Steely Dan |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 15:56 | ||||||||||||||||
I apologize for the seemingly disrespectful tone of my reply. I do like to argue these musical matters in a forthright, forceful fashion, but sometimes this text-only, faceless medium leads me to forget my manners. (To be honest, I had some doubts about my post myself.)
I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site by them, then turning to classic prog, or 99.999% of what is listed here, and saying "Oh, this music is quite similar to Steely Dan." Nor would I recommend (old) Yes, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, or IQ, or the Mars Volta, or prog metal, etc, to someone simply because he told me he likes SD.
I think the widely-accepted interpretation of the term "progressive rock/prog," or even "prog related" has to be narrower than you'd make it, or else whatever shreds of meaning that outdated term might still have are lost.
Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added (life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues" are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category, would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates, or else this site will need a name change and new, much-broader focus to allow the addition of ALL forms of music, and all of the diverse stuff which we (many and varied) progfans enjoy and consider "good."
Heck, I like The Eagles, Dwight Yoakam, Lyle Lovett, Wilco and Steve Earle. To me, they're well above average for "country" artists, and they push the boundaries of country, blend and explore various genres, etc. If I managed to have them added (not that I want to) would Dolly Parton, George Strait and Shania Twain be far behind? (Those latter ultra-commercial country artists would be related to my favourites, now wouldn't they?)
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this.
Edited by Peter - September 25 2007 at 16:04 |
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Dim
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 17 2007 Location: Austin TX Status: Offline Points: 6890 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:15 | ||||||||||||||||
I guess you have a point, It seems I am blurring artistic, prog, and innovative together a bit...
I need to get my priorities straight, but for someone who wasnt around in the seventies, it isnt unreasonable for them to think SD could be sudo progressive.
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:23 | ||||||||||||||||
can't remember the quote.. but Fagen in the 70's was asked about Steely Dan's music vs. Yes. It was illluminating hahhah
damn I need to find where I read that... Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 18:24 |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:38 | ||||||||||||||||
couldn't find it online.. so it must have been a book.. ... the
interviewer had asked him to compare the complex music of SD to that of
Yes.. the answer.. typical Fagen
anyhow... food for thought... did find this though.. For those who think Steely Dan were jazz related or some sh*t like that. When it comes to fusion, most critics consider jazz's acceptance of rock, but not rock's acceptance of jazz. That has been quite unfortunate, since when it comes to the music of Donald Fagen and Walter Becker, better known as Steely Dan, many have missed out on some visionary fusion. Since their second album, Countdown to Ecstasy, Fagen/Becker have immersed their music in jazz. They even covered Duke's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" on the brilliant Pretzel Logic. Throughout their career they would experiment back and forth, engaging in some amazing results. But none of their albums captured this approach better than 1977's Aja (pronounced asia). One of The Dan's major characteristics that has won them legions of fans is their devotion to articulate and complex music, usually played by a make shift band of top notch studio musicians. The second one features the dark perverse sense of humor that flows through Donald Fagen's lyrics in his deadpan delivery. Aja lightens up the perversity of the lyrics, but it's more intricate and complex than any of the other records. Essential to understanding Aja is understanding Steely Dan's commitment of having the production to sound completely flawless. That means they refuse to let any bad or missed notes in a solo reach the final product. With the exception of the utterly "free" solos like Wayne Shorter's on the title track, every note has been painstakingly envisioned and thought out by Fagen and Becker before it is mastered to the final product. Much like their idols such as Duke Ellington, they complete the whole picture before laying the paint on the canvas. That distinguishes their work from most recorded jazz, in which spontaneity is prized no matter what imperfections may result. After spending a good portion of their time touring (which they hated), the guys settled in with some of the best studio musicians around and began to do strictly studio work--much to the dismay of their record company. After completing another great record, Katy Lied, and the so-so rock album Royal Scam without a hit single or tour, ABC Records put the pressure on for some radio-friendly pop singles. The result was Aja. Although it's got a lot of long, intricate and complex