Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)
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Topic: Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Rate yourself! (Prog elitism)
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 13:52
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I was going to set the maximum 5, but this is better.
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Replies:
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 13:58
 6 for me ...
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 14:01
 7 for me.
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Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 14:05
5 sounds about right
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 14:08
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 15:54
While I generally do consider "Progressive Rock" (as we use it at this site entailing many styles of music) superior to other forms of rock, I don't consider Prog to be superior to other forms of music.
Within the so-called Prog umbrella (and I know some hate that term), I must recognise elitist tendencies in myself. Generally I do find chamber rock/ avant Prog, for instance, better than popular Prog. I also recognise that what one likes is based on taste and experience, but having liked much music that has palled, I consider my tastes better than a few years ago (heck, bettter than a few weeks ago since I am always discovering and appreciating new to me music).
I really don't consider myself as one of the elite in progressive music circles, however 9or music circles generally). There are many people just at this site who know far more music than I (ergo have experienced far more music and are therefore better able to evaluate and appreciate more music than I) and are musically much better educated.. I am not well-versed in music theory, or that knowledgeable about the history of music. Furthermore, I am not a talented musician or composer, so that puts me farther from the elite.
Not really sure how to vote. I don't feel I'm part of an elite group, nor do I advocate dominance by a particular group. When someone mentions how Menudo was the best band ever, I do feel a certain smugness and sense of superiority. Not just because I believe that my tastes are superior, but because I think that is a very ignorant thing to say. I also think it would be stupid to say that Art Zoyd, or whoever, is the best band (which I would never say even when limiting to RIO/ Avant). At least I maintain some recognition of the subjective and objective.
There's a great big world of good music, and I've only touched the surface of it. My knowledge will keep on expanding and I will discover and come to appreciate different types of music that will alter my thinking on how "good" my tastes were back in December of 2007.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 16:01
3 for me.... could go lower... because true prog elitists are as closed-minded and foolish as those who write off prog as indulgent and overblown. Prog is just one of many forms of music I love with a passion... this is only the latest I guess.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 16:53
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8 or 9. Because 80%-90% percent of the stuff I have is prog. Does that justify it? Or if your saying 10 is like really closed minded then I'm far from that.
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 18:27
I try not to be as it doesnt help sell prog to those who havent yet discovered it. but secretly within I know what I like best and best of all why I like it.
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 20:07
Middle of the road... so 5-ish
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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 20:14
I have been criticized by one of my friends as being quite elitist about my tastes in music. I'd give myself a 7.
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 21:21
1. There's way too much music outside Prog that I enjoy for me to even dream of being elitist within the realms of Prog. Which would make me even more special, for I would be in possession of higher music appreciation abilities and knowledge than Prog Elitists and could look down my nose at them from my exalted position of ... erm... elitism.... oh bugger 
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What?
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Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 22:06
4 or 5 I presume..Voted for 4 (don't want to be an elitist..). Love a lot of other music as well, but I will defend Prog when I need to..and it's quite superior to some other strands of music IMO..
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Posted By: Nuke
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 22:43
1 because I like everything. I like even listening to the doofus runing down the hall druming on furniture. I even like listening to random sounds. You know, like how snow sounds when you step on it, or a zipper's vriipp. Even stuff like that earns my admiration. My tapping on the keyboard opens images of telegrams in my mind.
 A rustic sort of mood comes over me. I think about the acoustics, how the hollowness underneath the keys gives it it's unique sound.Â
I imagine what it would take to electronically reproduce the sound without sampling.Â
I begin thinking how I would interpret it into my own vision.Â
Some music I adore more then other music, this is true.Â
But I don't argue about it's superiority, I don't dismiss "lesser" music.
 More, I say, "this is awesome, you should check it out"
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: December 29 2007 at 23:23
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I love several kinds of music, but prog is what I like most. I would say 5-6 even though I like some rap, punk and so on..
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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 00:22
Lets see:
- I spend 4 or 5 hours daily on Internet.
- I spend 90% of my time on Internet here, in a Prog site working for free
- I believe Prog is the best genre for my taste, I would be a liar if I didn't thought like this, being that I listren Prog most of the time, a Madonna fan will say Madonna is the best in the world and will be as honest as i'm being.
- I don't consider myself a foolish because I know what I like, and Prog is the best music for me
- I believe Prog should remain as pure as possible in order to survive.
So yes, I'm a purist and call me elitist if yoiu want, I love Prog and is the genre that satisfies me more, so I will rate myself with an 8.
Iván
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 00:51
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My music collection is mostly prog, and if its not prog rock its music that I consider to be progressive.
However, I can't completely turn my back on the music I was raised with, and I do like many other genres of music even though my main focus is prog.
I'd say 7ish.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Posted By: reality
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 02:22
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Is there a zero? There is nothing to be elite about! Are we all still in High school/Secondary school here, we need to grow up. Anyway, Prog is not even at the top of the food chain and Post Rock, Jazz Fusion, most "Progressive Metal" has nothing to do with "Prog" in most of the worlds books. So what are we talking here? Anyone who has a singular music collection is sadly losing out on real life.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 02:34
 reality wrote:
Is there a zero? There is nothing to be elite about! Are we all still in High school/Secondary school here, we need to grow up. Anyway, Prog is not even at the top of the food chain and Post Rock, Jazz Fusion, most "Progressive Metal" has nothing to do with "Prog" in most of the worlds books. So what are we talking here? Anyone who has a singular music collection is sadly losing out on real life. |
Since we decided to devote our life's to Prog, we knew we were not at the top of the food chain, mainstream is, but we never cared.
But if we really love something, we are entitled to believe it's the best music for us, I see rappers proudly talking about how great if their music, I hardly consider Rap music but well, they are entitled to believe it because they love that music.
Why shouldn't we believe Prog is the best music FOR US.
If we don't, then we are loosing our time here, or worst we're not being honest.
I listen a lot of other genres, but FOR ME AND FOR MY TASTE there's nothing like Prog, if that's called elitism, then I'm elitist and proud....This doesn't mean I don't have a couple hundreed albums of other genres, but when I have to decide, I stay with Prog.
And even if a person has only a Prog collection...What's the problem? That person likes Prog and nothing more, that's real life for him, which is different than real life for you.
Iván
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Posted By: Anderson III
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 07:35
10!
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 08:57
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This poll's getting interesting.
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Posted By: paloz
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 11:28
7! 
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Posted By: ozzy_tom
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 15:23
I voted 10! But I think that it was a little too radical in fact 'cuse I also listen (from time to time) to my first love: hard rock.
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Posted By: ES335
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 16:54
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I rated myself a two. I listen to a lot of other music, heck, prog is relatively new to me except for Frank Zappa and Pink Floyd. I would have rated myself a one, but some music really is terrible.
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Posted By: asimplemistake
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 18:33
4. I listening to mostly prog although I also enjoy (some) classic rock, minimalism, and a lot of other styles of classical and jazz music. I still mainly stick with the prog and I normally am not nice about mainstream bands.
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Posted By: obiter
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 18:54
I reckon I'm over-egging the pudding at 4 ...
Definitely a 5 on spacerock though ...
-several zillion on RIO
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An té nach mbíonn láidir ní folláir dó bheith glic
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 19:48
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A 1 for me, though I could've easily voted 0. Though Prog is definitely one of my favourite kinds of music, I don't see myself as an elitist or purist in any way. I do have my ideas on what is prog and what is not, but I tend to be rather more open-minded than many other people.
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 19:57
I put an eight. I often find myself barely giving other forms of music a chance, then again nothing satisfies me like progressive music. There are only a few non prog bands I listen to (Steveie Ray Vaghn, a perfect circle...). The only thing keeping me from giving myself a ten is my respect for ALL music, accept for mainstream hip-Hop, I really dont ear the music in that music.
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 30 2007 at 21:51
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Lets see:
- I spend 4 or 5 hours daily on Internet.
- I spend 90% of my time on Internet here, in a Prog site working for free
- I believe Prog is the best genre for my taste, I would be a liar if I didn't thought like this, being that I listren Prog most of the time, a Madonna fan will say Madonna is the best in the world and will be as honest as i'm being.
- I don't consider myself a foolish because I know what I like, and Prog is the best music for me
- I believe Prog should remain as pure as possible in order to survive.
So yes, I'm a purist and call me elitist if yoiu want, I love Prog and is the genre that satisfies me more, so I will rate myself with an 8.
Iván |
I was about to say I agree with you... until I saw number 5. I must say I couldnt disagree more, but still, I respect you opinion.
As for me, I think a 7 or 8 might be more fitting
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Forkface
Date Posted: January 04 2008 at 19:03
Well, being a record store owner and a life long prog fan, I get myself a 9. I would have said a 10, but that goes for most TOOL fans. Most (not all) of the ones I know only listen to TOOL and they believe that everything else sucks. So I save 10 for them.
