Black Sabbath
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42240
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 22:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Black Sabbath
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Subject: Black Sabbath
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 04:43
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Now, I've checked to see if Black Sabbath, were already talked about but couldn't find a previous post in this section. Anyway I'm not what you call a metal fan, yes I have some led zep, and yes I have some Rush and King Crimson; both of whom have got strong ties with metal. My presumption of Black Sabbath was just another heavy riff uncreative bunch of noise mongers, boy was I wrong, someone played me war pig and the surrealism in Ozzy's vocals we're like nothing I've heard before, I then heard Sabbath bloody Sabbath, and then bought it almost immediately - the songs Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabara Cadabara, Who are you and the last track are pure prog. I listeind to Sabotage, again changes in some of the songs have symphonic structures, others experiment with orchestra, Vol. 4 has prog tendencys, I think that the album after Sabotage (forgotten its name) is quite eclectic. These guys had many soft acoustic moments unusual vocals and a long relationship with prog bands - you can hear their influence on Kahn's Space Shanty; the first track on that album sounds to me to be influenced by War Pig. I think that Paranoid is heavily influenced by King Crimson, much in the same way as Uriah Heep was in Very 'Eavy, Very 'Umble. I think Sabbath would fit in perfectly in prog-related, both in there musical connection with prog and also in their influence and they in tern being influenced by prog. THIS IS NOT A METAL HEAD TALKING; I CAN'T STAND METELLICA, GUNS 'N' ROSES ETC. My opinion is based on the sheer ingenuity of Black Sabbath's music not on the noise level, heck in my 200+ CD collection I don't even own a single progressive metal album, to me Ozzy Osbournes vocals are just as unusual and experimental as Damo Suzucki, Peter Hammil, Malcom Mooney and Peter Gabrial, while some of the odd pauses and rhythms in the music to me sound at times really cerebrel, and again surreal. Thankyou, I'm sure you've already discussed them but I'm absolutely convinced they belong here. |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:02
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You're perfectly right... BS have been discussed very often, and there are various threads suggesting them. However, I really like the way you brought your argument foward - and you shouldn't worry about being thought a 'metalhead', because BS (in my very, very humble opinion) went way beyond 'simple' heavy metal. Personally, I would be in favour of their addition, for a series of reasons, including the old, worn out "if X are here, why not Y?" argument. However, I think you are aware of the problems every controversial addition causes. Just yesterday a member posted a very unpleasant comment on the site's addition policy, which contained an indirect attack on me (and it wasn't the first time). Having been part of the Admin team, I can tell you it's not pleasant to spend days closing threads and reprimanding people who freak out because of a particularly controversial addition. |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:07
Yeah, I know, I initially had a problem with Iron Maiden being here, then I realised whether I like them is irrelevant, if they are prog related, then they belong here its as simple as that, I just hope that people will discover how creative and innovative BS were, to me they sound more proggy than Wishbone Ash Argus (which I enjoy), or even Led Zep. |
Ghost Rider wrote:Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:16
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To me, Black Sabbath straddle the line between metal and progressive music. Even more so when Ronnie James Dio joined the band. That's when they sort of veered into the progressive realm. I've seen some bands added that I oftentimes wished were overlooked and I would question Sabbath's Inclusion. I think they see themselves as a metal band and a metal band only. Just my thoughts. E ------------- 
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:25
Oh, were they mnore proggy with Dio? I'll have to check that stuff out, thats ironic I thought that they may have stopped being proggy during that period and the 1970s were their prog proggy period, while you think the dio period was when they started to be proggy. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:30
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^^I'm far from an authority, but I found their music delved into the longer epics than with Ozzy. I watched Heaven & Hell (weird that they couldn't tour with the name Black Sabbath) live on VH1 Classic and Dio's lost a lot of his range. Man, and Vinnie Appice still isn't a good drummer. He just hammers this kit with no touch whatsoever. Not a bad show, though. E -------------
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:34
