimnson, Kansas, PFM, Anglagard, Par Lindh Project, Focuds, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, After Crying, Disclipline, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Rick Wakeman, Steve Hackett, Frank Zappa, Factor Burzaco, Anton Roolaart, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc Ponty, ;Mike Oldfield, etc...Do they say anything to you?
Not sure what the question means: they don't "say anything" to me.
That's easy to say for a newcomer with 198 posts, but many of us have placed our efforts (and still do it) creating something unique and special. Sorry for crashing your exclusive club.
This proves that many people haven't joined PROG ARCHIVES....THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE because of Prog.
http://www.progarchives.com/">
Is that supposed to be sarcasm? Try again, please.
That authority has been chosen by the OWNERS, the peope who placed their money in this site you are enjoying for free, How can we question them?
Sure, we can question their decisions, and they can choose to ignore our questions. I agree that, ultimately, the decision lies with them. This doesn't mean that their decision isn't poorly made.
Authority that faills to legitimize itself?????
Please..legitimacy is earned with resources, effort, money and work, the owners put the money and a lot of work, the Adms put the hard work, the Collaborators put their sacrifice and their time for free...Don't you believe we earned our legitimity?
Legitimacy is earned through reason not wealth.
POP?, well I don't agree with that (maybe in the case of Metallica, but still I doubt it). Pop has it's own parameters and characteristics different to Progressive Rock, and if you don't find them, I understand why you are having problems with this issues.
There's popular music and serious music (i.e., classical music). It may not appeal to your elitism, but it's true enough. Prog is just clever pop music.
So..We must ignore the owners, the Administrators, the Collaborators the members and believe you?
We are all misguided and you are right?
You don't have to believe me at all--I make no claims to infallibility.
He has a dislike for categorization, but has never rejected the term Proggressive neither the characteristics of their music, but Metallica is explicit, they claim to be a METAL BAND and nothing more.
That an artist chooses not to define his work in some particular vocabulary does not preclude a reasonable characterization in that context. Again, this is elementary--elementary to the point that I feel somewhat silly in actually articulating it.
The reformation has started long before you joined, a reformation created with work and love for the site and Prog. Evidently, you don't understand my allusion to your pontification.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:21
Here's the Allmusic Review of And Justice For All:
| Review |
by Steve Huey |
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The most immediately noticeable aspect of ...And Justice for All isn't Metallica's still-growing compositional sophistication or the apocalyptic lyrical portrait of a society in decay. It's the weird, bone-dry production. The guitars buzz thinly, the drums click more than pound, and http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifyxq8gldae - Jason Newsted 's bass is nearly inaudible. It's a shame that the cold, flat sound obscures some of the sonic details, because ...And Justice for All is Metallica's most complex, ambitious work; every song is an expanded suite, with only two of the nine tracks clocking in at under six minutes. It takes a while to sink in, but given time, ...And Justice for All reveals some of Metallica's best material. It also reveals the band's determination to pull out all the compositional stops, throwing in extra sections, odd-numbered time signatures, and dense webs of guitar arpeggios and harmonized leads. At times, it seems like they're doing it simply because they can; parts of the album lack direction and probably should have been trimmed for momentum's sake. Pacing-wise, the album again loosely follows the blueprint of http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:w9fixqq5ldte - Ride the Lightning , though not as closely as http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:39foxqq5ldte - Master of Puppets . This time around, the fourth song — once again a ballad with a thrashy chorus and outro — gave the band one of the unlikeliest Top 40 singles in history; "One" was an instant metal classic, based on Dalton Trumbo's antiwar novel Johnny Got His Gun and climaxing with a pulverizing machine-gun imitation. As a whole, opinions on ...And Justice for All remain somewhat divided: some think it's a slightly flawed masterpiece and the pinnacle of Metallica's progressive years; others see it as bloated and overambitious. Either interpretation can be readily supported, but the band had clearly taken this direction as far as it could. The difficulty of reproducing these songs in concert eventually convinced Metallica that it was time for an overhaul.
Well.. acording with this review Metallica can't reproduce live these songs???? interest discover....
T, Cert and Winter, correct me i this guy is wrong... |
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:24
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
How many prog related bands are there ... 100, 150? Of more than 3000 prog bands. Come on ...
Then Mike, answer me one question...Why did you asked your tag to be removed when Avantasia was added asa Prog Related band?
The "Come on" argument only works for you?
I haven't threatened anybody, if Metallica is added I will close my mouth and accept it.
I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
How do you know that people are not caring? Just because the Metallica discussion has been revived by recent discussions about Miles Davis and Sting? These discussions have come and gone ... none of them has really lasted longer than a week or two.
Because as an individual and as a team I have addec pure Prog bands in the last months and nobody gives a damn, sometimes two replies from the usual suspects (Logan, Atavachron, Ricochet, Micky, and a couple more).
But a thread about Boston is opemned and we have 100 posts.
Sorry, but I don't see what's that interesting about that tour. Sure, seeing King Crimson on stage is great, but talking about these shows ... what's the novelty?
Is the goodbye tour of the most rep´resentative band of all Prog and the one that created the bases for Symphonic, which is by far the most popular sub-genre....This means a lot.
I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
When did that happen? Tell me more about it ...
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Shadow Circus: a and willing to collaborate with Prog Archives, with a member asking for attention, and still:
[quoite]
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
February 10 2007 at 15:50 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=33887&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28306&KW=Shadow+Circus - New Prog: Shadow Circus
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , September 07 2006 at 16:39 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
September 07 2006 at 16:39 |
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But on the other hand:
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| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49141&KW=Boston - boston dvd
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1298 - rick gryphon , June 03 2008 at 09:06 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=19934 - Josh_M
June 03 2008 at 14:51 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=49141&KW=Boston"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45395&KW=Boston - Boston's Tom Scholz is angry...
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8274 - Angelo , January 16 2008 at 16:23 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123 - Easy Livin
January 16 2008 at 17:20 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=45395&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston - Boston???
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12504 - ghost_of_morphy , November 11 2007 at 13:50
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=BostonPN=8 - 8 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=9 - 9 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123 - Easy Livin
November 14 2007 at 03:37 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42436&KW=Boston - The Fall Progtacular - 10/24, Boston, MA
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3200 - Empathy , October 09 2007 at 16:26 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3200 - Empathy
October 09 2007 at 16:26 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=42436&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston - Boston are they prog related ?
