Black Sabbath

I am very happy to see that many people support BS's addition to PR, and I agree with most of the arguments you're bringing forward in their favour. However, I also think you're aware that many other members will vehemently disagree with you, and that someone will end up bearing the brunt of that - the Admin Team as a whole, and the person materially responsible for the addition. There are people who still bring up Iron Maiden or Blue Oyster Cult (who were wanted by a good half of the membership) whenever they want to attack the site's policies, and I can assure you it's not pleasant at all.

Time Signature wrote: Well, I'd support adding Black Sabbath to the PA. Their first couple of albums were pretty progressive, blending together blues, hard rock, jazz and aspects of folk/medieval music.   I hope that the admin team won't hold up the process just because people might complain on the forums, given how important Black Sabbath have been to rock music in general.   ... oh, and there's nothing wrong in being a metal head. If you look at the history of metal, you'll find that it's one of the most ecclectic and protean genres in rock/pop music.

I wasn't trying to sl*g off metal heads, I was trying to describe myself as an outside observer.

This is extremely slippery terrain, people.  Sure, prog-RELATED would be okay, but as Raffaella pointed out nobody seems to grasp the RELATED concept.

micky wrote: Melomaniac wrote: This is extremely slippery terrain, people.  Sure, prog-RELATED would be okay, but as Raffaella pointed out nobody seems to grasp the RELATED concept.   And can you imagine the amount of people going : Well, Sabbath are here and you refuse Metallica ??!?!?!??!?   As much as I agree with the initial statement concerning their eventual inclusion, I sincerely think PA can do without Black Sabbath... but I will not complain if they get included, but only in the prog-RELATED category. exactly...   it simply boils down to not being important enough in the grand scheme of things prog to merit the constant... and needless... misundestanding of the notion of prog related.  Though... the fireworks would be worth the price of admission though. You can stretch Prog Related to include damn near anyone in the 70's. The question isn't whether they merit inclusion.... is simply comes down to if the group is worth the fuss.

I am on the fence on this one.  Personally, I have no problem with Black Sabbath as prog-related.  I wasn't there for the historically perspective but I am sure that certainly when the albums were released they weren't considered prog.  There was no such thing as prog metal at that time either though.  Now that there is this prog metal genre and given that Black Sabbath are one of the grandfathers of metal, from a retrospective point of view based on the current prog metal scene you can see elements of some prog metal bands that originated within Black Sabbath's music.  Whether it is the parts that make them prog or the parts that make them metal is probably a difficult distinction.  To an extent, Black Sabbath would be Proto-Prog Metal related.  Yikes!!!!  Of course that is an entirely different can of worms because every one would be lining up and saying that such and such a heavy metal band (insert Judas Priest, etc... here) is also a proto-prog metal related band and belongs on PA.   

irregardless though... I remind you to to consider the fate of Metallica ...  I don't see them ever getting in here. 

Cheesecakemouse wrote: micky wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: Melomaniac wrote: micky wrote: Melomaniac wrote: This is extremely slippery terrain, people.  Sure, prog-RELATED would be okay, but as Raffaella pointed out nobody seems to grasp the RELATED concept.   And can you imagine the amount of people going : Well, Sabbath are here and you refuse Metallica ??!?!?!??!?   As much as I agree with the initial statement concerning their eventual inclusion, I sincerely think PA can do without Black Sabbath... but I will not complain if they get included, but only in the prog-RELATED category. exactly...   it simply boils down to not being important enough in the grand scheme of things prog to merit the constant... and needless... misundestanding of the notion of prog related.  Though... the fireworks would be worth the price of admission though. You can stretch Prog Related to include damn near anyone in the 70's. The question isn't whether they merit inclusion.... is simply comes down to if the group is worth the fuss. Well, we're talking Black Sabbath here, the James Browns of Metal, and therefore, fathers to every prog-metal bands, and they had their proggy moments... so I think that they would be worth the fuss. Well I know they certainly influenced Rush and Kahn, I can hear their imprint on both of these bands and I'm sure there were other prog bands that owe a lot to Sabbath. hahahhaha... well you two can have fun explaining that to posters foaming at the mouths... saying Van Halen is next to be added.. and creating all kinds of havoc simply because they are too stupid to read the definition.  Well I think its irrelevent whether Sabbath influenced prog metal bands or not, the fact is they delt with a lot of eclectic experimentation longer symphonic structured pieces, orchestras, albums such as Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage could easily pass as pure prog albums.

they sure could...  I won't argue against them based on if they were actually prog related or not.  My point is that lots ...many groups had progressive elements.  My objections are purely based on the site.. and what I think is best for it.  Adding a group that like Zeppelin..that everyone knows... everyone has heard... serves little benefit to the site. Adding groups that are lesser known..or misunderstood as artists is a benefit to the site.  Sabbath is IMO simply  not worth the hell that would ensue.  Sure it is temporary... but as some of us know.. the results of that ...often have lasting consequences.  For the first time in long time.. we don't have posters at each others throats.. collabs at each other.  They are free to do ...what we supposedly are here for in the first place...  enjoy prog rock.  Anyhow.. I've spoke my two cents on it. As I said.. this decision is for others to make.. and all that you have said... all that I have said.. have been repeated ad nauseum.  If they weren't added before.... and in light of Metallica's rejection earlier... this isn't worth the time to argue about. 

good luck. with your crusade though   If they are added... I'll look to you to explain to those who disagree and are slightly miffed.

PROGMAN wrote: I believe BS should have an inclusion under Prog Related, their early works IMO opinion had strong Prog tendencies especially Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabotage and Technical Ecstasy.

Sckxyss wrote: I agree with what Micky and Melomaniac have said. I wouldn't be bothered if they were added, but the site as a whole would suffer, without much gain.

Like I suggested earlier, a month long ban on creating threads, posts etc on a controversial inclusion would stop all the trouble, I don't see why politics should be involved here,  after all its about music, and it will help people to learn and grow in their appreciation.
If a band is prog or prog-related they should be here.

Black Sabbath if influenced, directly or indirectly, probably every progmetal band out there.