Suggest New Bands and Artists - Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related

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Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43521
Printed Date: December 03 2024 at 02:30
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related

Posted By: rushfan4
Subject: Phil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 14:51

Hi All,

I posted the following in the Laura Meade discussion thread and I am now copying it here since it is a more appropriate place to discuss (or re-discuss again). I think that the following would be a decent compromise to add a controversial artist such as Phil Collins to the Prog-related section (again to quote Ghost Rider, prog-related is not prog).

Let me ask you this. Would it be such a bad thing if Phil Collins were added to PA and if his biography consisted of the following in big bold black letters in size 40 font: AS A SOLO ARTIST PHIL COLLINS DID NOT PERFORM PROGRESSIVE ROCK MUSIC, HOWEVER, HE IS A WELL KNOWN PROGRESSIVE ARTIST FROM A SEMINAL PROGRESSIVE ROCK BAND AND THAT IS WHY HE IS HERE. He was the drummer and vocalist for Genesis as well as the drummer in the jazz fusion band Brand X..... For progressive rock you should check out these bands or other similar bands such as.....

My guess is that if people choose to review his solo albums they will end up with an average rating of 1 or 2, based upon the review standards provided by this website. Although ratings don't matter that much that should lay to rest any doubt that the members of PA believe that this work is poor and for fans only.

To my way of thinking, I don't see why this is a bad thing other than that the front page will be dripping with venom for the first few weeks while all the negative reviews are being posted. I think that this does send the message that Phil Collins is not a prog rock artist, but if you do like Phil Collins you should try Genesis or Brand X or whatever other bands are listed there. Will it persuade anybody else to like progressive rock music? I don't know. I have seen others post in some threads that they were aware of Phil Collins and latter day Genesis and had no idea that progressive era Genesis existed until they came here. What I will say is that there is at least one person, being me, who is living proof that being a progressive rock fan and being a Phil Collins fan is not mutually exclusive.

What do you think of something along those lines?

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Replies:

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 17:04

The post above has been extracted from another thread and placed here, with the agreement of RF4.

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 18:44

I'm really surprised this hasn't drawn any interest. I expected that it would be up to page 12 right now and the whole of Prog Archives would be standing outside my door with drumsticks to beat me senseless. Then again, I haven't checked outside my door and that might be why no one is posting.

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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 18:51

They're busy preparing the torture implements and setting fire to the hay for the obligatory burning at the stake.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:01

I was afraid of that. Or possibly that they were so stunned they fell from their chairs and knocked themselves out. But boy will I be in trouble when they come to. Although I imagine some computers may have triggered self-destruct mode at the mere thought.

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:07

Why would we want him here? Sure, he's an ex-prog musician, but there's thousands of those. If we included every artist or band which included prog-rock musicians, we'd have more non-prog than prog.

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Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:17

^ That's right in some sense. It's like adding Steve Winwood's solo career just because he was the leader of a prog band......

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The best you can is good enough...

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:20

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site).

Because he is easily one of the best-known former members of a prog band that plays what most consider to be non-prog music. With that being the case he certainly would have the best probability of drawing traditionally non-prog fans to this site and maybe once they're here they can be converted to the prog side of the force. Heck there are probably more posts in threads concerning him then any other band or performer on this site.

His inclusion would be almost entirely based on the idea of his being related to a prog band because he was a member of Genesis, but that is what would be included in his biography. If he were here you would certainly have the option to ignore his existence. Or you could have fun venting your displeasure by rating all of his albums 1 star.

As with anyone in the prog-related category the administrators and the site owner have the right to discriminate at their pleasure who is and who isn't included, so I am pretty certain that they would not allow that category to become completely out of control. Mostly, because they have better things to do with their time than deal with these types of artists.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:23

sircosick wrote:

^ That's right in some sense. It's like adding Steve Winwood's solo career just because he was the leader of a prog band......

Steve Winwood is another high profile non-prog musician who could serve a similar purpose to the site as Phil Collins would. Although, I am guessing that his albums would rate a 3 star instead of a 1 or a 2 star.

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:37

Like I said in that thread, I feel that the music should speak for itself. It's the music's relation to Prog, not the individual's relation that should matter.

When we allow one under those conditions, how can we not allow others? Making exceptions would just confuse and upset people. And I really think that Related should be treated more as a less-Prog rather than a non-Prog category (for bands/artists that don't quite make the cut in the accepted Prog categories).

As for including names particularly to bring people in, I'm rather against that on principle. Seems disingenuous, can be seen as too self-serving site-wise, and conniving in a way (even if it did help to make Prog more popular/ get people into it).

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:45

Logan wrote:

Like I said in that thread, I feel that the music should speak for itself. It's the music's relation to Prog, not the individual's relation that should matter.

When we allow one under those conditions, how can we not allow others? Making exceptions would just confuse and upset people. And I really think that Related should be treated more as a less-Prog rather than a non-Prog category (for bands/artists that don't quite make the cut in the accepted Prog categories).

As for including names particularly to bring people in, I'm rather against that on principle. Seems disingenuous, can be seen as too self-serving site-wise, and conniving in a way (even if it did help to make Prog more popular/ get people into it).

Bingo!

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:46

The question I would ask would be why? What is the positive benefit in adding Phil Collins?

I do not believe that his inclusion would fulfill the requirement of attracting new fans to the Prog Archives.

Any Phil fans would know he was in Genesis, even if they only knew the later releases, and therefore would find their way to the PA through Genesis (if at all - ever Googled Genesis? Even with mailto:m@xs - m@x's superpowers, Google does not lead you to the PA - the chances of a Phil Collins search resulting in a PA find would be many times less).

All that would happen is that his albums would get low ratings based on their zero Prog content, thus driving away the fans, and the occasional high rating from a fan who did not read the rating criteria, which would annoy Progheads. Either way, that would ultimately reflect badly on the PA (IMO).

However, I do not believe that there would be a dreadful flame-war for adding him: people here do not despise PC, most actually admire the guy, but I do think his solo albums would get hammered and I see no benefit in that for Phil or the Archive.

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What?

Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 19:49

Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:05

Shame on you old fascist

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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:11

What kills me is the phrase "prog related is not prog". If it's not prog, then what the #@&%! is it doing here?

E

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:18

Why is it here? Because its here. Roll the Bones.

