Christian prog vs secular prog
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Topic: Christian prog vs secular prog
Posted By: profanatio
Subject: Christian prog vs secular prog
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:08
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Maybe there was already a thread on this and I dont know it. I happen to be a christian and take my faith very seriously but I do not pound people over the head with it. Of course as you would guess knowing my taste in music, I despise mainstream christian music. I certainly agree with the message but I'm far from satisfied with the music and all of the "Praise the Lords" that pepper the music lyrically. A lot of christians love it. I dont.
Someone at my church recently mentioned to me that a lot of the prog I listen to can tend to lyrically be very questioning of the existence of God if not downright hostile to the idea. Of course I already knew that and some groups can be atheistic lyrically as well and dont even trying to hide it. Thats ok. If I love the music I can certainly live with whatever one wants to believe. Even ELP (Gasp!) have written lyrics that I wouldnt have done. "The Only Way" comes to mind and of course from 1st Impression Part 1 comes " Not content with that with our hands behind our backs we pull Jesus from a hat get in to that get in to that." Not something my pastor would smile upon!! Anyway, I didnt know until joining PA that there are actually christian prog bands. I'll make no judgments until I actually hear some of them (Any recommendations?) but I do know that no matter how much they glorify God lyrically, if I dont like the music I wont listen to it. I hope its every bit as powerful as the best stuff from Crimson or ELP. I'm a pretty thick skinned guy and dont get offended easily at all so please dont hold back on your responses to this subject. What are your thoughts about Christian prog or any kind of prog for that matter that lyrically takes a religious point of view or even a strong political point of view. Do they have a duty to share their faith in their music or should it be left out completely? ------------- Mike |
Replies:
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:11
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you don't have to worry too much as the majority of prog bands' lyrics don't mean diddly although if you want Biblically influenced, Supper's Ready is about the Book of Revelations ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:13
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pfff... I'll give the straight answer and the correct one...
there is no duty to share your faith.. only LIVE by it... and it should
not be left out either. It is the choice of the arist. whether to
bring his faith in the music or not.. and of the listener as to
whether they want to listen to it or not.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:18
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The obvious recommendation would be Neal Morse since he is probably the best known Christian prog musician. I posted a link to a website a couple of months back to a compilation CD that was made by various Christian prog bands. I don't recall where it is now. I suppose I can look for it again. Another decent Christian band is Ajalon, which is Randy George's band (he plays on the Neal Morse albums).
I think that the stronger the musician's belief is in their faith the stronger they feel the need to include this in their body of work. I'm generally not a religious person, but for the most part don't have a problem with the message. ------------- 
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:19
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Well, then I'll give the other correct answer; as a musician and artist, feel free to write about any subject and for any audience you like. ;P but however much I respect creative direction, I do get a little uncomfortable with lyrics full of praise (and Satan turns me off just as much as Christ or Mohammad) but thus far, any time I've heard music with that sort of message I've hated the music separately, too. Glass Hammer and Neal Morse have an unpleasant sheen to their music and I couldn't appreciate it even if I was more of a pious person...
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:20
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The website was easier to find that I thought. http://www.cprogrock.com/ - http://www.cprogrock.com/ -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:24
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Personally, I'd rather music didn't have too strong a religious or political content, since any kind of preaching gets on my nerves after a while. I consider myself an agnostic (though I was raised a Catholic like most Italians), though I have rather strong political opinions I won't go into now. However, I don't mind religious messages in the music I listen to, as long as they are not overdone, and don't sound like attempts at 'converting' the listener (btw, I see militant atheism as a form of 'religion' trying to convince the listener - this is why I don't care for the lyrics to "The Only Way"). Unfortunately, as far as I know a lot of so-called "Christian Prog" (or rock, for that matter) is quite preachy in content. Some of the lyrics penned by Kerry Livgren irritate me somehow, and I've always avoided Neal Morse's solo output for the same reason - though I realise I am prejudiced in that. I would like to see bands and artists that explore the spiritual aspect of life in a more nuanced way, without ever descending into overt preaching - though I understand that it is a fine balance that is not very easy to reach. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:25
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I leave this thread here meanwhile, but if religion becomes the the main theme of the discussion, it may sit better in either the general music lounge or a non-music area. I'm not sure at this stage that the original question is specific to prog.
That aside, if you listen to Greg Lake's later track "Closer to believing" on Works Vol 1 Prof, you'll find that he was perhaps having a change of heart.
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Posted By: Rubidium
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:44
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If you're looking for Christian prog, the obvious place to start is Neal Morse. Not only are his lyrics Christian in nature, but he's also one of the most talented modern prog composers. Other bands that often mentioned are Glass Hammer, later Kansas, Proto-Kaw, and Salem Hill. Ajalon is a band that doesn't get mentioned much, but they have produced some quality music. But for my money, the best (aside from Neal Morse, of course) is Akacia. All three of their albums are wonderful, but I think the best is their second album, The Brass Serpent. And the title track is over 36 minutes long! What could be better? |
Posted By: Bellringer
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:47
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Old band called Torman Maxt. I think they're listed here. There're at least a couple more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. ------------- Psalm 69:6 |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 15:56
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You will find Religion in prog music and it's message of good fighting evil has appeared in many "Epics". As an atheist and a staunch scientist, I suggest you read the works of Richard Dawkins and you will find that the religious themes are just as much fantasy as the Lord of the Rings (for example). In a week and a bit I shall be feasting to celebrate the coming of spring, a feast which was hijacked by the christians and which was being celebrated thousands of years before the three main theist religions were "invented".............. ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 16:03
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The music should be good and the lyrics shouldn't be hateful. That's all I have to say on the subject.
