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MikeEnRegalia 
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 Posted: January 05 2008 at 19:19 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist. |
I don't think that's the issue here. It's about the people who listen to prog ... they have their own choice of whether to become an elitist who doesn't care about anything other than prog, or remain open-minded and also care about other genres. That's why I voted 6 ... I do consider myself to be an elitist to a certain degree. I think that prog simply has a more serious approach to music as a form of art than non-prog rock/metal. But on the other hand there are quite a few tremendously well done non-prog rock/metal albums ...
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Mike I'm talking about the people who listen Prog, the people who caresto listen, analyze and understands Prog, yes it's an elite because it's a minority that believes Prog is the best genre FOR THEM.
This doesn't mean you can't listen and love other genres, I don't believe The Who is Prog or even related, but I love The Who more than most Prog bands, I love the music of Jackson Browne, Meat Loaf, Fleetwood Mac, Cranberries, early REM, early U2, but as a genre I like more Prog.
Why are we ashamed toi admit we believe Prog is the best genre FOR US=
I heard you talking about the extreme complexity and importance f Metal, not once but several times, does this makes you a metal elitist...I don't believe so, it just makes you a person that knows what he likes.
Prog is for an elite, that can't be debated, it's for a minority that cares enough to understand it, that is willing to listen an album he ahtes 5, 10 or 15 times until he/she gets to love it, a person who doesn't believe in easy and ijnstant satisfaction in music.
Those are my 2 cents.
Iv�n
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I just mean that although I think that prog is superior to non-prog in many ways, I can still appreciate many non-prog bands and albums. Guns 'n Roses - Appetite for Destruction is a good example ... 100% non-prog, but still a masterpiece IMO.  So I'm an elitists to some degree, with many exceptions. 
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 05 2008 at 19:20
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jimmy_row
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Posted: January 05 2008 at 21:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
You may call it elitist, I call it an underground movement...but even at its' peak, progressive rock was a very popular movement - Yes, Tull, Pink Floyd, and ELP could easily claim a level of popularity on par with Led Zeppelin, The Who, and The Rolling Stones.
No Jimmy, I was there and Prog was always for a minority exzcept Pink Floyd, never a Ptreog band was at the leve,l of Zep, The Who and muxch less in the level of opularity of the The Rolling Stones.
Genesis made the farewell tour of The Lamb, their peak of creativity in halve empty auditoriums, they even had to cancell the Gabroiel frewell concert due toi lackl of interest.
The xase was similar with most Prog artists.
From what I can make, prog was accesable to a wide audience and doens't neccesarily require high intelligence to understand. I don't think that most people listen to music as a fashion or to dance...many do of course, but then remember all the enthusiasts of classical, folk, blues, jazz, etc, it's just that sometimes we notice the "hipsters" more because they're all over the media.
But they are the vast majority,m Folk, Jazz and even Blues are elitist genres also, in lesser degree that Prog but they also are.
...and I don't know much about music theory, and I'm not trying to improve it when I listen to music. I listen to prog the same way I listen to all other music, so it's not any different for me. It's more of an outlet for escapism...and perhaps that's where you and I differ.
Well, not all of us have the same priorities, but I'm sure you know how a rhytghm section works, what does a 9/8 means, ask a Britney or N'Sync fan, they won't eben have the slightest idea.
Couldn't you say the same for Rap (I mean the real stuff, not the mainstream junk on MTV)...IMO it's important to understand the background of the artists and the social envrironment that produces the lyric...anything with a story behind it is worth understanding. All good music demands effort from the audience, that's why you don't hear a lot of it on mainstream radio; and prog isn't the only good music.
Then good music is elitist...point taken.
I tend to aviod pretentious tag on prog because it characterizes a claim to importance that is unwarranted, and I don't think that prog was so ostentatious that the artists thought they were on par with the classical geniuses and such...it was all entertainment. You don't have to know Mussorgsky to enjoy Pictures at an Exhibition, and ELP probably knew that (not that they cared), they weren't trying to be better than anybody through their music, they were just entertaining.
Read all the definitions of pretentious:
making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : ambitious
Prog musicians now their skills and make demanding music, they are ambitious, and that's excellent, as for the synonym, isn't entering to the stage on a flying piano or using capes, or making a 50,000 images shows in the 70's without computer showy?