Its here because mailto:M@x - M@x says its here.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:21

philippe wrote:

Shame on you old fascist

I haven't heard the Tarzan II soundtrack, but I ashamedly enjoy the Tarzan I soundtrack. But if this was a reason to exclude him, then ELP should be removed from the site for their Ice Show, and I certainly wouldn't expect or want that to happen.

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:22

Wasn't the infamous ice show Rick Wakeman? I don't think ELP had anything like that.

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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:24

rushfan4 wrote:

Why is it here? Because its here. Roll the Bones.

Its here because mailto:M@x - M@x says its here.

Doesn't mean all of us here have to like it. Right?

Free to speak my mind...I hope.

E

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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:25

rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site).

I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.

On the topic of Phil, I actually enjoy a lot of his solo work, especially when he lets his love of jazz or old-style r&b show through. Or when he's downright p*ssed off. If his solo albums were added, I could see myself rating his first album with a solid 4. It's good stuff and I still enjoy hearing it now and again, some 25 years after I first heard it, a rare thing for a non-prog album. I also like quite a bit of Hello...., But Seriously, and Dance into the Light (the drums on this album are superb, as he didn't use any drum machines

However, I have to agree with the majority here on this one. While he played in a prog band, his music really didn't draw a lot of influence from prog. Almost zero in fact. His influences were jazz, r&b and unfortunately some of the modern pop of time.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:27

darqdean wrote:

The question I would ask would be why? What is the positive benefit in adding Phil Collins?

I do not believe that his inclusion would fulfill the requirement of attracting new fans to the Prog Archives.

Probably entirely true. But there are kids out there whose first exposure to Phil Collins would be that very same Tarzan II movie that Philippe posted. Probably remote, but maybe there is hope to convert someone while they are still young and convertible.

Maybe even more remote, but just maybe, Phil would happen to google himself (instead of his usual googling his prog fans) and come across the site and see his name on a prog site and remember that he is a prog musician and decide to record some more prog music. Probably never happen in this time continuum but what the heck I thought I would throw it out there.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:28

rileydog22 wrote:

Wasn't the infamous ice show Rick Wakeman? I don't think ELP had anything like that.

Sorry yes. That's right. I knew it involved somebody who was a really good keyboard player. Memory lapse on who it was.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:29

E-Dub wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

Why is it here? Because its here. Roll the Bones.

Its here because mailto:M@x - M@x says its here.

Doesn't mean all of us here have to like it. Right?

Free to speak my mind...I hope.

E

Absolutely, and I fully respect your opinion.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:37

The Doctor wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site).

I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.

Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself.

Is not the merging of rock with jazz one of the two key components of being a prog band? Rock and classical and Rock and jazz. But alas again I am not trying to argue that he is progressive, I am proposing that he is prog-related because he is a key member of one of the major prog rock bands and thus related (again outside of the scope of the current website definition of prog-related).

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:40

rushfan4 wrote:

darqdean wrote:

::snip::

I like the way you're thinking Scott. I still think those same fans would still find their way here through the Genesis connection without the need to add (or upset

) Phill.

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What?

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:49

rushfan4 wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site).

I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.

Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself.

I guess the question then is how far do you take that. If Tony Banks' postman puts out an album of traditional country-western songs, do we include that in prog-related?

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:56

The Doctor wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site).

I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.

Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself.

I guess the question then is how far do you take that. If Tony Banks' postman puts out an album of traditional country-western songs, do we include that in prog-related?

It depends did Tony crack a smile upon the release of his postman's album?

Obviously, mailto:M@x - M@x and the admins perogative would take precedence to any inclusions in these type cases and based on the limited number included in this category my guess is they would continue to keep it limited.

My thought would be keeping it to major artists. As with anything though there are only so few admins and so little time for adding real progressive rock artists and as always that would take priority over the prog-related artists. And if there are offers to add information for lesser known artists such as Laura Meade then these could be added as well.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:05

rushfan4 wrote:

Rushfan,. the Phil Collins fans are no longer young and convertible, most of them are in their late 20's or mid 30's, hias last album was a faillure in sales, the young kinds see him as a joke.

Even if they were young, it's hard to change somebody who is an avid POP listener into Prog, the chances of converting a hil Collins fan into a VDGG fan are the same as converting an Eminem fan.

But the chances you will loose 10 stable members are much bigger, so the cost - benefit balance is not convinient.

But most important, this is a Prog site that must be a guide and database of Prog:

Phil Collins is not a Prog artist
Phil Collins is not remortely connected to Prog during his solo career
His addition would be misleading

That's my main concern

Impossible, I was a member in the Genesis Forum when Phil wrote a letter blaming Gabriel fans for not having a reunion, Phil knows what Prog is, he choosed to ignore and insult Prog LITERALLY and multiple tiimes.

The chances he will record an album today are minimum and even if he wanted, he has no experioence writting Prog music,. never had it and never will, he's a good Pop songwritter for those who like it, but he never wrote a Prog note.

Probably never happen in this time continuum but what the heck I thought I would throw it out there.

Oh no a Trekkie!!!!

Iván

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:29

Hi Ivan:

I've been expecting you.

You won't get any arguments from me on your points, as I did preface my points with the comments that the odds of these happening were remote. I think that fans of the Tarzan movies are probably under the age of 20 (if not under the age of 10) but even so you are most likely correct that listening to that soundtrack is not going to turn them into prog rock fans. I have two cousins that are in their early teens whose first exposure to Phil Collins was the Tarzan soundtrack, and they now at least like him as a solo artist. That being said I doubt that they will ever become prog fans because they are into the pop of their generation.

My hope would be that including a biography similar to what was included in my first post would appease those such as yourself who do not want him included. Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene. I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum. I think the first few weeks would consist of members either ignoring his existence on the forum or reviews giving him 1 or 2 stars that say that it is poor or for fans only. I would hope that these reviews would be kept civil, but I imagine that Easy Livin' could be busy cleaning up some language in a few reviews. The inclusion of these type of reviews would only enforce your position in regards to his solo career.

Thank you for your attention to this thread.

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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:32

Ivan's right: Phil Collins has no love lost for "prog". From the Genesis special I watched, these are not verbatim but pretty damn close:

"If I was stranded on a desert island, I'd much rather have a Sam & Dave or Aretha Franklin record than anything by Yes or Pink Floyd"

(talking about the emergence of punk) "They talked about these (prog) bands, saying they're such crap, they're dinosaurs. And I was like, 'yeah, they really are crap'. And I was later horrified to learn that we (Genesis) were among the bands that they were talking about!"

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:35

rushfan4 wrote:

Hi Ivan:

I've been expecting you.