I'll have to get try of that Dio stuff, interesting isn't it, in the 80s Sabbath went more proggy while the prog bands went more pop. But perhaps metal bands recieved less negative criticism than the prog ones during that period |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:34
| I wouldn't say they became 'proggier' with Dio, at least not on the marvelous "Heaven and Hell"... More so on "Mob Rules" and on the live album. If I consider Black Sabbath's Seventies output, I see them as clearly influenced by prog - therefore, 'prog-related' in the true sense of the word, as much as Led Zeppelin were, even if in a different way in a purely musical sense. |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 05:38
oh, well I havn't heard any of the dio stuff I was just going on the description given to me just then, just their main 70s albums. But yeah especially the way Wakeman's synths were in Sabara Cadabra, I actually saw in allmusic.com that Yes was listed as a major influence on Sabbath. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 06:05
I totally agree. From coming up with the original (and best) formula for doom metal through to their gradually more progressive (with a small "p") and experimental albums, Sabbath are strong contenders for inclusion in Prog-related. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 08:39
Guys, all I can tell you is, state your case before the Admin Team, who are responsible for prog-related additions. I think the band deserve to be here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the addition was held up for some time, because of the unrest it would bring to the forums. I remember what happened when I added Iron Maiden and Blue Oyster Cult, and they're not among my fondest memories of this site.
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 08:48
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Well, I'd support adding Black Sabbath to the PA. Their first couple of albums were pretty progressive, blending together blues, hard rock, jazz and aspects of folk/medieval music.
I hope that the admin team won't hold up the process just because people might complain on the forums, given how important Black Sabbath have been to rock music in general.
... oh, and there's nothing wrong in being a metal head. If you look at the history of metal, you'll find that it's one of the most ecclectic and protean genres in rock/pop music.
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:01
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Respectfully, I disagree. Borrowing a style does not make you prog. You have to do something with it. And as for controversial additions (Blind Guardian really annoys me), I think every addition has to be made on a case-to-case basis. If X is admitted because Y is in, then X becomes Y and the cycle continues, foot-in-the-door. I believe that's part of the reason Blind Guardian are in -- justifying one poor decision with another. That's not ever the right way to go. Honestly, BS can find their way to prog-related, but not out of it. They pioneered the metal genre, but they did not pioneer prog metal. Blues rock and jazz rock is not prog rock. Not to say it can't be, but the styles are not inherently prog. //EDIT: And don't get confused with prog metal and doom metal, either. Time Signature, I'm looking at you. //EDIT 2: This is the line I was looking for: "- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community" To prog metal, yes. And since Iron Maiden is already in, you have lots of reasons to put Black Sabbath in. As prog-related. |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:09
| Why are you looking at me? |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:10
Black Sabbath's first three albums were pretty much the invention of doom metal. |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:13
I took my two older sons to see Heaven & Hell in Perth, Western Australia. I thought Dio was in pretty good form (I've got a new respect for him from how well he performed) and my boys and I were well impressed with Appice's solo. Maybe I'm just easily impressed given that I'm old and like shiny things with baubles, loud noises, bright lights and a bit of smoke
  ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:14
Right, and you're accusing me of claiming otherwise?
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:17
Prog-Related IS NOT PROG. How come that I, who am not a native speaker of English, understand the concept, and many here who are don't?  No one has suggested including BS in a fully prog genre. I, for one, wouldn't want to add it to Heavy Prog. This is what I meant when I said that every controversial addition seems to disrupt the forum for weeks: people refuse to see that word "related"... or perhaps they do it on purpose just to vent their spleen on someone else. |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:22
I apologize. I misread the initial suggestion. I support Black Sabbath's candidacy for prog-related.  |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:25
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Forgot to mention in my last post...