Accept it, Prog is pretentious, but most of the artists have a support in their skills.
not if they do it well
Now you're veing pretentious, nobody would do Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor or OPictures at anExhibition better than Bach and Mussorgsky, this kids (they were very young in those years) took the peak of the creativity of the greatest artists and dares to modify it, they did it well, some did a crappy job, but's pretentious to try to do a piece by the "Father of Music" better than him, even if you succeed.
again, I think that you and I look at the p-word a little differently.
A pretentious musician/performer would be one that IS mediocre but claims to be much better...probably drives fancy cars, big houses, etc. Not a good thing IMO.
Yes, I see pretentiousness as the opposit of conformism, a musician must always try to be the best, even if he's arrogant in the process, not that I like arrogance, but at least some have reasons to be arrogant.
Wagner was a racist arrogant, Bach was an arrogant, the Mighty Handful were extremely arrogant and refused to play waltzes because they saw it as second class music...But all of them were genius, we must accept their arrogance as part of their personality and as a component of what makes them great.
Prog doesn't have enemies - there aren't people plotting to "bring it down", there are only people who understand it, like it, know it, or don't know it or like it. I'm not ashamed of it, but it's not the only music I like...very far from it. And as much as you talk about mainstream music fans, now you want to follow their example?
Again. Rap artists claim they aRE the best in the world, and with indsults agaibnst anybody else, Madonna is catal��ued as the Queen of Pop, young kids say on TV that they want to be like Eminem when they grow up, why can't we admit that we believe Prog is the best genre of music if we do?
I believe it, I won't deny it, and not ashamed.
that doens't sound elitist to me. You think prog is best FOR YOUR TASTE. Wouldn't a prog elitist belittle other music with the thought that everyone else should listen to prog because it is best FOR EVERYONE?
Beep..wrong...An elitist would never try to share it's priviledged position with others, the elite in Country Clubs, want to keep their status for a few, they don't want the average Joe running in a shorts with leather shoes and suit socks by the pool, that's not the elitism I'm talking about, we all would like Prog to be more popular....But we must accept Prog is not for everybody, most people won't accept the challenge. most people will take Trespass for example, listen 3 minutes, shout crap and use the CD as a coaster, I hated Trespass at the first listen as I hated Relayer, it took me time, but now they are among my favorites.
That's the kind of effort that only a minority oir an elite if you want, is willing to do.
Cheers
Iv�n
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As Darqdean pointed out, it comes down to our interpretation of the word "elitist"...the possibly negative connotation would be the reason why I avoid it, as well as the word "pretentious":
1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts> b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>
2: making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : ambitious <the pretentious daring of the Green Mountain Boys in crossing the lake — American Guide Series
so you can take either definition in this case.
we'll just have to disagree on the other points...but my last word applies to the popularity aspect: Jethro Tull had number 1 albums in the US charts with Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play....Yes even had one with Tales from Topographic Oceans...so prog was clearly in the mainstream at that time and that's why we have soo many bands around here - everyone was doing it and it wasn't for an elite audience. Of course things are different today...I haven't met a real-live prog-head in person. Ever.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 00:14 |
jimmy_row wrote:
we'll just have to disagree on the other points...but my last word applies to the popularity aspect: Jethro Tull had number 1 albums in the US charts with Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play....Yes even had one with Tales from Topographic Oceans...so prog was clearly in the mainstream at that time and that's why we have soo many bands around here - everyone was doing it and it wasn't for an elite audience. Of course things are different today...I haven't met a real-live prog-head in person. Ever. |
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
- Thick as a Brick, became Platinum (1'000,000 copies sold) by the R.I.A.A. only in November of 1982.....One million copies sold in USA in 10 years in terms of popularity IS NOTHING pal...Jethro Tull only won a Grammy in 1987 with A Crest of A Knave as best Metal album.
- Tales from Topographic Oceans only reached N° 6 in the charts of USA for one week Never reached platinuum certificate by RIAA.....Again, it's hardly comparable with mainstream
Now, lets see the charts of those years:
This is the chart of 1972:
No Jethro Tull
Now lets see 1974, the year of Tales:
Now we have King Crimson and yes, but lets remember the certifications of The Lamb:
Since 1974, Gold Certificate means 500,000 albums, so in USA the Lamb who was a Top 20 album in 1972, only sold 500,000 copies in 16 years...Hardly mainstream numbers.