So was I. He had to sharpen his knives first though.

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:36

Rushfan4 wrote:

He is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.

Not at all. Genesis was one of the most important prog bands, but apart from Genesis and Brand X, Phil Collins has not contributed one single bit to the prog music scene. Genesis and Brand X are already on PA.

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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:37

Instead of "Addition", ¿how about "extraterrestrialization"?. Let's launch him into space. He was one hell of a drummer, playing in one of the most lovely bands ever, and all he did was ruin it. Ok, ok, let's use Tony Banks as fuel, same charges.

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¡Beware of the Bee!

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:38

rushfan4 wrote:

Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene. I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum.

they may not leave, but they'll consider it

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:42

Atavachron wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

they may not leave, but they'll consider it

Why would anyone consider leaving this site over the addition of an admittedly controversial figure in the prog world. Sure, debate his inclusion, yell about it if you must, but leave?

That makes no sense to me.

Besides, where are they gonna go? Back to the real world?

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:44

rileydog22 wrote:

Rushfan4 wrote:

He is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.

For what it is worth, I just went to AllMusic to check on his credits. In addition to Genesis, Brand X, and his solo work, he is also credited for drums and percussion on various albums for Brian Eno, Al DiMeola, Robert Fripp, Camel, Mike Oldfield and others. I can't say if any of that was progressive or to what level he contributed, but these are all some pretty well known progressive rock bands that he at least had some involvement with.

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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46

Why should he be in here just because he's a former member of Genesis?
With that logic Crowded House should be in her because Neil Finn and his drummer were ex Split Enz, or else the Police because Stuart Copeland was in Curver Air, or else Motorhead because Lemmy was in Hawkwind.
Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity

Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46

Collin's work IS indeed prog related, because it is the very antonim of prog... with this explanation included (as bio), I think he would fit perfectly... Wink

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¡Beware of the Bee!

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46

OK let's face it and stop being polite... the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46

The Doctor wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

they may not leave, but they'll consider it

Why would anyone consider leaving this site over the addition of an admittedly controversial figure in the prog world. Sure, debate his inclusion, yell about it if you must, but leave?

That makes no sense to me.

Besides, where are they gonna go? Back to the real world?

Thank you Doctor. Agreed. That would mean they would have to get a life.

Is that possible???

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:47

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work. There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion. For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson. Should he be in the Archives?

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:51

NaturalScience wrote:

Ivan's right: Phil Collins has no love lost for "prog". From the Genesis special I watched, these are not verbatim but pretty damn close:

"If I was stranded on a desert island, I'd much rather have a Sam & Dave or Aretha Franklin record than anything by Yes or Pink Floyd"

(talking about the emergence of punk) "They talked about these (prog) bands, saying they're such crap, they're dinosaurs. And I was like, 'yeah, they really are crap'. And I was later horrified to learn that we (Genesis) were among the bands that they were talking about!"

I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere. But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context. But to that end, unfortunately prog has that stigma that has caused many an artist want to avoid the label of being a prog artist.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:56

Atavachron wrote:

OK let's face it and stop being polite... the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy

A common feeling amongst prog fans and fully expected. I respect that. Mikael Akerfeldt's death growls cause this same skin crawling sensation to me. Opeth is here and I respect that too. (And please I am not comparing Opeth to Phil Collins). Although I dislike Opeth's vocals their music is extremely prog.

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:02

rushfan4 wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

OK let's face it and stop being polite... the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy

it's more than that... and Akerfeldt's vocals are suppose to make you feel that way LOL

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:04

rileydog22 wrote:

What he did for Eno, Fripp, Oldfield, etc. was session work. There is no room in PA for session musicians who happen to record for prog groups on occasion. For example, Jack Bruce sat in with Zappa, McLaughlin, and Jon Anderson. Should he be in the Archives?

I forgot to mention that he also appeared on a couple of Peter Gabriel albums and Voyage of the Acolyte with Steve Hackett. But I digress since that doesn't add to the fact that it was session work. As far as inclusion for session work I guess it would depend upon what the session work consisted of. Playing the notes that were presented before him or being told this is what we have, make it work.

In regards to Jack Bruce, if Cream were here as proto-prog (I'm not certain whether they are or not) then I would support Jack Bruce on the premise that he is prog-related or at least proto-prog related.

Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work). Weak argument, but an observation.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:06

Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity

Just couldn't stop laughing, genius man, pure gennius.

Iván

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity

Just couldn't stop laughing, genius man, pure gennius.

Iván

Any reference to Hitler in such away could be construed as extremely offensive so I would be careful there. Unfortunately to take it a step further, if God forbid Hitler were still alive today, he might be the one who is offended.

P.S. I made a similar comment in the thread I created suggesting a list of rejected artists, except that I used George W. Bush as my Nobel Peace Prize winner.

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:20

The%20ResidentsThe%20Third%20Reich%20N%20Roll%20album%20cover

If H. references are good enough for the Residents, then they're good enough for me.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:26

rushfan4 wrote:

I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere. But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context.

No Rushfan I'm a Genesis fan and have everything they have released until ATTW3 (the last studio album I bought) Duke and Ibnvissible Touch that were gifts (IT is brand new LP sealed for sale

), plus all the DVD's, bootlegs, books and dovcumentaries.

And that's not the worst:

Q: In retrospect, how much did punk rock really affect your life?
Well, I always felt that, hey, this big shake up ain't going to affect us, because there's substance to what we're doing. I never really felt threatened by it. But what I did feel was that it was going to get rid of a lot of that crap that was around.
In a concert of the ABACAB tour asked I believe for Giant Hogweed (not sure about the song) and Collins replied "We dopn't play that crap anymore"
In 1981 on Groenoordhallen Netherlands, Collins insulted the audience who claimed for old material cklhallenging them to meet him after the show, and was booed during a good part of the show.

He spoke a lot of crap.

Iván

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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:32

If Phil gets added some people will walk I would say. Stern%20Smile

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:34

if read carefully, Collins does not really fit the PR definition--

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre

Collin's solo work did not demonstrably receive "clear musical influence of this genre"

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community,

again, not applicable to Collin's as a solo artist

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

nope

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

Iván Melgar Morey

there you have it Smile

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:34

I'm confident that Phil won't get added.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:35

Below is a following quote from Evergrey. I suppose that we should now remove them from the site.