I really don't have a problem with Sabbath being added to Prog Related given some of their work (I always thought The Warning off the Black Sabbath album as a bit on the proggish side ... and long) and as a band they have influenced pretty much anyone with a metal reference in the musical genre along the way, including Prog Metal. ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 09:36
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I am very happy to see that many people support BS's addition to PR, and I agree with most of the arguments you're bringing forward in their favour. However, I also think you're aware that many other members will vehemently disagree with you, and that someone will end up bearing the brunt of that - the Admin Team as a whole, and the person materially responsible for the addition. There are people who still bring up Iron Maiden or Blue Oyster Cult (who were wanted by a good half of the membership) whenever they want to attack the site's policies, and I can assure you it's not pleasant at all. |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:13
what about we have a month moratorium (ie a ban) on any posts and threads about a controversial addition, by the time the months over people will have cooled down.  |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:15
I wasn't trying to sl*g off metal heads, I was trying to describe myself as an outside observer. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:27
me being one.... didn't agree with Zeppelin.. sure as hell won't agree with this. But to be honest... I really don't care and won't waste time fighting it. The admins I'm sure have their minds made up... as we all do... and all the wind blowing around won't change any minds ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:36
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This is extremely slippery terrain, people. Sure, prog-RELATED would be okay, but as Raffaella pointed out nobody seems to grasp the RELATED concept.
And can you imagine the amount of people going : Well, Sabbath are here and you refuse Metallica ??!?!?!??!?
As much as I agree with the initial statement concerning their eventual inclusion, I sincerely think PA can do without Black Sabbath... but I will not complain if they get included, but only in the prog-RELATED category. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:44
exactly... it simply boils down to not being important enough in the grand scheme of things prog to merit the constant... and needless... misundestanding of the notion of prog related. Though... the fireworks would be worth the price of admission though.  You can stretch Prog Related to include damn near anyone in the 70's. The question isn't whether they merit inclusion.... is simply comes down to if the group is worth the fuss. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:49
Well, we're talking Black Sabbath here, the James Browns of Metal, and therefore, fathers to every prog-metal bands, and they had their proggy moments... so I think that they would be worth the fuss. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 16:56
Well I know they certainly influenced Rush and Kahn, I can hear their imprint on both of these bands and I'm sure there were other prog bands that owe a lot to Sabbath. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 17:04
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I am on the fence on this one. Personally, I have no problem with Black Sabbath as prog-related. I wasn't there for the historically perspective but I am sure that certainly when the albums were released they weren't considered prog. There was no such thing as prog metal at that time either though. Now that there is this prog metal genre and given that Black Sabbath are one of the grandfathers of metal, from a retrospective point of view based on the current prog metal scene you can see elements of some prog metal bands that originated within Black Sabbath's music. Whether it is the parts that make them prog or the parts that make them metal is probably a difficult distinction. To an extent, Black Sabbath would be Proto-Prog Metal related. Yikes!!!! Of course that is an entirely different can of worms because every one would be lining up and saying that such and such a heavy metal band (insert Judas Priest, etc... here) is also a proto-prog metal related band and belongs on PA. ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 17:10
hahahhaha... well you two can have fun explaining that to posters foaming at the mouths... saying Van Halen is next to be added.. and creating all kinds of havoc simply because they are too stupid to read the definition. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 17:13
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irregardless though... I remind you to to consider the fate of Metallica ... I don't see them ever getting in here.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 17:16
Well I think its irrelevent whether Sabbath influenced prog metal bands or not, the fact is they delt with a lot of eclectic experimentation longer symphonic structured pieces, orchestras, albums such as Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage could easily pass as pure prog albums. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 17:28
they sure could... I won't argue against them based on if they were actually prog related or not. My point is that lots ...many groups had progressive elements. My objections are purely based on the site.. and what I think is best for it. Adding a group that like Zeppelin..that everyone knows... everyone has heard... serves little benefit to the site. Adding groups that are lesser known..or misunderstood as artists is a benefit to the site. Sabbath is IMO simply not worth the hell that would ensue. Sure it is temporary... but as some of us know.. the results of that ...often have lasting consequences. For the first time in long time.. we don't have posters at each others throats.. collabs at each other. They are free to do ...what we supposedly are here for in the first place... enjoy prog rock. Anyhow.. I've spoke my two cents on it. As I said.. this decision is for others to make.. and all that you have said... all that I have said.. have been repeated ad nauseum. If they weren't added before.... and in light of Metallica's rejection earlier... this isn't worth the time to argue about. good luck. with your crusade though If they are added... I'll look to you to explain to those who disagree and are slightly miffed.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 19:15
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I believe BS should have an inclusion under Prog Related, their early works IMO opinion had strong Prog tendencies especially Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabotage and Technical Ecstasy.