In UK was worst, Gold Record means 100,000 albums and in Canada means only 50,000 albumns sold
BTW: Red which is a top 20 of 1974, never received a Gold certificate apparently.
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
¨
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iván
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Draith
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 00:58 |
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Three. Maybe 2. about 98% of everything I listen to these days is prog, but I only got into it like a year ago (not even quite that), and though I have definitely become the expert among my peers I'm nothing compared to what I'll be in thirty years, I'm sure of it. By then, when I have just about every progressive album of the 1000s I'll ever want and now them inside and out and have written progressive music myself and don't consider anything music besides prog, THEN maybe I can consider myself an elitist. As of one year with Rush, Yes, Dream Theater, Gentle Giant, King Crimson and most of the other big names, I'm just a newbie as far as I'm concerned.
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rileydog22
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 01:00 |
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I'm not elitist, I'm just the UBERMENSCH.
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Teh_Slippermenz
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 01:15 |
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Heck I don't know, 6?
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Dean
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 09:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
::snip::
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
�
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iv�n |
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
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What?
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Nash
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Joined: January 30 2007
Location: Argentina
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Points: 529
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:41 |
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9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock
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jimmy_row
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 11:47 |
darqdean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
::snip::
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
�
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iv�n |
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream. |
ffshew...now I don't feel like as much of an idiot  I wasn't around back then but I think there are still traces that prog was very big in its' heyday. In my town, Nowhere USA, the classic rock stations still play plenty of Yes, Jethro Tull, ELP, etc etc, and not only the singles but sometimes entire pieces like Karn Evil 9, Thick as a Brick, or South Side of the Sky...so there's still must be some popular viability if you can get away with playing this music in a town where the audience had likely never heard some of it...the same people yelling "Play Freeeeeebird!!"
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:22 |
Nash wrote:
9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock |
You truly are a music snob 
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:25 |
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iván |
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Dean
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 20:23 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me. |
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles - a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In terms of monetary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold. |
In the UK in 1973 a single was �0.45 and single album �2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I am not disagreeing with the single strategy for bands like T. Rex, Slade or even 10cc, but for the Prog bands of the early 70s singles were not of primary importance - they were more interested in selling albums and if they did release a single it was to get interest in the album.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this. |
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - among the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog. |
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iv�n |
Again, MTV arrived long after the hay-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
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Edited by darqdean - January 06 2008 at 22:10
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What?
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keith_emerson
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 21:21 |
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OMG that statics post of Ivan terrified me...
I voted a 10 just for fun, but certainly I would deserve an 8.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 06 2008 at 22:19 |
darqdean wrote:
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles (Are you sure?....Look a few lines bellow)- a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
I do believe lenght was a major issues for the radios, I remember some bands like Yes and Manfred Mann's Earth Band had to release single editions shorter than the actual song.
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
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1 The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 That's Me (UK, Decca Acetate)
3 The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca Demo F12735)
4 The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca F12735)
5 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
6 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
7 The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Unrel.,Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
8 The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
9 The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
10 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, Demo, F-12775)
11 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, F-12775)
12 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Promo, Y-8383)
13 A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Y-8383) |
1 In The Beginning (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, Demo, F12949)
3 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, F12949)
4 When The Sour Turns To Sweet (N.Z., Decca, DEC.482) |
1 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo "Pink", GS 1)
2 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo, GS 1)
3 Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (US, Audiodisc Acetate)
4 White Mountain (US, MCA, Acetate)
5 Visions Of Angels (US, MCA, Acetate)
6 The Knife (US, MCA, Acetate) |
1 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (UK, Charisma CB 152)
2 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, Promo, 6073 305)
3 The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, 6073 305 |
1 White Mountain / VV.AA (Italy, Ariston, Promo, PR-22)
2 For Absent Friends / The Fountain Of Salmacis / The Musical Box (US, Charisma EP CG-EP-A/B)
3 The Fountain Of Salmacis (extract) / VV.AA. (US, Buddah, SP50)
4 Happy The Man / VV.AA. (Italy, Ariston Promo PR-35)
5 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 181)
6 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma CB181)
7 Happy The Man / Mama Weer All Crazee Now (The Slade) (Italy,Charisma Juke Box, AS 179)
8 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Charisma 6073 316)
9 Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Philips/Charisma 6073 316) |
1 Watcher Of The Skies / Watcher Of The Skies (US, Charisma, Promo, CAR 103)
2 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (US, Charisma, CAR 103)
3 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, Promo, 6073 331)
4 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, 6073 331)
5 Watcher Of The Skies / Made Milwaukee Famous (Rod Stewart) (Italy, Charisma Juke Boxe AS 216)
6 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (Italy, Charisma 6073 331)
7 Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 331)
8 Twilight Alehouse (UK, Charisma, Flexidisc)
9 I Know What I Like / After The Ordeal (Fra, Charisma, Promo, 6873 174)
10 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Port., Charisma, 6873 174)
11 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo PL, FC 26002)
12 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo MO, FC 26002)
13 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (US., Charisma, FC 26002 |
1 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo White Label, FC 26002)
2 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Spa.., Charisma, Promo 6832 080)
3 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Center, CB 224)
4 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Full, CB 224)
5 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (UK., Charisma, CB 224)
6 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Italy., Charisma, 6073 347)
7 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Hol., Charisma, 6073 347)
8 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Promo, Charisma, SFL-1857)
9 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Charisma, SFL-1857)
10 I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 347)
11 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Test, F 22909)
12 In The Beginning / Kansas City (L.H,S.) (Italy, Decca, Promo Juke Box, F 22909)
13 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca F 22909)
14 Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 238)
15 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Fra.UK, Charisma Promo, 6873 231)
16 Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma , CB 238)
17 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Ger., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
18 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Port.., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
19 Counting Out Time / Timore e Tremore (Mai Lai) (Italy,, Charisma Promo Juke Box, AS 283)
20 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Italy., Charisma,, 6073 357)
21 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Norv., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
22 I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo SP Blue, FC 26002) |
1 I Know What I Like / More Fool Me / Dancing With The Moonlit Knight
(Bra., Charisma EP 6228 202)
2 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
3 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma 6073 357)
4 Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (N.Z., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
5 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US.,ATCO Promo 45-7013)
6 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time (US.,ATCO PL/MO/SP 45-7013)
7 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time / The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging / Back In N.Y.C. (Bra.,Charisma EP 6228 203)
8 The Carpet Crawlers / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (Italy, Charisma 6073 363)
9 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma Promo CB 251)
10 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma CB 251)
11 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Australia, Charisma 6073 367)
12 The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Port., Charisma 6073 367) |
1 Carpet Crawl / Counting Out Time (Bra., Charisma 6073 374)
2 A Trick Of The Tail / Carpet Crawl (Ger., Charisma 6073 379)
3 I Know What I Like / Carpet Crawlers (Bra., Charisma 6073 395)
4 The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Gold Flexi, SF 1471)
5 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, White Ch., F 22909)
6 In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Promo F 22909)
7 I Know What I Like / Counting Out Time (UK, Old Rec. OG-9263 - two labels diff.)
8 I Know What I Like / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US, Atlantic's Oldies Series, OS-13239)
9 I Know What I Like (UK, CD Virgin Value 3" VVCS 10 + 3 tracks)
10 Archive 1967-1975 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler G-BOX 98)
11 Archive Volume 1 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler PRCD 8583)
12 Turn It On Again - The Hits Promo (UK, CD 5" Virgin Promo 3 tracks Sampgen8 Lc03098)
13 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (US, CD 5" Atlantic Promo PRCD 9111)
14 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (UK, CD 5" Virginc Promo 7243 896420)
15 The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Radio Edit) (UK, CD 5" Promo DJ Crawl-CDJ-1)
16 Carpet Crawlers '99 (Acetate Promo) (UK, CD 5" Promo Virgin)
17 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Follow You Follow Me (US, Re-released 7" Atlantic PG 102) |
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More than 50.. pretty lot for a Prog band that supposedly shouldn't release singles in order to be a serious band...BTW: I'm only posting the Gabriel era, imagine after Collins got the lead vocal.