Evergrey is often labelled as prog rock/metal band. How fo you feel about that? Is this correct, or would like to describe your music otherwise?
Tom reacts very energetic: "We are not prog metal. We are trying to kill that label. I would say: a good combination of metal and melody. That are the good songs!
Rikard: "It's prog metal in a sense that we allowed us to have very heavy metal parts and various things."
Tom: That's the problem all journalists have with us: they can't label us. It is a good thing for us, cause we created our own identity and have done what we wanted. We are sick and tired of that label."
Michael (bassplayer): "The problem is when people haven't heard us and someone says that it is prog metal. The other person says: 'I don't like that so I am not going to listen to it.' That's the problem with labelling."

If Phil made these comments and they weren't taken out of context it is an added reason for those who dislike him to dislike him, but unfortunately, as you very well know, it is not uncommon for artist to deny that they are prog because there is a certain stigma attached to that.

Edit: To give credit where credit is due I copied the Evergrey inverview from another website. Below is the link to that interview in case anyone is interested.

http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showinterview.php?id=1012&lang=en - http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showinterview.php?id=1012&lang=en

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:39

Atavachron wrote:

if read carefully, Collins does not really fit the PR definition--

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre

Collin's solo work did not demonstrably receive "clear musical influence of this genre"

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community,

again, not applicable to Collin's as a solo artist

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

nope

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

Iván Melgar Morey

there you have it Smile

Agreed 100%. This comment was posted in another thread in response to a comment made by Easy Livin' in the "what is related in prog related" thread. In that thread he posted that an artist was considered prog-related if they were once a member in a prog band. He also begrudgingly mentioned Phil Collins as a candidate under this interpretation of the Prog-Related section.

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:46

rushfan4 wrote:

you may be over-simplifying what EasyLivin said, or meant-- if the only or most important quality for ProgRelated was membership in a prog band, it would get out of hand... but again, read the definition, it's rather clear; "We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be.."

This definition was made for Collins.. it screams out DON"T ADD HIM FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD !

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:51

For those who didn't see this, this is Bob's quote:

Easy Livin wrote:

Prog related is as much about a personal feeling for what it is as prog itself is. The Admin team work pretty much from the same hymn sheet, as we can reach agreement on most proposals. Even then though, there is from time to time disagreement among us. In such cases, if there is a clear majority, that prevails. Otherwise, or if we think the proposal is particularly controversial, mailto:M@x - M@x will have the final say. We don't all agree with all the additions by any means. I was strongly against the Beatles for example. We are a team though, and are happy to support a decision when it is made (the Beatles was mailto:M@xs - M@x's by the way).

My own perspective is that Prog Related bands are those who have a clear relationship with prog, but are not a prog band as such. Perhaps they have released an album which is out of character with the bulk of their output, which has strong prog elements (see Wishbone Ash). Perhaps their music is prog in a pop context, such as 10CC. Perhaps they have released one or more concept albums which bring successive songs together to form something substantially more than the sum of the parts (dare I say Boston!). All solo artists who are members of prog bands are prog related (except Phil Collins!). I believe it is important to ahve the catalogues of such artists added, if only to demonstrate how their solo careers use or do not use prog. How many of us have bought albums by solo memebrs of prog bands, only to find that they bear no relation to prog. I believe the site can provide a real service here by listing such artists, OK including Phil!

Taking the phrase literally, of course they are related to prog. This does not extend to memebrs of prog related or proto prog bands, or to band such as Mike and the Mechanics who have a member who is also in a prog band.

These are just my own thoughts of course.

Can I also go back to a comment in the Boston thread suggesting there were inconsistencies in the Prog Related additionsand the admission process for them. As long as we all have our own diverse opinions, there will always seem to be inconsistencies. These are perceived as a result of the old, X is more prog than Y argument. The reality is that where one person thinks a band should be added, another does not, that is where the inconsistency really is!

Often people will shout foul because a band they want added is still waiting. They don't actually object to the band being proposed, they just think that the case for another is stronger.

Interestingly, the number of bands rejected for PR since the Admin team took on overseeing it is very low indeed, 2 or 3 I think. Many people think that artists have been rejected when they have not. Those who come to mind include Bowie, Hendrix, Journey, Toto, etc. We've never been asked for permission to add any of these.

On top of all this, there are the purists who have not bought into the site policy of using prog related bands to bring people to the site. They object to every prog related proposal and bemoan people "wasting their time" on such bands.

Finally, can I point out just how successful this site is. We are often the first site to come up in Google searches for bands and albums. We have become the reference point of choice for literally thousands of people who don't actually join the site, but find it an indispensable resource. We have contributed enormously to the resurgence of prog.

If people search for information about say Black Sabbath (A band selected by me at random), they may well think, "I didn't realise BS had a relationship with prog". They come to the site to investigate further, and discover what that relationship is. They are presented on the front page with reviews of many fine prog bands, they see our top 100 albums and investigate further. They look at the forum, and find it to be friendly, informative and lively. Subtly we get them hooked. We sell them prog by playing on their interests where they overlap with prog.

This startegy was always mailto:M@xs - M@x's vision for the site. It is he who has mastered the Google search and steered us towards this goal. He takes the plaudits for the vision, and our members, and especially our collaborators, take the credit for making it happen.

Prog related is an essential part of this strategy.

Yes we have lost fine members along the way, we have seen serious disagreements about the site direction, but let's look at the positve side for a change. This is a huge success story. This is a wonderful site. This is our site.

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:00

a great post from Bob, and I fully agree, I also wouldn't be surprised if Collins is eventually added.. but he simply doesn't fit the definition of ProgRelated as it currently stands

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:04

rushfan4 wrote:

Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work). Weak argument, but an observation.

Sorry to quote myself but I just re-read Bob's post and the comment that a member of a proto-prog artist would not be included. So in that case I would not include Jack Bruce. And at least at this point, I did look and Cream is not here as proto-prog, so all and all I would say no.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:16

Thank you everyone for your comments and keeping this debate civil. I must call it a night. I certainly hope that you don't revoke my membership while I am gone. Also, I have hired Britney Spear's ex-bodyguard for my protection while I sleep, and I think that he might be a Phil Collins fan, although I might need to keep one eye open in case he is a Peter Gabriel fan.

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Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 00:39

NO, NO, AND NO AGAIN.

Sure, the man is brilliant as a pop musician (...I liked "Testify", as well as his first two albums....*is shot*) and as a progressive drummer (...and singer....gots to love his performances on "For Absent Friends" and "Squonk"....). But he does NOT belong in the archives. WTF is progressive about "I SEE UR TRUE COLLLLOURS", or "U CAN'T HURRY LURVES", or "SHE SAID 'SIR CAN U HELP ME'", or whatever "Another Day in Paradise" says????????