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12347 - lighthouse , March 13 2007 at 21:39
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=8 - 4 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3717 - Ghost Rider
March 19 2007 at 11:33 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35315&KW=Boston - Brad Delp of Boston Found Dead By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8024 - WaywardSon , March 09 2007 at 21:34 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7051 - E-Dub
March 16 2007 at 22:33 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=35315&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=4 - General discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston - Boston Police are idiots
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9032 - OpethGuitarist , February 01 2007 at 11:44
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22 - Jim Garten
February 08 2007 at 07:22 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30713&KW=Boston - Boston Album Poll By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8024 - WaywardSon , November 04 2006 at 11:03 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7695 - bhikkhu
November 06 2006 at 09:35 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=30713&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=19 - Prog News, Press Releases |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29156&KW=Boston - Porcupine Tree Boston "In-Store" Appearence
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2153 - Tony R , September 29 2006 at 14:51 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10425 - APleasantSymmet
October 02 2006 at 01:48 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=29156&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26747&KW=Boston - Rockstar TOUR FREE Concert in Boston
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9339 - shaheenr , July 31 2006 at 17:03 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9339 - shaheenr
July 31 2006 at 17:03 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=26747&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24834&KW=Boston - New band: Boston
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8892 - Hook , June 16 2006 at 10:39 | |
On thread has 170, others 56 and 64, AND THEY ARE NOT EVEN HERE
but first: Have you listened to Panzerballet yet? No? Shame on you! Let's be realistic ... none of us has the time to listen to or check out all the lesser known artists that exist on this planet.
For your uinformation, I pay a lot of attention to Fusion bands and panzerballet was precisely one of thse releases that inmediately listened, didn't liked it, but I recognize they are good.
I refuse to see the opinion of the administrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
This has nothing to do with Metallica being my favorite band. They're not even my favorite band, although I value them highly. Also, I agree that they're not prog. Neither are Queen, Led Zeppelin - or Iron Maiden. Prog Related - which you wrote the description for if I remember correctly - is, among other things, for highly influential bands which came close to playing prog, but didn't quite "cross the line". No matter how this poll turns out, it's obvious that many people think that they're one of a handful of important metal bands which would make sense to be added as prog related.
If they are important for Metal, keep them in metal, you already have Prog Metal, Extreme Tech Metal and another third sub-genre, now you want to add metal bands also to Prog Related?
I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
I can respect these opinions, but I don't have to "adopt" them ... of course I would be glad if this poll turned out in favor of the addition, but if it doesn't it won't change my opinion. In any case, I will accept the admins' decision.
There we agree
I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson doesn't like being called "prog" either ... obviously that doesn't stop us. Besides, let's emphasize again that I'm not calling Metallica "prog".
Steve Wilson can talk whatever he wants, but he and his band present themselves in exclusively PROGRESSIVE ROCK FESTIVALS. their tickets are sold as PROGRESSIVE ROCK CONCERTS, Metallica is sold as Metal.
If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we doid it for PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Sibnger Songwritter, etc.
Let me repeat again that this website has accepted a very small number of prog related / proto prog bands. Nobody's "opening the flood gates". If I hadn't brought up Metallica, won't you instead complain about Avantasia, whose addition I had nothing to do with? Please, I'm not your enemy. I don't think that we need many more prog related bands in the archives, I just think that Metallica are one of the few that are vital.
By the contrary Mike, I consuider you a friend for whom Ihjave respect, but why the problem about Avastacia (Band with whom I disagreed if you chhexck the thread, but once added I shut my mouth in respect for those who decided) if it's only one band?
Why did you made an issue about Iron Maiden? It's only one band also...But 1 + 1 + 1 is three and keeps growing, now we have albums released in 1959 as the most popular PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUM OF THE WEEK
And to make it worst:
- Not Prog
- Not Rock
- Not Fusion
People is claiming for 100% JAZZ artists of the 40's
When is this stopping?
BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of lace to create a 10 opages thread about Boston, NMetallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.
That's why we're not adding thousands of non prog bands.
Then accept Avastacia, The Doors, Iron Maiden, etc with the same effort you place on Metallica..
Iván [/QUOTE]
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:28
zafreth wrote:
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| The difficulty of reproducing these songs in concert eventually convinced Metallica that it was time for an overhaul.
Well.. acording with this review Metallica can't reproduce live these songs???? interest discover....
T, Cert and Winter, correct me i this guy is wrong... |
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No, the author isn't incorrect, but I think that your interpretation is. He observes that it was difficult to reproduce those songs live, not that they couldn't reproduce it. Kirk Hammett makes a similar remark on Behind the Music. He noted that the tour (which was about 18 months, I believe) became an nightly exercise in perfectionism. It was an emotional nadir for them, especially since it was their first tour without Burton. In the end, that wanted to simplify their music, and that they did with the subsequent album.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:32
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My interpretation??? sorry dude i have no made and interpretation at all , is a question hahaha.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:33
burritounit wrote:
I don't think I own other albums form this particular time and I know
the difference between those bands just like you said, it's pretty
clear. Yet I still stand by my opinion and I clearly understand their
influence on progressive metal and I just can't see their relation to
prog other than being this one and if it's that one I'll accept it.
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no problem at all. I'll give you a few examples, track by track :
Battery: Notice the multi layered, majestic intro. In the song itself, notice how the structure is based on seemingly erratic numbers of bars. Normally songs - even in thrash metal - are structured on even numbers of bars, typically 4 or 8 of them form a part which is then repeated. In Battery you have groups of 3 bars mixed with groups of 2 (chorus) , sometimes one odd bar is thrown in.
Master of Puppets: It's an epic. Ok, it's only 8:35 long, but it consists of several parts which are very cleverly connected. First you have the intro. In the verse you have the famous 4/4+5/8 riff. The chorus is oddly disrupted by the "Master, Master" vocals, the guitars play really complex riffs, reminding of AJFA. Then the interlude follows, with very gentle melodies and a Hetfield solo which injects some Hard Rock/Blues into the music, which rarely ever happens in Metallica (or Thrash in general). It's how they turn these very different elements into a homogeneous whole. The interlude seamlessly turns into a heavier bridge with a modified version of the chorus vocals. Then follows a short solo, then follows a really cool riff, followed by the intro riff. Only now, after all those transitions, the second verse starts, followed by the chorus again. After a few repetitions we get a short outro.
The Thing That Should Not Be: The atonality of the main riff (and of the short solo) simply amazes me. Granted, this is an attribute of Thrash, not Prog. But you won't find any similar track on other Thrash releases of the time, especially considering how the bass is involved in those riffs. Plus, if you are looking for novelties: They used drop D tuning, which few bands used back then. A minor thing, but still.
Welcome Home (Sanitarium): Intro and verse are alternating between 4/4 and 6/4. Also, how they manage to seamlessly switch between different tempos/moods is unmatched compared to their peer. Megadeth come close in their best moments, but don't quite reach the level of perfection/sophistication. BTW: Starting at 4:50 we get some very cool guitar harmonies again, reminding of the Battery intro.
Disposable Heroes, Leper Messiah: Not much to say apart from some odd/unusual time signatures and tempo changes. Pretty cool songs though. Plus Disposable Heroes is continuing the concept.
Orion: No comment necessary. Cliff 'em All!
Damage, Inc.: Pretty cool intro - again nice guitar harmonies, this time with the use of the volume knob.
