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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 22 2008 at 23:17

Now the three members of the Symphonic Team have voted in this thread (Myself, E-Dub and Bhikkhu), and Jordan Oliver neither the non existing New Age band are accepted in Symphonic.

As Angelo said this is final.

Iván

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Posted: February 22 2008 at 23:18

E-Dub wrote:

The Rock wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Rock wrote:

And they should as they are probably the most progressive,or at least symphonic band I ave submit yet.

Well, being a Symphonic sugestion I gave my best attention to them, for what I got (a good part of the album), this is my opinion:

Iran: Absolutely Ambient Fusion
Dreams: Jazzy Ambient mostly IMHO, even though he plays parts of In the Hall of the Moubntain King from Peer Gynt, the sound is always cloiser to a soft easy listenuing fusion with a touch of classical of course.
Alpha Centaurus: Chopin's Polonaise is a good detail, the guy knows his keys, then he jumps to an Emerson like section but always wit that jazzy feeling, sounds loike ïano Improvisations from Works, but then he changes to a more ambient late New Age approach, close to Symphonic but not completely.
The Future: It's Prog, no doubt, but in his track I see no relation with Symphoinic, yes he uses piano and obviously has Classical training, but that's not all you need to make Symph, this is a Proggy approach too AOR IMHO
Neptuned: The closer he gets to Symphonic, very melodic even when a bit light, liked this track

Just as a reference I did a search in all known Prog sites and he's not mentioned in anyone, something odd for an album released his album 26 years ago, but had access to a release done Live in Venezuela.

Vivo en Venezuela is more clearly Latin Jazz with very good piano, but not Symphonic either.

Neptuned is credited to Jordan Oliver, The New Age band is a creation only for this concept album based in the history of New Age, not a stable band.

The short links in the page don't give a clear idea of his music, if you don't have a legal download site, please go to CD Baby, their samples are more descriptive, I would dare to say that Prog Related if too much would be my choice.

Iván

I would dare to say that you are way too picky and that if this is not sympho prog then what is???

Prog related?

Come on!!!

That's the thing that I dislike the most about some prog fans.they tend to have their noses up in the air and decided what is prog and hat isn't.

To call this light jazz and ambient new age is really exagerated IMHO.Prog aproach to AOR?

Pul-eeeze!

The reason why they're not mentioned in many prog sites is because it is so damn well obscure,just like most bands I suggested.

Now when I read reviews of A hard Days Night,Maiden's Killers and Queen's Flash Gordon on a PROG site and I compare these to Jordan Oliver's Neptune,I think I may be biased but Neptuned is far more than just prog related.SYMPHO PROG.

America's answer to YAWN-ni, in my opinion. That aside, he doesn't belong in symph.

Ivan's a team member of mine and you're going to have to do a better job with your rebuttals because he will shred you. He's tenacious at researching and will back it up with pinpoint accuracy. To assume that he'll not look at it from different angles to see if an artist will fit is a premature judgment on your part. Ivan just doesn't operate like that.

Prog-related gets my vote.

E

He adn't adressed my point about the album beign advertised in prog rock magazines in Italy and Japan.

But I can handle myself too,w/o any fear of beign ''shred''.

Like I said,the album I am suggeting is Neptuned by the band that wa soriginally known as The New Age.That's how the album came out in 1982 and should still be considerd.All the rest of Oliver's discography shouldn't prevent this prog album from beign include in PA.

What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"

The Rock

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Posted: February 22 2008 at 23:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Now the three members of the Symphonic Team have voted in this thread (Myself, E-Dub and Bhikkhu), and Jordan Oliver neither the non existing New Age band are accepted in Symphonic.

As Angelo said this is final.

Iván

I accept this decision but still consider Neptuned to be far more symphonic and progressiver than,let's say,Tormato or Big Generator.

And as for the non-existing band,actually the band was existing in the early 80's,and it,s only upon the re-issue that Oliver decided to included in it's own discography.

Camel became a non-existing band in the mid 80's when Latimer had to respect some contracts,yet The Single Factor and Stationary Traveller are still considered Camel albums.