So he hit a few hi-hats for Brand X and Genesis (we can all thank Phil for The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Selling England by the Pound ever going gold America, fellow proggers...) and Brian Eno and everybody who has ever existed. That's great, love the work, but that doesn't justify an inclusion in the archives.

(Peter Gabriel's presence, on the other hand, is justifiable: he never did abandon his progressive roots, AKA "Peter Gabriel III" and "So". "Mercy Street" is not your typical 80s garbage.....)

Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 01:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

I don't know about these such things but I have read similar comments elsewhere. But I have also read comments that these things were taken out of context.

No Rushfan I'm a Genesis fan and have everything they have released until ATTW3 (the last studio album I bought) Duke and Ibnvissible Touch that were gifts (IT is brand new LP sealed for sale

), plus all the DVD's, bootlegs, books and dovcumentaries.

And that's not the worst:

Q: In retrospect, how much did punk rock really affect your life?
Well, I always felt that, hey, this big shake up ain't going to affect us, because there's substance to what we're doing. I never really felt threatened by it. But what I did feel was that it was going to get rid of a lot of that crap that was around.
In a concert of the ABACAB tour asked I believe for Giant Hogweed (not sure about the song) and Collins replied "We dopn't play that crap anymore"
In 1981 on Groenoordhallen Netherlands, Collins insulted the audience who claimed for old material cklhallenging them to meet him after the show, and was booed during a good part of the show.

He spoke a lot of crap.

Iván

My Gosh that man is pure evil!! Dead

Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 02:25

I can only think of two arguments in favor for adding him.

1. The argument for completeness. If it is the goal of PA to be a complete resources on everything remotely connected to prog, then Phil should be here, as should every other member of a prog band that went on to other things.

2. The argument for enhancing the site's usefulness. Prog afficianados might find some value in information on Phil's career after Genesis and the inevitable stream of one and two star reviews that would result.

Sorry, rf4, but I can't think of any better arguments than that. Those might get him once his music has passed from living memory, but probably not much sooner than that.

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 02:38

Su su sudio

(I like PC...but even I, who usually favor any, any addition, have to think twice or thrice on this one).

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:26

You all know how open-minded I am in music matters, but this time I feel I have to put my foot down hard. Such an addition would destroy the site in more ways than one. The loss of credibility would be HUGE, and the consequences as regards many established members no less so.

Personally, as flexible and understanding as I have always been, I would seriously question remaining on a site on behalf of which I have been working hard for the past two years, which would nonetheless choose such a controversial path. And I'm sure many other collabs would do the same.

As I wrote yesterday in another thread: is it really worth it? Confused

Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:29

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 03:49

I don't think Phil should be here either and never have done (or Mike And The Mechanics for that matter). I genuinely enjoy 'Face Value' but it's not prog (some nice jazz rock bits on it though). Every album which followed is even further away from it.

But I can't believe the hatred he seems to get here. Yes, he has made some remarks about some bands and tried to distance himself from it. But if that's cause for someone to get such harsh treatment, then some things Steven Wilson has said and some quotes I've seen from Radiohead (many, in fact!) and even Marillion in recent years will classify them for it too. Tony Banks has done it too; I read quotes with him saying that he never saw Genesis as being a progressive rock band but now he explicitly refers to their earlier work as being just that in sentences like 'our earlier progressive stuff'. Basically, I think Genesis went out of their way to distance themselves from bands like ELP who crashed and burned after punk, let's face it. I don't necessarily agree with their attitude but I can understand it.

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:03

James, I hope you understood my point.... I don't HATE Phil Collins (though I may not find him a particularly nice human being), but I think he has no place here based on purely musical reasons. I don't really care what he said about prog, and I am well aware of the fact other people have said the same things too.

However, I am worried about the effects such an addition would have on the whole fabric of the site. Let's face it, there are lots of members who would like to see genuinely progressive acts added, and see their suggestions refused on the basis that they are 'progressive, but not prog'. What would their reaction be if PC was added, and not, for instance, people like Laurie Anderson? Members, even very hard-working, valid ones, would leave in droves, while I am quite sure the addition would not attract any potential new members.

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:09

^I wasn't addressing your post anyway, Raffaella. Apologies if you thought I was. I'm certainly not in favour of his inclusion here either, nor AOR bands like Boston that I've seen mentioned lately.

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:25

A general comment; please ensure the debate remains about the music, and does not get personal.

Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:30

Ghost Rider wrote:

You all know how open-minded I am in music matters, but this time I feel I have to put my foot down hard. Such an addition would destroy the site in more ways than one. The loss of credibility would be HUGE, and the consequences as regards many established members no less so.

Maybe I wouldn't use the same words, but those are my thoughts too.

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"PA's own GI Joe!"

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 04:35

As I've just mentioned in another thread, I've jsut noticed that PC is already on our list of artists rejected for Prog related.

Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:19

Easy Livin wrote:

As I've just mentioned in another thread, I've jsut noticed that PC is already on our list of artists rejected for Prog related.

Bless you people Smile

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:50

Like Raff, I am open minded with regard to music and as part of the Crossover team I evaluate bands that have pop-influences on a daily basis for inclusion into the PA. It is a thin line and we always have to consider the sensibilities of other forum members during this evalation. To that end I believe we generally err on the side of caution and ensure that the prog outweighs the pop, (though some may disagree

). I would recommend the same level of caution here.

Losing established members from this site would be a bad thing for whatever reason, but in this instance it would not be because they are being fickle and registering dislike Phil Collins, but because they did not like the direction in which the PA would appear to be going. At this moment in time there are two "camps" regarding the inclusiveness of the Archive, both have sound reasons for the way they think and ultimately, whatever the final resolution, it will be to the benefit of the site (debate is healthy, it prevents stagnation). However, this particular "issue" is outside that debate and IMO would do more harm than good to both viewpoints.

Similarily I also believe that the image and credibility of the PA would be tarnished by his addition. Not because of him personally, but because the reviews of his albums will not be representative of what the PA is about. No Phil Collins fan is going to like the negative reviews his solo albums will attract, on reading them they will not explore the PA further, they will either jump to his defense or walk away. Nobody comes here looking for a negative review of their favourite artist - yes we take onboard any negative reviews when looking for other albums to buy, but it is the positive ones we use when deciding those purchases. I believe a wave of negative reviews for any artist makes the Archive look bad.