jazz-based tracks, strangely enough it became a hit and even won a Grammy. Upon its release many cited it as the band's best effort, while others decried it as a bloated ego trip full of crack musicians. As it stands now, Aja stands as an absolutely brilliant slice of smooth that could easily stand beside such records as George Benson's Breezin or Grover Washington Jrs Mister Magic. Opening with a track about a man forgiving his cheating wife, "Black Cow" sets the soft-toned texture of the record. Subtle drops of piano, horns and synths flourish in and out through the track, while Tom Scott's horn pulls the track together. For the most part the record continues in this vein. Its a world of soft-as-silk jazz that would be popular with in the 80s with a variety of performers. But on tracks such as "Peg," pop chops slide into the mix. Although this may seem discouraging for some, "Peg" is a beauty of a pop based jazz that few songwriters have ever pulled off. Its layers of synth and horns mixed with gorgeous harmonies proved pop doesnt have to be entirely based on three chord progressions. But the two most experimental tracks are also the most satisfying: "Aja" and "Deacon Blues." These two pieces make this disc a good starting point for the jazz loversfirst adventure into Steely Dan. The title track certainly corners their jazz vision unlike any other. From the amazing Wayne Shorter solo to the graceful touches of Michael Omartians piano, Dans vision of smooth jazz was never as fully realized. "Deacon Blues," although a single, is by far one of their finest tracks. Its based on a solid funk line, driven by Chuck Raineys bass. Subtle solos, like Pete Christliebs sax work, recall the work of the late Grover Washington Jr. This intuitive combination helps make all angles of the track genius. Filled with synth, plus acoustic and electric guitars via Becker and Larry Carlton, this piece offers a hypnotic taste of various fusions, showing the unique vision that only Steely Dan could possess. Aja stands as a unique record in both the jazz and pop genres. It is laid out with complex horn charts, a variety of synths, blazing solos and oddly timed songs. The album creates an original fusion that may seem strangely out of place by jazz or rock enthusiasts, yet its perfectly natural for listeners comfortable in each genre. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:46 | ||||||||||||||||
Peter's post is a perfect, far more eloquent statement of my own thoughts.
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:00 | ||||||||||||||||
Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 19:04 |
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 02 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 822 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 21:09 | ||||||||||||||||
I came back from Brisbane [Aust].after seeing them live on their 'Heavy Rollers 2007' tour last Sunday week, proudly sporting my 'Steely Dan T- shirt',[ on this occasion an 'Aja' design in the image of that wonderful album], extremely enthusiastic following the wonderment of the excellent concert I had seen and a little perplexed [ other than in my own mind] as to exactly where they fit in the genre laden world of music that is generally regarded as progressive.
[For those interested, I have posted a review of the concert under a 'Non Prog Music ' thread topic . I thought I might be crucified if I squeezed it in to the 'Live Performance Review' forum , as it seems to require the band reviewed to be prog - something which is not accepted here , universally or by majority, slim or otherwise]. Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion' banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as ' jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all their vocal contributions with aplomb. The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee would just lap it up. I joyously did. So there's no question about imo. IN [ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD]. |
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:18 | ||||||||||||||||
one thing we know though... is if there is one group of purists that can give prog purists a run for their money... it is jazz purists. I think the guy who wrote the article sort of danced around that. It seems fine to amp up the rock in jazz... but what about amping up the jazz in rock. Is is still Jazz-Rock? I would think it is a no brainer... but for all the people that cry about labels and blaa blaa blaa... just as many will resort to those to them to try to sweep under the carpet groups that challenge their preconcieved notions of what or what not something is. (sounds ....prog-like doesn't it) Oh well.... as I said it my first post in this thread.. whether they are here or not.. doesn't really matter.... the fans wil go on loving it. |
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 02 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 822 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:16 | ||||||||||||||||
Agreed 100% Micky. However, with time , my views on admissions has also broadened. I remeber a post I made on an earlier thread where I came to the view that I wasn't convinced of their inclusion. Now, with my more 'catholic' views and after seeing and hearing