What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"

bhikkhu

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Posted: February 22 2008 at 23:26

The Rock wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

Regardless of what any other site says, or what our decision may be, I resent the attitude that we are elitist, or don't look at obscure acts. I am a huge champion of the obscure, and have added quite a few to Symph. I am also now championing another rare one for Neo, and will probably have more in the future. We work as a team, and do thorough research. All submissions are taken seriously. That being said, I am usually the more inclusive one of the bunch. I can see some symphonic components here, and Jordan Oliver may be a good candidate for PA. However, from what I have heard it's not an obvious choice. Since my teammates have already said no, There is really no point in further consideration for Symphonic.

Sorry for the elitists accusations,but I still beleive that there are many of those polluting the prog world presently.They hae this idea that THEY know what is and what is not this and that,and that THEY decide what is or isn't prog.

As long as I will plug on to PA and read reviews of A hard Day's night and Killers by Iron Maiden,I will always find it paradoxal all this reticence and hostility towards an album that is 100% proggier than those-and I could mention many many other bands and albums that are far less prog that Neptued by The New Age.

Forget the Jordan Oliver moniker and at least consider the act as The New Age as it was originally released in 1982.

I have my own issues with seeing the same well known things getting discussed to death, but that has nothing to do with this particular case. And the only hostility I see is coming from you.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 01:20

bhikkhu wrote:

The Rock wrote:

Forget the Jordan Oliver moniker and at least consider the act as The New Age as it was originally released in 1982.

I have my own issues with seeing the same well known things getting discussed to death, but that has nothing to do with this particular case. And the only hostility I see is coming from you.

I'm not the one beign hostile towards any inclusions here....

What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 01:30

OK, the person who told him to submit Oliver to another team was me... So, unfortunately, it is not a case of being a man LOL

! Obviously, I hope it is clear that my advice wasn't based on any desire to put Ivan or his team down. Having been here for a long time, I know the inner workings of several teams, and I knew what was coming - that is, an argument, with unpleasant words thrown around, and the Admins being forced to take action.

That said, it has happened in other teams too that a suggestion from some member was rejected without appeal, and the person who made the suggestion took offense to that. This is why I took the liberty of contacting Alain myself and telling him to try with another team. Seen as there are people who believe that this artist should be included in our DB, I don't see why he shouldn't get a second or third chance.

Sorry for not having 'been a man' earlier... I go to bed very early in the evening, since these past few days I haven't felt my best. I just want it to be clear that there was NO malicious intent whatsoever, on the contrary.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 01:52

Ghost Rider wrote:

OK, the person who told him to submit Oliver to another team was me... So, unfortunately, it is not a case of being a man LOL

The action was taken by an Adm becaue of the method that The Rock, used to put one member against another one, and why he qualified my opinions of BS.

That said, it has happened in other teams too that a suggestion from some member was rejected without appeal, and the person who made the suggestion took offense to that. This is why I took the liberty of contacting Alain myself and telling him to try with another team. Seen as there are people who believe that this artist should be included in our DB, I don't see why he shouldn't get a second or third chance.

Raffaella, each team has it's own way of acting, we have voted and don't believe Jordan Oliver is a Symphonic artist and we won't change our mind.

Sorry for not having 'been a man' earlier... I go to bed very early in the evening, since these past few days I haven't felt my best. I just want it to be clear that there was NO malicious intent whatsoever, on the contrary.

As I said in my post I doubt you said:

The Rock wrote:

A nd I have also been told by PM by some well respected members of this board that you do indeed have your nose up in the air and that you have this snotty and stubborn attitude towards those who don't share your opinion and views.I can only confirm their views so far.

Or:

The Rock wrote:

I 've been told by another respected member of this board to submit Neptuned to other more open minded operators of this board,wich I will do.

My first reply was not believing him:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Tell those respected members to say it in my face, I never talk about other members on their back, and I'm sure most of the Collaborators here neither.

...

Tell that member that the decision on Symphonic bands is made by the team I lead, and we decide everything by vote of the team, if we decide not to add them, nobody can force us to do it.

BTW; Tell that respected member to be a man and tell me the things in my face not send a messager...If he exists.

If you didn't said this things, blame The Rock for his words and accusations, not me.