------------- CYMRU AM BYTH 
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 21:20
I agree, also add the album Never Say Die, for songs like Airdance
You have my permission to add them, I´m giving the go ahead (like I did the year before)
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 22:56
| I agree with what Micky and Melomaniac have said. I wouldn't be bothered if they were added, but the site as a whole would suffer, without much gain. |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 23:06
Like I suggested earlier, a month long ban on creating threads, posts etc on a controversial inclusion would stop all the trouble, I don't see why politics should be involved here, after all its about music, and it will help people to learn and grow in their appreciation. If a band is prog or prog-related they should be here. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 02:06
You see, Michael, this would be not a bad idea... However, if you think about that, it goes against freedom of expressing one's own opinion, which is essential in every civilised community. The trick would be to be able to express one's opinion without offending other people involved - unfortunately, there are people around who seem to be unable to do so. To make an example, I can understand some don't agree with Blue Oyster Cult being in prog-related, but there is no need to imply I added them because they were childhood favourites of mine (when I got to know them in my twenties....), as someone did a couple of days ago. I've been listening to prog since the age of 11, and I think I know the difference between a fully prog band, a prog-related one, and a non-prog one. I left the site for months after that addition because of the unpleasant allegations made by some fellow Collabs - and I was Admin at the time. Though I am perfectly capable of answering people back using their same tone, I choose not to do so - but others have no such reservations. |
Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 07:03
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Black Sabbath if influenced, directly or indirectly, probably every progmetal band out there. ------------- 
I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:53
Okay. No problem.
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:10
I remember getting answered back once ;-)
Anyway, I don't really care which genre BS would be added under, but I think they should be added to the PA given that they were innovative at the time, kind of breaking away from the norms in rock music with their extremely dark and heavy music, and their music was quite progressive in the sense that they blended together a lot of genres (and Peter Gabriel himself has stated that part of the whole progressive thing was to mix genres and see how it worked) and created their own genre on that basis.
Whether they would be added as Heavy Prog, Prog-Related, Prog-Metal or whatever is irrelevant to me, but, as I said, given the, at the time unusual and prog-like, nature of their early music, and their influence on rock/pop music in general, they should be added.
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Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:14
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Simple solution: Lob off the 'prog' from prog-related
Everyones a winner ------------- 
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:16
| So, it's just "Related" then? |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:19
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Yep -------------
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:01
| The funny thing about this thread is that its just about unanamous that BS are prog-related to some degree, and I see barely any hostility about them being here, but rather fear that there will be hostility, I'll create a poll, to gauge reactions and how negative it is in the wider community in the archives. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:30
Raff and I talked about this today... no one doubts their PR 'qualifications'. As I said before, you can make a case for any number of groups to be added in PR. I don't think you need to do a poll.. they've been done time and time again. As I said last night... the admins and the owner will make this decision, and if they chose to add them, they will hopefully deal swiftly with any such hostility... If not.. the site deserves what it gets allowing people to carry on like that. As I told Raff.. that would indeed be a benefit to this site. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:35
been suggested.. and rejected 'Influenced by prog' was suggested .... even with some of the cadets we have here... I find it hard to mistake that for a prog sub-genre ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:42
Well I think we can expect a few "controversial" additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space...  BTW, The Webmaster rejected Metallica. It's his site to do with as he pleases and he has a list of bands he wants to see here. Some have already been added and there are a more to come. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:52
I'm quite sure of that hahahhahah ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:56
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Undoubtely, Black Sabbath influenced the whole metal and heavy rock scene, and that includes Heavy Prog and Prog Metal. So, they could be here as Proto Prog. They're not considered progressive, but the huge influence is obvious! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:20
from a historical perspective, Sabbath can only be Prog Related. >> first album in 70
I think that the addition of Zeppelin (I was against it) changed a few things perspective-wise on this site.