I agree with Scott that many artists turned their back on the Prog tag at a time when it was a dirty word only to protect their careers, others (like Everygrey) simply do not like to be pigeon-holed as it limits their potential audience. But in Phil's case it was different and I do not feel that Iván took those quotes out of context - there is an interview on Phil's own website where he makes similar statements. Even during his tenure as Genesis's drummer, he was activiely involved in simplifying their music, reducing odd time meters to standard signatures (in a TV documentary recently he demonstrated how he converted one of Rutherford's unusual rhythms by adding an extra beat). That said, he did not apply that methodology to Brand X because is vision of BX was as a Jazz-fusion band.

He is here already for his work with Progressive bands and that alone is a worthy achievement.

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What?

Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 05:56

Brought to you by the letter D. As usual, Darg with some pretty definitive points. Wink

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"PA's own GI Joe!"

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:04

thank you Andi

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What?

Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:08

"That sounds very nice Robert."

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"PA's own GI Joe!"

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:48

Hi All,

Well, I survived the night so Britney's ex-bodyguard must not have been a Peter Gabriel fan. I'm suspecting that from a lot of the posts that I read since from last night, my very first post was not read. How is PA's creditibility hurt for having Phil Collins on the site if his biography reads in a manner as I have proposed? It is as about specific as possible in stating that Phil Collins as a solo artist is not a prog rock artist.

Secondly, again this proposal was based 100% around Easy Livin's comment that an artist should be included in Prog-related if they were a former member of a progressive rock band.

Thirdly, Ghost of Morphy's comment above is the exact reason why I feel that Phil Collins should be here. My difference of opinion with most of you would consist on the idea that Phil Collins solo career is 99% non-prog, while the rest of you think it is 100% non-prog.

To Sean Trane, no, I am not the person who proposed Boston, but yes, I am one who would support their inclusion in Prog-related. They do have a concept album and they can stand toe to toe with any progressive rock band in pretentiousness. But I digress.

I haven't seen Bob's other post regarding Phil Collins having been already rejected as a Prog-related artist. Despite my starting this thread, I have absolutely no problem with having Phil Collins not included, as again, the whole point of this thread was in regards to my very first post which offered a compromise biography which I had hoped would appease those who were adamantly against his inclusion, and was also a follow-up to a highly respected member of the forum's post which begrudgingly stated the same thing.

One last reason (I think) for why I feel Phil Collins should be included also is to address another excellent point made by Easy Livin' in his post. Many times a listener who is a fan of one band will want to give that band's solo artists and spin-off bands a listen in the hopes that they will have the same sound. To save such a listener from the same disappointment that most of you have, this site would be performing the service that it has set out to provide by telling this listener that Phil Collins as a solo artist is absolutely not a prog artist. If his solo albums all show 1 and 2 averages this should be very clear to that listener that they probably would be disappointed in his solo albums if they are fans of progressive rock. Yes, this is very obvious to those that are well-versed on these matters, but I am sure there are also those that have been under a rock for the last 20 years or born yesterday so to speak who might benefit from this inclusion.

Again, I have no problem with his being rejected and I have no problem with any member who dislikes Phil's solo career or who vehemently disagrees with his being included. Within a forum thread there is no way for me to know whether or not any of the posters read my very first post which started this thread or if their long developed reject reflex kicked in just at the title of the thread. I know that many times people just see the last post and react towards that. None of the posts seem to address my very first post and all that I ask is for opinions in regards to that.

Thank you again for your participation in this friendly debate and for all attempts at trying to keep this civil. I know how difficult that is considering the thread subject. I haven't gone outside yet so there may be some of you laying in ambush outside waiting for me but hopefully not.

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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 06:53

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

Reflects this site's tendency to tremendous inconsistency, often through some peculiar group prejudices. There are a few proggie moments and a few more jazz rock/funky moments too, in Collins' cannon (amongst admittedly a lot of pop-slop earning the artful dodger multi-millions of dosh) - which exceed those of artists who have found their place in PA.

Just reminded myself that a good biog of a solo artists should include example of session work in the genre. Away from Genesis and Brand X, Phil Collins has done a lot of this in prog-based albums (Eno's ambient recordings), and especially jazz rock fusion albums (e.g. with Al DiMeola). Which reinforce his creditials as prog or prog-related (stand-alone) artist.

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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:19

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope for Collins's solo career.

Is this the same person insisting on Boston's inclusion

???

I addressed this partially in my previous post but I wanted to expand upon it a bit. I am not as wise when it comes to the interpretation of "what is prog" as you may be Hugues. One of my purposes for frequenting this site is to expand upon and learn from others "what is the meaning of "prog"?". (Climbs mountain and asks Prog Dahli Lama, who surprisingly resembles Mr. Fripp (No offense meant to anyone who looks to the Dahli Lama as a spiritual leader)).

To that respect, I respect that Boston is considered an AOR band. What is the difference between a well-crafted rock/pop song and a poorly crafted prog song? To my untrained ear, a band like Boston sounds 100 times closer to what I consider to be the prog sound than a band say, like Meshuggah. I like "commercial" prog metal but have difficulty with the experimental/technical side of the prog metal sound. To that end it has been deemed appropriate by the powers that be that this experimental/technical side of metal belongs here. I respect that decision. Doesn't mean that I have to listen to those bands. Please Mikeenregalia don't let this have you cross me off your Christmas card list.

I support Prog Metal as a viable category of prog. I just have a lesser tolerance level.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:23

Ghost Rider wrote:

James, I hope you understood my point.... I don't HATE Phil Collins (though I may not find him a particularly nice human being), but I think he has no place here based on purely musical reasons. I don't really care what he said about prog, and I am well aware of the fact other people have said the same things too.

However, I am worried about the effects such an addition would have on the whole fabric of the site. Let's face it, there are lots of members who would like to see genuinely progressive acts added, and see their suggestions refused on the basis that they are 'progressive, but not prog'. What would their reaction be if PC was added, and not, for instance, people like Laurie Anderson? Members, even very hard-working, valid ones, would leave in droves, while I am quite sure the addition would not attract any potential new members.