their current incarnation 'live', I have no hesitation in supporting it. But again, you're right. Whether they're in or not will not detract one bit from my enjoyment of them, now I have my Steely Dan T-shirt |
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:24 | ||||||||||||||||
I don't either... they might fit in my sub... but not prepared to go there.. not yet at least. Curious what the head of the J-R team says.. he's one hell of guy and open-minded. He was going to let me add Miles Davis... which no one has really wanted to touch. But I don't know if it is him that scares people..or the thought of doing his discography hahahhaha. That is why I didn't do it... not enough time. grrrrrr.. I'll trade you a used copy of Fish Out of Water for that shirt hahahah. They played No. Virginia in July and we missed it. |
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bluetailfly
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1383 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:33 | ||||||||||||||||
I was a big fan of Steely Dan in the 70s when "Royal Scam" and "Aja" came out, and there's no doubt about it that in terms of musical arrangement and instrumental prowess and skill and all that, that they were breaking new ground, mixing pop sensibilities with ultra awesome jazz sensibilities. But they don't strike me as prog in one essential category: their lyrical senisibility, the band's attitude. I see them as more akin to Dylan than other jazz/prog bands of that era. More street smart, more cynical (in a profound way) than what typifies prog bands or jazz fusion bands.I think they are a legendary band, and if they get included, I'd like to post some reviews. But I never thought of them as prog, or even prog-related. Interesting thread. Edited by bluetailfly - September 26 2007 at 00:18 |
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:50 | ||||||||||||||||
hmmmm... that is actually one ot the real strengths of the group.. An interview from 1980 MUSICIAN: I know you agonize over your lyrics. Does it ever frustrate you that with many of the people listening, they may be going in one ear and, with little in between to stop them, right out the other? BECKER: I assume that's the case for most of the audience, or at least a big part of it, and that's why we try to always make the lyrics not grab your attention. We want them to SOUND good with the music, even if you're not an English speaking person. MUSICIAN: But for those that are listening, atlas and dictionary in hand, you don't want the lyrics to be one-shot deals, like a comedy record that you put on once, then tire of it. BECKER: That's definitely a problem. We have to be cleverforget Dylan..... they weren't talking talking of changing the world... they were singing of the guy who shows teenagers porno flicks down the hall. You sing along to these songs.. not even realizing that the lyrical nature... often represents the seedier side of life. They sound great and often like....RPI in particular... just are a part of the music. and for the record... prog bands were knownin genral for their profound lyrics but not having them sure doesn't eliminate groups... you had groups like Caravan for example...that were very humourous and witty. Some that made no sense at all. There were many lyrical styles across prog.. from the nebulous to spacey.. to poignant and direct. |
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bluetailfly
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 28 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1383 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:04 | ||||||||||||||||
Edited by bluetailfly - September 26 2007 at 00:14 |
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:10 | ||||||||||||||||
I see your point...I think I missed it in your first post. It
does reinforce the notion that the band as a whole is rather hard to
categorize.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:46 | ||||||||||||||||
I tried to avoid this thread, but being that i been mentioned without being part of itt, i believe I must enter.
In first place Micky: I have no fears, I love Progressive rock and this site, so that's the reason why I care about which bands are added (that's different to fear), if Prog wants to survive, it must keep the main identity alive and some additions can harm that identity.
In second place, my disagreement with creating national or regional sub-genres has no relation with Peter's opinion about Steely Dan not being Prog or even Prog Related, so your comparison is simply out of place.
Now my opinion being that I have been pulled against my will to this thread.
I'm a fan of Steely Dan and I agree he's a Fusion Musician but in the broad sense, so to clarify the issue, lets fiind some definitions
As you see, Jazz Fusion is the blending of JAZZ AND ANY OTHER GENRE, MAINLY ROCK, but we don't add to Prog Archives every Jazz Fusion band, we add those that blend at least two KEY elements:
Steely dan plays Fusion because they blend Jazz with Rock BUT MAINSTREAM ROCK and I dare to say with Pop and Funk also, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE PROG ROCK ELEMENT, so he shouldn't be added. I know M@X want to make this PROGRESSIVE ROCK site inclusive, but adding as many bands that have at least some relation with Prog, if not he and Ronny would had created General Music Archives and I'm sure would had been much more profitalble.
Just to finish, the Steely Dan issue has been talked several times:
And never has been inducted.
Is there a strike 18 rule?
Iván
BTW: I know this is not a democracy, but a poll about Steely Dan has already been made and it indicates a tendency that reflects the opinion of the members, which while not mandatory, gives us some tendencies "Vox Populi, Vox Dei".
90% Of the voters believe Steely Dan should not be here, even Phil Collins has better numbers. Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 26 2007 at 23:25 |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:58 | ||||||||||||||||
hahahah... I knew you wanted to jump in... therefore I invited you.
the time may be right for them to finally be inducted... they can fit in either of 3 sub-genres. It is only a matter of where.. and when. Like some that have posted here ... I have been against them in the past. I am open to it now... this, as you mentioned, has been debated to death. If Martin doesn't want them... Xover will look at them.. if we decide not to add them... we'll put this formally before the admins. . |
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 02 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 822 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 04:09 | ||||||||||||||||
Hey, none of you cats are getting my T-shirt, man ! !
But I'll buy you a pitcher of Schlitz. Miles, Steely Dan.............what next? Marcus Miller under the Afro/street wise/funked up prog genre? Now, seriously, SD are hard to categorise and cut across the borders, but let's not let that stop us. |
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12813 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 05:02 | ||||||||||||||||
I've played Steely Dan and Donald Fagen (especially Nightfly) as part of many jazz rock playlists on my radioshow for quarter of a decade without hesitation, simply because they fit in with their special form of jazz fused with rock - ditto Joni Mitchell's mid/late 70's recordings. Most know my feeling wrt jazz rock and prog rock - especially as a member of the old guard who have always seen/heard prog as a fusion of rock with one or more other musical genre. Increasingly I feel, it's these johnnie come latelies who haven't been there from the start of progressive music, so not exposed firsthand to the genre before it got narrowed to the sort of music the main 5 bands produced 1971 - 1976. Certainly Steely Dan's music is miles away from Yes or Genesis, but it aint't miles away from the jazz rock fusion of MO, WR, Tasavallan Presidentti, BST, early Chicago etc. etc.
However, whilst part of the site is ultra-liberal to who is let in, we get into these anus-staring debates over the likes of Dan, who's output includes music more worthy of being here than Queen etc. etc. A final nag, if as was suggested by many 4 or 5 years ago, we had a section that had elected, selected albums from a band's discography which had genuine prog elements - rather than the whole shebang - then we would be better off, and maybe avoid debates about Dan, Styx etc.
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Rivertree
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Band Submissions Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 17628 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 05:38 | ||||||||||||||||
Such debates are arising again and again - no wonder, this is a Forum.
I think it's not that negative because it forces to think about subjects from time to time to prevent stagnation. But as Peter wrote before: not every good music is Progressive Rock! I would say only 'Aja' (which is my favourite Steely Dan release) knocks at the Prog door. That's it. Edited by Rivertree - September 26 2007 at 05:40 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 26 2007 at 08:23 | ||||||||||||||||
Well, I can see the writing on the wall -- though roundly rejected before, Steely Dan will be added to the archives, by dint of their jazz-rock stylings. (As Dick will recall, i had trouble way back with jazz being added, but c'est la vie -- I can understand the inclusion, if not whole-heartedly support it.)
But, if, in the name of "inclusiveness" we are adding non prog musical forms that blend genres -- we've had trad-rock (i.e., Celtic rock or folk-rock) and jazz-rock -- then I assume that country-rock will soon be added as well. (If not, I'd like to know the reasoning.)
You can start by adding Neil Young and Wilco.
Later, we can explore various "world" musics, to look for any artists who are blending western and local forms in their art. I can also suggest several more popular jazzy artists to add, including Sting and Dave Matthews (doesn't matter if you don't like them).
And how about some smooth jazz -- that's a fusion of jazz and pop (or jazz and elevator muzak, as Dick would have it).
(I'm not kidding, BTW.) Edited by Peter - September 26 2007 at 08:40 |
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Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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