Yes also had their part
Single: Something's Coming
Artist: Yes
1969 Atlantic
2091 199
1. Something's Coming
2. Dear Father
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Your Move
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
7": AT 2819
A. Your Move (3:30)
B. Clap (3:03)
Notes: Label reads "From Atlantic LP 8283 (The Yes Album)". (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004)
Single: Your Move/America
Artist: Yes
19?? Atlantic Oldies Series
7": OS-13141 double A-side
1. Your Move [Anderson] (3:30)
2. America (4:06)
Notes: Thanks to Tom Demi.
Single: Anerica
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
ATL 10226
1. America (4.06)
2. Total Mass Retain (3.16)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Yours is No Disgrace
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
2091 214
1. Yours is No Disgrace (5.40)
2. Your Move (3.28)
3. Sweet Dreams (3.42)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
7": 2091 178 [Europe], AT 2854 [North America]
See: Fragile
1. Roundabout
2. Long Distance Runaround
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers & Terry Burman.
Single: Wonderous Stories
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
ATL 10999
See: Going for the One
1. Wonderous Stories (3.45)
2. Parallels (5.52)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Awaken
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
K 11047
See: Going for the One
1. Awaken pt 1 (6.40)
2. Going for the One (3.40)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Don't Kill the Whale
Artist: Yes
1978 Atlantic
K11184
See: Tormato
1. Don't Kill the Whale
2. Abilene
Notes: Thanks to Al Spilowey.
Single: Into the Lens
Artist: Yes
1980 Atlantic
ATL 11 622
See: Drama
1. Into the Lens (I am a Camera) (3.44)
2. Does it Really Happen (6.30)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1981 Atlantic
7": PR 415 Q
A. Roundabout (7:23)
B. I've Seen All Good People (7:00)
Notes: Live tracks from Classic Yes. (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004) |
We are talking about 11 singles.
We can check a lot of iconic bands and find singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Yes it was long after the album was released, but before ATTW3 there was a massive airplay of Follow You Follow Me.
In the UK in 1973 a single was 0.45 and single album 2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I believe we were talking about USA.
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
I believe we were talking about USA, but doesn't matter, a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Yes, UK was a different sutuation than USA and most of the rest of the world, remember that long after, Genesis had to release Three Sides Life for USA in a different version than the UK one that had 4 sides live, because the label feared that the Prog side wouldn't sell and they filled it with tracks as Paperlate.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Maybe in England, but for USA and Latin America it was released in 1977 and was a phenomenom months before due to radio.
Again, MTV arrived long after the hey-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
You keep talking about your UK universe, but check the rest of the world, even in UK, Proig was for a minority, the numbers of albums sold don't lie, lets see the best Yes albums and what BRITISH certifications they got:
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BPI
Silver: Means 60,000 albums
Gold: Means 100,000 albums
Platinuum: Means 300,000 albums
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Silver , Fri Mar 1 1974
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Gold , Fri Mar 1 1974
(TFTO was the first ever album to ship GOLD under new guidelines)
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Silver , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Gold , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , TORMATO , Silver , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , TORMATO , Gold , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , DRAMA , Silver , Thu Sep 11 1980
YES , YESSHOW , Silver , Thu Jan 1 1981
YES , 90125 , Silver , Wed Dec 28 1983
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Silver , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Gold , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Platinum , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , 90125 , Gold , Wed Jan 2 1985
YES , FRAGILE , Silver , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Gold , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Platinum , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , CLASSIC , Silver , Sun Mar 1 1992
YES , THE ULTIMATE YES COLLECTION - 35TH ANNIVERSARY , Silver , Fri Aug 15 2003
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Only Close to the Edge and Fragile have Platinum certificate (300,000 albums)
CTTE achieved Platinum only in 1984, this means they took 10 years to sell 300,000 albums. THAT'S NOTHING.
Fragile reached Platinum in 1988, theis means they took 17 years to sell 300,000 album, even worst.
I don't know the UK population, but 300,000 albums in ten and seventeen years is not worth the investment if you think only in economic yterns, now compare with some popular musicians:
Thriller by Michael Jaclkson:
| UK |
11x Platinum |
3,570,000 |
Oops I did it Again by Britney Spears:
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum[17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 06 2008 at 22:39
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Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 07:41 |
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7 of 10 , I guess.