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 00:19
0 or 1 for me, because I view elitism as an extention of artistic preferences to one's personal quest to be better than others: an elitist would be someone who thinks that they have superior taste to the mainstream and that they are of higher intellect due to this heightened awareness or understanding of art/music. To me, it's just music...no reason to think I'm better than the next guy; or that the music I get off on is superior to the music you like, simply because I like it - that would be incredibly pretentious and self-important.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 01:38
jimmy_row wrote:
0 or 1 for me, because I view elitism as an extention of artistic preferences to one's personal quest to be better than others:
Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist.
an elitist would be someone who thinks that they have superior taste to the mainstream and that they are of higher intellect due to this heightened awareness or understanding of art/music.
I believe the music I listen is the best FOR MY TASTE, I would be a liar if I said I consider Rap, POP and Disco as good as Prog while I spend most of my free time in a Prog siite have and about 80% of my albums from this genre.
I'm honest, I believe Prog is the best genre for me as a Rap or Pop listener believes the genres they like are the best.
To me, it's just music...no reason to think I'm better than the next guy;
I don't think I'm better, I believe I'm different, but I tell you something, the average Prog listener knows more about music than the average fan of ALMOST any Rock genre, because it demands an effort from the audience, and if you want to really understand Prog, you need to analyze it.
or that the music I get off on is superior to the music you like, simply because I like it - that would be incredibly pretentious and self-important.
Prog is pretentious, that's also a fact, playing Pictures at an Exhibition before an audience of kids who probably never ghheard about Mussorgsky before, is pretentious and it works, Journey to the Centre of the Earth didn't required almost 300 persons on stage, but it sounds better.
How many Symphonic band dare to take the music of the great masters like Bach, Grieg, etc abnd make new arrangements to make it sound better? Isn't it pretentious to alter what a genius did?
Yes it's pretentious and thanks God there's people who want to achieve perfection or at leas be the closer they ca to it, if it wasn't for pretentious musicians, we would sink in mediocre performers who follow what a couple good mainstream musicians did and never take the risk of breaking boundaries.
So what's the problem to admit it?
The worst enemy of Prog is a Prohead, because he is ashamed to say he/she believes the music he/she listens is the best, while all the listeners of the other genres shout how good, cool or great is the music they listen.
Lets be honest with ourselves, it's part of human nature to try to be the best, if we don't really admit Prog is the best genre for us, then we are lying to ourselves and to the rest trying to sound open minded.
That doesn't mean all Prog is good, because there's a lot of crap out there or that only Prog is good, but if you are a Proghead, you believe Prog is the best genre, at least for your taste.
Iván
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 05:39
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Like it or not, Prog is for an
elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or
cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to
dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even
trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist. |
I don't think that's the issue here. It's about the people who listen to prog ... they have their own choice of whether to become an elitist who doesn't care about anything other than prog, or remain open-minded and also care about other genres. That's why I voted 6 ... I do consider myself to be an elitist to a certain degree. I think that prog simply has a more serious approach to music as a form of art than non-prog rock/metal. But on the other hand there are quite a few tremendously well done non-prog rock/metal albums ...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 06:19
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 11:08
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist. |
I don't think that's the issue here. It's about the people who listen to prog ... they have their own choice of whether to become an elitist who doesn't care about anything other than prog, or remain open-minded and also care about other genres. That's why I voted 6 ... I do consider myself to be an elitist to a certain degree. I think that prog simply has a more serious approach to music as a form of art than non-prog rock/metal. But on the other hand there are quite a few tremendously well done non-prog rock/metal albums ...
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Mike I'm talking about the people who listen Prog, the people who caresto listen, analyze and understands Prog, yes it's an elite because it's a minority that believes Prog is the best genre FOR THEM.
This doesn't mean you can't listen and love other genres, I don't believe The Who is Prog or even related, but I love The Who more than most Prog bands, I love the music of Jackson Browne, Meat Loaf, Fleetwood Mac, Cranberries, early REM, early U2, but as a genre I like more Prog.
Why are we ashamed toi admit we believe Prog is the best genre FOR US=
I heard you talking about the extreme complexity and importance f Metal, not once but several times, does this makes you a metal elitist...I don't believe so, it just makes you a person that knows what he likes.
Prog is for an elite, that can't be debated, it's for a minority that cares enough to understand it, that is willing to listen an album he ahtes 5, 10 or 15 times until he/she gets to love it, a person who doesn't believe in easy and ijnstant satisfaction in music.
Those are my 2 cents.
Iván
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 11:57
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I don't really disagree with much of this, I'll just touch on a few things...
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
0 or 1 for me, because I view elitism as an extention of artistic preferences to one's personal quest to be better than others:
Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist.
You may call it elitist, I call it an underground movement...but even at its' peak, progressive rock was a very popular movement - Yes, Tull, Pink Floyd, and ELP could easily claim a level of popularity on par with Led Zeppelin, The Who, and The Rolling Stones. From what I can make, prog was accesable to a wide audience and doens't neccesarily require high intelligence to understand. I don't think that most people listen to music as a fashion or to dance...many do of course, but then remember all the enthusiasts of classical, folk, blues, jazz, etc, it's just that sometimes we notice the "hipsters" more because they're all over the media.
...and I don't know much about music theory, and I'm not trying to improve it when I listen to music. I listen to prog the same way I listen to all other music, so it's not any different for me. It's more of an outlet for escapism...and perhaps that's where you and I differ.
an elitist would be someone who thinks that they have superior taste to the mainstream and that they are of higher intellect due to this heightened awareness or understanding of art/music.
I believe the music I listen is the best FOR MY TASTE, I would be a liar if I said I consider Rap, POP and Disco as good as Prog while I spend most of my free time in a Prog siite have and about 80% of my albums from this genre.
I'm honest, I believe Prog is the best genre for me as a Rap or Pop listener believes the genres they like are the best.
To me, it's just music...no reason to think I'm better than the next guy;
I don't think I'm better, I believe I'm different, but I tell you something, the average Prog listener knows more about music than the average fan of ALMOST any Rock genre, because it demands an effort from the audience, and if you want to really understand Prog, you need to analyze it.
Couldn't you say the same for Rap (I mean the real stuff, not the mainstream junk on MTV)...IMO it's important to understand the background of the artists and the social envrironment that produces the lyric...anything with a story behind it is worth understanding. All good music demands effort from the audience, that's why you don't hear a lot of it on mainstream radio; and prog isn't the only good music.
or that the music I get off on is superior to the music you like, simply because I like it - that would be incredibly pretentious and self-important.
Prog is pretentious, that's also a fact, playing Pictures at an Exhibition before an audience of kids who probably never ghheard about Mussorgsky before, is pretentious and it works, Journey to the Centre of the Earth didn't required almost 300 persons on stage, but it sounds better. I tend to aviod pretentious tag on prog because it characterizes a claim to importance that is unwarranted, and I don't think that prog was so ostentatious that the artists thought they were on par with the classical geniuses and such...it was all entertainment. You don't have to know Mussorgsky to enjoy Pictures at an Exhibition, and ELP probably knew that (not that they cared), they weren't trying to be better than anybody through their music, they were just entertaining.
How many Symphonic band dare to take the music of the great masters like Bach, Grieg, etc abnd make new arrangements to make it sound better? Isn't it pretentious to alter what a genius did? not if they do it well
Yes it's pretentious and thanks God there's people who want to achieve perfection or at leas be the closer they ca to it, if it wasn't for pretentious musicians, we would sink in mediocre performers who follow what a couple good mainstream musicians did and never take the risk of breaking boundaries. again, I think that you and I look at the p-word a little differently.
A pretentious musician/performer would be one that IS mediocre but claims to be much better...probably drives fancy cars, big houses, etc. Not a good thing IMO.
So what's the problem to admit it?
The worst enemy of Prog is a Prohead, because he is ashamed to say he/she believes the music he/she listens is the best, while all the listeners of the other genres shout how good, cool or great is the music they listen. Prog doesn't have enemies - there aren't people plotting to "bring it down", there are only people who understand it, like it, know it, or don't know it or like it. I'm not ashamed of it, but it's not the only music I like...very far from it. And as much as you talk about mainstream music fans, now you want to follow their example?
Lets be honest with ourselves, it's part of human nature to try to be the best, if we don't really admit Prog is the best genre for us, then we are lying to ourselves and to the rest trying to sound open minded.
That doesn't mean all Prog is good, because there's a lot of crap out there or that only Prog is good, but if you are a Proghead, you believe Prog is the best genre, at least for your taste.
that doens't sound elitist to me. You think prog is best FOR YOUR TASTE. Wouldn't a prog elitist belittle other music with the thought that everyone else should listen to prog because it is best FOR EVERYONE?
Iv�n
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 12:31
jimmy_row wrote:
You may call it elitist, I call it an underground movement...but even at its' peak, progressive rock was a very popular movement - Yes, Tull, Pink Floyd, and ELP could easily claim a level of popularity on par with Led Zeppelin, The Who, and The Rolling Stones.
No Jimmy, I was there and Prog was always for a minority exzcept Pink Floyd, never a Ptreog band was at the leve,l of Zep, The Who and muxch less in the level of opularity of the The Rolling Stones.