If you did told him to pass over me (Please note that I'm saying if you told him) and recommended him to ask another person with an open mind to order us to accept Jordan Oliver (What I honestly doubt), please I respectfully beg you, avoid doing that, our team has a way of working as each team has their way, please respect it.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 23 2008 at 02:02

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 02:13

Ivan, you've known me for almost two years, so I hope you don't believe for a second that I would do anything in order to disrespect you or your work. I only suggested Alain he contact another team - as I would have done with anyone else. I PM'd him in order to avoid the discussion turning into an argument. Do you really think that, if I had anything to hide, I would have admitted so readily to having contacted him?

I repeat, I told him to contact the Xover or Eclectic team in order to get the artist accepted in one of those subs, not in Symphonic. I thought it was clear, but perhaps I've become unable to make myself understood.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 02:22

Ghost Rider wrote:

Ivan, you've known me for almost two years, so I hope you don't believe for a second that I would do anything in order to disrespect you or your work. I only suggested Alain he contact another team - as I would have done with anyone else. I PM'd him in order to avoid the discussion turning into an argument. Do you really think that, if I had anything to hide, I would have admitted so readily to having contacted him?

I repeat, I told him to contact the Xover or Eclectic team in order to get the artist accepted in one of those subs, not in Symphonic. I thought it was clear, but perhaps I've become unable to make myself understood.

I'm sure as I was before, no Collaborator would said those things, but for the text of The Rock's posts you can read he said a different thing, so my reaction was logical and my reply was calmed.

BTW: The Adm Team acted because I reported the post, even though I'm sure sooner or later they would had notoiced all this mess.

Iván

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 06:40

I have hidden a post in this thread for infringing forum rules in quoting from a Private Message:

Respect the word "Private" in Private Message. Do not publish in the forum a Private Message (PM) you have sent or received.

What?

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 06:49

I believe the issue of Jordan Oliver with respect to Symphonic is now concluded and further discussion along those lines is pointless.

If he or The New Age Neptuned album needs to be assessed by more than one of the other Genre teams then I suggest either the Band Submission or Site Monitor Team should take over the 'management' of this submission.

What?

The Rock

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 07:36

darqDean wrote:

I believe the issue of Jordan Oliver with respect to Symphonic is now concluded and further discussion along those lines is pointless.

It seems so god damned difficult to add a band to this site.Too many chiefs,too many references,too many ''specialists''.

This is worst than the government!

Can it be all more simple?Like you open a thread up and suggets this and that band,then collaborators and members get to do some research,analyze it, then submit it to either one of the categories either Sympho,Neo,Proto,space,fusion,related or whatever?

God!All I want is to add this lost album from the past, that I objectively consider progressive(and I'm not the only one),if not symphonic enough to some, at least consider it much proggier than a LOT of albums and bands on PA.

What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 09:44

If Symphonic gave you the word it's not Symphonic, why don't you specifically mention what the next genre should be? Let's leave aside how some people here already said it's good enough only for Prog Related, just...just...mention the next genre you wanna suggest this artist towards, so that Team can look into them.

Edited by Ricochet - February 23 2008 at 09:44

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 10:01

Ricochet wrote:

Ermm

Hmmmmm....let me see.

How about Crossover prog?

Or ecclectic prog?

I think both these categories would suit the Neptuned album particularly, and to some extent, the Jordan Oliver career,even if the rest of his discography has little to do with prog.(Just like Jose Cid,btw).

That's why I tried to enter the album as an album by The New Age and not as a Jordan Oliver release.Back in 1982 when it was originally released there was no such act as ''Jordan Oliver'',only ''The New Age''.The CD reissue came out much later as a Jordan Oliver release.Probably because it would sell better, as J.O is still releasing music under is own name while The New Age can be quite misleading,not to mention not as known as Oliver himself.

Anyway,Ecclectic or Crossover would fit the bill I guess,and I hope!

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 10:03

Okay, I'll take the music for a spin (I can find it on CDBaby, right?). It's what I can do, right now, since a check by the Eclectic Team has been requested.