Raff, I certainly have no desire to upset you. We have had some very pleasant and cordial conversation amongst other threads and I hope that you understand that this is just a continuation in your quest to better define what is prog-related. Also, I know that Micky has some connections with Michigan so he could probably track me down and whack me for you. For that matter, he hasn't posted yet. He isn't on his way is he???? Runs and hides in bomb shelter.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:49

By the way, I hope that at the very least whether you agree with my posts or not that you are at least finding the conversation enjoyable and at least borderline insightful. I have tried to keep it entertaining with some eye-rolling comments.

To that end, we have all had those situations where you walk away from a conversation wishing that you had said something else. To that end, I just had two.

Upon further reflection the wise man on the mountain does not resemble Robert Fripp at all. In fact, he looks much more like the omniscient and all-knowing mailto:M@x - M@x ..

(After all, Mr. Fripp is another beloved member of this site who has rejected the prog rock label at times throughout his career).

Secondly upon further reflection, the bomb shelter was not a bomb shelter at all. It was a Panic Room, where Riverside is playing 24 hours a day.

Peace, and hopes to a least an LOL, if not an all out ROTFL.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 07:52

Thanks Scott, the debate has been enjoyable and mercifully civil on all sides. Even if nothing happens, at least it has blown away a few cobwebs and cleared the air a little.

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What?

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:02

rushfan4 wrote:

You're not upsetting me at all.. Unfortunately, these days real life is doing enough of that! LOL

On the contrary, I appreciated the very civil, intelligent and constructive way the discussion was conducted, which is so rare in our modern society. Personally, though I don't like PC's solo output, nor do I consider it prog, I wouldn't throw a fit over the addition because I want to keep the site pure... Though I have tried to illustrate my own objections on purely musical grounds, I am also worried about the consequences of such a move. I still have nightmares about what happened when I added Iron Maiden and BOC, and I don't want to see people at each other's throats. I love this site not only for the music, but because of the friends I have made, and of course for the importance it has had in my private life. Seeing it torn by strife would really pain me a lot.

BTW, Micky is at work now, poor darling Cry

... Didn't have the time to jump into the conversation, but hopefully he'll do so tonight. He lived in Michigan when he was in his early 20s, though, and I suppose he's not been there in a long time.

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:28

I have no issues about maintaining the "purity" of the site (progressive rock by its very nature is a hybrid, mixing rock with classical, jazz, folk, etc) but I feel Phil Collins' solo music does not meet the current criteria for Prog Related.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:50

darqdean wrote:

Thanks Scott, the debate has been enjoyable and mercifully civil on all sides. Even if nothing happens, at least it has blown away a few cobwebs and cleared the air a little.

Thank you Darqdean. In response to your previous post, I would like to clarify that I am not suggesting that Ivan took those quotes out of context. I saw an interview with Phil within the past couple of years where he commented that things that have been attributed to him have been taken out of context. Agreeably, since they have reformed Genesis and prog has gained some momentum and he has lost some of his fanbase, it was in his best PR interest to walk away from or try to reverse those previous comments that have been attributed to him. I lack any authority whatsoever in these regards, so I am not trying to attribute or dis-attribute these comments from Phil. Assuming that he did say them, as he probably did (Ivan, please advise if I have just committed slander/libel), it was at the very least disrespectful to those fans of prog era Genesis.

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 09:02

Ghost Rider wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

You're not upsetting me at all.. Unfortunately, these days real life is doing enough of that! LOL

... Didn't have the time to jump into the conversation, but hopefully he'll do so tonight. He lived in Michigan when he was in his early 20s, though, and I suppose he's not been there in a long time.

Thank you Raff. It is a shame that you and Micky are separated by borders and silly but unfortunately necessary (to a degree) immigration laws.

It is unfortunate when these type discussions do not remain civil. Music is after all entertainment and meant to be enjoyable. As you have so elegantly pointed out many times "what is prog" is subjective, and "prog related is not prog", and we all have many varied opinions.

What are your thoughts in regards to my first post? Assuming Phil were to be accepted to Prog-related based on his relation to two Prog bands, do you not think that a biography of this type would not maintain the integrity of Prog Archives? It is very specific that Phil's solo career is not prog. I would even suggest that Ivan write this biography by beginning it with "A gun was held to my head but we are adding PC only because he was a member of Genesis and Brand X and his solo output is absolutely positively not progressive rock". And ending it with, "PC was added over Rushfan4's dead body because since he was the one who was suggested it he was the one who was drawn and quartered".

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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 11:23

Using public access Internet, I'm rather constrained for time here. But I wonder if this new Phil Collins topic will match the epic Phil vs Peter / Evil Phil destroys Genesis / Is Phil the ANtichrist threads that we all used to dread, but neverthless obsessively & heatedly participate in past times ...

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:09

The T wrote:

Su su sudio

(I like PC...but even I, who usually favor any, any addition, have to think twice or thrice on this one).

I have no idea what a su-su-sudio is, but If those same lyrics were being growled by Mikael Akerfeldt the discussion would be entirely different.

Kind of a scary thought.

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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:09

Not a chance Debs!

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:17

rushfan4 wrote:

Thank you Raff. It is a shame that you and Micky are separated by borders and silly but unfortunately necessary (to a degree) immigration laws.

First of all, thank you for the solidarity. I won't go into the subject of immigration laws, though I'll say only one thing: no European country would ever keep legally married people separated for months waiting for a very expensive visa. I am almost 47, and I feel that every minute wasted is one step closer to the end of my life.

Back to the issue at hand, I am not so sure even a bio written in block capitals using the biggest font available and very bright colours would serve any purpose. Let's face it, people here keep saying things like, "what are Queen/The Beatles/Iron Maiden, etc doing here? They're not prog", when there have been countless threads and definitions trying to explain that PR does not mean prog, but exactly what the name says. People tend to see only what they want to see, and in any case not many users read either bios or genre definitions. I do, but I am not the majority. Sorry to sound so negative, but I've been here for over two years, and seen a lot of occurrences of people refusing to see evidence.

Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 13:54

Raff,

Same response to both of your paragraphs. Unfortunate but true.

Good look with the Visa issue. I definitely hope that it is resolved sooner rather than later (as do you obviously).

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 15:12

rushfan4 wrote:

Hi All,

I'm glad this thread has remained civil, it's my turn to make it uncivil , just joking.

Any site specialized in a determined genre or style, keeps it credibility adding artists that belong in the parameters of the genre or are at least related with it. Phil Collins not only never released a single Prog solo song (his works with Eno, etc are credited in the Eno page) but was the most bitter enemyy of Prog in the 80's and 90's while his trio was incredibly popular.