Genesis made the farewell tour of The Lamb, their peak of creativity in halve empty auditoriums, they even had to cancell the Gabroiel frewell concert due toi lackl of interest.
The xase was similar with most Prog artists.
From what I can make, prog was accesable to a wide audience and doens't neccesarily require high intelligence to understand. I don't think that most people listen to music as a fashion or to dance...many do of course, but then remember all the enthusiasts of classical, folk, blues, jazz, etc, it's just that sometimes we notice the "hipsters" more because they're all over the media.
But they are the vast majority,m Folk, Jazz and even Blues are elitist genres also, in lesser degree that Prog but they also are.
...and I don't know much about music theory, and I'm not trying to improve it when I listen to music. I listen to prog the same way I listen to all other music, so it's not any different for me. It's more of an outlet for escapism...and perhaps that's where you and I differ.
Well, not all of us have the same priorities, but I'm sure you know how a rhytghm section works, what does a 9/8 means, ask a Britney or N'Sync fan, they won't eben have the slightest idea.
Couldn't you say the same for Rap (I mean the real stuff, not the mainstream junk on MTV)...IMO it's important to understand the background of the artists and the social envrironment that produces the lyric...anything with a story behind it is worth understanding. All good music demands effort from the audience, that's why you don't hear a lot of it on mainstream radio; and prog isn't the only good music.
Then good music is elitist...point taken.
I tend to aviod pretentious tag on prog because it characterizes a claim to importance that is unwarranted, and I don't think that prog was so ostentatious that the artists thought they were on par with the classical geniuses and such...it was all entertainment. You don't have to know Mussorgsky to enjoy Pictures at an Exhibition, and ELP probably knew that (not that they cared), they weren't trying to be better than anybody through their music, they were just entertaining.
Read all the definitions of pretentious:
making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ambitious - ambitious
synonyms see http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/showy - showy
Prog musicians now their skills and make demanding music, they are ambitious, and that's excellent, as for the synonym, isn't entering to the stage on a flying piano or using capes, or making a 50,000 images shows in the 70's without computer showy?
Accept it, Prog is pretentious, but most of the artists have a support in their skills.
not if they do it well
Now you're veing pretentious, nobody would do Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor or OPictures at anExhibition better than Bach and Mussorgsky, this kids (they were very young in those years) took the peak of the creativity of the greatest artists and dares to modify it, they did it well, some did a crappy job, but's pretentious to try to do a piece by the "Father of Music" better than him, even if you succeed.
again, I think that you and I look at the p-word a little differently.
A pretentious musician/performer would be one that IS mediocre but claims to be much better...probably drives fancy cars, big houses, etc. Not a good thing IMO.
Yes, I see pretentiousness as the opposit of conformism, a musician must always try to be the best, even if he's arrogant in the process, not that I like arrogance, but at least some have reasons to be arrogant.
Wagner was a racist arrogant, Bach was an arrogant, the Mighty Handful were extremely arrogant and refused to play waltzes because they saw it as second class music...But all of them were genius, we must accept their arrogance as part of their personality and as a component of what makes them great.
Prog doesn't have enemies - there aren't people plotting to "bring it down", there are only people who understand it, like it, know it, or don't know it or like it. I'm not ashamed of it, but it's not the only music I like...very far from it. And as much as you talk about mainstream music fans, now you want to follow their example?
Again. Rap artists claim they aRE the best in the world, and with indsults agaibnst anybody else, Madonna is catal��ued as the Queen of Pop, young kids say on TV that they want to be like Eminem when they grow up, why can't we admit that we believe Prog is the best genre of music if we do?
I believe it, I won't deny it, and not ashamed.
that doens't sound elitist to me. You think prog is best FOR YOUR TASTE. Wouldn't a prog elitist belittle other music with the thought that everyone else should listen to prog because it is best FOR EVERYONE?
Beep..wrong...An elitist would never try to share it's priviledged position with others, the elite in Country Clubs, want to keep their status for a few, they don't want the average Joe running in a shorts with leather shoes and suit socks by the pool, that's not the elitism I'm talking about, we all would like Prog to be more popular....But we must accept Prog is not for everybody, most people won't accept the challenge. most people will take Trespass for example, listen 3 minutes, shout crap and use the CD as a coaster, I hated Trespass at the first listen as I hated Relayer, it took me time, but now they are among my favorites.
That's the kind of effort that only a minority oir an elite if you want, is willing to do.
Cheers
Iván
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Posted By: Nuke
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 12:56
Let me say one ting, I might be more elitest about certain bands. I will admit that I get impatient with people who think that King Crimson isn't that great, or goes about dissing magma, and yeah, it goes beyond prog, it applies to metal (what do you mean darkthrone sucks, are you mad?), and jazz (don't you diss John Coltranes free jazz) and classical (bach boring? f**k off!). But, I hold no elitism towards the genre. I realize that all genres are compunds of quality and crappy bands, and there is no such thing as an inherantly superior genre, because a genius knows no such boundaries, they will produce staggering works no matter what genre they are in.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Seabury"> 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 13:22
|
In his last paragraph Ivan has made a very important distinction between the types of Elitism and I think many here are mixing them up.
Elitism has two meanings - one good and one bad. A person who claims elitism or to be an elitist believes themselves to be in the good definition - everyone who disagrees with elitism objects to the bad definition. A bad elitist would see themselves as being superior because of what they listen to, which infers that not only is their taste superior, but their music is too. A good elitist accepts other peoples music as being of equal worth but is more selective (by their own standards, discerning) in their own tastes.
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What?
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 16:53
darqdean wrote:
In his last paragraph Ivan has made a very important distinction between the types of Elitism and I think many here are mixing them up.
Elitism has two meanings - one good and one bad. A person who claims elitism or to be an elitist believes themselves to be in the good definition - everyone who disagrees with elitism objects to the bad definition. A bad elitist would see themselves as being superior because of what they listen to, which infers that not only is their taste superior, but their music is too. A good elitist accepts other peoples music as being of equal worth but is more selective (by their own standards, discerning) in their own tastes.
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Ah, thank you for the much needed clarification, Dean and Ivan. I can now shamelessly vote 9 for myself  (if one includes all subgenres here at PA, not just Prog). |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 19:19
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Like it or not, Prog is for an elite, not saying it's the best genre, but only a minority is able or cares to understand it, while most people worries for music just to dance or to look cool, we worry analyzing, listening cerfully and even trying to improve our knowledge of music theory.
So, want it or not, Prog is elitist. |
I don't think that's the issue here. It's about the people who listen to prog ... they have their own choice of whether to become an elitist who doesn't care about anything other than prog, or remain open-minded and also care about other genres. That's why I voted 6 ... I do consider myself to be an elitist to a certain degree. I think that prog simply has a more serious approach to music as a form of art than non-prog rock/metal. But on the other hand there are quite a few tremendously well done non-prog rock/metal albums ...
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Mike I'm talking about the people who listen Prog, the people who caresto listen, analyze and understands Prog, yes it's an elite because it's a minority that believes Prog is the best genre FOR THEM.
This doesn't mean you can't listen and love other genres, I don't believe The Who is Prog or even related, but I love The Who more than most Prog bands, I love the music of Jackson Browne, Meat Loaf, Fleetwood Mac, Cranberries, early REM, early U2, but as a genre I like more Prog.
Why are we ashamed toi admit we believe Prog is the best genre FOR US=
I heard you talking about the extreme complexity and importance f Metal, not once but several times, does this makes you a metal elitist...I don't believe so, it just makes you a person that knows what he likes.
Prog is for an elite, that can't be debated, it's for a minority that cares enough to understand it, that is willing to listen an album he ahtes 5, 10 or 15 times until he/she gets to love it, a person who doesn't believe in easy and ijnstant satisfaction in music.
Those are my 2 cents.
Iv�n
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I just mean that although I think that prog is superior to non-prog in many ways, I can still appreciate many non-prog bands and albums. Guns 'n Roses - Appetite for Destruction is a good example ... 100% non-prog, but still a masterpiece IMO. So I'm an elitists to some degree, with many exceptions.
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https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls
Listened to:
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 05 2008 at 21:42
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
You may call it elitist, I call it an underground movement...but even at its' peak, progressive rock was a very popular movement - Yes, Tull, Pink Floyd, and ELP could easily claim a level of popularity on par with Led Zeppelin, The Who, and The Rolling Stones.
No Jimmy, I was there and Prog was always for a minority exzcept Pink Floyd, never a Ptreog band was at the leve,l of Zep, The Who and muxch less in the level of opularity of the The Rolling Stones.
Genesis made the farewell tour of The Lamb, their peak of creativity in halve empty auditoriums, they even had to cancell the Gabroiel frewell concert due toi lackl of interest.
The xase was similar with most Prog artists.
From what I can make, prog was accesable to a wide audience and doens't neccesarily require high intelligence to understand. I don't think that most people listen to music as a fashion or to dance...many do of course, but then remember all the enthusiasts of classical, folk, blues, jazz, etc, it's just that sometimes we notice the "hipsters" more because they're all over the media.