I'll get back with news, then. Meanwhile, the Xover team can check it too.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 11:06

The Rock wrote:

darqDean wrote:

I believe the issue of Jordan Oliver with respect to Symphonic is now concluded and further discussion along those lines is pointless.

It seems so god damned difficult to add a band to this site.Too many chiefs,too many references,too many ''specialists''.

This is worst than the government!

We understand your frustrations Alain, and have been working over the past few weeks to redress this imbalance, the Site Monitoring team has been set up with this issue as one of their specific tasks. It may look like too many chiefs/teams/specialists from the surface but it is a positive step in creating a degree of supporting structure behind the band submission process where bands fall between two or more sub-genres.

The last thing we want is for a valid album/artist to slip through the gaps between genres and be lost; When people such as yourself, who take the time and trouble to submit bands, become disillusioned with the whole process then it is a clear indication that the current system (as you accurately detailed in your 2nd paragraph) is not as efficient as it should be and needs this additional effort to make it work.

The Crossover team will also be evaluating this artist.

What?

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 11:07

This is the way it's done, guys. Good to see you helping each other out.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 12:04

After listening again and again the album, MAYBE could fit in Crossover, but I don't want to tell that team how to do their job.

All the rest of Jordan Oliver's albums are Salsa or Latin Jazz, not Prog at all (heard more than samples from some of them)

What I want people to understand is that the fact that some non Prog bands have filtered in, doesn't justify the admission of another band...Plus it's fact that 90% of the few controvertial bands are in Prog Related or Proto Prog which are non Prog categories.

Each band should be judged by it's own merits, not because somebody feels they are proggier than The Who or The Beatles.

Lets remember that The Beatles are here because they are the most influential band ever, and even whan I didn't agree with their inclusion (Micky must remember how much i opposed to them), The Who are not only very influential, but also fathers of the modern Rock Opera (There was another Rock Opera before Tommy, almost sure it was "Then an Alley", but not even the term was coined until Tommy).

So if not PR maybe Crossover could be a place, being that I don't see how Jordan Oliver could be in the same sub-genre as King Crimson or VDGG in Eclectic, but that's Crossover Team choice

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 23 2008 at 12:07

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 14:12

It does generally work in this manner. When a band is submitted to me, I discuss it with the team. If we reject it, we usually have a recommendation of where it should go. Then that team is alerted. There is no reason to get angry about it. This way, we make sure it goes in the proper sub-genre. And just because we are specialists in one area, doesn't mean we don't know know about other sub-genres. We constantly discuss things with Victor, Dean, David, Hughes, Assaf, Jody, etc., because their opinions are valuable.

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Posted: February 23 2008 at 15:15

bhikkhu wrote:

It does generally work in this manner. When a band is submitted to me, I discuss it with the team. If we reject it, we usually have a recommendation of where it should go.

That's correct HT, as we posted in another thread, when we cleaned the suggested bands from the master list this was the result:

Jean Pierre Alarcen (France): Hard job to search, all the info about this guy is in French but somehow I managed with my rusty French and some info in English plus sanmples……Jean Pierre is a French guitar player who made his proggiest work with Sandrose, hios solo career is formed by three albums:

His eponymous album that is PURE JAZZ with some influences of Mc’Laughlin and Santana but not Prog

Tableau N° 1 (1978): It’s a Neo Classical suite of 75 minutes with some Neo Prog and Symph moments but not preeminent, again don’t mistake Neo Classical with Symphonic.

Tableau N° 2 (1998): A pure Rock meets Neo Classical, not Prog at all, sounds like Mahler or Debussy played at Rock style with metalish guitar.

Not Symphonic, maybe Neo Prog, maybe Jazz Fusion or Prog Related.

Clouds (UK/Scotland): Last year we added 24 bands and we sent a bio about Clouds…..NOT SYMPHONIC AT ALL; it’s a Psyche/Proto Prog band from 1966 to 1971. Except for The Nice, don’t expect to find Symphonic releases in 1968 (Scrapbook), 1969 (Up Above Our Heads) and the only one that could fit chronologically (Watercolor Days in 1971) has no relation with Symphonic

Recommend to be checked by Psyche, they used to tour with Jethro Tull, so they are pretty easy to find.