Summary: If you're looking for the progressive moments, focus on the Battery intro & structure, the title track, The Thing that Should Not Be, Welcome Home (Sanitarium) and of course, the fantastic Orion.
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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:33
micky wrote:
tuxon wrote:
IMO,
Basically Metallica is more progressive than Iron Maiden, Yet Iron Maiden is more prog-related than Metallica.
Metallica doesn't belong in PR because their influence on and from prog is really minor, their music in a way can be considered progressive in it's own right, but that's often the case with leading bands of a new sub-culture/genre, while with Iron Maiden it's in a way the other way around, though limitedly progressive themselves their influence on and from prog rock is more extensive, songs like Rhyme of teh ancient mariner is not progressive, but is very much influenced by progresive rock music and structures. their later phase albums are leanin g towards prog-metal aswell.
well something like that. |
I agree strongly with 99% of your post Gerald.. right up to the point where you say their influence is minor... I hear Metallica all over DT... that is like saying Stavinsky wasn't an influence on Symphonic prog.
However... the rest.. spot on.. Metallica did do prog metal albums.. and this ... all these threads and everything would have NEVER happened if people got rid of the silly idea that this site is GROUP orientated.. not music orientated. Metallica should have been included in Prog Metal... to some though.. that is the same as saying the Metallica IS a prog group.. .whoa.... anyone care to define.. just WHAT a 'prog group' is. oh yeah.. . groups that only did prog would be the logical answer. Then 86 3/4 of the database and banish it to Prog Related... or would the answer be that they are not KNOWN as a prog group. Try telling me that.... and I'll tell you this site with a VERY few exceptions.. then would 86 damn near every group AFTER 1979. Groups today trip over themselves not to be 'known' as prog.
What we judge here is music... Metallica were not prog related... but were over the course of 2 or 3 albums.. Prog Metal... and that team could have.. and maybe should have added them and 'this' never would this come about.
Iron Maiden is .. if we are to be correct.. far more Prog Related than Metallica. That is why they were added.. and have long been the only PM related addition. That explains my vote. However since the PMT did not take the group.. it comes down to Prog Related.. or nothing.. and this IS an important group in Prog Metal.. and aren't we here to be the 'Ultimate Prog Resource' Metallica did do prog albums.. so while Prog Related is not the best choice... hence the stupidity of comparing them to Iron Maiden which was a sound addition..... they should still be added.
my two cents.. and final two cents.. you all are yapping at each other.. and don't think many of you are really listening to each other at this point.
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Indeed Micky, I and hopefully many others understand your point.
Cert and I obviously both agree that Metallica are not just a band with strong prog elements, but indeed were the real deal prog metal with Ride The Lightning, Master of Puppets and ...And Justice For All.
The problem has been this really: add the band to prog metal, and that will possibly 'lower the bar' and people will begin suggesting bands like Megadeth and Testament for prog related.
Cert and I fully realize those two aforementioned bands have no merit in being included into PA, because we are obviously somewhat educated in this field of heavy metal as such.
The other side of the problem is: add them to prog related, which wont have the problem of apparently "opening the doors too wide", but it seems the band is deemed too progresive (well on the merits of their proggresive metal material anyway) to be able to fit into prog related.
I know MikeEnRegalia obviously doesn't, but I stand with Cert on Metallica's prog metal position....... and if you were to ask all three of us about whether the flood gates open up for the other thrash bands inclusion, we will promptly answer with a no.
Voivod, Watchtower and Mekong Delta (three of the bigger name prog thrash metal bands) are here under Tech Extreme prog metal because they have a very clear and astute progressive thrash nature.
Metallica has a clear prog metal nature (although obviously pre dated those bands and lack the Tech nature apparent in the aforementioned three.
And again, as I've said before to calm the seemingly irrational fears, Megadeth, Anthrax, Exodus and the rest, have absolutely no real merit for inclusion.
I speak purely for Metallica here and as another avid and well educated on-the-matter man, Cert does too.
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:35
zafreth wrote:
My interpretation??? sorry dude i have no made and interpretation at all , is a question hahaha. |
Yes, you have made an interpretation: in order to even formulate a question about any statement it is necessary first to interpret the meaning of that statement.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:38
WinterLight wrote:
zafreth wrote:
My interpretation??? sorry dude i have no made and interpretation at all , is a question hahaha. |
Yes, you have made an interpretation: in order to even formulate a question about any statement it is necessary first to interpret the meaning of that statement.
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No comments in this one  you are the next Heiddegger or Gadamer of Hermeneutic Prog rock and all of his variants!!!!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:42
WinterLight wrote:
Metallica or asteroid? Your hyperbole would be laughable if it weren't so predominant.
Maybe laughable, but I can collaborate to keep Prog Archives and Progressive Rock alive, so I put mny efforts there.
Worst things can happen, but are out of my control.
Yes, Genesis (Early), King Crimnson, Kansas, PFM, Anglagard, Par Lindh Project, Focuds, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, After Crying, Disclipline, Pain of Salvation, Porcupine Tree, Rick Wakeman, Steve Hackett, Frank Zappa, Factor Burzaco, Anton Roolaart, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc Ponty, ;Mike Oldfield, etc...Do they say anything to you?
Not sure what the question means: they don't "say anything" to me.
This answer my question, if you ask about Prog bands and I give you a list of real icons and they say nothing to you.
Sorry for crashing your exclusive club.
It's not a club, it's a place to enjoy and to help with work.
This proves that many people haven't joined PROG ARCHIVES....THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE because of Prog.
http://www.progarchives.com/">
Is that supposed to be sarcasm? Try again, please.
Again, if you don't get it...the problem is not mine.
Sure, we can question their decisions, and they can choose to ignore our questions. I agree that, ultimately, the decision lies with them. This doesn't mean that their decision isn't poorly made.
Poorly according to you and the minority?
Legitimacy is earned through reason not wealth.
I talked about work reason, effort and also wealth, if you choose to limit to wealth, look to another side, I have invested no money in this site and all I do is for free.
There's popular music and serious music (i.e., classical music). It may not appeal to your elitism, but it's true enough. Prog is just clever pop music.
Says you????? Popular is not Pop, maybe you should check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure_%28popular_music%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure_(popular_music)
Or to make it easier:
Introduction
The definition of pop music is purposefully flexible as the music that is identified as pop is constantly changing. At any particular point in time it may be easiest to identify pop music as that which is successful on the pop music charts. For the past 50 years the most successful musical styles on the pop charts have continually changed and evolved. However, there are some consistent patterns in what is identified as pop music.
Pop Vs. Popular Music
It is tempting to confuse pop music with popular music. The New Grove Dictionary Of Music and Musicians, the musicologist's ultimate reference resource, identifies popular music as the music since industrialization in the 1800's that is most in line with the tastes and interests of the urban middle class. This would include an extremely wide range of music from vaudeville and minstrel shows to heavy metal. Pop music, on the other hand, has primarily come into usage to describe music that evolved out of the rock 'n roll revolution of the mid-1950's and continues in a definable path to today.