But they are the vast majority,m Folk, Jazz and even Blues are elitist genres also, in lesser degree that Prog but they also are.
...and I don't know much about music theory, and I'm not trying to improve it when I listen to music. I listen to prog the same way I listen to all other music, so it's not any different for me. It's more of an outlet for escapism...and perhaps that's where you and I differ.
Well, not all of us have the same priorities, but I'm sure you know how a rhytghm section works, what does a 9/8 means, ask a Britney or N'Sync fan, they won't eben have the slightest idea.
Couldn't you say the same for Rap (I mean the real stuff, not the mainstream junk on MTV)...IMO it's important to understand the background of the artists and the social envrironment that produces the lyric...anything with a story behind it is worth understanding. All good music demands effort from the audience, that's why you don't hear a lot of it on mainstream radio; and prog isn't the only good music.
Then good music is elitist...point taken.
I tend to aviod pretentious tag on prog because it characterizes a claim to importance that is unwarranted, and I don't think that prog was so ostentatious that the artists thought they were on par with the classical geniuses and such...it was all entertainment. You don't have to know Mussorgsky to enjoy Pictures at an Exhibition, and ELP probably knew that (not that they cared), they weren't trying to be better than anybody through their music, they were just entertaining.
Read all the definitions of pretentious:
making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ambitious - ambitious
synonyms see http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/showy - showy
Prog musicians now their skills and make demanding music, they are ambitious, and that's excellent, as for the synonym, isn't entering to the stage on a flying piano or using capes, or making a 50,000 images shows in the 70's without computer showy?
Accept it, Prog is pretentious, but most of the artists have a support in their skills.
not if they do it well
Now you're veing pretentious, nobody would do Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor or OPictures at anExhibition better than Bach and Mussorgsky, this kids (they were very young in those years) took the peak of the creativity of the greatest artists and dares to modify it, they did it well, some did a crappy job, but's pretentious to try to do a piece by the "Father of Music" better than him, even if you succeed.
again, I think that you and I look at the p-word a little differently.
A pretentious musician/performer would be one that IS mediocre but claims to be much better...probably drives fancy cars, big houses, etc. Not a good thing IMO.
Yes, I see pretentiousness as the opposit of conformism, a musician must always try to be the best, even if he's arrogant in the process, not that I like arrogance, but at least some have reasons to be arrogant.
Wagner was a racist arrogant, Bach was an arrogant, the Mighty Handful were extremely arrogant and refused to play waltzes because they saw it as second class music...But all of them were genius, we must accept their arrogance as part of their personality and as a component of what makes them great.
Prog doesn't have enemies - there aren't people plotting to "bring it down", there are only people who understand it, like it, know it, or don't know it or like it. I'm not ashamed of it, but it's not the only music I like...very far from it. And as much as you talk about mainstream music fans, now you want to follow their example?
Again. Rap artists claim they aRE the best in the world, and with indsults agaibnst anybody else, Madonna is catal��ued as the Queen of Pop, young kids say on TV that they want to be like Eminem when they grow up, why can't we admit that we believe Prog is the best genre of music if we do?
I believe it, I won't deny it, and not ashamed.
that doens't sound elitist to me. You think prog is best FOR YOUR TASTE. Wouldn't a prog elitist belittle other music with the thought that everyone else should listen to prog because it is best FOR EVERYONE?
Beep..wrong...An elitist would never try to share it's priviledged position with others, the elite in Country Clubs, want to keep their status for a few, they don't want the average Joe running in a shorts with leather shoes and suit socks by the pool, that's not the elitism I'm talking about, we all would like Prog to be more popular....But we must accept Prog is not for everybody, most people won't accept the challenge. most people will take Trespass for example, listen 3 minutes, shout crap and use the CD as a coaster, I hated Trespass at the first listen as I hated Relayer, it took me time, but now they are among my favorites.
That's the kind of effort that only a minority oir an elite if you want, is willing to do.
Cheers
Iv�n
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As Darqdean pointed out, it comes down to our interpretation of the word "elitist"...the possibly negative connotation would be the reason why I avoid it, as well as the word "pretentious":
1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts> b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>
2: making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ambitious - ambitious <the pretentious daring of the Green Mountain Boys in crossing the lake — American Guide Series
so you can take either definition in this case.
we'll just have to disagree on the other points...but my last word applies to the popularity aspect: Jethro Tull had number 1 albums in the US charts with Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play....Yes even had one with Tales from Topographic Oceans...so prog was clearly in the mainstream at that time and that's why we have soo many bands around here - everyone was doing it and it wasn't for an elite audience. Of course things are different today...I haven't met a real-live prog-head in person. Ever.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 00:14
jimmy_row wrote:
we'll just have to disagree on the other points...but my last word applies to the popularity aspect: Jethro Tull had number 1 albums in the US charts with Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play....Yes even had one with Tales from Topographic Oceans...so prog was clearly in the mainstream at that time and that's why we have soo many bands around here - everyone was doing it and it wasn't for an elite audience. Of course things are different today...I haven't met a real-live prog-head in person. Ever. |
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
- Thick as a Brick, became Platinum (1'000,000 copies sold) by the R.I.A.A. only in November of 1982.....One million copies sold in USA in 10 years in terms of popularity IS NOTHING pal...Jethro Tull only won a Grammy in 1987 with A Crest of A Knave as best Metal album.
- Tales from Topographic Oceans only reached N° 6 in the charts of USA for one week Never reached platinuum certificate by RIAA.....Again, it's hardly comparable with mainstream
Now, lets see the charts of those years:
This is the chart of 1972:
No Jethro Tull
Now lets see 1974, the year of Tales:
| Rank |
All
Time |
Artist |
Album |
Buy at
Amazon |
Song
Samples |
| 1 |
111 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Bob%20Marley%20and%20The%20Wailers.htm - Bob Marley and The Wailers
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A303.htm - Natty Dread
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001FXX/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001FXX&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00005KB9X/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00005KB9X&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001FXX/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001FXX&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 2 |
118 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Joni%20Mitchell.htm - Joni Mitchell
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A302.htm - Court and Spark
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GXL/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GXL&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002GXL/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002GXL&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GXL/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GXL&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 3 |
134 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Gram%20Parsons.htm - Gram Parsons
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A301.htm - Grievous Angel
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002LKH/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002LKH&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002LKH/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002LKH&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002LKH/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002LKH&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 4 |
259 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Robert%20Wyatt.htm - Robert Wyatt
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A307.htm - Rock Bottom
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000006AXS/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000006AXS&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000024C8J/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000024C8J&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000006AXS/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000006AXS&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 5 |
271 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Steely%20Dan.htm - Steely Dan
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A304.htm - Pretzel Logic
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000IPAC/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00000IPAC&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00000IPAC/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00000IPAC&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000IPAC/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00000IPAC&creative=373489&camp=211189 -
|
| 6 |
307 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Kraftwerk.htm - Kraftwerk
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A328.htm - Autobahn
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000007U6V/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000007U6V&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000007U6V/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000007U6V&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000007U6V/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000007U6V&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 7 |
309 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Richard%20and%20Linda%20Thompson.htm - Richard and Linda Thompson
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A305.htm - I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000063U/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00000063U&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0001N9ZKW/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B0001N9ZKW&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000063U/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00000063U&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 8 |
353 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Big%20Star.htm - Big Star
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A308.htm - Radio City
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000000XHA/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000000XHA&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000026F48/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000026F48&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000000XHA/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000000XHA&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 9 |
357 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Jackson%20Browne.htm - Jackson Browne
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A313.htm - Late for the Sky
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GXU/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GXU&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000262UX/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B0000262UX&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GXU/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GXU&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 10 |
399 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Eric%20Clapton.htm - Eric Clapton
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A314.htm - 461 Ocean Boulevard
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001F3N/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001F3N&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002G89/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002G89&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001F3N/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001F3N&creative=373489&camp=211189 -
|
| 11 |
406 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Randy%20Newman.htm - Randy Newman
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A309.htm - Good Old Boys
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000088E7Y/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000088E7Y&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002KC5/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002KC5&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000088E7Y/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000088E7Y&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 12 |
410 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Genesis.htm - Genesis
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A318.htm - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002J1S/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002J1S&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000024E9O/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000024E9O&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002J1S/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002J1S&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 13 |
461 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Neil%20Young.htm - Neil Young
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A316.htm - On the Beach
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009P1O0/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00009P1O0&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00009P1O0/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00009P1O0&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009P1O0/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B00009P1O0&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 14 |
511 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Van%20Morrison.htm - Van Morrison
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A306.htm - It's Too Late To Stop Now
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GNN/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GNN&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002GNN/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002GNN&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GNN/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GNN&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 15 |
594 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Ry%20Cooder.htm - Ry Cooder
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A317.htm - Paradise and Lunch
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002KC4/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002KC4&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002KC4/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002KC4&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002KC4/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002KC4&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 16 |
598 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/King%20Crimson.htm - King Crimson
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A315.htm - Red
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000003S0P/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000003S0P&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00065MDSQ/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00065MDSQ&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000003S0P/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000003S0P&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 17 |
608 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/The%20Velvet%20Underground.htm - The Velvet Underground
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A319.htm - 1969: The Velvet Underground Live with Lou Reed
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001FOD/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001FOD&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000001FOD/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000001FOD&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001FOD/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000001FOD&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 18 |
633 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Lynyrd%20Skynyrd.htm - Lynyrd Skynyrd
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A330.htm - Second Helping
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002P74/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002P74&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000026E10/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000026E10&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002P74/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002P74&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 19 |
699 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Van%20Morrison.htm - Van Morrison
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A323.htm - Veedon Fleece
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GNO/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GNO&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002GNO/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000002GNO&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000002GNO/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000002GNO&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
|
| 20 |
744 |
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/Linda%20Ronstadt.htm - Linda Ronstadt
|
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/061024/A311.htm - Heart Like a Wheel
|
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000007O1A/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000007O1A&creative=373489&camp=211189"> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000007O1A/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000007O1A&creative=374929&camp=211189"> |
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000007O1A/ref=nosim?tag=acclaimedmusi-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B000007O1A&creative=373489&camp=211189 - Listen
| |
Now we have King Crimson and yes, but lets remember the certifications of The Lamb:
| Organization |
Level |
Date |
| BPI – UK |
Gold |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_1 - February 1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975 - 1975 |
| CRIA – Canada |
Gold |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1 - May 1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978 - 1978 |
| RIAA – U.S. |
Gold |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_20 - April 20 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990 - 1990 |
Since 1974, Gold Certificate means 500,000 albums, so in USA the Lamb who was a Top 20 album in 1972, only sold 500,000 copies in 16 years...Hardly mainstream numbers.