Cem Karaca: Another hard task, the guy is from Turkey, except for Allmusic (Not reliable at all) all the info is in Turkish and his lyrics are mostly in Ancient Anatolian. Cem Karaca was a prolific and polemic musician/Marxist politician who had an amazing live, even accused of treason because of his ideas and later received a pardon. For the samples I could find everywhere and the information available, he played some sort of Pop/Proggish ethnic music, not adequate for Symphonic at all, even made some Rap…In Anatolian!!!!…The Orchestral tracks are the less Prog (A paradox) sound like French Chanson in some weird language but very mainstream

I don’t dare to recommend him to Prog Folk, too mainstream IMHO, should be checked for Prog Related……According to Bob could be Avant Rio mostly for the lyrics BUT NO WAY SYMPHONIC…..Please provide us some info when receiving this obscure and rare artists, some samples can be found at: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU939609CV849 or in his Allmusic entry.

Lake: Prog Related at best. Suggest striking them from the list, and let it be forgotten.WE CHECKED THEM LAST YEAR (WITH RAFF, MICKY AND FRAGILE DT AND REJECTED THEM, WE RECOMMENDED TO BE REMOVED, AND A NEW TEAM HAS THE SAME OPINION.

Mandragora (UK): If this is the band, because the Master List doesn’t specify, it’s a great omission, 100% PROGRESSIVE but must be checked by PSYCHE TEAM, it’s one o the best Neo Psychedelia bands I ever heard

Mandragora (Argentina): If this is the band, it also must be checked by NEO PROG because their Guitar player formed Chaneton, it’s similar but with an addition of World Music. Again please…..GIVE US SOME INFORMATION; A BAND NAME IS NOT ENOUGH. For God’s sake none of the two Mandragoras is Symphonic!!!

Blackfeather: Kind of heavy '70s rock, with some symphonic style. But the psych/space component overwhelms it all. See if Eetu wants them.

Dawn Dialogue (Russian Symph, will be added) We have a winner! Clearly symphonic, and in the Neo era. No question. Neat story too. This was recorded secretly in a hotel room, in two sessions, in 1982 and 1984. These were true Russian rebels.

Helmerson, Anders: Keyboards, synths, and more keyboards. It's like Wakeman meets Kraftwerk. Yes, it is symphonic, will be added as soon as Bob and James give their OK.

Help Yourself: British West Coast oriented band, hard to classify, they are Prog, no doubts but closer to a mix of British Folk and Country Music….no way they are Symphonic, Should be checked by Folk Team but beware with the strong Psyche sound: http://www.terrascope.org/helps.html

Nell James (USA): I thought at last I had found a Symphonic artist, this 17 years old girl (When she released Tempus, now she’s 18) from Long Island sure has Yes influences, but has a clear Pastoral Folk structure, great stuff Should be checked by Sean Trane, I believe he’s a worth addition, samples and full material in http://nelljames.com/music.html If not accepted by Prog Folk, We recommend her to Prog Related

12. Sheshet: Some of the information says this is prog folk, but I'm not so sure. It actually get's pretty jazzy at times, and there is also some GG influence. Not enough Jazz for fusion though. There could be a case made for Art, but I think they could also work with us. Lot's of piano, and chamber-like sections. Think of Renaissance with more jazz.

To be checked by ART ROCK and Fusion, but deserves to be here

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38137&KW=Symphonic

Out of 12 bands only 2 were Symphonic, but we added a suggestion for each band hoping it could help to add them.

BTW: HT, as soon as we advance this Neo bios, we must do another cleaning rally of the master list.

Then that team is alerted. There is no reason to get angry about it.

That's unavoidable HT, people take their favoruite band personally, remember how angry I used to get whenever Gabriel Genesis received a bad commet, Igot used, but it took time, because we take our favorite band as part of us.

This way, we make sure it goes in the proper sub-genre. And just because we are specialists in one area, doesn't mean we don't know know about other sub-genres. We constantly discuss things with Victor, Dean, David, Hughes, Assaf, Jody, etc., because their opinions are valuable.

That won't change, that's how we use to work and how we ended in the Neo Prog Team also.

Iván