Black Sabbath

Now, I've checked to see if Black Sabbath, were already talked about but couldn't find a previous post in this section.
Anyway I'm not what you call a metal fan, yes I have some led zep, and yes I have some Rush and King Crimson; both of whom have got strong ties with metal. My presumption of Black Sabbath was just another heavy riff uncreative bunch of noise mongers, boy was I wrong, someone played me war pig and the surrealism in Ozzy's vocals we're like nothing I've heard before, I then heard Sabbath bloody Sabbath, and then bought it almost immediately - the songs Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabara Cadabara, Who are you and the last track are pure prog. I listeind to Sabotage, again changes in some of the songs have symphonic structures, others experiment with orchestra, Vol. 4 has prog tendencys, I think that the album after Sabotage (forgotten its name) is quite eclectic. These guys had many soft acoustic moments unusual vocals and a long relationship with prog bands - you can hear their influence on Kahn's Space Shanty; the first track on that album sounds to me to be influenced by War Pig. I think that Paranoid is heavily influenced by King Crimson, much in the same way as Uriah Heep was in Very 'Eavy, Very 'Umble.
I think Sabbath would fit in perfectly in prog-related, both in there musical connection with prog and also in their influence and they in tern being influenced by prog.
THIS IS NOT A METAL HEAD TALKING; I CAN'T STAND METELLICA, GUNS 'N' ROSES ETC. My opinion is based on the sheer ingenuity of  Black Sabbath's music not on the noise level, heck in my 200+ CD collection I don't even own a single progressive metal album, to me Ozzy Osbournes vocals are just as unusual and experimental as Damo Suzucki, Peter Hammil, Malcom Mooney and Peter Gabrial, while some of the odd pauses and rhythms in the music  to me sound at times really cerebrel, and again surreal.
Thankyou, I'm sure you've already discussed them but I'm absolutely convinced they belong here.


Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 03 2007 at 05:08

Ghost Rider wrote: You're perfectly right... BS have been discussed very often, and there are various threads suggesting them. However, I really like the way you brought your argument foward - and you shouldn't worry about being thought a 'metalhead', because BS (in my very, very humble opinion) went way beyond 'simple' heavy metal. Personally, I would be in favour of their addition, for a series of reasons, including the old, worn out "if X are here, why not Y?" argument.  However, I think you are aware of the problems every controversial addition causes. Just yesterday a member posted a very unpleasant comment on the site's addition policy, which contained an indirect attack on me (and it wasn't the first time). Having been part of the Admin team, I can tell you it's not pleasant to spend days closing threads and reprimanding people who freak out because of a particularly controversial addition.

Yeah, I know, I initially had a problem with Iron Maiden being here, then I realised whether I like them is irrelevant, if they are prog related, then they belong here its as simple as that, I just hope that people will discover how creative and innovative BS were, to me they sound more proggy than Wishbone Ash Argus (which I enjoy), or even Led Zep.

E-Dub wrote: To me, Black Sabbath straddle the line between metal and progressive music. Even more so when Ronnie James Dio joined the band. That's when they sort of veered into the progressive realm. I've seen some bands added that I oftentimes wished were overlooked and I would question Sabbath's Inclusion. I think they see themselves as a metal band and a metal band only. Just my thoughts. E

Oh, were they mnore proggy with Dio? I'll have to check that stuff out, thats ironic I thought that they may have stopped being proggy during that period and the 1970s were their prog proggy period, while you think the dio period was when they started to be  proggy.



Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 03 2007 at 05:27

E-Dub wrote: ^^I'm far from an authority, but I found their music delved into the longer epics than with Ozzy. I watched Heaven & Hell (weird that they couldn't tour with the name Black Sabbath) live on VH1 Classic and Dio's lost a lot of his range. Man, and Vinnie Appice still isn't a good drummer. He just hammers this kit with no touch whatsoever. Not a bad show, though. E

I'll have to get try of that Dio stuff, interesting isn't it, in the 80s Sabbath went more proggy while the prog bands went more pop. But perhaps metal bands recieved less negative criticism than the prog ones during that period

Ghost Rider wrote: I wouldn't say they became 'proggier' with Dio, at least not on the marvelous "Heaven and Hell"... More so on "Mob Rules" and on the live album. If I consider Black Sabbath's Seventies output, I see them as clearly influenced by prog - therefore, 'prog-related' in the true sense of the word, as much as Led Zeppelin were, even if in a different way in a purely musical sense.

oh, well I havn't heard any of the dio stuff I was just going on the description given to me just then, just their main 70s albums. But yeah especially the way Wakeman's synths were in Sabara Cadabra, I actually saw in allmusic.com that Yes was listed as a major influence on Sabbath.


Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 03 2007 at 05:39

Guys, all I can tell you is, state your case before the Admin Team, who are responsible for prog-related additions. I think the band deserve to be here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the addition was held up for some time, because of the unrest it would bring to the forums. I remember what happened when I added Iron Maiden and Blue Oyster Cult, and they're not among my fondest memories of this site.

Respectfully, I disagree. Borrowing a style does not make you prog. You have to do something with it.

And as for controversial additions (Blind Guardian really annoys me), I think every addition has to be made on a case-to-case basis. If X is admitted because Y is in, then X becomes Y and the cycle continues, foot-in-the-door. I believe that's part of the reason Blind Guardian are in -- justifying one poor decision with another. That's not ever the right way to go.

Honestly, BS can find their way to prog-related, but not out of it. They pioneered the metal genre, but they did not pioneer prog metal. Blues rock and jazz rock is not prog rock. Not to say it can't be, but the styles are not inherently prog.

//EDIT: And don't get confused with prog metal and doom metal, either. Time Signature, I'm looking at you.

//EDIT 2: This is the line I was looking for:

"- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community"

To prog metal, yes. And since Iron Maiden is already in, you have lots of reasons to put Black Sabbath in. As prog-related.


Edited by Gamemako - October 03 2007 at 09:09

Time Signature wrote: Why are you looking at me?

Black Sabbath's first three albums were pretty much the invention of doom metal.

Gamemako wrote: Time Signature wrote: Why are you looking at me? Black Sabbath's first three albums were pretty much the invention of doom metal.

Ghost Rider wrote: Gamemako wrote: Respectfully, I disagree. Borrowing a style does not make you prog. You have to do something with it. Prog-Related IS NOT PROG. How come that I, who am not a native speaker of English, understand the concept, and many here who are don't? No one has suggested including BS in a fully prog genre. I, for one, wouldn't want to add it to Heavy Prog. This is what I meant when I said that every controversial addition seems to disrupt the forum for weeks: people refuse to see that word "related"... or perhaps they do it on purpose just to vent their spleen on someone else.

I apologize. I misread the initial suggestion. I support Black Sabbath's candidacy for prog-related.