In UK was worst, Gold Record means 100,000 albums and in Canada means only 50,000 albumns sold
BTW: Red which is a top 20 of 1974, never received a Gold certificate apparently.
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
¨
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iván
-------------
|
Posted By: Draith
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 00:58
Three. Maybe 2. about 98% of everything I listen to these days is prog, but I only got into it like a year ago (not even quite that), and though I have definitely become the expert among my peers I'm nothing compared to what I'll be in thirty years, I'm sure of it. By then, when I have just about every progressive album of the 1000s I'll ever want and now them inside and out and have written progressive music myself and don't consider anything music besides prog, THEN maybe I can consider myself an elitist. As of one year with Rush, Yes, Dream Theater, Gentle Giant, King Crimson and most of the other big names, I'm just a newbie as far as I'm concerned.
|
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 01:00
I'm not elitist, I'm just the UBERMENSCH.
-------------
 
|
Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 01:15
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 09:29
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
::snip::
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
�
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iv�n |
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
-------------
What?
|
Posted By: Nash
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 10:41
9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock
-------------
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/sydbarrettg.jpg/" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 11:47
darqdean wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Man, don't let this statistics fool you, the ral deal is singles it was even worst in the 70's. Almost anybody could have a top selling album for one or two weeks, but this was nothing, lets see your facts:
::snip::
So Top albums for a week or two means nothing in musical terms, the charts that indicate popularity are the singles.
�
Prog was never remotely as popular as mainstream, the rest are urban myths..
Iv�n |
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream. |
ffshew...now I don't feel like as much of an idiot I wasn't around back then but I think there are still traces that prog was very big in its' heyday. In my town, Nowhere USA, the classic rock stations still play plenty of Yes, Jethro Tull, ELP, etc etc, and not only the singles but sometimes entire pieces like Karn Evil 9, Thick as a Brick, or South Side of the Sky...so there's still must be some popular viability if you can get away with playing this music in a town where the audience had likely never heard some of it...the same people yelling "Play Freeeeeebird!!"
-------------
Signature Writers Guild on strike
|
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:22
Nash wrote:
9, Im really an elitist, i cant stand other music styles, but, i can consider some songs of different bands, only that, then prog rock |
You truly are a music snob
-------------
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 12:25
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me.
In terms of monitary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold.
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this.
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - amoung the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog.
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iván |
-------------
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 20:23
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
darqdean wrote:
Prog bands didn't do singles - it wasn't the cool thing to do. Singles reflect AM radio success, not mainstream popularity. During the 1970s albums became an entity in their own right and were not a just a vehicle for selling singles.
Prog bands couldn't do singles because of the lenght, but Singles were the vehicle to sell albums as it's now and always, people bought 90125 because Owner of a Lonely Heart was a hit single with MTV video and everything, in the same way And Then There Were Three was sold mainly because of Follow You Follow Me. |
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles - a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In terms of monetary success 100,000 albums was equal to 1,000,000 singles.
Of course it coisted more, but not siop much as 10 times, A 45 RPM costed 2 bucks and the average cost in the 70's of a 33 RPM Prog LP was US$ 7.00, so it0s a bit more than three times.
But the strategy was to sell 2 or 3 singles, sell millions, then place them in an LP with 7 otgher songs and sell oit again.
Any album that had 2 or 3 hit singles had more chance to be massively sold. |
In the UK in 1973 a single was �0.45 and single album �2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I am not disagreeing with the single strategy for bands like T. Rex, Slade or even 10cc, but for the Prog bands of the early 70s singles were not of primary importance - they were more interested in selling albums and if they did release a single it was to get interest in the album.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Charts are meaningful and meaningless in equal measures DSotM never reached No.1, yet remained in the top-40 for 211 weeks whereas TFTO hit No.1 but never achieved long-term sales at the time because as a double album it was expensive.
DSotM was an exception and I mentioned, but Tales reached place 6 ONE WEEK, nothing more, this represents nothing in economic terms, 500,.000 albums (Gold Certificate from 1974 on in USA and 100,000 in UK) is nothing and I stand on this. |
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
In the 1970s there was a far wider generation-gap in the record buying public than today - among the teenage and young adult demographics Prog was the most popular genre, however Prog wasn't as partisan in 1973 as it is now - the average Prog fan was as likely to buy TFTO as they were Bob Marley, Led Zepp and Linda Ronstadt and the charts reflect that.
I doont know what to say about this, but at least my Proghead frieds and me only bought Prog in the 70's, the top selling albums were Saturday Night Fever, or Grease Soundtracks, Tina Charles, Donna Summer, Franky Valli, etc, as aleways the charts were flooded by music totally different to Prog. |
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes you can argue that Prog wasn't as popular as Mainstream, but it was part of the mainstream.
I don't believe so, mainstream was what you heard on the radios, what won the Grammys, what reached MTV and Prog was not part of that.
Iv�n |
Again, MTV arrived long after the hay-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
|
-------------
What?
|
Posted By: keith_emerson
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 21:21
OMG that statics post of Ivan terrified me...
I voted a 10 just for fun, but certainly I would deserve an 8.
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 06 2008 at 22:19
darqdean wrote:
Length had little to do with it, it was part of the ethos of "serious" music not to release singles (Are you sure?....Look a few lines bellow)- a few bands did release radio-edits of their singles, some had short tracks that could be singles and others threw caution to the wind and released 7 minute singles.
I do believe lenght was a major issues for the radios, I remember some bands like Yes and Manfred Mann's Earth Band had to release single editions shorter than the actual song.