Music Accessible To the Widest Audience
Since the mid-1950's pop music has usually been identified as the music and the musical styles that are accessible to the widest audience. This means the music that sells the most copies, draws the largest concert audiences, and is played most often on the radio. After Bill Haley's "Rock Around the Clock" hit #1 on music charts in 1955 the most popular music became the records influenced by rock 'n roll instead of the songs and light standards that had dominated TV's Your Hit Parade weekly countdown show. Since 1955 the music that appeals to the widest audience, or pop music, has been dominated by sounds that are still rooted in basic elements of rock 'n roll.
Pop Music and Song Structure
One of the most consistent elements of pop music since the 1950's is the pop song. Pop music is not usually written, performed and recorded as a symphony, suite, or concerto. The basic form for pop music is the song and usually a song consisting of verse and repeated chorus. Most often the songs are between 2 1/2 minutes and 5 1/2 minutes in length. There have been notable exceptions. The Beatles' "Hey Jude" was an epic 7 minutes in length. However, in many cases, if the song is abnormally long, an edited version is released for radio airplay such as in the case of Don McLean's "American Pie." It was edited down from its original 8 1/2 minutes length to just over 4 minutes for radio airplay. On the other end of the spectrum, in the late 1950's and early 1960's some hit songs clocked in under 2 minutes in length.
The Pop Music Melting Pot
Like other art forms that aim to attract a mass audience (movies, television, Broadway shows), pop music has been and continues to be a melting pot that borrows and assimilates elements and ideas from a wide range of musical styles. Rock, r&b, country, disco, punk, and hip hop are all specific genres of music that have influenced and been incorporated into pop music in various ways over the past 5 decades. Most recently, Latin music seems to be impacting pop music more significantly than at any point in the past.
Pure Pop and Power Pop
Although pop music continues to be a melting pot of styles, there is a genre of pop music that claims to be pop music in its purest form. This music, usually called pure pop or power pop, typically consists of relatively brief (not over 3 1/2 minutes) songs played on the standard electric guitar, bass and drums with vocals that have a very strong catchy chorus, or hook. Art is not a concern. Audience pleasure in listening to the song is the primary goal.
Among the top pure pop or power pop performers of the past are the Raspberries, Cheap Trick and the Knack. Most recently, the http://top40.about.com/od/artistsac/p/theclickfive.htm - Click Five have identified their style as "new school power pop."
http://top40.about.com/od/popmusic101/a/popmusic.htm - http://top40.about.com/od/popmusic101/a/popmusic.htm
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If you still think Prog is POP, then I can't say more.
You don't have to believe me at all--I make no claims to infallibility.
I already decided not to believe you.
That an artist chooses not to define his work in some particular vocabulary does not preclude a reasonable characterization in that context. Again, this is elementary--elementary to the point that I feel somewhat silly in actually articulating it.
I think you're lost again, Robert Fripp decides not to categorize his work...Metallica has decided to categorize they're work....AS METAL.
The reformation has started long before you joined, a reformation created with work and love for the site and Prog. Evidently, you don't understand my allusion to your pontification.
Not pontificatioin, I'm talking with the support of the majority, you are only voicing your opinion and recommending us to close our eyes and let thisngs happen, because worst things can occur.
Iván
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:52
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Ivan, Obviously I can't answer for Mike, but since it appears that he has logged off, his position with Avantasia wasn't so much that he disagreed with their inclusion in prog related as much as he disagreed with their inclusion in prog related when a band such as Metallica had not been included in prog related. Until Avantasia was approved Iron Maiden had been the only metal band included in Prog Related. Pursuant to the definition that you wrote (so no need for me to repeat it) prog related is meant to include larger well-known bands that although not prog were either influenced by or influenced prog bands. Avantasia is neither a large well-known band nor influential on other prog bands. They were however influenced by prog bands (probably including Metallica). Metallica is a large well-known band that arguably is not prog (I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree) that arguably influenced the entirety of prog metal. There is not denying that Dream Theater was influenced by Metallica. Whether Dream Theater was influenced by "progressive elements" of Metallica is open to debate and I think each individual's answer to this question depends on whether or not each individual believes that Metallica had progressive elements or not.
Does Metallica need the love and free advertising that is being provided by these arguments and debates? No. Should we be concentrating our attentions on more 100% prog bands? Yes. But this also gets done in many other threads. Unfortunately, for the lesser known bands this only gets done by the small minority that continue to go out of their way to try and bring recognition to these lesser known bands. There is definitely room for improvement here on the site. mailto:M@x - M@x tried that a bit with the artist of the month, but unfortunately Torman Maxt was a disaster, Contrarian had a bit of better results, and then the well seems to have ran dry of bands willing to pay the advertising fee for the month. I, for one, would certainly like to see more bands included in this, whether it is band of the month or album of the week, etc...
I know that our positions on Metallica is different, because I feel that it is a shame that they are not included in prog related (at this point it would be silly to have a separate prog metal related or proto-prog metal category). I think that this position will mostly be along the same lines of people who believe that prog metal is prog or not. If you don't feel that prog metal is prog than obviously you won't think that Metallica is suitable for prog related.
On the other hand, I fully feel your frustration for the seeming lack of support for what you term 100% prog bands.
Cheers,
Scott
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 17:55
as to the band recreating their music live, they did it as well or better than any metal band I've seen, 'cept maybe Priest.. Metallica were one of the hardest working bands in the world at one point, roadmasters, inexhaustible ..no, mostly they kicked ass in concert
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:02
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This answer my questiion, if you ask about Prog bands and I give you a list ofvreal icons and they say nothing to you.
No, they really don't say anything to me. I'm not sure how giving meaning to your statement.
Poorly accordingto you and the minority?
First, what evidence do you have to support that mine is a minority opinion? The poll is irrelevant not only to the site but to the population in general. But, suppose that it is a minority opinion. Does that make the opinion illegitimate? I should think not.
I talked about work reason, effort and also wealth, if you choose to limit to wealth, look to another side, I have invested no money in this sitre and all I do is for free.
What I mean is that ownership of the means of communication is not in itself a legitimizing factor. Now, of course, the owners can do what they like with their property. But this does not imply that their choices are well-made.
If you still think Prog is POP, then I can't say more.
I can cherrypick webpages, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music . But citations are poor substitutes for ratiocination.
I already decided not to believe you.
Evidently, enthusiasm for progressive music doesn't correlate with progressive tendencies in general.
That an artist chooses not to define his work in some particular vocabulary does not preclude a reasonable characterization in that context. Again, this is elementary--elementary to the point that I feel somewhat silly in actually articulating it.
I think you're lost again, Robert Fripp decides not to categorize his work...Metallica has decided to categorize they're work....AS METAL.