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:14 |
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2 at most these days. More often than not far less.
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:22 |
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hehehe why do some people get offended and vote for 1 or 0? jajaja YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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jimmy_row
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Joined: July 11 2007
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Points: 2601
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:41 |
Ivan: Being that you're a huge Genesis fan, as I am, I'm sure you know that they didn't exactly take those singles seriously...many were empty motions or contractual fulfillments, while the earliest ones were aimed at raising awareness for the band, especially in Italy betwenn 71/72 were they became very popular. The band weren't particularly focussed on singles (in fact, they didn't like their songs being cut up and edited), but with management, there's always a contractual obligation or some kind of outside pressure...all the same, most of these singles were released after the records and are just a footnote, meant to promote the album at the time.
I could be wrong, but to me, there's no denying the initial leap in sales that albums from Yes et al took...whether or not they sold consistently through the years, they made a big splash in the charts, and that is definately saying something about their popularity/mainstream appeal
*(Ivan, I'm curious about the geographical appeal of prog in the '70s, because you mention that it was next to unheard of in Peru, while Dean describes a proggers paradise in the UK...makes me think that prog was predominantly an Englsih-speaking movement, while the heavily promoted pop-albums you mentioned *eg Thriller* were marketed around the world to enormous audiences...and probably even bands like The Rolling Stones to a lesser extent.)
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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TGM: Orb
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Points: 8052
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 17:19 |
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4. Elitist enough to mock rap, "modern rock" and soul, but I still love blues rock, world, and heavy and classic rock. And classical. And jazz.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 07 2008 at 20:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
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That's was not >50 different Genesis singles - only a completist counts every edition of each single.
The famous Charisma label had found a small amount of chart success selling left-field singles (Lindisfarne and Clfford T Ward) but in the words of Tony Stratton-Smith: "Charisma, in fact, has had only one Artist and Repertoire man until this year and that was Stratton Smith himself. He signs the bands directly and takes a hearty artistic hand in determining what goes out of the office with a Charisma label on it. Singles, he says, were never Charisma's strong point simply because he saw no need for them. Charisma was selling albums in copious quantities and those albums were by groups that English and American radio chieftains saw only as album acts." ( http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm)
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe we were talking about USA.
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Jimmy_row's original statement was regarding the time when Prog was at it's peak, which was from 1970 through to 1976, he made no reference to any country. I referenced the UK since that was the epicentre of the growth (and decline) of Prog Rock in the 70s...
I was not being Anglo-centric in the facts I stated - I was just reflecting what I witnessed first hand in the UK in the 1970s - you made similar statements about your personal experiences of Prog from your youth. I cannot comment on what prog was like in the USA during th 70s because I was not there and had little interest in American music at that time.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
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The World-wide status of Silver and Gold album is not related to the number of units sold, but to the percentage of the county's population that bought them. So the USA a Gold album has to sell 5 times more than the UK because the population is 5 times larger. Therefore achieving Gold in any country in the World is a comparable measure of popularity, not wealth.
US Gold = 500,000 from a population of 250,000,000 = 0.2% of population
UK Gold = 100,000 from a population of 50,000,000 = 0.2% of population
So, yes you can make more money by going Gold in the USA, which is why every artist on the planet wants to be big in the USA - but you can make exactly the same amount of money by going Gold in 6 or 7 European countries. To use a modern statistic - Dream Theatre have sold 6 million albums, but only 2 million of those were in the USA - i.e they sell twice as many albums outside their own country.
(btw: Two weeks at No. 1 over the Christmas period means quite a lot as this is the time of high album sales and is equivalent in sales terms to several weeks at No.1 at any other time of the year)
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum[17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
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Pre-teen fads like the Spice Girls and Britney Spears are exceptions and do not really relate to Mainstream success either - the vast majority of Mainstream artists sell considerably less than that.
The general trend is exponential with all the artists around the middle to lower regions of the charts selling similar volumes, which is why Unsigned bands can find their downloads in the top-40 and Marillion can release 23 singles over the past 24 years, all of which chart.
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What?
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