This will probably get locked, BTW. |
Posted By: Zwerg Bart
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 16:04
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It really depends how it's done for me...
I don't mind religious themes as long as the music is good, but there is a point at which lyrics can go overboard. For instance, I am a huge fan of metal (prog and otherwise). Of course many metal bands present lyrics from the evil perspective, but usually in a narrative way, which is fine. Then there are some of the black metal bands which advocate the erradication of organized religion (Christianity in particular) which I find distasteful, even if it's only an image the band wants to portray. Frankly it's boring if that's all the band has to say. The same would go for preachy Christian bands. ------------- "Freud's cranium is a snail!" - Dali |
Posted By: Lofcaudio
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 16:36
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In answer to the original post:
Though not quite as progressive, but with some prog metal tendencies:
You really can't go wrong with Neal Morse, in my opinion, as his music is some of the best regardless of lyrical content. |
Posted By: profanatio
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:09
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Wow.. thanks everybody for the great responses and the recommendations. I've written them all down and will be checking them out. I know a girl at my church who loves all of the modern day "preachy" christian bands. This will be a great way for me to introduce her to prog. Within a month I'll have her listening to Devil Doll. Ha ha! ------------- Mike |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:17
I go to a Christian university, and have to go to chapel 30 times a semester and get all sorts of things thrown at me (metaphorically). I love the people and everyone is really nice, but I am totally unsure of the existence of God (even after a semester of philosophy) and am more open to all sorts of perspectives. Except Christian music, which by and large--from experience--I hate. Now, there are prog bands with Christian themes: Glass Hammer (though by reputation, I can't give you any lyrics), Neal Morse (who is kind of annoying in really pushing his message), and Iona (which I've shamefully shied away from trying only because of their Christian reputation), and Stryper..... I love Glass Hammer, but if they would really up their "message," I would definitely be turned off. I like my prog secular or mystical, but there's something about a Christian message that turns me off. I just don't like it.------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: paolo.beenees
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:29
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If you can translate from Italian, many 1970s bands were inspired by the Bible; just to list some names (and albums):
Osanna "L'uomo"
Rovescio della Medaglia "La Bibbia" (i.e.: The Bible)
J.E.T. "Fede, Speranza, Carità" (i.e.: Faith, Hope and Charity)
Latte e Miele "Passio Secundum Mattheum"
But please, don't forget to listen to the best christian prog band ever: the German band POPOL VUH. Start with Hosianna Mantra and keep in mind that - from that album on - they inspired their lyrics and music to the Bible. ------------- 
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:44
| Religious music is just like any other music. There are hacks, there are good ones, and there are some really great ones. I personally don't think that it should be given any different treatment, in the positive or negative directions. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:47
that's worth 3 clappies  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
paolo.beenees wrote:Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 17:53
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If I want religious music, I'll listen to Bach and Monteverdi, who are simply unmatched.
When it comes to prog, I prefer artists with an anti-religious message, particularly Robert Wyatt, who can be needle-sharp! |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 18:03
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Kerry Livgren's lyrics have always been of a spiritual nature from the get go although there is a more definite view after his conversion in 1979. I find his lyrics view pre- conversion to be better somehow although I don't have any argument with his present faith. I think if you listen to Before Became After by Proto-Kaw the songs written in the 1971-3 era are better to me except Leaven. Those songs are Quantum Leapfrog, Axolotl, Heavenly Man and Theophany (no Kerry did not change any of the lyrics from the way they were in the new recordings)
Neal Morse is way more upfront with his lyrics than Kerry is. Kerry said he likes the listener to respond to what they hear rather than him telling you what it is. Neal is way more in your face about what he believes. That being said I don't think you can go wrong with either artist. They both create some fantastic music. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 18:10
for me, lyrics really should be looked at seperately from the music, and shouldn't really interfere with the music itself (unless its glaringly horribly written.) My mom tells me I don't listen to enough Christian music  but my problem is modern Christian Rock 99% of the time thinks they can pass off generic music as amazing if they have (equally generic) religious lyrics. I reaaaaaally want an artist who makes great music and in depth lyrics based around this, and the closest I have is Neal Morse whose lyrics are at the very least passable
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 18:47
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Kerry LIvgren writes in a clever way he allows the listener to find the meaning whatever that meaning may be. he isn't preachy at all he makes it fun to receive meaning and I finish listening to all of his songs wanting to find out more. Certain words and phrases have a more poetic and musical quality about them Livgren seems to be such a master composer he knows what sounds best and means the most. |
Posted By: Ty1020
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 19:24
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Although he's not always widely considered a prog artist or a
Christian artist, I'd strongly recommend checking out Sufjan Stevens.
He makes some very progressive, interesting, and beautiful music, and
many of his songs have very strong Christian undertones. Some are even
openly and obviously Christian in nature, although they're never
preachy, and can almost always be interpereted in any way the listener
wants to.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Ty1020/"> 
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Posted By: Hamfari
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:10
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Interesting thread (although i´m not that religious)
can´t help you, didn´t know christian prog existed hehe.
The only religious music i listen to is choir music by the russian composer Alfred Schnittke. ------------- Nobody needs to go anywhere else. We are all, if we only knew it, already there. |
Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:21
| I welcome all kinds of lyrics, but when an artist/band puts off n-th album about the same theme, it seems a bit unoriginal... |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:22
Sufjan Stevens is great. His lyric writing is very interesting. Definitely Christian, but If that sort of Christian, experimental take on indie folk-rock is appealing, I'd also recommend http://wm11.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:hnfpxq8sldfe - Anathallo (the "marching band gone wild"). Jennifer Knapp is another Christian singer-songwriter-type whose most recent album (The Way I Am) might be of interest to prog fans on the strength of its rhythm section (Tony Levin and Vinnie Colaiuta)... |
Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:25
Indeed. I was slightly offended by that part from KE 9: 1st Impression as well. (Says the man with the BSS icon) As for "The Only Way", sometimes I found it sounded anti-God, sometimes it sounded pro-God. Jethro Tull's lyrics I found weren't to my taste either, on the "Aqualung" album. Although I understand Ian Anderson's message. Also, Genesis's "Visions of Angels" slightly offended me, the part where Peter Gabriel sings "God gave up this earth, its people long ago." And also "In vengance to a god no one can reach." But I'm not sure if the lyrics were talking THE God or a different god in regards to the "vengance" part. ANYWAY, /rant. Here are the best Christian progressive musicians IMO: Neal Morse <-------- as a Catholic, I loved his "One" album, I thought "Christian music that has GOOD music? EH?" Glass Hammer |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:35
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As a Catholic I should love Christian Prog, but i don't believe it's the best option. IMHO music must be free and not advertising, I love spiritual and even political music but when it turns into evangelism or propaganda for a determined political position, I rather avoid it.
If I want to receive the message of God, I go to my Church, if I want to get politically involved, I go to a political party, but I believe music must not be used as a jingle or an instrument to make evangelism, no matter if it's Christian, Catholic, Jewish or whatever.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 20:39
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I think Neal has a real fire lit underneath him being that he has only been a Christian within the past 6 or 7 years. If he comes off 'too preachy' to some (which I don't think he's being preachy--merely telling a story), he's probably pretty consumed with his faith and that's all he wants to write about. He may begin mingling in some more secular subjects here in the next few years and maybe (hopefully) entertain a Transatlantic reunion. Right now, I don't believe he's comfortable balancing the two styles and wants to focus on spreading the Word. I don't have a ton of Christian discs, but there are some Christian artists that I do enjoy and I don't consider them lightweight at all. One band that I am listening to a lot is Casting Crowns. They aren't cookie cutter in the least. Extremely talented band. Lastly, I can't recommend any other bands that haven't been mentioned. I've really been getting into Iona, which really pens some beautiful and spiritual music. All of the ones mentioned I'd highly recommend. Neal Morse especially. E ------------- 
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 21:00
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iona is known to deal with christian themes. I purchaed one album
from them a while ago and it did little for me musically, but I don't
remember being offended by the lyrics. South Carolina band Farpoint has 3 albums with fairly recognizable Christian themes, and quite pleasant music. German group Eden did a great album (lyrics in German) called Erwartung which apparenlt has biblical references. Strawbs "From the Witchwood" and "Grave New World" also deal with Christianity as well as other spiritual themes. Benedictus is one of the most secular religious songs I know, and one of the most beautiful. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 21:45
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Faith is a delicate thing. I think in this case most important things are talent and sincerity. For me one of the best examples of good music linked to religion is "Jesus Christ Superstar" by Webber - Rice. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Inverted
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 22:18
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As a Catholic, Sola Scriptura aggravated me for the same reason, I could imagine, Christian lyrics would aggravate an Atheist. Typically, I do not mind well-written, professionally-done, and CREATIVE Christian lyrics with a good message. I start to get feisty is when they come and beat you over the head with typical cliches. ? Was a pretty good example of some CProg that I can enjoy. I have recently discovered AJALON to be some pretty good stuff too. ------------- Prog... It's good. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 22:19
I didn't know about the website or some of the groups you have mentioned - thanks for that! Since I have been a Christian for over thirty years, I had always been looking for bands that put the message with good music, i.e., prog. Not sure you can find any of these on CD or vinyl, but my (old) short-list is:
1. Michael Omartian - White Horse (1974): I had it on vinyl, and I am not sure if you can find it on CD (Omartian is perhaps more jazz-rock, but some of the tracks on this album border on prog)
2. Second Chapter of Acts - Narnia (1978): A great concept album with great musicians, such as Phil Keaggy. It reminds me of Marillion's Misplaced Childhood in how it weaves different song-concepts into one grandiose suite.
3. Aslan (late 1970s): their name was contested by another secular band, so I am not sure they ever recorded. Heard them live in concert at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. Their sound was like 'Kansas meets ELO with a sprinkling of Jethro Tull' - really excellent music!
You can still get (at least through Amazon.com):
1. Kansas - Song for America (1975): 'The Devil Game' (and other 1980s Kansas releases; by mid-1984, Kerry Livgren formed the band, AD, which was not very prog)
2. Kerry Livgren solo release (1979): A wonderful album with many different excellent guest musicians: Ronnie James Dio; David Pack; Barriemore Barlow; and so on. Some songs are less prog than others.
That's it from me. I think others in this thread are more well informed than I am, but thought I would contribute my "two-cents" anyway... |
Posted By: Ty1020
Date Posted: December 17 2007 at 23:30
Holy cow, thank you so so much for the Anathallo recommendation! I've been listening to them for hours and I think they're going to quickly become one of my favourite bands. I hear some Sufjan, Do Make Say Think, and Jaga Jazzist similarities, but at the same time they're completely fresh and unique... wow! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Ty1020/">
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 00:56
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I second the IONA recommendation.You will like them if your into Celtic music.HOURGLASS is very good if your into metal. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 03:22
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As an observation, it is interesting to contrast this thread with the current one about "foreign" vocals.
There the consensus is that the lyrics are largely irrelevant, here for some they clearly matter a lot.
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 03:36
| Not prog, but Albert Ayler and Charles Gayle are awesome beyond words. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 04:50
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One of the really nice things about prog music is that is religion neutral for the most part. By the way, have you heard Wormwood by the Residents or In The Beginning by Rick Wakeman? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 06:09
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Don't laugh but a lot of Chis de Burgh's earlier stuff is prog influenced and inspired by Christianity, before he went wishy-washy mainstream. He had a fairly good concept album called "Crusader" which you may want to check out. ------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 07:31
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"Christian prog" is contradictio in adjecto as well as "secular prog"!
If an artist uses christian or any other religious themes, ideas, concepts or imageries in its work for artistic purposes, it does not make it "christian"..
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:00
Hmm, a contradictio in adjecto? That would mean the two concepts Christianity and Progressive Rock are mutually exclusive; this I think is not the case. I think it is more an enallage, a term that (among other things) describes phrases like "a four-storied landlord" when actually "landlord of a four-storied house" is meant. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:35
| Perhaps I used a bit awkward terminology. What I meant to say is that the use of adjectives is not proper in this case. |
Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 08:36
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Glass Hammer -- Anything from Chronomotree onward. I find many music/lyrics spiritual, even when the artist didn't intend it. This, my friend, is the true definition of art. A really interesting set of CDs to get are a couple from Vangelis: 1) Aphrodite's Child -- 666. This is an album that is based on St. John's Revelation of the Apocalypse. This is NOT easy listening though. The book of Revelation is a very scary intense book and this album catches it well; it is strange, intriguing and sometimes uncomfortable. But stays true to the book. If you want to get the farthest away from preachy lyrics but still remain spiritual, this one's for you. Not for the thin skinned tho. 2) Vangelis' Heaven and Hell: A mostly instrumental album doing a glorious job and the dichotomy of heaven and hell. With beautiful lyrics by Jon Anderson (who's work with Yes and personal work are very spiritual for me). Hope this helps. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 09:51
I made this same observation and was considering posting something of a similar nature, but instead will just quote Easy Livin'. -------------
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Posted By: Badabec
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 10:42
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After having listened to the great The Power To Believe album I asked myself if Robert Fripp is a religious guy or maybe Adrian Belew (wohever wrote the lyrics) because of the whole She carries me through days of apathy [...] - The Power To Believe thing. Any ideas? ------------- Mesmo a tristeza da gente era mais bela E além disso se via da janela Um cantinho de céu e o Redentor - Antônio Carlos Jobim, Toquinho & Vinícius de Moraes - Carta ao Tom 74 |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 10:52
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Glass Harp is another Christian prog band that put out 3 albums in the early seventies. I believe their first was either 69 or 70. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 11:52
agreed! and "The Getaway" was very good too. Nothing as unctuous as the lady in red there. But Crusader for the christian themes
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Posted By: Space Dimentia
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:02
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I'll admit Im christian (on my birth cetificate) but I dont go to church and at the moment im abit up and down with religion especially with all the 'religious wars' going on at this moment i.e. Iraq and fighting Islam (all Bull in my eyes, christians, musilims and jews all come from abraham so whats the problem?) but dont get me started, BUT I do feel here in this country under all these PC Liberal lefties the C of E is being forced out and smothered as not to offend everyone whos not white or christian and that is wrong we are a C of E country and should stay that way we have been since the mid 1530's!!!! All Im saying is 'When in Rome...'!!!!
Anyway I like abit of christian prog and can give you a couple of bands that are in my collection (all three to be precise), try out:
Saviour Machine - awsome prog metal, Eric Clayton has a fantastic voice, their lyrical content is mainly the book of revalations but done in a cool non-forceing upon us way.
Narnia - another quality prog metal band from germany, they have helped Eric Clayton with Saviour Machine on the last three/four albums: The Legend Series after Jeff Clayton, the bassist and drummer lefter after 'Saviour Machine II'. Very DT like at times but done in a non-DT way.