Luike it or not, for Progheads Phil is a symbol of anti Prog, I know very few Progheads that even respect him for anything besides hios career as drummer, it's simply the guy that represents the worst of the 80's and the hatred agaiinst ´prog.

Yes, we would loose credibility among Progheads, that like it or not (again) are our target audiennce, no matter how many non Prog artists you find when googling their names, bvery few Pop fans wioll ever enter to a site called PROG Archives, so the only members that we should cvount on are the Progheads.

Secondly, again this proposal was based 100% around Easy Livin's comment that an artist should be included in Prog-related if they were a former member of a progressive rock band.

But it's understood that they must aditionally have at least made something that_

Influenced Prog or
Was clearly influenced by Prog or
Has at least a few Prog elements blended with mainstream.

It0s understood, clear and in our official page as a requisite.

Billy Joel played on a Proggy disaster called Attila...Must we include him?
Elton John played in the Gentle Giant predecessor, ditioned for King Crimson and if I'm not wrong for Gentle Giant...Must we add him?
Bobb Galdoff and the Boomtown Rats made one Proggy song (I Don't like Mondays) I'm sure is more than 1% of their career because they don't have 100 songs,....Is this enough to add them?
John Mayhew played in Genesis before Phiol Collins, must we add him?
The Buggles played in Yes...Must we add them?
What about Missing Persons?...Terry Bozzio played there and even more related because I believe the lead singer was his wife, so also related by marriiage.

The question is wghere to draw the limitt, Phil Collins never made a contribution to Prog except as member of Genesis, Brand X and session musiccian of a couple of Prog artists, so his solo careershould be out of the question.

Even when I'm against Boston's inclusion, I find more arguiments in their proposal, at least they didn't expressed hate and disrespect fior Prog, even when they didn't made a prog or Prog related album.

I know you are just stating your position that is respectable, but I believe this site has already made too many compromises, most of them necessary, it was born as a PROGRESSIVE ROCK site4, now we are including barely Prog bands and even influential non Prog artists, but everything has a limitt, including a Prog basher is way too much IMHO.

That's OK for a general music site as Allmusic, but not for us, if we are making a service telling that Phil Collins is not a Prog Artist, we should make the same service with Michael jackson, Boney M and Earth Wind / Fire (who played in ABACAB).

I read your first post and I disagree aboyut adding an artist with a disclaimer, that says almost "We know he doesn't belong here, but we add him anyway" it's unnecesary for Prog Archives and IMO insulting for the artist.

If we do that, we should also add a John Mayhew bio saying AS A SOLO ARTIST HE HAS NEVER RELEASED ANY WORK, HE WORKS AS A STAGE CONSTRUCTOR.

Also a George Michael bio wiith a similar statement because there's an album with QUEEN in our database that includes his name.

Sorry, but I believe disclaimers should only be made to correct unintentional mistakes not as a necessary part of his/er bio

Yes, I'm glad of that too, but it helps very much that your original position hasalways been very flexible and not trying to prove you believe you're right and everybody else is wrong, so the credit is mostly your's.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 16:19

Ivan,

You did a fine job at staying civil. And once again I have no disagreements with any of your responses for they come back to the same conclusions that are reached in many of these type threads. Where do we draw the line? That is not an answer that I have nor am I qualified to provide. I will say that everyone's ideas of where that line is drawn are different but that is not necessarily a bad thing, because if everyone agreed there would be nothing to debate, and where is the fun in that.

You have answered my question from the first post. Since you are a prime representative of someone who would disagree with Phil's inclusion. If you don't feel that including him with this disclaimer statement is appropriate then obviously it does not appease the target of my question. (Raff said she didn't think that it would be accepted and I expected that she was correct, but hearing it from you confirms that).

Back to the where do we draw the line angle. In response to your list of various artists, my answer sadly enough would be that if PA is the most comprehensive prog site than unfortunately yes they should be included because of these relationships to prog. Now before you do jump through the computer screen at me I would also say that absolutely none of these artists should be added to PA before every single other potentially true prog rock artists has been considered and added. On the one hand, the sooner this happens the better, because this would mean every single known prog band has made it to the archives and now there is time to add stragglers and hanger-ons. With a little luck this will never happen because there will be a constant influx of new prog bands and prog albums (there goes my bank account).

To that line of thinking I do feel that Phil Collins and certain other artists are a different issue because of their high profiles and their major involvement within the prog scene. However, although I don't feel that including him is as bad of a thing as you do, I know that I am in the minority.

I like PA very much the way it is right now and not including Phil Collins really does not bother me. I mentioned this elsewhere previously, but I feel that a feature that could be added that would make PA even better would be an option similar to All Music Guide where you can click on band members and go to their various biographies and discographies. If this feature ever becomes an option then that would be the only time where I would feel that it was absolutely essential that Phil Collins be included (but still preferably with the disclaimer).

One last thing that I will reiterate from prior threads, I think that M@x , the admins, and the special collaborators have done an excellent job of limiting the entries into prog-related. I forget the exact numbers but there is only one prog-related band added for approximately every 100 prog bands that are added. I am of the opinion, as I think they are, that prog-related bands are a necessary evil to the site, because the bands that are selected for this category meet your definition of prog-related, and in their own special ways they belong here.

All that typing, I feel like Ringo Starr after playing Helter Skelter. For those of you who made it through all this wordiness thank you for sticking with it. Now please remove the needles from your voodoo dolls, the various aches and pains are killing me.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 17:24

Rushfan4 said:

You touched a central issue.

Allmusic can afford this luxury, because even when Rick Wakeman has performed "Return to the Centre of the Earth" with Bonnie Tyler, they can create the link to her bio, being that All Music si a GENERAL MUSIC site, Bonnie Tyler will be there with her complete biography and discography.

Prog Archives is a PROG MUSIC SITE, so even when Bonnie Tyler has played in "Return to the Centre of the Earth", her biography will never be added to Prog Archives, because she's not remotely a Prog or Prog Related album.

So that hyperlink (not hard to create) will be limited (if it ever happens) to the Prog or Prog Related artists, not being Phil one of them.

Iván

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 18:38

rushfan4 wrote:

Tony Levin is a pretty awesome session player who is here (to an extent he is probably best known because of his session work). Weak argument, but an observation.

Actually, T-Lev is here because he has released several solo albums of progressive rock. He would not be here simply for his work on King Crimson, Yes, Peter Gabriel, and Pink Floyd albums.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 18:50

^^ Jack Bruce could be here for his own solo work LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip