Steely Dan
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41979
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 22:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Steely Dan
Posted By: TheMadCap
Subject: Steely Dan
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 19:05
| I'm not one-hundred percent sure about this but I noticed that Steely Dan is not one this website. I think that they would fit into Jazz/Rock Fusion. Their music has a very Jazzy sound to it while still being great rock music. I was wondering if that is what other people thought about this. |
Replies:
Posted By: pepefloyd
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 19:47
i agree steely dan should be here 
------------- http://www.lastfm.es/user/pepe_floyd84/?chartstyle=basic10"> 
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Posted By: Gentle Tull
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 22:33
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I also agree ------------- 
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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 05:31
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Mee too.
as jazz/rock related
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 05:36
There are at least three threads on the some subject.. Using the search function could be useful sometimes. BTW, there is no such category as Jazz-Rock-Related... The Admin team is responsible for additions to Prog-Related, so you should bring the matter to their attention. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 08:44
| I'm not an expert on the Dan but I've never heard them described as a prog rock band. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 11:04
I doubt if they're Prog, they are a very good rock band.
 (steely smile) -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 11:04
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I will advocate their inclusion each and every time the subject comes up. I think they'd fit into the eclectic category very nicely. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 11:36
While the quality and musicianship in Steely Dan's music are undeniable, to include them in PA would be a tricky proposition, and it most likely could not be done without creating a whole new subgenre (i.e. jazz-fusion related) because their music does not truly fit into any of the current subgenres. However, any band that does an impromptu Q&A session with the audience during their Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony, where the first question was, "Who can tell me who was the original drummer in the Mothers of Invention?" is pretty cool in my book and worthy of inclusion in PA!  ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 11:40
| I love them, but no. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 15:58
| Defintely not prog, but "My Old School" is a work of geniuses!!!! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 16:05
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I won a Steely Dan single (Dallas) at an Emperor Rosko roadshow in the 70's. I played it once hoping it was like Steeleye Span - it wasn't... I never played it again. ------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 16:45
exactly... I'll sum up my feelings.... like I did in the last thread that dealt with Steely Dan... last week.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Ghost Rider wrote:Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 16:50
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I've always considered them Jazz-Rock/Fusion. The song King of the World is one of my favorites. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 17:01
fused with popular music....Xover most likely... off the top of my head... you have to go to some heavy hitters like Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/RIchards, Neil Young, Roger Waters etc.. to find a better songwriter than Donald Fagen. Again... judged solely on the basis of their work, and done in a bubble.. .yeah they should probably be here. But artists... well known ones.. are not judged strictly on the music here... history/perception is... hell... has to be taken into account. It is with well known groups already here.. and those on the outside looking in. Where it becomes interesting is when artists are known for something... yet their career, is in fact, far more than that and touches HARD upon prog. That is where additions get tricky... and yes ...I refer to a particular artist hahahhaha  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 17:11
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just for sh*ts and giggles.... I am going to see what others think of this....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:37
Just a note re : the 3 strikes - it is true that being american & popular is a great disadvantage when it comes to some PA members accepting that a group may be progressive. Even in their heyday, the only genre that would have fit them was the "Rolling Stone" artificial construct - Rock music, that great aggregation of pop music that wasn't 4/4 time all the time or pop culture disposable top 40, i.e. serious music. As for the lyrics & the instrumental virtuosity, one could also say the same for Stevie Wonder's output during roughly the same period. There are great lyricists in many genres (for example Steve Earle in country, Joe Strummer in punk), and prog does not really have a lock on musical virtuosos, again with many examples to be found in claasical, country, jazz, bluegrass et al. But they are one of those bands whose music will last for generations. By their second album, they had hit their groove & never looked back. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:48
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^ exactly.... I am playing both sides of the fence here... do I
think they belong in a prog subgenre.. no I don't. They simply
have no association with prog... and even if I am American... you have
to acknowledge that prog during that time WAS primarily European.
Of course that doesn't wash now... but history is history. Yet I
understand completely why so many DO think they do belong here. I
think the middle ground should be found.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:48
Not unless "prog" just means "good." 
Damn, but turning to the dictionary to define what "progressive" means, music-wise, leads to a LOT of confusion here!
Too bad the original "progressive" rock artists and critics hadn't coined an entirely new word for the stuff....
And don't give me that tired old "anti-American" Archives thing again. Country of origin is totally irrelevant. Here's a prog compilation I made, guys: first up is Echoes, then Close to the Edge, then Karn Evil 9, then Hey Nineteen....
 Whoops!
Final thought: Steely Dan makes for good seduction music -- VDGG and Gentle Giant decidedly do not!
 (Not even for me....)  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:53
hahahhaha... that is does not... let me say though Peter.. .that anti American thing is is not irrelevant, is alive, and always will be... in the larger umbrellla of 'not being known or considered as prog' Simple as that. I'd bet my paycheck.... that if Steely Dan were English.... they'd have been here since the day you joined.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 18:57
Emperor Rosko Roadshow?Steeleye Span? as in "All around my hat"??? Dean some things are best left unsaid pal... |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:07
I also think they became popular music but didn't necessarily fuse it in.
 ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:16
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You know why there aren't so many Canadian artists here? Because historically, we didn't have many prog artists.
Ditto the situation with America.
And where are all of the Chinese prog acts? Where's Belarus? (sob! choke! gulp!
 )Prog was: late 60s -- early 70s / mostly English (& European). None of us can help that. We can't change history.
Hey Mickelodeon, blues, jazz, country, punk, hip hop and rock and roll all came out of America -- that should be enough for you! And don't come up here after our water, cooler temperatures and HUGE TRACTS OF LAND either, you globe-warming b******s!  And why weren't there more American artists during the Middle Ages?
Anyway, as The Brew Guy suggests (and as I've said too many times) if we include a band like Steely Dan because "they were progressive for their genre," then the best (whatever that means), most creative (ditto) artists from other genres should be included as well. Were Flatt & Scruggs "prog country/bluegrass?" Was Marvin Gaye "prog motown?" Beethoven "prog classical?" were Menudo "prog boy band crap?"
 Aaaaarrrggghhhh & hugs, etc,Yer pal,
P.
PS: the Spice Girls wuz English, as were the Wurzels, er, I mean, the Sex Pistols. let's add them next, under the "all English music is prog" plan....  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:27
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you are a piece of work Peter Looking forward to meeting you someday when I get back out west.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:29
or simply... their music ...became popular. We are talking about a group that sure as hell wasn't playing to get groupies, fans. or promote their albums with touring ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:34
That's a really good question, with all those people, there surely has to be some. Anyone out there that can enlighten us? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:40
Ping prog? Pwog wock?
 Anyway, progression is forbidden in the land of red and stink.....
2008 (cough!) Olympic (gasp! wheeze!) Games (choke! expire!) anyone?
 Ah yes -- the Canadian team takes the field....
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:19
ah yes, the Womble years - how quickly one misguided Mike Batt produced single can kill a career.
 and I think that there even is less chance of Steeleye getting on the PA as a result of that.anyway - I've just discovered the Dallas single is quite rare, so
 back on topic: Steely Dan certainly got European exposure in the early 70s and developed a following this side of the pond - but amongst people who liked groups like Little Feet, Allman Bros. and Lynyrd Skynyrd, therefore never figured within the Prog scene or with followers of that scene. Reading up on them they do appear to be the architypal crossover artists, spanning three important genres (Jazz, Pop and Rock) - however not having heard them I cannot quantify their progressiveness, and hence their suitability for inclusion under xover. ------------- What? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:33
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I think they are one HELL of a group Dean... I'll see about getting you some samples
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:39
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I wish I had Aja or pretzel logic.
I have Gaucho and some greatest hits album, but they are a bit too poppy, with minimal jazz jam session time as what seem to be on the above two. Great band though, just need a bit more. ------------- 
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:35
 Thanks, Mickle. Nine out of ten progholes who've met me agree: I'm up to 63% more handsome in real life (and seemingly thinner in metric, too).
 And that's left of east, then north, to you.
Here's a map:
North Pole (no penguins)
^
^ (trees stop here)
^
Peter
^
^
_____________________________________________________________
^ (International Smog Line)
^
Micky
v
v
v
v (civil rights stop here)
v
v
v
Ivan
v
v
v ^
penguins N
W Tony
S
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:37
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Oh, that's brilliant.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:43
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Snurk! Titter!
Thanks, KoSi fan tutti!
 Vroom vroom,
KLR,
P ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:47
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BTW
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored. -------------
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:52
 Re the Chinese prog, I found these oddly familiar lyrics, from a Fuking prog outfit called No!
"I get up,
I get run down (by a tank)
I get up
I get run down (by a tank)...."
Hmmmm... the mystical meaning is unclear, but apparently it's available on a compilation called Greatest Hits of Glorious People's Red Army Against Traitorous Malcontent Running Dogs of Capitalist Imperialism.
Catchy title, anyway.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:56
So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
"prog" = "artistic" now?Hmmmm..... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:00
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I think the Steely Dan controversy is actually kind of interesting. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:02
We need to keep this safe and never lose it!  Just one correction, though: the blue font was needed for Ivan ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:09
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^ Andu, I colour my ol' PA comrade Ivan the Terrible red from way back, when I first used to tease him about his "commie" Russian name.
A little inside joke 'twixt he and I, doncha know!
Plus, he's such a bleeding heart leftist.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:14
Lets not get offensive, I just think that they give off a vibe with something more than your average swingy, pop, jazz rock group if you get where I'm comin' from. -------------
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 15:56
I apologize for the seemingly disrespectful tone of my reply. I do like to argue these musical matters in a forthright, forceful fashion, but sometimes this text-only, faceless medium leads me to forget my manners. (To be honest, I had some doubts about my post myself.)I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site by them, then turning to classic prog, or 99.999% of what is listed here, and saying "Oh, this music is quite similar to Steely Dan." Nor would I recommend (old) Yes, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, or IQ, or the Mars Volta, or prog metal, etc, to someone simply because he told me he likes SD.
I think the widely-accepted interpretation of the term "progressive rock/prog," or even "prog related" has to be narrower than you'd make it, or else whatever shreds of meaning that outdated term might still have are lost.
Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added (life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues" are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category, would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates, or else this site will need a name change and new, much-broader focus to allow the addition of ALL forms of music, and all of the diverse stuff which we (many and varied) progfans enjoy and consider "good."
Heck, I like The Eagles, Dwight Yoakam, Lyle Lovett, Wilco and Steve Earle. To me, they're well above average for "country" artists, and they push the boundaries of country, blend and explore various genres, etc. If I managed to have them added (not that I want to) would Dolly Parton, George Strait and Shania Twain be far behind? (Those latter ultra-commercial country artists would be related to my favourites, now wouldn't they?)
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this.
 ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:15
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I guess you have a point, It seems I am blurring artistic, prog, and innovative together a bit...
I need to get my priorities straight, but for someone who wasnt around in the seventies, it isnt unreasonable for them to think SD could be sudo progressive. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:23
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can't remember the quote.. but Fagen in the 70's was asked about Steely Dan's music vs. Yes. It was illluminating hahhah damn I need to find where I read that... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:38
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couldn't find it online.. so it must have been a book.. ... the
interviewer had asked him to compare the complex music of SD to that of
Yes.. the answer.. typical Fagen anyhow... food for thought... did find this though.. For those who think Steely Dan were jazz related or some sh*t like that. When it comes to fusion, most critics consider jazz'’s acceptance of rock, but not rock'’s acceptance of jazz. That has been quite unfortunate, since when it comes to the music of Donald Fagen and Walter Becker, better known as Steely Dan, many have missed out on some visionary fusion. Since their second album, Countdown to Ecstasy, Fagen/Becker have immersed their music in jazz. They even covered Duke's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" on the brilliant Pretzel Logic. Throughout their career they would experiment back and forth, engaging in some amazing results. But none of their albums captured this approach better than 1977's Aja (pronounced asia). One of The Dan's major characteristics that has won them legions of fans is their devotion to articulate and complex music, usually played by a make shift band of top notch studio musicians. The second one features the dark perverse sense of humor that flows through Donald Fagen's lyrics in his deadpan delivery. Aja lightens up the perversity of the lyrics, but it'’s more intricate and complex than any of the other records. Essential to understanding Aja is understanding Steely Dan's commitment of having the production to sound completely flawless. That means they refuse to let any bad or missed notes in a solo reach the final product. With the exception of the utterly "free" solos like Wayne Shorter'’s on the title track, every note has been painstakingly envisioned and thought out by Fagen and Becker before it is mastered to the final product. Much like their idols such as Duke Ellington, they complete the whole picture before laying the paint on the canvas. That distinguishes their work from most recorded jazz, in which spontaneity is prized no matter what imperfections may result. After spending a good portion of their time touring (which they hated), the guys settled in with some of the best studio musicians around and began to do strictly studio work--much to the dismay of their record company. After completing another great record, Katy Lied, and the so-so rock album Royal Scam without a hit single or tour, ABC Records put the pressure on for some radio-friendly pop singles. The result was Aja. Although it'’s got a lot of long, intricate and complex jazz-based tracks, strangely enough it became a hit and even won a Grammy. Upon its release many cited it as the band'’s best effort, while others decried it as a bloated ego trip full of crack musicians. As it stands now, Aja stands as an absolutely brilliant slice of smooth that could easily stand beside such records as George Benson'’s Breezin or Grover Washington Jr’s Mister Magic. Opening with a track about a man forgiving his cheating wife, "Black Cow" sets the soft-toned texture of the record. Subtle drops of piano, horns and synths flourish in and out through the track, while Tom Scott's horn pulls the track together. For the most part the record continues in this vein. It’s a world of soft-as-silk jazz that would be popular with in the ‘80s with a variety of performers. But on tracks such as "Peg," pop chops slide into the mix. Although this may seem discouraging for some, "Peg" is a beauty of a pop based jazz that few songwriters have ever pulled off. Its layers of synth and horns mixed with gorgeous harmonies proved pop doesn’t have to be entirely based on three chord progressions. But the two most experimental tracks are also the most satisfying: "Aja" and "Deacon Blues." These two pieces make this disc a good starting point for the jazz loversfirst adventure into Steely Dan. The title track certainly corners their jazz vision unlike any other. From the amazing Wayne Shorter solo to the graceful touches of Michael Omartians piano, Dan’s vision of smooth jazz was never as fully realized. "Deacon Blues," although a single, is by far one of their finest tracks. Its based on a solid funk line, driven by Chuck Rainey’s bass. Subtle solos, like Pete Christlieb’s sax work, recall the work of the late Grover Washington Jr. This intuitive combination helps make all angles of the track genius. Filled with synth, plus acoustic and electric guitars via Becker and Larry Carlton, this piece offers a hypnotic taste of various fusions, showing the unique vision that only Steely Dan could possess. Aja stands as a unique record in both the jazz and pop genres. It is laid out with complex horn charts, a variety of synths, blazing solos and oddly timed songs. The album creates an original fusion that may seem strangely out of place by jazz or rock enthusiasts, yet it’s perfectly natural for listeners comfortable in each genre.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:46
| Peter's post is a perfect, far more eloquent statement of my own thoughts. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:00
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 21:09
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I came back from Brisbane [Aust].after seeing them live on their 'Heavy Rollers 2007' tour last Sunday week, proudly sporting my 'