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micky

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Topic: Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related
Posted: November 16 2007 at 18:50

^^ Jack Bruce could be here for his own solo work LOL

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 18:38

rushfan4 wrote:

rileydog22 wrote:

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work. There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion. For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson. Should he be in the Archives?

I forgot to mention that he also appeared on a couple of Peter Gabriel albums and Voyage of the Acolyte with Steve Hackett. But I digress since that doesn't add to the fact that it was session work. As far as inclusion for session work I guess it would depend upon what the session work consisted of. Playing the notes that were presented before him or being told this is what we have, make it work.

In regards to Jack Bruce, if Cream were here as proto-prog (I'm not certain whether they are or not) then I would support Jack Bruce on the premise that he is prog-related or at least proto-prog related.

Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work). Weak argument, but an observation.

Actually, T-Lev is here because he has released several solo albums of progressive rock. He would not be here simply for his work on King Crimson, Yes, Peter Gabriel, and Pink Floyd albums.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 17:24

Rushfan4 said:

I like PA very much the way it is right now and not including Phil Collins really does not bother me. I mentioned this elsewhere previously, but I feel that a feature that could be added that would make PA even better would be an option similar to All Music Guide where you can click on band members and go to their various biographies and discographies. If this feature ever becomes an option then that would be the only time where I would feel that it was absolutely essential that Phil Collins be included (but still preferably with the disclaimer).

You touched a central issue.

Allmusic can afford this luxury, because even when Rick Wakeman has performed "Return to the Centre of the Earth" with Bonnie Tyler, they can create the link to her bio, being that All Music si a GENERAL MUSIC site, Bonnie Tyler will be there with her complete biography and discography.

Prog Archives is a PROG MUSIC SITE, so even when Bonnie Tyler has played in "Return to the Centre of the Earth", her biography will never be added to Prog Archives, because she's not remotely a Prog or Prog Related album.

So that hyperlink (not hard to create) will be limited (if it ever happens) to the Prog or Prog Related artists, not being Phil one of them.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 16 2007 at 17:26

rushfan4

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 16:19

Ivan,

You did a fine job at staying civil. And once again I have no disagreements with any of your responses for they come back to the same conclusions that are reached in many of these type threads. Where do we draw the line? That is not an answer that I have nor am I qualified to provide. I will say that everyone's ideas of where that line is drawn are different but that is not necessarily a bad thing, because if everyone agreed there would be nothing to debate, and where is the fun in that.

You have answered my question from the first post. Since you are a prime representative of someone who would disagree with Phil's inclusion. If you don't feel that including him with this disclaimer statement is appropriate then obviously it does not appease the target of my question. (Raff said she didn't think that it would be accepted and I expected that she was correct, but hearing it from you confirms that).

Back to the where do we draw the line angle. In response to your list of various artists, my answer sadly enough would be that if PA is the most comprehensive prog site than unfortunately yes they should be included because of these relationships to prog. Now before you do jump through the computer screen at me I would also say that absolutely none of these artists should be added to PA before every single other potentially true prog rock artists has been considered and added. On the one hand, the sooner this happens the better, because this would mean every single known prog band has made it to the archives and now there is time to add stragglers and hanger-ons. With a little luck this will never happen because there will be a constant influx of new prog bands and prog albums (there goes my bank account).

To that line of thinking I do feel that Phil Collins and certain other artists are a different issue because of their high profiles and their major involvement within the prog scene. However, although I don't feel that including him is as bad of a thing as you do, I know that I am in the minority.

One last thing that I will reiterate from prior threads, I think that M@x , the admins, and the special collaborators have done an excellent job of limiting the entries into prog-related. I forget the exact numbers but there is only one prog-related band added for approximately every 100 prog bands that are added. I am of the opinion, as I think they are, that prog-related bands are a necessary evil to the site, because the bands that are selected for this category meet your definition of prog-related, and in their own special ways they belong here.

All that typing, I feel like Ringo Starr after playing Helter Skelter. For those of you who made it through all this wordiness thank you for sticking with it. Now please remove the needles from your voodoo dolls, the various aches and pains are killing me.

Edited by rushfan4 - November 16 2007 at 16:23

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 15:12

rushfan4 wrote:

Hi All,

I'm glad this thread has remained civil, it's my turn to make it uncivil , just joking.

Well, I survived the night so Britney's ex-bodyguard must not have been a Peter Gabriel fan. I'm suspecting that from a lot of the posts that I read since from last night, my very first post was not read. How is PA's creditibility hurt for having Phil Collins on the site if his biography reads in a manner as I have proposed? It is as about specific as possible in stating that Phil Collins as a solo artist is not a prog rock artist.