Orphaned Land - My Favourite band ever!!!!! Saw them last year at the first PPUK and was hooked from then on. They hail from Israel and my best way to describe them is Opeth go Middle-Eastern, they sing in Jewish, Latin, Islam and English, their lyrical content is very far and wide but mainly along the lines of how the big three are all the same, worship the same god and should all get along, their new album 'Mabool' is based upon Noah and the flood with a wierd sub story of how all the 3 relgions came to be. All VERY VERY cool!
In fact why are OL classed as post-metal now? They are an extreme/tech-metal band like Opeth!!!!!! And by the way DSO are not extreme/tech metal they are more avant-garde metal/post metal!!!!!!! ------------- Prog is music for the mind Hear your Orphaned child! Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17 |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:17
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Mickstafa wrote:
None of this albums fall in the category of Christian Prog, which is a derivation of Christian Rock that means Rock used as an instrument to transmit the Christian message. Aphrodite’s Child are hardly trying to make evangelism, they are simply making a concept album about one of the most controversial books of the Bible, they are not asking anybody to believe, they are simply describing a book, that for some of us may be holy and for others pure fantasy. If they made a Concept album about Harry Potter hardly anybody (except the fundamentalists) would believe they are promoting witchcraft. Heaven and Hell is even less Christian exclusively, because this two concepts are present in many religions, Vangelis is only telling his visions about Heaven (Valhalla, Stobokor of the Klingons Please it’s 90% instrumental, how can you give a specific message about Chtritianity without using words? Now, both albums are outstanding, there we agree. -------------
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or whatever you want to call it) and Hell or Hades.Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:33
WooHoo! Total agreement with that.
Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to proclaim your beliefs in music, go ahead. I probably won't buy it, not that it matters. Does it make Prog worse? Well, to me, yes. I can't stand Neal Morse's pro-Christian rants, and that is a real shame because the music is decent. ------------- 
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 12:53
| I just don't think any subject should be blacklisted, seems close-minded to me. Eh, whatever, to each his own I guess. It just seems that much of prog is about open-mindedness, so saying that Christian,Buddhist,Satanist,etc messages are to be excluded from the "good" category flies in the face of prog itself. |
Posted By: Desoc
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:16
| I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the band echolyn. Much of their stuff have Christian and Christian-cultural references. For example, the "Letters" suite from echolyn's As the World album is based on a short book in popular theology by C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:22
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By living it you would be sharing it naturally and that would come across in almost everything you say or do. I think it would be so hard to separate it and then put on the secular hat per say.
Art and religious or spiritual expression has been going on for a long time. Bach in music Da Vinci and others in paint and sculpture. Not all of these are believers but they chose to make some statement about religion or spirituality in their art. So if it works that way I don't have a problem with it coming from a believer's point of view also. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 13:50
I disagree; The music that relates to Christianity (or any other spirituality) does not have to be evangelical. Chris Squire's new Christmas album is Christian in that it is comprised of traditional Christian hymns, but they aren't evangelical.
Wakeman's Christmas album is all instrumental and is not evangelical. The albums I mentioned (666 and Heaven and Hell) obviously are about Christian (or otherwise religious) themes, thus I think they are appropriate to mention. An album about the book of Revelation is interesting for many reasons, one of which could be a spiritual connection that people, such as I, have with them. I understood this thread to be about prog music that can relate to Christianity and not "praise prog." On a completely personal level, I even relate some albums such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, Going for the One and Olias of Sunhillow as relating to my Christian perspective. My termite inspector, during his inspection said, "well you've set a record! you are the only house I've been to that has a copy of Olias of Sunhillow out" (I have an album collage on a wall). He says that he interprets the Moorglade as the Ark and Olias as Noah. This is the beautiful thing about art and music -- the meaning is often in the interpretation regardless of intention from the artist. |
Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 14:03
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I agree with you, most "mainstream Christian" music is really poor quality, and despite myself agreeing with the message, I can't listen to it. Sharing particular beliefs with artists does seem to make a listening experience a little more deep, but I don't find it mandatory. I love U2, and I can tell their faith is evident in their lyrics, but it doesn't smack of evangelical obsession (i.e. preaching) like mainstream Christian music. Another non-prog band in a similar vein that I like is Norma Jean (math-core, very disorienting stuff, recommended I find most prog to be ambivalent to my faith. I do find some lyrical bents to be irritating, though (like occasional Tool lyrics for instance), but it's nothing uncommon, so it doesn't really offend me or anything.
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), and I'm embarassed that I still haven heard any Sufjan Stevens yet 
. (I'll probably go after work and get Illionoise if I can find it.)Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 16:47
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 17:40
It's true that's why i believe that Rock or Prog with Christian, Catholic or Jewish messages is not the best option, because it's being used as an instrument to convert kids with messages.
The same opinion I have for Satanic messages or for that band that we were shown some time ago praisingg Bush.
Music as an expression of your spirituality is great but when it's so specific that tries to gain followers without their concious will is wrong.
I don't want a Catholic who is converted because he heard a tune that he liked, that guy is not a real Catholic, most surely a lost kid following anything that he will be offered and who will change as fast as he was converted.
In the same way I believe in free music, not in one that says that they carry the only truth and the rest are wrong.
