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Seyo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 07:31
"Christian prog" is contradictio in adjecto as well as "secular prog"!
If an artist uses christian or any other religious themes, ideas, concepts or imageries in its work for artistic purposes, it does not make it "christian"..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:00
Originally posted by Seyo Seyo wrote:

"Christian prog" is contradictio in adjecto as well as "secular prog"!
If an artist uses christian or any other religious themes, ideas, concepts or imageries in its work for artistic purposes, it does not make it "christian"..

Hmm, a contradictio in adjecto? That would mean the two concepts Christianity and Progressive Rock are mutually exclusive; this I think is not the case. I think it is more an enallage, a term that (among other things) describes phrases like "a four-storied landlord" when actually "landlord of a four-storied house" is meant.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:35
Perhaps I used a bit awkward terminology. What I meant to say is that the use of adjectives is not proper in this case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:36
Glass Hammer -- Anything from Chronomotree onward. I find many music/lyrics spiritual, even when the artist didn't intend it. This, my friend, is the true definition of art.

A really interesting set of CDs to get are a couple from Vangelis:
1) Aphrodite's Child -- 666. This is an album that is based on St. John's Revelation of the Apocalypse. This is NOT easy listening though. The book of Revelation is a very scary intense book and this album catches it well; it is strange, intriguing and sometimes uncomfortable. But stays true to the book. If you want to get the farthest away from preachy lyrics but still remain spiritual, this one's for you. Not for the thin skinned tho.

2) Vangelis' Heaven and Hell: A mostly instrumental album doing a glorious job and the dichotomy of heaven and hell. With beautiful lyrics by Jon Anderson (who's work with Yes and personal work are very spiritual for me).

Hope this helps.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 09:51
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

As an observation, it is interesting to contrast this thread with the current one about "foreign" vocals.
 
There the consensus is that the lyrics are largely irrelevant, here for some they clearly matter a lot.
 
I made this same observation and was considering posting something of a similar nature,  but instead will just quote Easy Livin'.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 10:42
After having listened to the great The Power To Believe album I asked myself if Robert Fripp is a religious guy or maybe Adrian Belew (wohever wrote the lyrics) because of the whole
She carries me through days of apathy [...] - The Power To Believe
thing.

Any ideas?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 10:52
Glass Harp is another Christian prog band that put out 3 albums in the early seventies. I believe their first was either 69 or 70.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 11:52
Originally posted by cacha71 cacha71 wrote:

Don't laugh but a lot of Chis de Burgh's earlier stuff is prog influenced and inspired by Christianity, before he went wishy-washy mainstream.  He had a fairly good concept album called "Crusader" which you may want to check out.
agreed!  and "The Getaway" was very good too.  Nothing as unctuous as the lady in red there.  But Crusader for the christian themes
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:02
I'll admit Im christian (on my birth cetificate) but I dont go to church and at the moment im abit up and down with religion especially with all the 'religious wars' going on at this moment i.e. Iraq and fighting Islam (all Bull in my eyes, christians, musilims and jews all come from abraham so whats the problem?) but dont get me started, BUT I do feel here in this country under all these PC Liberal lefties the C of E is being forced out and smothered as not to offend everyone whos not white or christian and that is wrong we are a C of E country and should stay that way we have been since the mid 1530's!!!! All Im saying is 'When in Rome...'!!!!
 
Anyway I like abit of christian prog and can give you a couple of bands that are in my collection (all three to be precise), try out:
 
Saviour Machine - awsome prog metal, Eric Clayton has a fantastic voice, their lyrical content is mainly the book of revalations but done in a cool non-forceing upon us way.
 
Narnia - another quality prog metal band from germany, they have helped Eric Clayton with Saviour Machine on the last three/four albums: The Legend Series after Jeff Clayton, the bassist and drummer lefter after 'Saviour Machine II'. Very DT like at times but done in a non-DT way.
 
Orphaned Land - My Favourite band ever!!!!! Saw them last year at the first PPUK and was hooked from then on. They hail from Israel and my best way to describe them is Opeth go Middle-Eastern, they sing in Jewish, Latin, Islam and English, their lyrical content is very far and wide but mainly along the lines of how the big three are all the same, worship the same god and should all get along, their new album 'Mabool' is based upon Noah and the flood with a wierd sub story of how all the 3 relgions came to be. All VERY VERY cool!
 