Your point was clear to even the meanest intelligence. I countered your point with a general principle, which as it happens, invalidates your argument. No road map necessary for me.
Not pontificatioin, I'm talking with the support of the majority, you are only voicing your opinion and recommending us to close our eyes and let thisngs happen, because worst things can occur.
Well, you (and the alleged majority) have done nothing but opine, too. In fact, my focus hasn't been on matters of opinion (not too much, anyway) but primarily on bringing to light certain fallacies. To be honest, I wish that you'd open rather than "close" your eyes. Some simple intellectual honesty would be nice.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:07
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I refuse to see a Prog site that I joined EXCLUSIVELY FOR PROG, slowly turn into a general music site.
How many prog related bands are there ... 100, 150? Of more than 3000 prog bands. Come on ...
Then Mike, answer me one question...Why did you asked your tag to be removed when Avantasia was added asa Prog Related band?
The "Come on" argument only works for you?
I haven't threatened anybody, if Metallica is added I will close my mouth and accept it.
It rubbed me the wrong way. Don't tell me you didn't have any knee-jerk reactions ... or frustrating situations. I find it odd though that you go to such lengths to explain how horrible it would be for you if Metallica get added, that this place is becoming allmusic.com ... yet if the admins decided to add them you would quietly accept it?
I refuse to see people not caring for REAL 100% Prog bands announced and making 5 or 10 pages of barely related bands.
How do you know that people are not caring? Just because the Metallica discussion has been revived by recent discussions about Miles Davis and Sting? These discussions have come and gone ... none of them has really lasted longer than a week or two.
Because as an individual and as a team I have addec pure Prog bands in the last months and nobody gives a damn, sometimes two replies from the usual suspects (Logan, Atavachron, Ricochet, Micky, and a couple more).
But a thread about Boston is opemned and we have 100 posts.
In my humble opinion this is simply because most of the pure prog bands which get added these days are very obscure. The music is often very hard to find ... I listen to new prog releases all the time, but I've never heard of the artists you mentioned above - and you won't be able to make me feel bad about it. I do what I can - but unfortunately my time is limited.
Sorry, but I don't see what's that interesting about that tour. Sure, seeing King Crimson on stage is great, but talking about these shows ... what's the novelty?
Is the goodbye tour of the most rep´resentative band of all Prog and the one that created the bases for Symphonic, which is by far the most popular sub-genre....This means a lot. Doesn't have to mean that much to me. I really like King Crimson, but seeing them live is not a priority for me. If they came to my home town or somewhere I could travel to in a sensible manner, I would probably go see them.
I refuse to see an active musician as Alex Carpani, who recruited with great effort a living legend as Aldo Tagliapetra, offering his collaboration to Prog Archives and nobody caring about because Toto, Boistoin and Metallica are more important.
When did that happen? Tell me more about it ...
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| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=63 - Bands Being Added By Spec Collaborators |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49792&KW=Alex+Carpani - Alex Carpani Band
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318 - Ivan_Melgar_M , June 28 2008 at 17:59 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318 - Ivan_Melgar_M
June 28 2008 at 20:29 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=49792&KW=Alex+Carpani"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45909&KW=Alex+Carpani - Carpani, Alex
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2304 - andrea , February 03 2008 at 06:05 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7695 - bhikkhu
April 15 2008 at 17:38 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=45909&KW=Alex+Carpani"> |
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But that's not alone:
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48947&KW=Factor+Burzaco - Factor Burzaco - Avant
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318 - Ivan_Melgar_M , May 26 2008 at 22:17
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48947&KW=Factor+Burzaco&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48947&KW=Factor+Burzaco&PN=2 - 2 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=6663 - listennow801
June 06 2008 at 21:41 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=48947&KW=Factor+Burzaco"> |
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Shadow Circus: a and willing to collaborate with Prog Archives, with a member asking for attention, and still:
[quoite]
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| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45664&KW=Shadow+Circus - Show Some Love for Shadow Circus!
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , January 25 2008 at 13:21 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5134 - Atkingani
January 25 2008 at 13:39 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=45664&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=19 - Prog News, Press Releases |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42658&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus Begins Work on New Album
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , October 16 2007 at 12:05 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1995 - el böthy
October 28 2007 at 00:13 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=42658&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41825&KW=Shadow+Circus - A note from TonyKaye to Shadow Circus
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , September 18 2007 at 18:11 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
September 18 2007 at 18:11 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=41825&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Prog Gigs, Tours and Festivals |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41237&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus Play New York, October 13 By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , August 28 2007 at 11:57 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
August 31 2007 at 12:35 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=41237&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=19 - Prog News, Press Releases |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40397&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus New Photos and Live Footage Posted
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , July 30 2007 at 10:55 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=14717 - Yorkie X
August 01 2007 at 04:30 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=40397&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39417&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus CD Released - Audio Samples
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , June 27 2007 at 10:29 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
June 29 2007 at 12:01 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=39417&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38525&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus T-Shirts Now Available!
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , May 31 2007 at 12:27 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
May 31 2007 at 12:27 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=38525&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37174&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus signed to ProgRock Records
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2223 - BigBoss , April 23 2007 at 13:01 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2223 - BigBoss
April 23 2007 at 13:01 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=37174&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Prog Gigs, Tours and Festivals |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35891&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus member live w/Jon Anderson
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , March 23 2007 at 14:13 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7695 - bhikkhu
April 19 2007 at 15:59 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=35891&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33887&KW=Shadow+Circus - Shadow Circus new band
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11935 - moogtaurusbass , January 31 2007 at 06:30 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
February 10 2007 at 15:50 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=33887&KW=Shadow+Circus"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28306&KW=Shadow+Circus - New Prog: Shadow Circus
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet , September 07 2006 at 16:39 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10019 - jplanet
September 07 2006 at 16:39 |
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But on the other hand:
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| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49141&KW=Boston - boston dvd
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=1298 - rick gryphon , June 03 2008 at 09:06 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=19934 - Josh_M
June 03 2008 at 14:51 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=49141&KW=Boston"> |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45395&KW=Boston - Boston's Tom Scholz is angry...
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8274 - Angelo , January 16 2008 at 16:23 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123 - Easy Livin
January 16 2008 at 17:20 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=45395&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston - Boston???
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12504 - ghost_of_morphy , November 11 2007 at 13:50
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=BostonPN=8 - 8 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston&PN=9 - 9 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123 - Easy Livin
November 14 2007 at 03:37 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42436&KW=Boston - The Fall Progtacular - 10/24, Boston, MA
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3200 - Empathy , October 09 2007 at 16:26 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3200 - Empathy
October 09 2007 at 16:26 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=42436&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston - Boston are they prog related ?
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=12347 - lighthouse , March 13 2007 at 21:39
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston&PN=8 - 4 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3717 - Ghost Rider
March 19 2007 at 11:33 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=35474&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35315&KW=Boston - Brad Delp of Boston Found Dead By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8024 - WaywardSon , March 09 2007 at 21:34 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7051 - E-Dub
March 16 2007 at 22:33 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=35315&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=4 - General discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston - Boston Police are idiots
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9032 - OpethGuitarist , February 01 2007 at 11:44
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston&PN=3 - 3 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22 - Jim Garten
February 08 2007 at 07:22 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=33913&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30713&KW=Boston - Boston Album Poll By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8024 - WaywardSon , November 04 2006 at 11:03 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7695 - bhikkhu
November 06 2006 at 09:35 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=30713&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=19 - Prog News, Press Releases |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29156&KW=Boston - Porcupine Tree Boston "In-Store" Appearence
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2153 - Tony R , September 29 2006 at 14:51 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10425 - APleasantSymmet
October 02 2006 at 01:48 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=29156&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=48 - Get The Word Out |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26747&KW=Boston - Rockstar TOUR FREE Concert in Boston
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9339 - shaheenr , July 31 2006 at 17:03 |
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By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=9339 - shaheenr
July 31 2006 at 17:03 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=26747&KW=Boston"> |
| http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists |
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24834&KW=Boston - New band: Boston
By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8892 - Hook , June 16 2006 at 10:39 | |
On thread has 170, others 56 and 64, AND THEY ARE NOT EVEN HERE
That's because many people know Boston. Personally, I don't give a flying s..t about them ... never cared, never will. But with this attitude of yours you won't be able to attract people to your additions either. Unfortunately you can't force these things. I think my website is a good thing and would be useful for many people - but I can't make them go there and create accounts. The more you try to convince people, the less will actually take your advice.
but first: Have you listened to Panzerballet yet? No? Shame on you! Let's be realistic ... none of us has the time to listen to or check out all the lesser known artists that exist on this planet.
For your uinformation, I pay a lot of attention to Fusion bands and panzerballet was precisely one of thse releases that inmediately listened, didn't liked it, but I recognize they are good.
Cool ... I tip my hat to you. But surely there is a prog band which was recently added/discussed and which you weren't able to check out.
I refuse to see the opinion of the administrators and teams to be questioned by people who don't agree with their favorite band being rejected,. not because of quality, but because IT'S NOT PROG.
This has nothing to do with Metallica being my favorite band. They're not even my favorite band, although I value them highly. Also, I agree that they're not prog. Neither are Queen, Led Zeppelin - or Iron Maiden. Prog Related - which you wrote the description for if I remember correctly - is, among other things, for highly influential bands which came close to playing prog, but didn't quite "cross the line". No matter how this poll turns out, it's obvious that many people think that they're one of a handful of important metal bands which would make sense to be added as prog related.
If they are important for Metal, keep them in metal, you already have Prog Metal, Extreme Tech Metal and another third sub-genre, now you want to add metal bands also to Prog Related?
No - in fact I stalled the addition of metal bands to prog related. It was the admin team, micky and Raffaella (as I recall it) who added Iron Maiden. For over a year this has been the only metal band in prog related, only this week the admin team decided to add Avantasia, without my knowledge. So now that the admin team has decided to expand prog related to metal bands, the addition of Metallica becomes more important to me.
I refuse to see people accepting the opinion of the majorities, unless the majority agrees with them}
I can respect these opinions, but I don't have to "adopt" them ... of course I would be glad if this poll turned out in favor of the addition, but if it doesn't it won't change my opinion. In any case, I will accept the admins' decision.
There we agree
I refuse to see a band like Metallica, who doesn't want to be considered Prog, being pushed into our thrats, despite it's obvious most of the people don't believe they belong here.
Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson doesn't like being called "prog" either ... obviously that doesn't stop us. Besides, let's emphasize again that I'm not calling Metallica "prog".
Steve Wilson can talk whatever he wants, but he and his band present themselves in exclusively PROGRESSIVE ROCK FESTIVALS. their tickets are sold as PROGRESSIVE ROCK CONCERTS, Metallica is sold as Metal.
I don't care about labels that much. This might sound odd, considering my website and the genre teams and all. I know that Metallica deserve to be added as prog related - and FYI: Iron Maiden tickets aren't sold as Prog Metal either.
If this was a General Rock site, I would accept Metallica, The Bee Gees...Even N'Sync, but no, this is a Progressive Rock site, that some of us have formed since it started, placed a lot of effort on it, expend time that could had been spent with our family or working to gain ore money, but we doid it for PROG, not for Metal, Jazz, AOR, Alternative, Sibnger Songwritter, etc.
Let me repeat again that this website has accepted a very small number of prog related / proto prog bands. Nobody's "opening the flood gates". If I hadn't brought up Metallica, won't you instead complain about Avantasia, whose addition I had nothing to do with? Please, I'm not your enemy. I don't think that we need many more prog related bands in the archives, I just think that Metallica are one of the few that are vital.
By the contrary Mike, I consuider you a friend for whom Ihjave respect, but why the problem about Avastacia (Band with whom I disagreed if you chhexck the thread, but once added I shut my mouth in respect for those who decided) if it's only one band?
I respect you too, that goes without saying.
Why did you made an issue about Iron Maiden? It's only one band also...But 1 + 1 + 1 is three and keeps growing,
I have a problem with this:
Iron Maiden: yes
Avantasia: yes
Metallica: no
As someone who knows all three bands very well, I simply think that it makes no sense. It's sending the wrong signal.
now we have albums released in 1959 as the most popular PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUM OF THE WEEK Well, you know my opinion about certain things here ... genre per album would prevent this, also I would have added Miles Davis as prog related and not allow prog related albums in that spot. But - it's just my opinion.
And to make it worst:
- Not Prog
- Not Rock
- Not Fusion
People is claiming for 100% JAZZ artists of the 40's
When is this stopping?
Remember how I got ridiculed in the Miles Davis thread when I said that his addition would lead to people demanding Coltrane or Coleman? But 40s ... I think that request for Glenn Miller was not entirely serious.
BTW: I believe it's more trivial and out of lace to create a 10 opages thread about Boston, NMetallica or Toto, than place our emphasis in REAL PROG BANDS.
This place is called PROG ARCHIVES....Not Allmusic.
That's why we're not adding thousands of non prog bands.
Then accept Avastacia, The Doors, Iron Maiden, etc with the same effort you place on Metallica..
No. I have my own will ... I can live with decisions, but I don't have to pretend in the forum that it was my idea, or that it was a good decision. I would never undermine the admin team or their decisions, but IMO them arriving at a decision doesn't always imply that all discussions about the subject have to stop.
Iván |
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Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:07
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
burritounit wrote:
I don't think I own other albums form this particular time and I know
the difference between those bands just like you said, it's pretty
clear. Yet I still stand by my opinion and I clearly understand their
influence on progressive metal and I just can't see their relation to
prog other than being this one and if it's that one I'll accept it.
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no problem at all. I'll give you a few examples, track by track :
Battery: Notice the multi layered, majestic intro. In the song itself, notice how the structure is based on seemingly erratic numbers of bars. Normally songs - even in thrash metal - are structured on even numbers of bars, typically 4 or 8 of them form a part which is then repeated. In Battery you have groups of 3 bars mixed with groups of 2 (chorus) , sometimes one odd bar is thrown in.
Master of Puppets: It's an epic. Ok, it's only 8:35 long, but it consists of several parts which are very cleverly connected. First you have the intro. In the verse you have the famous 4/4+5/8 riff. The chorus is oddly disrupted by the "Master, Master" vocals, the guitars play really complex riffs, reminding of AJFA. Then the interlude follows, with very gentle melodies and a Hetfield solo which injects some Hard Rock/Blues into the music, which rarely ever happens in Metallica (or Thrash in general). It's how they turn these very different elements into a homogeneous whole. The interlude seamlessly turns into a heavier bridge with a modified version of the chorus vocals. Then follows a short solo, then follows a really cool riff, followed by the intro riff. Only now, after all those transitions, the second verse starts, followed by the chorus again. After a few repetitions we get a short outro.
The Thing That Should Not Be: The atonality of the main riff (and of the short solo) simply amazes me. Granted, this is an attribute of Thrash, not Prog. But you won't find any similar track on other Thrash releases of the time, especially considering how the bass is involved in those riffs. Plus, if you are looking for novelties: They used drop D tuning, which few bands used back then. A minor thing, but still.
Welcome Home (Sanitarium): Intro and verse are alternating between 4/4 and 6/4. Also, how they manage to seamlessly switch between different tempos/moods is unmatched compared to their peer. Megadeth come close in their best moments, but don't quite reach the level of perfection/sophistication. BTW: Starting at 4:50 we get some very cool guitar harmonies again, reminding of the Battery intro.
Disposable Heroes, Leper Messiah: Not much to say apart from some odd/unusual time signatures and tempo changes. Pretty cool songs though. Plus Disposable Heroes is continuing the concept.
Orion: No comment necessary. Cliff 'em All!
Damage, Inc.: Pretty cool intro - again nice guitar harmonies, this time with the use of the volume knob.
Summary: If you're looking for the progressive moments, focus on the Battery intro & structure, the title track, The Thing that Should Not Be, Welcome Home (Sanitarium) and of course, the fantastic Orion.
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Umm...I understand your point. But again it's not showing anything. Just by using these methods you mentioned in their music doesn't make you prog, any genre can use odd time signatures and it still won't make it prog. It's like today's tech metal bands, they have technicality, incredible players and whatnot, but again, I don't think that makes it prog. And I bet that most of these bands don't even know what prog is. They even sound nothinglike the original progressive rock bands and I don't think that bands should keep doing the same thing over and over again. Metallica was innovetive indeed but just within the boundaries of its own genre, and as I've said before their only relation to prog is their inlfuence on many prog metal bands to come ahead of them.
By the way I do like Master Of Puppets and have nothing against them(and Orion is fantastic ). And neither will I have it if they get added. Maybe we should add them, but because of their influence on the prog metal bands.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:10
rushfan4 wrote:
Ivan, Obviously I can't answer for Mike, but since it appears that he has logged off, his position with Avantasia wasn't so much that he disagreed with their inclusion in prog related as much as he disagreed with their inclusion in prog related when a band such as Metallica had not been included in prog related. Until Avantasia was approved Iron Maiden had been the only metal band included in Prog Related. Pursuant to the definition that you wrote (so no need for me to repeat it) prog related is meant to include larger well-known bands that although not prog were either influenced by or influenced prog bands. Avantasia is neither a large well-known band nor influential on other prog bands. They were however influenced by prog bands (probably including Metallica). Metallica is a large well-known band that arguably is not prog (I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree) that arguably influenced the entirety of prog metal. There is not denying that Dream Theater was influenced by Metallica. Whether Dream Theater was influenced by "progressive elements" of Metallica is open to debate and I think each individual's answer to this question depends on whether or not each individual believes that Metallica had progressive elements or not.
Youpointed the problem I see (At least one of them), Metallica has influenced many modern metal bands, as Louis Armstrong has influenced modern Fusion bands, but IMO it's not a Prog influence, so it's out of our competence.
Plus opening the doors is dangerous.
Does Metallica need the love and free advertising that is being provided by these arguments and debates? No. Should we be concentrating our attentions on more 100% prog bands? Yes. But this also gets done in many other threads. Unfortunately, for the lesser known bands this only gets done by the small minority that continue to go out of their way to try and bring recognition to these lesser known bands. There is definitely room for improvement here on the site. mailto:M@x - M@x tried that a bit with the artist of the month, but unfortunately Torman Maxt was a disaster, Contrarian had a bit of better results, and then the well seems to have ran dry of bands willing to pay the advertising fee for the month. I, for one, would certainly like to see more bands included in this, whether it is band of the month or album of the week, etc...
That's absurd, we fruightened te bands, I agree Thorman Maxt was a disaster, but people qualified Contrarian a pure Prog band as Cheesy Regressive Prog, we frightened people who were investing in Prog Archives, because some felt this Prog bands were bnot so good...But as a paradox they support bands that have little or no relation with Prog.
Now we have 1940's and 1950's albums as the most popular in Prog Archives...In the 40's noit even Rock existed, none of tose albums is remotely fusioin, we¿re loosing our identity.
I know that our positions on Metallica is different, because I feel that it is a shame that they are not included in prog related (at this point it would be silly to have a separate prog metal related or proto-prog metal category). I think that this position will mostly be along the same lines of people who believe that prog metal is prog or not. If you don't feel that prog metal is prog than obviously you won't think that Metallica is suitable for prog related.
Never said that Prog Metal is not Prog, I like some bands, won't lie saying that is my cup of tea, I never ghidden I dislike Dream Theater, but never denied their Prog qualities.
On the other hand, I fully feel your frustration for the seeming lack of support for what you term 100% prog bands.
My frustration is for the site, we are capable of being the first Prog site in the net and weare risking it for bands that don't belong anddon't want go be here, but we afford the luxury of scaring bands as Contrarian who are willing to invest in us.
Iván |
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Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:12
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
but IMO it's not a Prog influence, so it's out of our competence.
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I agree with that.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:14
^ you know ... it's odd. Sometimes the very same person can use the same point in favor of one band, but against another. I've often seen that, particularly with time signatures. Some people will point out the use of time signatures in classic prog music, but dismiss it as a superficial element in modern music. Even the holy cow of time signatures - The Rite of Spring - has its critics, who claim that Stravinsky only added the erratic signature changes to adapt the music to the ballet dancing.
Personally, I think that time signature changes, odd time signatures, polyrhythms etc. are a criterium for prog. Of course their use can be bland or uncalled for / unnecessary, but IMO that's more a matter of quality (good/bad) than style (prog/non-prog). Non-prog music uses standard time signatures, it's as simple as that ... some rare exceptions confirm the rule (Take Five comes to my mind ... but that's Jazz).
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:19
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My exposure to Miles Davis is nil, so any opinions I have there would strictly be prejudicial on preconceived notions (just to clarify by prejudicial I do not mean racially prejudicial), but I agree that it doesn't seem right that the album of the week is an album from the 40's or 50's that appears to be a blues album by its title. In a way though, is this any different then when a Genesis album from the early 70's pops up as the album of the week. Yes, at least it is definitely a prog album, but still it would seem that the album of the week would be for more modern prog albums (which it usually is depending on your opinion of Porcupine Tree or Meshuggah, etc).
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:21
Kind of Blue is actually a Jazz album ... for many it is even *the* ultimate Jazz recording of all time. I love it ... I might even buy the vinyl edition later this week.
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Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:24
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ you know ... it's odd. Sometimes the very same person can use the same point in favor of one band, but against another. I've often seen that, particularly with time signatures. Some people will point out the use of time signatures in classic prog music, but dismiss it as a superficial element in modern music. Even the holy cow of time signatures - The Rite of Spring - has its critics, who claim that Stravinsky only added the erratic signature changes to adapt the music to the ballet dancing.
Personally, I think that time signature changes, odd time signatures, polyrhythms etc. are a criterium for prog. Of course their use can be bland or uncalled for / unnecessary, but IMO that's more a matter of quality (good/bad) than style (prog/non-prog). Non-prog music uses standard time signatures, it's as simple as that ... some rare exceptions confirm the rule (Take Five comes to my mind ... but that's Jazz).
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I've seen it too. And honestly I wouldn't use the same argument for one particular band. I would apply the same reasoning to every band. And I do agree that they are the criteria of prog, but it's not the only one, if not many bands would be here just because they have that only characteristic of prog.
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"I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..."
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:30
^ of course - one criterium is not enough. Remember that I would never add Metallica as prog metal ... their music isn't fully fledged prog, except maybe for Orion, AJFA (the track) and a small number of others.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:30
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:
[
It rubbed me the wrong way. Don't tell me you didn't have any knee-jerk reactions ... or frustrating situations. I find it odd though that you go to such lengths to explain how horrible it would be for you if Metallica get added, that this place is becoming allmusic.com ... yet if the admins decided to add them you would quietly accept it?
I will focus my replies in constructive posts as your's.
I can live with that, it was a knee jerk reaction, I also had some like in the Discipline case in which I PM'd you to say you were right.
And believe me, if Metallica is added, I would say nothing more, as I shut up with Radiohead and even The Who.
In my humble opinion this is simply because most of the pure prog bands which get added these days are very obscure. The music is often very hard to find ... I listen to new prog releases all the time, but I've never heard of the artists you mentioned above - and you won't be able to make me feel bad about it. I do what I can - but unfortunately my time is limited.
Mike, the problem is wider, eacgh time a newbie comes here, we have to deal with the same sack of bands that have been rejected ten times, there should be a strike three rule.
People don't come here to learn or to talk about Prog, they come here to talk about their favorite bands, no matter they are not Prog.....But this is a prog site, we can be open minded, but this site is PROG ARCHIVES.
Doesn't have to mean that much to me. I really like King Crimson, but seeing them live is not a priority for me. If they came to my home town or somewhere I could travel to in a sensible manner, I would probably go see them.
Look at this paradox...I never hidden I don't like most King Crimson, but I know what they represent, and I believe it's an end of an era
IThat's because many people know Boston. Personally, I don't give a flying s..t about them ... never cared, never will. But with this attitude of yours you won't be able to attract people to your additions either. Unfortunately you can't force these things. I think my website is a good thing and would be useful for many people - but I can't make them go there and create accounts. The more you try to convince people, the less will actually take your advice.
That's why a strike three rule should exoist, rejected, one, two, even three times, but 10 or 15 times? This is something we muust avoid.
Cool ... I tip my hat to you. But surely there is a prog band which was recently added/discussed and which you weren't able to check out.
Of course, there are hundreds of new bands I haven't heard, but each time Erik, HT, Guigo, E-Dub or even myself have created threads to promote lesser known bands...nobody cares.
People complained.."
Why in hell you moved Gentle Giant and King Crimson from Symphonic...We have the right to be informed...We want to know, you dicator, tyrant"
You mustremember that Mike, I created a thread explaining every change in the main page....2 replies, Erik Neuteboom and HT (Two of the few persons I knew would be informed about thoise changes and agreed with them)....The rest, ignored it.
No - in fact I stalled the addition of metal bands to prog related. It was the admin team, micky and Raffaella (as I recall it) who added Iron Maiden. For over a year this has been the only metal band in prog related, only this week the admin team decided to add Avantasia, without my knowledge. So now that the admin team has decided to expand prog related to metal bands, the addition of Metallica becomes more important to me.
Lets wait and see what happens, until they are added I will talk, then if added I will keep my word and shut up.
I don't care about labels that much. This might sound odd, considering my website and the genre teams and all. I know that Metallica deserve to be added as prog related - and FYI: Iron Maiden tickets aren't sold as Prog Metal either.
That's a matter of opinions, I believe Iron Maiden deserves, to be in PR and you believe Metallica...We can agree to disagree.
I respect you too, that goes without saying.
Thanks
I have a problem with this:
Iron Maiden: yes
Avantasia: yes
Metallica: no
As someone who knows all three bands very well, I simply think that it makes no sense. It's sending the wrong signal.
Maybe the message is that enough is enough
Well, you know my opinion about certain things here ... genre per album would prevent this, also I would have added Miles Davis as prog related and not allow prog related albums in that spot. But - it's just my opinion.
You know I partially agree, I want to add genres to all Symphonic albums and eras and schools, but it's a monumental task and the urgent always blocks what is necessary.
I would had added Miles only from Bitches Brew and mention that his previous career is Jazz and not Fusion.
Remember how I got ridiculed in the Miles Davis thread when I said that his addition would lead to people demanding Coltrane or Coleman? But 40s ... I think that request for Glenn Miller was not entirely serious.
We were two if you remember.
No. I have my own will ... I can live with decisions, but I don't have to pretend in the forum that it was my idea, or that it was a good decision. I would never undermine the admin team or their decisions, but IMO them arriving at a decision doesn't always imply that all discussions about the subject have to stop.
Don't worry Mike I understand you, even when I disagree sometimes.
Iván |
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 18:31
^ I kind of figured that Kind of Blue probably was a jazz album since it was from Miles Davis, but with the word "blue" in there I wasn't sure if it was some sort of blues/jazz mix or something. Thank you for the clarification. I could very well be the target audience for his inclusion since I really know very little about him other than that Bitches Brew is an album that I should definitely hear.
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