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
[
| http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm - 1968 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm - 1969 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm - 1970 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin71.htm - 1971 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm - 1972 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm - 1973 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm - 1974 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm - 1975 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm - Mixed |
|
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS1S2 - The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS1S2 - That's Me (UK, Decca Acetate)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS3S4 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca Demo F12735)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS3S4 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (UK, Decca F12735)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS5S6 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS5S6 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS7S8 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (US, Promo, Unrel.,Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS7S8 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Promo, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS9S10 - The Silent Sun / That's Me (CAN, Parrot Rec., 45-PAR 3018)
10 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS9S10 - A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, Demo, F-12775)
11 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS11S12 - A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (UK, Decca, F-12775)
12 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS11S12 - A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Promo, Y-8383)
13 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm#SINGS13S14 - A Winter's Tale / One Eye Hound (Australia, Decca, Y-8383) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm#SINGS1S2 - In The Beginning (UK, Decca Acetate)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm#SINGS1S2 - When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, Demo, F12949)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm#SINGS3S4 - When The Sour Turns To Sweet (UK, Decca, F12949)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm#SINGS3S4 - When The Sour Turns To Sweet (N.Z., Decca, DEC.482) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S1S2 - Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo "Pink", GS 1)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S1S2 - Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (UK, Charisma, Promo, GS 1)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S3S4 - Looking For Someone / Visions Of Angels (US, Audiodisc Acetate)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S3S4 - White Mountain (US, MCA, Acetate)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S5Z6 - Visions Of Angels (US, MCA, Acetate)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm#SING70S5Z6 - The Knife (US, MCA, Acetate) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin71.htm#SING71S1S2 - The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (UK, Charisma CB 152)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin71.htm#SING71S1S2 - The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, Promo, 6073 305)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin71.htm#SING71S3S4 - The Knife part.1 / The Knife part.2 (GER, Philips, 6073 305 |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S1S2 - White Mountain / VV.AA (Italy, Ariston, Promo, PR-22)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S1S2 - For Absent Friends / The Fountain Of Salmacis / The Musical Box (US, Charisma EP CG-EP-A/B)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S3S4 - The Fountain Of Salmacis (extract) / VV.AA . (US, Buddah, SP50)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S3S4 - Happy The Man / VV.AA. (Italy, Ariston Promo PR-35)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S5S6 - Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 181)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S5S6 - Happy The Man / Seven Stones (UK, Charisma CB181)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S7S8 - Happy The Man / Mama Weer All Crazee Now (The Slade) (Italy,Charisma Juke Box, AS 179)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S7S8 - Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Charisma 6073 316)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm#SING72S9S10 - Happy The Man / Seven Stones (Italy, Philips/Charisma 6073 316) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S1S2 - Watcher Of The Skies / Watcher Of The Skies (US, Charisma, Promo, CAR 103)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S1S2 - Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (US, Charisma, CAR 103)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S3S4 - Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, Promo, 6073 331)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S3S4 - Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (GER., Charisma, 6073 331)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S5S6 - Watcher Of The Skies / Made Milwaukee Famous (Rod Stewart) (Italy, Charisma Juke Boxe AS 216)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S5S6 - Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (Italy, Charisma 6073 331)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S7S8 - Watcher Of The Skies / Willow Farm (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 331)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S7S8 - Twilight Alehouse (UK, Charisma, Flexidisc)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S9S10 - I Know What I Like / After The Ordeal (Fra, Charisma, Promo, 6873 174)
10 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S9S10 - I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Port., Charisma, 6873 174)
11 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S11S12 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo PL, FC 26002)
12 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S11S12 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo MO, FC 26002)
13 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm#SING73S13S14 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (US., Charisma, FC 26002 |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S1S2 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo White Label, FC 26002)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S1S2 - I Know What I Like / More Fool Me (Spa.., Charisma, Promo 6832 080)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S3S4 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Center, CB 224)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S3S4 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo Full, CB 224)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S5S6 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (UK., Charisma, CB 224)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S5S6 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Italy., Charisma, 6073 347)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S7S8 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Hol., Charisma, 6073 347)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S7S8 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Promo, Charisma, SFL-1857)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S9S10 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (Jap., Charisma, SFL-1857)
10 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S9S10 - I Know What I Like / Twilight Alehouse (N.Z., Charisma, 6073 347)
11 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S11S12 - In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Test, F 22909)
12 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S11S12 - In The Beginning / Kansas City (L.H,S.) (Italy, Decca, Promo Juke Box, F 22909)
13 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S13S14 - In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca F 22909)
14 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S13S14 - Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma Promo, CB 238)
15 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S15S16 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Fra.UK, Charisma Promo, 6873 231)
16 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S15S16 - Counting Out Time / Counting Out Time (UK, Charisma , CB 238)
17 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S17S18 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Ger., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
18 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S17S18 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Port.., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
19 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S19S20 - Counting Out Time / Timore e Tremore (Mai Lai) (Italy,, Charisma Promo Juke Box, AS 283)
20 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S19S20 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Italy., Charisma,, 6073 357)
21 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S21S22 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Norv., Charisma Promo, 6073 357)
22 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm#SING74S21S22 - I Know What I Like / I Know What I Like (US., Charisma, Promo SP Blue, FC 26002) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING74S1S2 - I Know What I Like / More Fool Me / Dancing With The Moonlit Knight
(Bra., Charisma EP 6228 202)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING74S1S2 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S3S4 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (Spa., Charisma 6073 357)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S3S4 - Counting Out Time / Riding The Scree (N.Z., Charisma Promo 6073 357)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S5S6 - The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US.,ATCO Promo 45-7013)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S5S6 - The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time (US.,ATCO PL/MO/SP 45-7013)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S7S8 - The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Counting Out Time / The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging / Back In N.Y.C. (Bra.,Charisma EP 6228 203)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S7S8 - The Carpet Crawlers / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (Italy, Charisma 6073 363)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S9S10 - The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma Promo CB 251)
10 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S9S10 - The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (UK, Charisma CB 251)
11 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S11S12 - The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Australia, Charisma 6073 367)
12 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm#SING75S11S12 - The Carpet Crawlers / The Waiting Room (Port., Charisma 6073 367) |
1 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS1S2 - Carpet Crawl / Counting Out Time (Bra., Charisma 6073 374)
2 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS1S2 - A Trick Of The Tail / Carpet Crawl (Ger., Charisma 6073 379)
3 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS3S4 - I Know What I Like / Carpet Crawlers (Bra., Charisma 6073 395)
4 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS3S4 - The Silent Sun (UK, Decca Gold Flexi, SF 1471)
5 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS5S6 - In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, White Ch., F 22909)
6 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS5S6 - In The Beginning / The Serpent (Italy, Decca, Promo F 22909)
7 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS7S8 - I Know What I Like / Counting Out Time (UK, Old Rec. OG-9263 - two labels diff.)
8 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS7S8 - I Know What I Like / The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (US, Atlantic's Oldies Series, OS-13239)
9 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS9S10 - I Know What I Like (UK, CD Virgin Value 3" VVCS 10 + 3 tracks)
10 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS9S10 - Archive 1967-1975 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler G-BOX 98)
11 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS11S12 - Archive Volume 1 Sampler (UK, CD 5" Virgin Sampler PRCD 8583)
12 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS11S12 - Turn It On Again - The Hits Promo (UK, CD 5" Virgin Promo 3 tracks Sampgen8 Lc03098)
13 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS13S14 - The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (US, CD 5" Atlantic Promo PRCD 9111)
14 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS13S14 - The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Promo) (UK, CD 5" Virginc Promo 7243 896420)
15 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS15S16 - The Carpet Crawlers 1999 (Radio Edit) (UK, CD 5" Promo DJ Crawl-CDJ-1)
16 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS15S16 - Carpet Crawlers '99 (Acetate Promo) (UK, CD 5" Promo Virgin)
17 http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm#SINGMIXS17S18 - The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway / Follow You Follow Me (US, Re-released 7" Atlantic PG 102) |
| http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin68.htm - 1968 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin69.htm - 1969 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin70.htm - 1970 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin71.htm - 1971 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin72.htm - 1972 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin73.htm - 1973 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin74.htm - 1974 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensin75.htm - 1975 |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinmix.htm - Mixed |
http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinindex.htm - http://digilander.libero.it/visionofangel/Gensinindex.htm |
More than 50.. pretty lot for a Prog band that supposedly shouldn't release singles in order to be a serious band...BTW: I'm only posting the Gabriel era, imagine after Collins got the lead vocal.
Yes also had their part
Single: Something's Coming
Artist: Yes
1969 Atlantic
2091 199
1. Something's Coming
2. Dear Father
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Your Move
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
7": AT 2819
A. Your Move (3:30)
B. Clap (3:03)
Notes: Label reads "From Atlantic LP 8283 (The Yes Album)". (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004)
Single: Your Move/America
Artist: Yes
19?? Atlantic Oldies Series
7": OS-13141 double A-side
1. Your Move [Anderson] (3:30)
2. America (4:06)
Notes: Thanks to Tom Demi.
Single: Anerica
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
ATL 10226
1. America (4.06)
2. Total Mass Retain (3.16)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Yours is No Disgrace
Artist: Yes
1971 Atlantic
2091 214
1. Yours is No Disgrace (5.40)
2. Your Move (3.28)
3. Sweet Dreams (3.42)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1972 Atlantic
7": 2091 178 [Europe], AT 2854 [North America]
See: http://relayer35.com/Yescography/fragile.htm - Fragile
1. Roundabout
2. Long Distance Runaround
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers & Terry Burman.
Single: Wonderous Stories
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
ATL 10999
See: http://relayer35.com/Yescography/goingfor.htm - Going for the One
1. Wonderous Stories (3.45)
2. Parallels (5.52)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Awaken
Artist: Yes
1977 Atlantic
K 11047
See: http://relayer35.com/Yescography/goingfor.htm - Going for the One
1. Awaken pt 1 (6.40)
2. Going for the One (3.40)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Don't Kill the Whale
Artist: Yes
1978 Atlantic
K11184
See: http://relayer35.com/Yescography/tormato.htm - Tormato
1. Don't Kill the Whale
2. Abilene
Notes: Thanks to Al Spilowey.
Single: Into the Lens
Artist: Yes
1980 Atlantic
ATL 11 622
See: http://relayer35.com/Yescography/drama.htm - Drama
1. Into the Lens (I am a Camera) (3.44)
2. Does it Really Happen (6.30)
Notes: Thanks to Ruud Ermers.
Single: Roundabout
Artist: Yes
1981 Atlantic
7": PR 415 Q
A. Roundabout (7:23)
B. I've Seen All Good People (7:00)
Notes: Live tracks from http://relayer35.com/Yescography/classicy.htm - Classic Yes . (Terry Burman, 24 Jul 2004) |
We are talking about 11 singles.
We can check a lot of iconic bands and find singles.
Owner of a Lonely Heart, Follow You Follow Me and MTV happened long after the time when Prog was at its peak. I will accept that I Know What I Like may have introduced some people to Genesis, but that was released 6 months after the album hit No. 3 had the effect of boosting sales of the album, not the single itself.
Yes it was long after the album was released, but before ATTW3 there was a massive airplay of Follow You Follow Me.
In the UK in 1973 a single was 0.45 and single album 2.50 and a double was around �5.00. So, to be accurate yes it was 5 times, but comparing a single to TFTO or Lamb (as we were) then it was 10 times.
I believe we were talking about USA.
In the UK TFTO was at Number 1 for two weeks, during December 73/January 74, making it the Christmas album that year, knocking Yellow Brick Road from the top - that's a pretty mainstream achievement, especially as Brain Salad Surgery was at No.2 during the second week - TFTO remained in the Top 40 for 17 weeks, which isn't bad for a double album and better than they achieved for CTTE and Yessongs.
I believe we were talking about USA, but doesn't matter, a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
All I can say that it was different in the UK in the early to mid 70s. I have written about this in other threads on this subject, but it is difficult to comprehend just how popular and important Progressive music was to a teenager in the early 70s: record shops would have huge window displays for albums like TFTO and Focus 3; our local store reconstructed the cover for The Least We Can Do Is Wave using a real Van Der Graff generator in their window; if you bought a copy of New Musical Express, Sounds or Melody Maker in that time then Prog was just about the only music mentioned and The Old Grey Whistle Test was the TV programme to watch; the latest Prog releases were the talking point in playgrounds and youth-clubs ... even the Salvation Army in our town ran a disco every week that only played Progressive music.
Yes, UK was a different sutuation than USA and most of the rest of the world, remember that long after, Genesis had to release Three Sides Life for USA in a different version than the UK one that had 4 sides live, because the label feared that the Prog side wouldn't sell and they filled it with tracks as Paperlate.
Saturday Night Fever and Disco did not appear until 1978 and by then it was all over for Prog anyway, (even Punk was dead by 1978).
Maybe in England, but for USA and Latin America it was released in 1977 and was a phenomenom months before due to radio.
Again, MTV arrived long after the hey-day of Prog so is not relevant and in the 1970s the Grammys didn't mean very much in the UK ... even now they are only mentioned as a footnote on the News if a Brit wins one.
You keep talking about your UK universe, but check the rest of the world, even in UK, Proig was for a minority, the numbers of albums sold don't lie, lets see the best Yes albums and what BRITISH certifications they got:
|
BPI
Silver: Means 60,000 albums
Gold: Means 100,000 albums
Platinuum: Means 300,000 albums
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Silver , Fri Mar 1 1974
YES , TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS , Gold , Fri Mar 1 1974
(TFTO was the first ever album to ship GOLD under new guidelines)
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Silver , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , GOING FOR THE ONE , Gold , Mon Sep 19 1977
YES , TORMATO , Silver , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , TORMATO , Gold , Wed Sep 13 1978
YES , DRAMA , Silver , Thu Sep 11 1980
YES , YESSHOW , Silver , Thu Jan 1 1981
YES , 90125 , Silver , Wed Dec 28 1983
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Silver , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Gold , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , CLOSE TO THE EDGE , Platinum , Wed Dec 5 1984
YES , 90125 , Gold , Wed Jan 2 1985
YES , FRAGILE , Silver , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Gold , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , FRAGILE , Platinum , Thu Sep 29 1988
YES , CLASSIC , Silver , Sun Mar 1 1992
YES , THE ULTIMATE YES COLLECTION - 35TH ANNIVERSARY , Silver , Fri Aug 15 2003
|
Only Close to the Edge and Fragile have Platinum certificate (300,000 albums)
CTTE achieved Platinum only in 1984, this means they took 10 years to sell 300,000 albums. THAT'S NOTHING.
Fragile reached Platinum in 1988, theis means they took 17 years to sell 300,000 album, even worst.
I don't know the UK population, but 300,000 albums in ten and seventeen years is not worth the investment if you think only in economic yterns, now compare with some popular musicians:
Thriller by Michael Jaclkson:
| UK |
11x Platinum |
3,570,000 |
Oops I did it Again by Britney Spears:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Albums_Chart - UK Albums Chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oops%21..._I_Did_It_Again#_note-27 - [32] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Phonographic_Industry - BPI / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_UK_Charts_Company - The Official UK Charts Company |
2 |
3x platinum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oops%21..._I_Did_It_Again#_note-28 - [33] |
910,000+ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oops%21..._I_Did_It_Again#_note-29 - [ |
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiceworld_%28album%29#_note-16 - [17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
Iván
|
-------------
|
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 07:41
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:14
|
2 at most these days. More often than not far less.
|
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:22
hehehe why do some people get offended and vote for 1 or 0? jajaja YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!
-------------
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
|
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 11:41
|
Ivan: Being that you're a huge Genesis fan, as I am, I'm sure you know that they didn't exactly take those singles seriously...many were empty motions or contractual fulfillments, while the earliest ones were aimed at raising awareness for the band, especially in Italy betwenn 71/72 were they became very popular. The band weren't particularly focussed on singles (in fact, they didn't like their songs being cut up and edited), but with management, there's always a contractual obligation or some kind of outside pressure...all the same, most of these singles were released after the records and are just a footnote, meant to promote the album at the time.
I could be wrong, but to me, there's no denying the initial leap in sales that albums from Yes et al took...whether or not they sold consistently through the years, they made a big splash in the charts, and that is definately saying something about their popularity/mainstream appeal
*(Ivan, I'm curious about the geographical appeal of prog in the '70s, because you mention that it was next to unheard of in Peru, while Dean describes a proggers paradise in the UK...makes me think that prog was predominantly an Englsih-speaking movement, while the heavily promoted pop-albums you mentioned *eg Thriller* were marketed around the world to enormous audiences...and probably even bands like The Rolling Stones to a lesser extent.)
-------------
Signature Writers Guild on strike
|
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 17:19
4. Elitist enough to mock rap, "modern rock" and soul, but I still love blues rock, world, and heavy and classic rock. And classical. And jazz.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 20:09
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: If Prog artists considered singles not serious......We are before a monumental contradiction, The list of Genesis singles is incredibly extense:
|
That's was not >50 different Genesis singles - only a completist counts every edition of each single.
The famous Charisma label had found a small amount of chart success selling left-field singles (Lindisfarne and Clfford T Ward) but in the words of Tony Stratton-Smith: "Charisma, in fact, has had only one Artist and Repertoire man until this year and that was Stratton Smith himself. He signs the bands directly and takes a hearty artistic hand in determining what goes out of the office with a Charisma label on it. Singles, he says, were never Charisma's strong point simply because he saw no need for them. Charisma was selling albums in copious quantities and those albums were by groups that English and American radio chieftains saw only as album acts." ( http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm - http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm )
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I believe we were talking about USA.
|
Jimmy_row's original statement was regarding the time when Prog was at it's peak, which was from 1970 through to 1976, he made no reference to any country. I referenced the UK since that was the epicentre of the growth (and decline) of Prog Rock in the 70s...
I was not being Anglo-centric in the facts I stated - I was just reflecting what I witnessed first hand in the UK in the 1970s - you made similar statements about your personal experiences of Prog from your youth. I cannot comment on what prog was like in the USA during th 70s because I was not there and had little interest in American music at that time.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
a Gold album in UK means 100,000 copies, that's what Tales sold, at least that's the only certification they have.
Twoweeks in the charts, even in N? 1 means absolutely nothing in economic terms.
|
The World-wide status of Silver and Gold album is not related to the number of units sold, but to the percentage of the county's population that bought them. So the USA a Gold album has to sell 5 times more than the UK because the population is 5 times larger. Therefore achieving Gold in any country in the World is a comparable measure of popularity, not wealth.
US Gold = 500,000 from a population of 250,000,000 = 0.2% of population
UK Gold = 100,000 from a population of 50,000,000 = 0.2% of population
So, yes you can make more money by going Gold in the USA, which is why every artist on the planet wants to be big in the USA - but you can make exactly the same amount of money by going Gold in 6 or 7 European countries. To use a modern statistic - Dream Theatre have sold 6 million albums, but only 2 million of those were in the USA - i.e they sell twice as many albums outside their own country.
(btw: Two weeks at No. 1 over the Christmas period means quite a lot as this is the time of high album sales and is equivalent in sales terms to several weeks at No.1 at any other time of the year)
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Spice World by the Spice Girls:
| United Kingdom |
1 (3 Weeks) |
5x Platinum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiceworld_%28album%29#_note-16 - [17] |
1,500,000+ |
There's no comparison, what is manistream and what is not Dean.
|
Pre-teen fads like the Spice Girls and Britney Spears are exceptions and do not really relate to Mainstream success either - the vast majority of Mainstream artists sell considerably less than that.
The general trend is exponential with all the artists around the middle to lower regions of the charts selling similar volumes, which is why Unsigned bands can find their downloads in the top-40 and Marillion can release 23 singles over the past 24 years, all of which chart.
-------------
What?
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 00:20
darqdean wrote:
[
That's was not >50 different Genesis singles - only a completist counts every edition of each single.
The famous Charisma label had found a small amount of chart success selling left-field singles (Lindisfarne and Clfford T Ward) but in the words of Tony Stratton-Smith: "Charisma, in fact, has had only one Artist and Repertoire man until this year and that was Stratton Smith himself. He signs the bands directly and takes a hearty artistic hand in determining what goes out of the office with a Charisma label on it. Singles, he says, were never Charisma's strong point simply because he saw no need for them. Charisma was selling albums in copious quantities and those albums were by groups that English and American radio chieftains saw only as album acts." ( http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm - http://www.charismalabel.com/tpcmarticle.htm )
Use the argument you want, Genesis released more than 100 singles along their whole career.
And you forgotten Yes, they released at least one single per album in ther peak.
Jethro Tull has a lot of Singles, Focus has singles, Manfred Mann's Earth Band have singles...The fact is that they also tried to reach the mainstream market unsuccesfullt
Jimmy_row's original statement was regarding the time when Prog was at it's peak, which was from 1970 through to 1976, he made no reference to any country. I referenced the UK since that was the epicentre of the growth (and decline) of Prog Rock in the 70s...
We know that UK market worjked in a different way with Prog, not enough to be a opopular genre or part of the mainstream, but it was essentially a British movement.
I was not being Anglo-centric in the facts I stated - I was just reflecting what I witnessed first hand in the UK in the 1970s - you made similar statements about your personal experiences of Prog from your youth. I cannot comment on what prog was like in the USA during th 70s because I was not there and had little interest in American music at that time.
I can't comment both I lived a year in Birmingham Alabbama, and the situation was similar to Perú, I hardly knew 10 persons who ever heard about Prog, the difference is that you always found a copy of a Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull album, but never moire that 2 or 3
The World-wide status of Silver and Gold album is not related to the number of units sold, but to the percentage of the county's population that bought them. So the USA a Gold album has to sell 5 times more than the UK because the population is 5 times larger. Therefore achieving Gold in any country in the World is a comparable measure of popularity, not wealth.
US Gold = 500,000 from a population of 250,000,000 = 0.2% of population
UK Gold = 100,000 from a population of 50,000,000 = 0.2% of population
That's why I'm using BPI certification for UK albums and not RIAA.
but despite this fact, I can say without doubts that 100,000 albums in 14 years is NOTHING in UK, any POP or mainstream band sells more in the first six months.
So, yes you can make more money by going Gold in the USA, which is why every artist on the planet wants to be big in the USA - but you can make exactly the same amount of money by going Gold in 6 or 7 European countries. To use a modern statistic - Dream Theatre have sold 6 million albums, but only 2 million of those were in the USA - i.e they sell twice as many albums outside their own country.
Please, don't change the subject, I'm comparing albums sold in UK all with the same parameters, 100,000 albums in one year is considered a poor sale for any mainstream band.
Dream theater BTW is an exception because they got the Prog and the Metal audience.
(btw: Two weeks at No. 1 over the Christmas period means quite a lot as this is the time of high album sales and is equivalent in sales terms to several weeks at No.1 at any other time of the year)
But still they only got a gold certification during their first year, this means 100,000 albums in one year, normally a POP band with this sales would be put to sleep.
Pre-teen fads like the Spice Girls and Britney Spears are exceptions and do not really relate to Mainstream success either - the vast majority of Mainstream artists sell considerably less than that.
Do you wat more examples? I won't mention again the 11 Platinum albums of Thriller and the 3 platinum of Britney, I would go exclusively with no pre teen bands
Rolling Stones in UK:
Tally [U.K. LPs]: 4,220,000 certified units
SILVER: 23
GOLD: 21 (tied at #1 with the Beatles among all music groups)
PLATINUM: 4
And they are not Pre Teen Pop
Fleetwood Mac Rumours:
| BPI – UK |
Gold |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_23 - May 23 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977 - 1977 |
| BPI – UK |
Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_9 - November 9 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977 - 1977 |
In the year of release they got BPI Platinum Certification, but that's nt all.
| BPI – UK |
10X Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_28 - January 28 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000 - 2000 |
That's not a Pre teen group neither
Cat Stevens is not mentioned by BPI but this numbers may guive you an idea:
| RIAA – U.S. |
Gold |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_12 - May 12 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971 - 1971 |
| RIAA – U.S. |
Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_30 - January 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001 - 2001 |
| RIAA – U.S. |
Double Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_30 - January 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001 - 2001 |
| RIAA – U.S. |
Triple Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_30 - January 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001 - 2001 |
Madonna: Like a Prayer:
| United Kingdom |
1 |
4x Platinum |
1,200,000+ |
Hotel California:
5 Platinum Certification by BPI
The Joshua's Tree (U2)
| United Kingdom |
1 |
6x Platinum |
1,800,000+ |
REM - Out of Time:
| BPI – UK |
Triple Platinum |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1 - March 1 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992 - 1992 |
In one year got triple Platinum in UK
So please, the numbers speak by themselves, mainsteream sales are incredibly superiotr to Prog sales , so we can't compare them.
The general trend is exponential with all the artists around the middle to lower regions of the charts selling similar volumes, which is why Unsigned bands can find their downloads in the top-40 and Marillion can release 23 singles over the past 24 years, all of which chart.
Niumbers don't lie, I made a list of serious bands. not pre teens, no Rap, etc, only recognized mainstream artists and the difference with Prog is amazing, even in England.
Iván |
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 00:33
jimmy_row wrote:
Ivan: Being that you're a huge Genesis fan, as I am, I'm sure you know that they didn't exactly take those singles seriously...many were empty motions or contractual fulfillments, while the earliest ones were aimed at raising awareness for the band, especially in Italy betwenn 71/72 were they became very popular. The band weren't particularly focussed on singles (in fact, they didn't like their songs being cut up and edited), but with management, there's always a contractual obligation or some kind of outside pressure...all the same, most of these singles were released after the records and are just a footnote, meant to promote the album at the time.
You are right, but it was said that Prog bands didn't released singles, I could ,mention most of the famous bands releasing singles.
I could be wrong, but to me, there's no denying the initial leap in sales that albums from Yes et al took...whether or not they sold consistently through the years, they made a big splash in the charts, and that is definately saying something about their popularity/mainstream appeal
But again, when you go to the cold numbers, the difference with real mainstream is incredible.
*(Ivan, I'm curious about the geographical appeal of prog in the '70s, because you mention that it was next to unheard of in Peru, while Dean describes a proggers paradise in the UK...makes me think that prog was predominantly an Englsih-speaking movement, while the heavily promoted pop-albums you mentioned *eg Thriller* were marketed around the world to enormous audiences...and probably even bands like The Rolling Stones to a lesser extent.)
In Perú uin the 70's most albums were in English, mostly Rock. Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Kansas, Queen, Slade, etc sold well.
But Prog was hardly sold, and that's not only in Perú, as I said I lived in USA and the situation was not that different.
Cheers
Iván
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: January 08 2008 at 10:13
Well thats a hard question i whuld gues only around 30-40% of my music collection culd be described as prog and much of it on the edge, the rest is all types of diffrent music. But yes i do consider prog to be one of the best types of music i like otherwise i whuldetn be here whuld i ? a 6-7 maybe. Since im still pretty new to prog and so far mostly got the big bands. But one day i hope to be a 100% prog nutt like the rest of you.. 
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Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: January 09 2008 at 08:54
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: January 09 2008 at 09:15
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 07:40
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I was really intrigued by the discussion between Ivan_Melgar and Reality at the end of last year. They both had a point but in fact I agree with a lot Ivan says. This is our love and let the rappers and dancefreaks have fun on their sites.
There's no reason to be ashamed to be a progger because eventhough most prog is hardly known with the general public and therefore not on top of the chain I believe it's their loss and they are missing out. Most of the general public is a bit shallow with music and they don't want to make an extra effort for it. Because after all prog doesn't come easy to you. It's a lot more "easy" to just listen to the charts and go with the flow. But if I listen to the charts occasionally I pity the people who love it. 90% is rubbish to me and I can't bear to listen to it.
Probably I'm missing out on real life then, well so be it. Maybe it's presumptuous but it's how I feel it and if it's immature: again, I can't help it.
So, yes I'm almost a hundred percent progger and I'm fine with it. Still I wouldn't give myself a 9 or 10 in this poll because I'm too limited in my favourite subdivisions of prog. I don't even like half of the subdivisions and there are even a few I almost hate. So I can't call myself a true progger over the whole spectrum and because of that I would say 8.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 09:41
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 11:15
1 for prog elitism, 10 for music elitism. Good music is good music, regardless of genre.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Posted By: EnglishAssassin
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 21:25
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1: I'm a rock snob, but not a prog snob.
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