In fact why are OL classed as post-metal now? They are an extreme/tech-metal band like Opeth!!!!!! And by the way DSO are not extreme/tech metal they are more avant-garde metal/post metal!!!!!!!    


Edited by Space Dimentia - December 18 2007 at 12:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:17

Mickstafa  wrote:

Quote


A really interesting set of CDs to get are a couple from Vangelis:


1) Aphrodite's Child -- 666. This is an album that is based on St. John's Revelation of the Apocalypse. This is NOT easy listening though. The book of Revelation is a very scary intense book and this album catches it well; it is strange, intriguing and sometimes uncomfortable. But stays true to the book. If you want to get the farthest away from preachy lyrics but still remain spiritual, this one's for you. Not for the thin skinned tho.


2) Vangelis' Heaven and Hell: A mostly instrumental album doing a glorious job and the dichotomy of heaven and hell. With beautiful lyrics by Jon Anderson (who's work with Yes and personal work are very spiritual for me).

 

None of this albums fall in the category of Christian Prog, which is a derivation of Christian Rock that means Rock used as an instrument to transmit the Christian message.

 

Aphrodite’s Child are hardly trying to make evangelism, they are simply making a concept album about one of the most controversial books of the Bible, they are not asking anybody to believe, they are simply describing a book, that for some of us may be holy and for others pure fantasy.

 

If they made a Concept album about Harry Potter hardly anybody (except the fundamentalists) would believe they are promoting witchcraft.

 

Heaven and Hell is even less Christian exclusively, because this two concepts are present in many religions, Vangelis is only telling his visions about Heaven (Valhalla, Stobokor of the Klingons LOL or whatever you want to call it) and Hell or Hades.

 

Please it’s 90% instrumental, how can you give a specific message about Chtritianity without using words?

 

Now, both albums are outstanding, there we agree.

 

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 18 2007 at 12:18
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:33
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

  there is no duty to share your faith.. only LIVE by it...  
 
WooHoo! Total agreement with that.
 
Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to proclaim your beliefs in music, go ahead. I probably won't buy it, not that it matters. Does it make Prog worse? Well, to me, yes. I can't stand Neal Morse's pro-Christian rants, and that is a real shame because the music is decent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:53
I just don't think any subject should be blacklisted, seems close-minded to me. Eh, whatever, to each his own I guess. It just seems that much of prog is about open-mindedness, so saying that Christian,Buddhist,Satanist,etc messages are to be excluded from the "good" category flies in the face of prog itself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:16
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the band echolyn. Much of their stuff have Christian and Christian-cultural references. For example, the "Letters" suite from echolyn's As the World album is based on a short book in popular theology by C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:22
By living it you would be sharing it naturally and that would come across in almost everything you say or do. I think it would be so hard to separate it and then put on the secular hat per say. 
 
Art and religious or spiritual expression has been going on for a long time.  Bach in music Da Vinci and others in paint and sculpture.  Not all of these are believers but they chose to make some statement about religion or spirituality in their art.  So if it works that way I don't have a problem with it coming from a believer's point of view also. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:50
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

one of this albums fall in the category of Christian Prog, which is a derivation of Christian Rock that means Rock used as an instrument to transmit the Christian message.


I disagree; The music that relates to Christianity (or any other spirituality) does not have to be evangelical. Chris Squire's new Christmas album is Christian in that it is comprised of traditional Christian hymns, but they aren't evangelical.



Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Please it’s 90% instrumental, how can you give a specific message about Chtritianity without using words?


Wakeman's Christmas album is all instrumental and is not evangelical.


The albums I mentioned (666 and Heaven and Hell) obviously are about Christian (or otherwise religious) themes, thus I think they are appropriate to mention. An album about the book of Revelation is interesting for many reasons, one of which could be a spiritual connection that people, such as I, have with them.


I understood this thread to be about prog music that can relate to Christianity and not "praise prog."


On a completely personal level, I even relate some albums such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, Going for the One and Olias of Sunhillow as relating to my Christian perspective.


My termite inspector, during his inspection said, "well you've set a record! you are the only house I've been to that has a copy of Olias of Sunhillow out" (I have an album collage on a wall). He says that he interprets the Moorglade as the Ark and Olias as Noah.


This is the beautiful thing about art and music -- the meaning is often in the interpretation regardless of intention from the artist.



Edited by mickstafa - December 18 2007 at 13:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 14:03

I agree with you, most "mainstream Christian" music is really poor quality, and despite myself agreeing with the message, I can't listen to it.  Sharing particular beliefs with artists does seem to make a listening experience a little more deep, but I don't find it mandatory.  I love U2, and I can tell their faith is evident in their lyrics, but it doesn't smack of evangelical obsession (i.e. preaching) like mainstream Christian music.  Another non-prog band in a similar vein that I like is Norma Jean (math-core, very disorienting stuff, recommended Thumbs%20Up), and I'm embarassed that I still haven heard any Sufjan Stevens yet Embarrassed.  (I'll probably go after work and get Illionoise if I can find it.)

I find most prog to be ambivalent to my faith.  I do find some lyrical bents to be irritating, though (like occasional Tool lyrics for instance), but it's nothing uncommon, so it doesn't really offend me or anything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 16:47
Originally posted by mickstafa mickstafa wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

one of this albums fall in the category of Christian Prog, which is a derivation of Christian Rock that means Rock used as an instrument to transmit the Christian message.


I disagree; The music that relates to Christianity (or any other spirituality) does not have to be evangelical. Chris Squire's new Christmas album is Christian in that it is comprised of traditional Christian hymns, but they aren't evangelical.

 
Mickstafa, Christian Prog as christian Rock is understood as an alternative form of Rock that fights against the supposedly terrible messages of Rock with transmiting the word of Christ, it's clearly described by several groups:
 
Some in favour, to the point that they say we must throw out secular music.
 
Quote

Music is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. Take for instance a scalpel. In the hands of surgeon it can save a life from death. In the hands of a killer the same scalpel can murder someone. Is the scalpel itself good or evil? No it is neither. It is just a tool. So in the hands of who posses it and uses it determines the effect that it has. Rock n Roll is not satanic in itself. It is a tool used by the devil to deceive millions of people. It is powerful and emotional. It brings out strong opinions in everyone. Christian Rock n Roll on the other hand is not good or evil it is a tool used by the church to reach people young and old with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It sways people to live for Jesus and to worship him in a way that is relevant to today's society. It is not a sell out. God never called us to be like the status quo. He asks us to be who we were created to be. God looks on the heart, not on the appearance. What matters is where we are at with Him.

To those who think secular (without God) rock music in the world is OK. Watch out. The devil knows what makes us tick and he will use every tool he can to get us away from living for God. If it compels you to live for Jesus then go for it. If it doesn't then throw it out! A good test is to ask yourself if Jesus would listen to it with you. If he wouldn't then make a decision to please God not yourself.
 
 
Some against to the point that they accuse it to be as satanic as secular Rock:
 
Quote

- Christian Rock?, by Ric Llewellyn, published by Fundamental Evangelistic Association: This tract carefully details the Biblical screens any music must pass before it can be labeled as "Christian" (Eph. 5:18,19; Col. 3:16); i.e., the music must contain correct doctrine, and (a) its lyrics should be edifying, spiritually oriented, clear, conforming to biblical truth, and point our focus to Jesus Christ, (b) its score (the arrangement of the musical notes) should not overshadow the message conveyed by the lyrics, but should compliment it, and (c) its character (the "attitudes" in the music and of the performers) should be consistent with the purity of the message it claims to convey (reverence, worshipful, etc.). (Each of the above screens must stand on its own; i.e., one "good" aspect of the music's nature cannot sanctify any of the others.) (Please refer to Eph. 5:18,19 and Col. 3:16 at the end of this report.)

(a) Lyrics - Our spiritual songs must be sufficiently clear so as to convey the truth plainly, and must be consistent with biblical revelation (i.e., sound doctrine)-the words should focus upon the Lord Jesus Christ and encourage practical submission to God's order in all our personal affairs. Most contemporary Christian music can be rejected on the basis of lyrics alone-even when the lyrics are audibly clear, the predominance of false doctrine and/or the shallow view of the person and work of Jesus Christ is often appalling.