I share the same respect for a Catholic, Baptist or Mormon Church as I also respect a Sinagogue and a Mosque, this doesn't mean I'm less Catholic, but it means I believe all persons are entitled to believe in the God their parents taught them, so spirituality in music is OK, but the more specefic you get, the closer to fanatism and bigotry you are.
Music as a tool ceases to be music to turn into propaganda and is against the freedom of art.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:06
Try reading the liner notes in this CD. He precisely says the album is NON-commercial variations on traditional Christian hymns, for Christians. He is very clear that the album is supposed to be non-commercial and is meant to be a true spiritual album about the event that is at the center of Christianity, the birth of Jesus. He is very clear that it is a christian record. So if you can't call that a Christian album, then I don't know what is. And if you recognize that it is a Christian album after reading his liner notes, then your argument falls apart. Evangelism is not a requirement for prog with Christianity in it. Nothing more for me to say on this subject. Anyhow the topic starter wanted some Christian inspired albums. We gave him some suggestions. Let's leave it at that. |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:17
Wow, verry convincing.
That last statement made me think about RIO and especially Henry Cow with their "Art as a hammer" mentality, I know your not really a RIO fan anyway but does that take away from the music for you? Or do you just find it annoying?
P.S.
Personally I'm not a fan of christian music as it feels like its only for "insiders" already in the faith and I am left on the outside and can't connect. However I love how Kansas shows searching because I really can connect with that. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 21:08
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If one were to be annoyed by christian music and not atheistic music (or vice versa) one is listening with a dangerous bias. If you are prepared to listen to music influenced by religion (no, not preachers), feel free to check out Echolyn and The Flower Kings. Especially the albums Suffocating The Bloom and Unfold The Future. Albums to ponder the meanings of for sure!
For the record though I don't understand how anyone here can comment simply on religious CDs without commenting also on atheistic CDs. It has the same damn effect, it puts a chalk line between those who are religion-supporters and those who are religion-dismissers, leaving all fair minded people to get their feet chalked. Personally I'll give any quality music a fair chance, though at the end of the day it is the audience of a band that should be freely deciding what to, or what not to, believe in.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 18 2007 at 21:49
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Posted By: SoundsofSeasons
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 00:41
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Music is a very powerful medium, and I believe abosolutely that a musician has the right to say basically whatever he wants when it comes to his world view or religion. Does that mean some people won't like it/ listen to it/ tolerate it? Yes. However if a Christian, Buddhist, Athiest...whatever, want's to say something of course they should be able to.
Take two albums of this year for example.
Rush- Snakes and Arrows
and ...
Neal Morse- Sola Scriptura
Snakes and Arrows is outright against religion, and in fact probably considers it humanity's greatest crutch. Neal Peart holds back no punches, and is very blunt.
Neal Morse's Sola Scriptura is, although as i've said in a recent review not blatantly preachy, a Christian album through and through. No matter how you look at it, he is trying to get Christianity to show in his album. The end even gives you some religious idea to ponder on by saying, "God will change the world with just one willing soul. Maybe it is you he's looking for..."
Now I am Christian, so I love the messages in Sola Scriptura and they speak to me more than any other kind of message could. On the other hand I sort of take Snakes and Arrows offensively because Peart basically sais religious people are fools.
(My point is here) I own both these albums, and although I like Sola Scriptura a lot more, I actually like both. Even though I don't agree with most of Peart's lyrics at all, I still enjoy the music.
So, yes, people should absolutely be able to inject their world views, because even though there are many prog albums that are against christianity, there are those out there that accept it and even promote it. Accept that if you get what you want, then someone who opposes you has to get what he wants as well. Just be intellegent about it if you don't want to be affected by the lyrics, both athiests listening to Sola Scriptura and religious people listening to Snakes and Arrows can still enjoy the albums. ------------- 1 Chronicles 13:7-9 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets. |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 00:43
Here we go AGAIN.... ------------- |
Posted By: Tommydouglas
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:16
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I'm impressed that, on the first page (I haven't read the others yet) people were respectful in their replies avoiding the usual "I hate religion" defensive. Impressive since the anti-relgion folks tend to be extremely defensive and usually more dogmatic and fundamentalist than those they're criticizing. ------------- "I'm not really spiritual, just religious." |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:23
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I still wanna hear some of that there 'secular prog', man, sounds wild... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:26
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 05:27
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I've never heard any overtly Christian prog but I think there will be two main criteria to be fulfilled in order for me to like it:
1. Do I agree with the ideas expressed? I'm not a religious person but most religions have some basically good ideas about how we should treat each other. If the lyrical content goes no further than "Praise Him" I probably won't be interested.
2. Is the music any good? ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 08:39
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Ivan, I typically enjoy your posts but we just obviously disagree, which is fine. For me there is no longer a point to drag out this silly argument. You apparently like labels on music (which is fine); I on the other hand realize that many albums or even individual songs can be related to certain themes (in this case, Christianity). The topic starter wanted some suggestions of some prog music that was not preachy but centered around Christian ideas. So he got some. No one can doubt that 666, Wakey's Xmas album, Glass Hammer albums, etc. have influences that relate to Christian themes, regardless what "extremists" may have objected to them when they arrived on the market (i.e. 666). I'm moving on from this thread now; it is a shame though that threads like these get off course so often. |
Posted By: steve j
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 08:41
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I have found this thread to be very interesting. I classify myself as Christian, but I don't have any Christian prog. I never thought it necessary.
I do have Snakes and Arrows by Rush, and was surprised that Peart would do such an outward attack on the Christian Church, but I still went to their concert this year that was awesome. I kinda like Jon Anderson's lyrics on the Ladder, it has new age spiritual stuff on it, but I can see a connection to mainstream Christianity.
Someone said on here that we should treat others well. I say here! here! Thanks guys.
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:06
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After Crying also have some Bible/Chriustianity related songs, but they are often in Hungarianl like A gadarai megszállott.
The flood is a coomon element in more religions, Orphaned Land's Mabool is based on it.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:15
If I may say so, we should be careful to distinguish between a true religious message (such as in the case of Kerry Livgren or Neal Morse), and an interest in mythology, which is related to religion, but is not an object of belief. To a non-Christian (or non-Jew), the Bible is nothing more than a collection of myths with some historical episodes. The episode of the flood is a myth common to most religions, as Norbert says, but not necessarily something that bears any relation to faith. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:21
You make some good points but I don't think Religious music automatically means it's trying to convert you. I mean how often is that gonna work, anyway? It seems all your views serve to do is black-list some good music. Oh well, agree to disagree and what not I guess.
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Posted By: Juliovp
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:32
agree with that statement. by the way, religion is about yourself ,your life, your faith. not the music you hear |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 10:10
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Hmm, a hot topic Personally, I can deal with religious themes in music as long as the music is good. Just like I can often enjoy good music with, what I consider to be, bad lyrics (whether they are religious or not). But sure, the preachy stuff can get old, whether its Christian, political, what have you. But I try to focus on the music first.........if I like the lyrics that is a bonus. As to Ivan's comments about Sola Scirptura, I really don't think Morse is insulting other Christians. He's singing about events that took place hundreds of years ago, a time when "buying forgiveness" from the Catholic Church was quite common. That is what he is writing about, not modern day Catholics. At least, that is the impression of a non religious person (myself). Besides, I love the music. Neal has managed to create Christian music that I can actually stand to listen to, and even enjoy. But as I said, it's really about the music for me. If that appeals to me, I can usually deal with the lyrical content, even if I don't think it's any good. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 11:36
Infandious, seems you are not familiar with the constant attacks against the papacy, this is one example and it's offensive for us, I haven't heard any track attacking Luther for being a racist and an anti semite that said he would baptize all the Jewishs throwing them to the river tied to a Rock shouting I baptize you in the name of Abraham.
Proto Nazism in my opinion but I wouldn't approve that either.
Now the attacks are one sided as always and it's not against a determined Pope, it's an attack against the institution of Papacy that is offensive to us. Celibacy for example is still a part of our religious tradition Infandous and it's being attacked in this track, and there are worst ones, Mr Morse is using his music as a tool of propaganda and hatred against other beliefs
BTW: Raffaella made a point, concept albums about one or more determined events of the Bible are not Christian in the sense that are not made to preach, just concept albums about one book that is holy to us but just Mythology for others.
Morse is a preacher with a microphone and that disgusts me, he is free to do it, but I'm free not to buy it and to criticize that position.
So I'd better avoid it.
Mickstafa wrote:
Not true Mickstafa:
Profanatio wrote:
You can't deny what is clearly written by the author, there's no room for doubts or interpretations, his point is clear, he's talking about Preching Prog and not asking for suggestions, he's asking for opinions, so I give mine.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 13:40
Actually, I am familiar with it just as I'm quite familiar with Luther's anti-semitism. I'm not trying to defend Luther by any stretch. I just don't see any attack in Morse's lyrics like you do (at least not on modern Catholicism). You do, and that is fine. "So I'd better avoid it." We agree on this, at least  |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: December 19 2007 at 23:46
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Geoff Mann recorded some great "Christian prog" tunes with Twelfth Night ("The Ceiling Speaks" and "The Collector") and afterward. I'm not much of a Neal Morse fan but ? is very good.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: SoundsofSeasons
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 00:45
I don't really understand why you are offended by this album. Obviously you are not trying to deny the corruption the catholic church during the time before the Reformation, so why are you offended? I guess maybe because he (Neal Morse) layed on the blame a little thick and made the preists to seem evil? O.K. yah maybe, and yes i had a hunch it would be pretty controversial. What im trying to say is I understand where your coming from, being offended by the portrayal of evil Neal gives of the catholic church, but you have to at least admit that it gets the point across. If he had sugar coated it, it probably would have sounded like he was beating around the bush, or some people may not even had understood it at all.
edit: Oh and by the way, where did this offense come from anyway? I was talking about how I enjoyed both secular and christian music, and you somehow came up with the fact that I was supporting an album that supposedly attacks the catholic church. Taken completely out of context. ------------- 1 Chronicles 13:7-9 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 08:36
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 09:50
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I appreciate the sincerity of the debate here, but we in danger of getting bogged down in a religious debate and the views of Neal Morse in the prog music area. Can we stick to the original topic please, which is a much wider discussion about Christian Prog and religion in prog in general. Detailed observations on religion per se are better reserved for the non-music areas of the forum.
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:29
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On the subject of ELP First Impression lyrics, were they not written by Sinfield?... and isn´t Sinfield jewish? That must certainly be of relevance, right? I mean, in the first place, I don´t see why a jew would say anything good about Jesus (not that they do otherwise by any means!), so when mentioning Jesus it´s either with incredulity or... I don´t know, humor maybe¿ Of course I can be wrong, as this might not be the case, and Sinfield might not be jewish after all... anyone knows if this is the case? ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:32
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OK, I'll try again. Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood? Wakeman's is certainly Christian. Wormwood is more old Teastament. Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy. And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:55
Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes! I for one am Christian Catholic, as I was baptized, but I don´t feel very close to this religious, I think I have my own "spiritual" beliefs, so it´s natural I don´t get offended by Morse lyrics, but at the same time, if I was more into cathlicism I don´t think I would be offended either... the man has a point, the Papacy was (I really don´t feel I should talk about the now) incredibly corrupted and did what ever they feel like it for centurys, and that´s no secret either, so what´s so wrong with talking, or singing about it? And if it is an "attack" to our days Catholic institution well, let him do it, as you said yourself "Rock must be free". Ah and, and I mean no disrespect, if he attacks the Papacy its an attack to all your beliefs? I´m no expert, but I would think that there is more to the Catholic religion than just the Papacy, so why does that attack ALL your beliefs? ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:42
| Please see my post above!! |
Posted By: Space Dimentia
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:58
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Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia? Or don't they count in this very interesting conversation? ------------- Prog is music for the mind Hear your Orphaned child! Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17 |
Posted By: Lofcaudio
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 12:45
So far. I loved Eric Clayton's voice on The Human Equation, but have found Saviour Machine to be almost a bit too intense for my taste. I've heard great things about Narnia but never had the chance to give them a try.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 20 2007 at 13:39
I will accept Bob's request, so will only talk about the central issue.
Yes Rock must be free, but IMO Catholic, Christian, Jewish or any other religious Rock is aything but free.
I believe that used as an instrument of evangelism is a tool,. an instrument, noi different than a TV conmmercial trying to convince you of buying a determined soda because it's "better" than all the others.
And yes he or anybody may write about what they want, satanic Rock is a prove of that and there's nothing we can do to stop it, but we are also allowed strongly disagree and express that disagreement.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: endlessepic
Date Posted: December 21 2007 at 00:57
Anathallo! I've never heard anyone mention them on here before. Great band and very prog but still Christian! |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: December 21 2007 at 09:07
I mentioned Orphaned Land some posts above.
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Posted By: MrBertstown
Date Posted: December 21 2007 at 22:19
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"Lay Down" by the Strawbs is about the 23rd Psalm.
And I'm surprised that there's no recording of this song by a Christian Band! ------------- Thank God for Kids who love Obscure Things. Lee Hazelwood (1929-2007) |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 11:28
I have never heard Neal Morse "rant" on any his cd's. What I have heard is him telling a story about what he believes. By the way, I am atheist, not christian.
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Posted By: steve j
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:26
Wormwood ................................There's that word again. What does it mean?
My interpretation is that it's a herb, only found in the Ukraine. The word has a Ukrainian translation. Its called Chernobyl. Does the word sound familiar?
The bible mentions this herb. It says: -
Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
The interpretaion is in the ears of the receiver, but to me the interpretation is clear. It is no accident that the word Wormword is used.
Thank you Rick (Wakeman). Wormwood seems more New Testament to me, but I am not unhappy if others disagree with me.
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:32
I agree that music must be 'free', but still don't understand how focusing on God isn't free. For them and for anyone willing to listen, it's freedom. You've used that word before and I guess I need further explanation on what you mean by 'free'.
Just curious.
E -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:48
Not being used a tool of conversion and Evangelism in this case.
God is a good issue to write about, but trying to convince others that our belief is the real and only or that you must follow it, is no different than telling people drink Pepsi and not Coca Cola in a jingle.
That's my honest opinion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 17:36
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That clears it up for me. Not sure I agree, but we're all different and I respect your opinion, Ivan.
E -------------
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Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:01
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Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God, into an image made like to corruptible man.......
Romans 1: 22
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever, AMEN....
Romans 1: 25 ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:07
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^ It's kind of hard to believe fully in quotes from a book which relies only on itself to prove its truth. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 22 2007 at 20:10
It's usual in some people to take the Bible out of context:
Romans 1 is specifiically directed to the Greeks and their unrightful behaviour that included fornication and homosexuality, an issue about which I won't talk but is not the case.
It's easy to know a book by memory, it's harder to understand it.
But our friend Jesus is Saviour is a prove of what I'm saying, he comes to a Prog Music site almost exclusively to evangelize people.
Iván -------------
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http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rom&chapter=1&verse=26&version=KJV#26">
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=1&verse=26&version=KJV#26">
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Rom&chapter=1&verse=26&version=KJV#26">
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rom&chapter=1&verse=26&version=KJV#26">
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: December 23 2007 at 02:50
| secular prog pwns |