Any site specialized in a determined genre or style, keeps it credibility adding artists that belong in the parameters of the genre or are at least related with it. Phil Collins not only never released a single Prog solo song (his works with Eno, etc are credited in the Eno page) but was the most bitter enemyy of Prog in the 80's and 90's while his trio was incredibly popular.

Luike it or not, for Progheads Phil is a symbol of anti Prog, I know very few Progheads that even respect him for anything besides hios career as drummer, it's simply the guy that represents the worst of the 80's and the hatred agaiinst ´prog.

Yes, we would loose credibility among Progheads, that like it or not (again) are our target audiennce, no matter how many non Prog artists you find when googling their names, bvery few Pop fans wioll ever enter to a site called PROG Archives, so the only members that we should cvount on are the Progheads.

Secondly, again this proposal was based 100% around Easy Livin's comment that an artist should be included in Prog-related if they were a former member of a progressive rock band.

But it's understood that they must aditionally have at least made something that_

Influenced Prog or
Was clearly influenced by Prog or
Has at least a few Prog elements blended with mainstream.

It0s understood, clear and in our official page as a requisite.

Thirdly, Ghost of Morphy's comment above is the exact reason why I feel that Phil Collins should be here. My difference of opinion with most of you would consist on the idea that Phil Collins solo career is 99% non-prog, while the rest of you think it is 100% non-prog.

Billy Joel played on a Proggy disaster called Attila...Must we include him?
Elton John played in the Gentle Giant predecessor, ditioned for King Crimson and if I'm not wrong for Gentle Giant...Must we add him?
Bobb Galdoff and the Boomtown Rats made one Proggy song (I Don't like Mondays) I'm sure is more than 1% of their career because they don't have 100 songs,....Is this enough to add them?
John Mayhew played in Genesis before Phiol Collins, must we add him?
The Buggles played in Yes...Must we add them?
What about Missing Persons?...Terry Bozzio played there and even more related because I believe the lead singer was his wife, so also related by marriiage.

The question is wghere to draw the limitt, Phil Collins never made a contribution to Prog except as member of Genesis, Brand X and session musiccian of a couple of Prog artists, so his solo careershould be out of the question.

To Sean Trane, no, I am not the person who proposed Boston, but yes, I am one who would support their inclusion in Prog-related. They do have a concept album and they can stand toe to toe with any progressive rock band in pretentiousness. But I digress.

Even when I'm against Boston's inclusion, I find more arguiments in their proposal, at least they didn't expressed hate and disrespect fior Prog, even when they didn't made a prog or Prog related album.

I haven't seen Bob's other post regarding Phil Collins having been already rejected as a Prog-related artist. Despite my starting this thread, I have absolutely no problem with having Phil Collins not included, as again, the whole point of this thread was in regards to my very first post which offered a compromise biography which I had hoped would appease those who were adamantly against his inclusion, and was also a follow-up to a highly respected member of the forum's post which begrudgingly stated the same thing.

I know you are just stating your position that is respectable, but I believe this site has already made too many compromises, most of them necessary, it was born as a PROGRESSIVE ROCK site4, now we are including barely Prog bands and even influential non Prog artists, but everything has a limitt, including a Prog basher is way too much IMHO.

One last reason (I think) for why I feel Phil Collins should be included also is to address another excellent point made by Easy Livin' in his post. Many times a listener who is a fan of one band will want to give that band's solo artists and spin-off bands a listen in the hopes that they will have the same sound. To save such a listener from the same disappointment that most of you have, this site would be performing the service that it has set out to provide by telling this listener that Phil Collins as a solo artist is absolutely not a prog artist. If his solo albums all show 1 and 2 averages this should be very clear to that listener that they probably would be disappointed in his solo albums if they are fans of progressive rock. Yes, this is very obvious to those that are well-versed on these matters, but I am sure there are also those that have been under a rock for the last 20 years or born yesterday so to speak who might benefit from this inclusion.

That's OK for a general music site as Allmusic, but not for us, if we are making a service telling that Phil Collins is not a Prog Artist, we should make the same service with Michael jackson, Boney M and Earth Wind / Fire (who played in ABACAB).

Again, I have no problem with his being rejected and I have no problem with any member who dislikes Phil's solo career or who vehemently disagrees with his being included. Within a forum thread there is no way for me to know whether or not any of the posters read my very first post which started this thread or if their long developed reject reflex kicked in just at the title of the thread. I know that many times people just see the last post and react towards that. None of the posts seem to address my very first post and all that I ask is for opinions in regards to that.

I read your first post and I disagree aboyut adding an artist with a disclaimer, that says almost "We know he doesn't belong here, but we add him anyway" it's unnecesary for Prog Archives and IMO insulting for the artist.

If we do that, we should also add a John Mayhew bio saying AS A SOLO ARTIST HE HAS NEVER RELEASED ANY WORK, HE WORKS AS A STAGE CONSTRUCTOR.