But from a historical AND musical perpective, it would be wiser to have Purple and The Who changed to Prog Related. I always thought The Who (I would've voted against their inclusion if Zep had not gotten the inclusion before) was absurd in Proto, since Tommy is 69 (as is Crimson's ITCOTCK) and the prog era was 70's and not 60's. As for Purple, it is only logical that their inclusion gets changed to prog related if both Zep and Sabbath are in (and all indications points that they will be in). ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:32
| The DP biography would need to be changed if they were moved, as it currently focuses on their first 3 albums as evidence of their Proto prog credentials. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 12:17
If you need to change DP's bio, I would be glad to do it, since I love the band and I am quite familiar with most of their output - unless of course someone else is even keener on doing it! |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:42
| It could certainly do with improving anyway Raf, please feel free to do so! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:48
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Thanks for the trust, Bob! I'll have a look at it ASAP, and see what can be improved upon.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:07
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:11
| I hope to come up with something half-decent in the next few days.... I've looked at the DP bio, and I have to say it would've needed to be expanded anyway. Even if their prog career stopped with "The Mule", they're too important and influential a band to have only a couple of paragraphs as their bio. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:17
I wasn't so into the way things work here hahahah , and what people say..without saying it...around here....I take that to mean that the webmaster wants Sabbath added... if so... so be it. If not... then I direct this to whoever wants to consider Sabbath for this site It is his site, and the admins site and they can do he wants with it. Include making a mockery of it .. I'll ask you to do one thing. Read a book, or consider the book that was put on Progressive Rock... damn....I believe it was 'Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture' by Edward Macan. in his book.... he goes to great pains to explain .. just how different how groups like Sabbath are from Progressive Rock.. He uses uses one to to explain what the other was trying NOT to do. Simply.. I don't care if you add them or not... but if you are seriously concerned about having not just a comprehensive site... but an accurate one. Let's history be history rather than if they had some progressive elements or music. granted it is only one opinion... but that opinion is in world wide cirulation and has a hell of a lot more merit than any thing that has been written in these pages. My two cents. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:49
Rick Wakeman played keyboards on Sabra Cadabra. Enough said, they are prog related.  Seriously though, I have never really considered Black Sabbath as anything other than a really good heavy metal band but I can see the prog-related point of view from the standpoint that they were somewhat influenced by Yes, and by the amount of influence that they had on many of the prog-metal bands. Grant it, their influence was probably more on the metal side versus the prog side. If Black Sabbath were added as a full-fledged prog band then I think that PA would lose a lot of credibility, but as to the suggestion that they be added as prog-related I don't think that would be the case. At least as long as people get it straight that prog-related does not mean prog.
Again these same battles have been waged over Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.... And the same arguments for and against are repeated each time. The crazy thing is that bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Opeth, and The Mars Volta are on PA as prog bands because they merged different musical styles and they expanded the musical boundaries. Those characteristics are going to be found in pretty much any description you find about Black Sabbath. And again the arguments meander on. They were progressive with a little "p" not a big "P". "Progressive and rock, but not progressive rock".
To me, Black Sabbath is the closest of these bands to have a sound in common with the prog rock bands of the 70's.
-------------
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 04:01
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Tony Iommi, interview (a few years ago): - What do you think about today's doom metal scene? -T.I.: what do you mean? I invented doom metal!!!!! ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 12:15
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Slight misundestanding I think guys. Lets all hug a tree -------------
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Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 12:17
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I'm hugging a G-cup tree by the way. Yes they exist in Japan -------------
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 13:03
A gree dddde ! If the Who are Proto, then how about Pretty Things & S.F. Sorrow ? Ol' Petey admits that the album moved him along the way to Tommy. But even without that comparison, at best the Who & Purple are prog related. DP's early stuff did include some mixing with classical music, but apart from April & the Concerto, the rest fitted in with some psych bands that liked to throw in the kitchen sink when it came to composition. The one curveball with DP though, is that their career started before Prog (i.e. ITCOTCK) hit their creative peak during the initial prog heyday when there was such a rock critic construct known as progressive music, and continued successfully (define it as you will) until today. Oh, and as for Sabbath, if you read enough reviews of the early 70s smaller stature groups, you will find enough references to Sab gloom, Sab dirge, Sab Dark, etc to make you wonder how they could put out a sound so identifiable and not be related to prog when our reviewers use them that often. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 14:56
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OK, time to light the blue touch paper.
Black Sabbath have been approved for addition as Prog related. This is a decision of the site owners ( mailto:M@x - M@x ), and at his specific request.
The admin team realise that this will be a controversial addition, indeed some members of that team do not support the inclusion. We are committed as a team though to ensuring that the addition does not result in any inappropriate posts, especially those which contravene the site rules on civility.
I can only emphasise again, for those who have difficulty with the concept, that this does not mean the site is saying Black Sabbath were a prog band. They are being added as prog related. Please check the definition of that category if you are unsure of it.
Inevitably, when the albums are added, there will be a flurry of initial reviews. These will quickly work themselves through though, and the front page will return to its familiar look.
I say again though, PLEASE KEEP FUTURE DISCUSSIONS ON THIS ADDITION FRIENDLY AND CIVIL. Please also respect the right of the site owner, without whom there would be no site, to take the final decision on this.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 15:02
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not for the addition of course (  ) but for your post Bob... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 16:55
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yes, very good post Bob.. and if people have problems, maybe they'll think twice about attacking the site if they know it was the owner's decision |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 20:07
Maybe they'll bother to remember that it was "controversial" even within the admin team, and that in the final analysis, the request for complainers to revisit the definition of Prog-Related should be taken to heart before any whining about Sabbath not being prog. Hey, maybe if Sabbath were German & spoke in oblique terms with pseudo-literary & "artiste"-like touches of snobbishness, then some would feel superior to others by reversing themselves & declaring their love for such a maligned group. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 20:13
Black Sabbath are not prog. 
 Actually, I find some of their material quite proggy. I would consider them borderline prog. Definitely not a full-blown prog band, but probably close enough that their inclusion seems reasonable to me as prog-related. I know you have all been waiting for the Doctor's stamp of approval and there you have it. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 22:03
I still don't agree at all, but when the captain gives an order, the sailor has to obey, mailto:M@x - M@x surely knows what he wants for the site.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 23:58
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Looks like I'll have to initiate another campaign to remind people that there is still a vast amount of true prog on this site. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 00:03
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yup |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 00:25
YES!!!! THANKYOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 05:14
That's the spirit, mon ami!
 After all I was opposed to an inclusion a few weeks ago (at least in a full blown prog category) and kept civil about it , even if it did cause a certain fatgue and resulted in a lesser contribution in recent weeks.
 Actually I should be over with the bio in a few days an,d Raf will include the albums.
I am still working on the argumentation for their inclusion on the site, but plenty of those have been developped in the two threads.
PS: I was approached about Sab's inclusion around six weeks ago, so the threads of this last two weeks were not influential to the group's inclusion on the PA. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 05:23
| Hugues, did you get my PM? I tried to come up with an argumentation, but perhaps that wasn't good enough.... |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 05:26
I got your reply, thanks
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:20
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At last some justice..... Of the bands that truly influenced progressive-metal, only one's still missing from here.... they were rejected by the owners so I won't push for their inclusion any further... But I'm very happy about Sabbath finally here in PROG RELATED WHICH MEANS THEY'RE NOT PROG..... ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:27
What if we had a banner put on the home page that said exactly those same words? |
Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:44
------------- 
'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 08 2007 at 14:57
Someone would still say that "prog" and "related" and "sabbath" shoudn't go in the same sentence...
 And to Evans, well, let's just say that "the masters of puppets" here in PA have decided not to give "justice for all", just to some.... -------------
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