(b) Score - The meaning of the word psalms originally denoted a striking or twitching with the fingers (on musical strings); only later did it come to mean a sacred song sung to musical accompaniment (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). Our psalms, or the arrangement of the musical notes, is a vital ingredient of the all-encompassing term we call "music." This is because it is the area in which we are usually the most ignorant; i.e., medical research clearly supports the contention that musical tones and rhythms in and of themselves (i.e., without lyrics) can cause physical and "emotional" reactions over which the listener may have little or no control. Since the score of contemporary Christian rock music, with its syncopation and slurring of notes, is virtually indistinguishable from its secular counterpart, one has to wonder if spirituality is being eroded and carnality is being propagated. (One should always assess "Christian" music thusly: does it stir the flesh to "boogie," or the spirit to praise the Lord?)

(c) Character - Our hymns, or the character of the music, is its most obscure component. The character of much of what is called "Christian" music may best be characterized as charismatic, irreverent, universalist, socialist utopian idealistic, superficial religiousness, neo-evangelical, expressionistic, ostentatious, or in a myriad of other contexts (e.g.; What is the character of the music at a so-called Christian rock concert when whatever message is presented is punctuated by screaming guitars, smoke bombs, and a general atmosphere of frivolity?) And because the character of the music is not always readily apparent to the listener, it can have the most insidious effect on believers; i.e., tolerance or acceptance of false doctrine can arise from constant subjection to deficient and improper attitudes in music. The character of "Christian" music is easily adopted by listeners, which can then draw them away from the firm foundation of the Word. Music worthy of the name "Christian" ought to stimulate and simulate emotions compatible with true spirituality-the appropriate response to God and His Word.

 
But both agree it's a method of evengelism and worst a TOOL,
 
This can't be denied, that's the esense, and it's known by everybody.

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Please it’s 90% instrumental, how can you give a specific message about Chtritianity without using words?


Wakeman's Christmas album is all instrumental and is not evangelical.

 
Wakeman is one of the most mature Christian authors, he doesn't preach, he plays secular Prog, the album is only a commercial carrols album.
 
And precisely, it's not evangelical because it has no words, he's not trying to convince anybody, can't be considered Christian Rock or Prog.

The albums I mentioned (666 and Heaven and Hell) obviously are about Christian (or otherwise religious) themes, thus I think they are appropriate to mention. An album about the book of Revelation is interesting for many reasons, one of which could be a spiritual connection that people, such as I, have with them.

 
Do you know that 666 was banned by radical Christians for two years and onlty could be released after the band had already split?
 
Do you know that some Christuians threatened labels with a bouycott if they released the album?
 
Please, 666 is a narration of a Book that for us is holy but it's only a narration they don't ask ´people to believe uin it, they even said this album was conceived under the influence of Sahlep (A non alcoholic beverage) and not conceived under the influence of God.
 
So it's not a Christian Rock album, they never tried to do Evangelism, it's a conceptual album about a controvesial book and nothing else.

 

I understood this thread to be about prog music that can relate to Christianity and not "praise prog."

 
Then you're wrong, Christian Rock is praising Rock, check any page of Christian Rock and you will find.


On a completely personal level, I even relate some albums such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, Going for the One and Olias of Sunhillow as relating to my Christian perspective.

 
Please Tales has absolutely no relation with Christianity, it's about the four Shastric Scriptures, you would probably be excomunicated by most Christian Churches trying to relate it with Christianity (As a fact I seen it in at least one of the multiple Christian black lists that are all over the net),
 
Jon Anderson is not Chtristian, he's a spiritual person and that's different from being part of a formal religion as he says in an interview:

Quote

Q- ...though they're not religious, and you recently had a go at religion, in "Buddha Song".

J.A.: It's a song that happened. I was driving around listening to this Christian station here, and I was thinking, "Why don't they sing about Buddha? Why don't they sing about Mohammed?" So I decided to write a song about everybody.

Q- Where does your spirituality come from?
 
JA-I think we all have the same spirituality deep inside and we grow to learn more about it all the time, and we try very hard to become better people as we grow. We search all the time for the truth. We learn more about the world and we can't have thoughts like, "We are better than them" or "They are not good enough for God". This is very bad way of thinking, you know?
 
 
 
I believe his beliefs would be described as new Age spirituality, highly condemned by most Christian Churches.

My termite inspector, during his inspection said, "well you've set a record! you are the only house I've been to that has a copy of Olias of Sunhillow out" (I have an album collage on a wall). He says that he interprets the Moorglade as the Ark and Olias as Noah.

 
Well, that's why there are more than 30,000 Christian confessions, because everybody interprets things as they want.

This is the beautiful thing about art and music -- the meaning is often in the interpretation regardless of intention from the artist.

 
That's called misinterpretation, trying to relate everything with a formal religion, it's like saying Living in Beirut by Roger Waters is a pro Bush song.
 
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not an atheist or Agnostic, my beliefs on Catholiism are strong and I'm the first one to defend them and the ones of every religious person in every thread it's required, but IMHO Christian Rock is an attempt of brainwashing kids with a subliminal or direct message and that, despite how positive is the message, is wrong for me.
 
Man needs free will, needs to live a religious and secular life, one shouldn't invade the limits of the other, I don't like Sola Scriptura because of the anti Catholic message, but i don't care enough for Christian Rock to even review it.
 
Iván

 
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 17:40
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Just because some Christians are blind, bigoted, fools doesn't mean all are. I'd wager that goes the same for Christian musicians.
 
It's true that's why i believe that Rock or Prog with Christian, Catholic or Jewish messages is not the best option, because it's being used as an instrument to convert kids with messages.
 
The same opinion I have for Satanic messages or for that band that we were shown some time ago praisingg Bush.
 
Music as an expression of your spirituality is great but when it's so specific that tries to gain followers without their concious will is wrong.
 
I don't want a Catholic who is converted because he heard a tune that he liked, that guy is not a real Catholic, most surely a lost kid following anything that he will be offered and who will change as fast as he was converted.
 
In the same way I believe in free music, not in one that says that they carry the only truth and the rest are wrong.
 
I share the same respect for a Catholic, Baptist or Mormon Church as I also respect a Sinagogue and a Mosque, this doesn't mean I'm less Catholic, but it means I believe all persons are entitled to believe in the God their parents taught them, so spirituality in music is OK, but the more specefic you get, the closer to fanatism and bigotry you are.
 
Music as a tool ceases to be music to turn into propaganda and is against the freedom of art.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:06
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Wakeman is one of the most mature Christian authors, he doesn't preach, he plays secular Prog, the album is only a commercial carrols album.
 
And precisely, it's not evangelical because it has no words, he's not trying to convince anybody, can't be considered Christian Rock or Prog.


Try reading the liner notes in this CD. He precisely says the album is NON-commercial variations on traditional Christian hymns, for Christians. He is very clear that the album is supposed to be non-commercial and is meant to be a true spiritual album about the event that is at the center of Christianity, the birth of Jesus. He is very clear that it is a christian record.

So if you can't call that a Christian album, then I don't know what is. And if you recognize that it is a Christian album after reading his liner notes, then your argument falls apart.

Evangelism is not a requirement for prog with Christianity in it. Nothing more for me to say on this subject.

Anyhow the topic starter wanted some Christian inspired albums. We gave him some suggestions. Let's leave it at that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:17
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Just because some Christians are blind, bigoted, fools doesn't mean all are. I'd wager that goes the same for Christian musicians.
 
It's true that's why i believe that Rock or Prog with Christian, Catholic or Jewish messages is not the best option, because it's being used as an instrument to convert kids with messages.
 
The same opinion I have for Satanic messages or for that band that we were shown some time ago praisingg Bush.
 
Music as an expression of your spirituality is great but when it's so specific that tries to gain followers without their concious will is wrong.
 
I don't want a Catholic who is converted because he heard a tune that he liked, that guy is not a real Catholic, most surely a lost kid following anything that he will be offered and who will change as fast as he was converted.
 
In the same way I believe in free music, not in one that says that they carry the only truth and the rest are wrong.
 
I share the same respect for a Catholic, Baptist or Mormon Church as I also respect a Sinagogue and a Mosque, this doesn't mean I'm less Catholic, but it means I believe all persons are entitled to believe in the God their parents taught them, so spirituality in music is OK, but the more specefic you get, the closer to fanatism and bigotry you are.
 
Music as a tool ceases to be music to turn into propaganda and is against the freedom of art.
 
Iván 
Wow, verry convincing.
 
That last statement made me think about RIO and especially Henry Cow with their "Art as a hammer" mentality, I know your not really a RIO fan anyway but does that take away from the music for you? Or do you just find it annoying?
 
 
 
P.S.
 Personally I'm not a fan of christian music as it feels like its only for "insiders" already in the faith and I am left on the outside and can't connect. However I love how Kansas shows searching because I really can connect with that.
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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