Also a George Michael bio wiith a similar statement because there's an album with QUEEN in our database that includes his name.

Sorry, but I believe disclaimers should only be made to correct unintentional mistakes not as a necessary part of his/er bio

Thank you again for your participation in this friendly debate and for all attempts at trying to keep this civil. I know how difficult that is considering the thread subject. I haven't gone outside yet so there may be some of you laying in ambush outside waiting for me but hopefully not.

Yes, I'm glad of that too, but it helps very much that your original position hasalways been very flexible and not trying to prove you believe you're right and everybody else is wrong, so the credit is mostly your's.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:54

Raff,

Same response to both of your paragraphs. Unfortunate but true.

Good look with the Visa issue. I definitely hope that it is resolved sooner rather than later (as do you obviously).

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:17

rushfan4 wrote:

Thank you Raff. It is a shame that you and Micky are separated by borders and silly but unfortunately necessary (to a degree) immigration laws.

It is unfortunate when these type discussions do not remain civil. Music is after all entertainment and meant to be enjoyable. As you have so elegantly pointed out many times "what is prog" is subjective, and "prog related is not prog", and we all have many varied opinions.

What are your thoughts in regards to my first post? Assuming Phil were to be accepted to Prog-related based on his relation to two Prog bands, do you not think that a biography of this type would not maintain the integrity of Prog Archives? It is very specific that Phil's solo career is not prog. I would even suggest that Ivan write this biography by beginning it with "A gun was held to my head but we are adding PC only because he was a member of Genesis and Brand X and his solo output is absolutely positively not progressive rock". And ending it with, "PC was added over Rushfan4's dead body because since he was the one who was suggested it he was the one who was drawn and quartered".

First of all, thank you for the solidarity. I won't go into the subject of immigration laws, though I'll say only one thing: no European country would ever keep legally married people separated for months waiting for a very expensive visa. I am almost 47, and I feel that every minute wasted is one step closer to the end of my life.

Back to the issue at hand, I am not so sure even a bio written in block capitals using the biggest font available and very bright colours would serve any purpose. Let's face it, people here keep saying things like, "what are Queen/The Beatles/Iron Maiden, etc doing here? They're not prog", when there have been countless threads and definitions trying to explain that PR does not mean prog, but exactly what the name says. People tend to see only what they want to see, and in any case not many users read either bios or genre definitions. I do, but I am not the majority. Sorry to sound so negative, but I've been here for over two years, and seen a lot of occurrences of people refusing to see evidence.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:09

Not a chance Debs!

rushfan4

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:09

The T wrote:

Su su sudio

(I like PC...but even I, who usually favor any, any addition, have to think twice or thrice on this one).

I have no idea what a su-su-sudio is, but If those same lyrics were being growled by Mikael Akerfeldt the discussion would be entirely different.

Kind of a scary thought.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 11:23

Using public access Internet, I'm rather constrained for time here. But I wonder if this new Phil Collins topic will match the epic Phil vs Peter / Evil Phil destroys Genesis / Is Phil the ANtichrist threads that we all used to dread, but neverthless obsessively & heatedly participate in past times ...

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 09:02

Ghost Rider wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

Raff, I certainly have no desire to upset you. We have had some very pleasant and cordial conversation amongst other threads and I hope that you understand that this is just a continuation in your quest to better define what is prog-related. Also, I know that Micky has some connections with Michigan so he could probably track me down and whack me for you. For that matter, he hasn't posted yet. He isn't on his way is he???? Runs and hides in bomb shelter.

You're not upsetting me at all.. Unfortunately, these days real life is doing enough of that! LOL

On the contrary, I appreciated the very civil, intelligent and constructive way the discussion was conducted, which is so rare in our modern society. Personally, though I don't like PC's solo output, nor do I consider it prog, I wouldn't throw a fit over the addition because I want to keep the site pure... Though I have tried to illustrate my own objections on purely musical grounds, I am also worried about the consequences of such a move. I still have nightmares about what happened when I added Iron Maiden and BOC, and I don't want to see people at each other's throats. I love this site not only for the music, but because of the friends I have made, and of course for the importance it has had in my private life. Seeing it torn by strife would really pain me a lot.

BTW, Micky is at work now, poor darling Cry

... Didn't have the time to jump into the conversation, but hopefully he'll do so tonight. He lived in Michigan when he was in his early 20s, though, and I suppose he's not been there in a long time.

Thank you Raff. It is a shame that you and Micky are separated by borders and silly but unfortunately necessary (to a degree) immigration laws.

Edited by rushfan4 - November 16 2007 at 09:03

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:50

darqdean wrote:

Thanks Scott, the debate has been enjoyable and mercifully civil on all sides. Even if nothing happens, at least it has blown away a few cobwebs and cleared the air a little.

Thank you Darqdean. In response to your previous post, I would like to clarify that I am not suggesting that Ivan took those quotes out of context. I saw an interview with Phil within the past couple of years where he commented that things that have been attributed to him have been taken out of context. Agreeably, since they have reformed Genesis and prog has gained some momentum and he has lost some of his fanbase, it was in his best PR interest to walk away from or try to reverse those previous comments that have been attributed to him. I lack any authority whatsoever in these regards, so I am not trying to attribute or dis-attribute these comments from Phil. Assuming that he did say them, as he probably did (Ivan, please advise if I have just committed slander/libel), it was at the very least disrespectful to those fans of prog era Genesis.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:28

I have no issues about maintaining the "purity" of the site (progressive rock by its very nature is a hybrid, mixing rock with classical, jazz, folk, etc) but I feel Phil Collins' solo music does not meet the current criteria for Prog Related.

"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:02

rushfan4 wrote:

You're not upsetting me at all.. Unfortunately, these days real life is doing enough of that! LOL

... Didn't have the time to jump into the conversation, but hopefully he'll do so tonight. He lived in Michigan when he was in his early 20s, though, and I suppose he's not been there in a long time.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:52

Thanks Scott, the debate has been enjoyable and mercifully civil on all sides. Even if nothing happens, at least it has blown away a few cobwebs and cleared the air a little.

What?

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:49

By the way, I hope that at the very least whether you agree with my posts or not that you are at least finding the conversation enjoyable and at least borderline insightful. I have tried to keep it entertaining with some eye-rolling comments.

To that end, we have all had those situations where you walk away from a conversation wishing that you had said something else. To that end, I just had two.

Upon further reflection the wise man on the mountain does not resemble Robert Fripp at all. In fact, he looks much more like the omniscient and all-knowing M@x..

(After all, Mr. Fripp is another beloved member of this site who has rejected the prog rock label at times throughout his career).

Secondly upon further reflection, the bomb shelter was not a bomb shelter at all. It was a Panic Room, where Riverside is playing 24 hours a day.

Peace, and hopes to a least an LOL, if not an all out ROTFL.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:23

Ghost Rider wrote:

James, I hope you understood my point.... I don't HATE Phil Collins (though I may not find him a particularly nice human being), but I think he has no place here based on purely musical reasons. I don't really care what he said about prog, and I am well aware of the fact other people have said the same things too.

However, I am worried about the effects such an addition would have on the whole fabric of the site. Let's face it, there are lots of members who would like to see genuinely progressive acts added, and see their suggestions refused on the basis that they are 'progressive, but not prog'. What would their reaction be if PC was added, and not, for instance, people like Laurie Anderson? Members, even very hard-working, valid ones, would leave in droves, while I am quite sure the addition would not attract any potential new members.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:19

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

I addressed this partially in my previous post but I wanted to expand upon it a bit. I am not as wise when it comes to the interpretation of "what is prog" as you may be Hugues. One of my purposes for frequenting this site is to expand upon and learn from others "what is the meaning of "prog"?". (Climbs mountain and asks Prog Dahli Lama, who surprisingly resembles Mr. Fripp (No offense meant to anyone who looks to the Dahli Lama as a spiritual leader)).

To that respect, I respect that Boston is considered an AOR band. What is the difference between a well-crafted rock/pop song and a poorly crafted prog song? To my untrained ear, a band like Boston sounds 100 times closer to what I consider to be the prog sound than a band say, like Meshuggah. I like "commercial" prog metal but have difficulty with the experimental/technical side of the prog metal sound. To that end it has been deemed appropriate by the powers that be that this experimental/technical side of metal belongs here. I respect that decision. Doesn't mean that I have to listen to those bands. Please Mikeenregalia don't let this have you cross me off your Christmas card list.

I support Prog Metal as a viable category of prog. I just have a lesser tolerance level.

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:53

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

Reflects this site's tendency to tremendous inconsistency, often through some peculiar group prejudices. There are a few proggie moments and a few more jazz rock/funky moments too, in Collins' cannon (amongst admittedly a lot of pop-slop earning the artful dodger multi-millions of dosh) - which exceed those of artists who have found their place in PA.

Just reminded myself that a good biog of a solo artists should include example of session work in the genre. Away from Genesis and Brand X, Phil Collins has done a lot of this in prog-based albums (Eno's ambient recordings), and especially jazz rock fusion albums (e.g. with Al DiMeola). Which reinforce his creditials as prog or prog-related (stand-alone) artist.

Edited by Dick Heath - November 16 2007 at 07:02

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Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:48

Hi All,

Secondly, again this proposal was based 100% around Easy Livin's comment that an artist should be included in Prog-related if they were a former member of a progressive rock band.

Edited by rushfan4 - November 16 2007 at 07:06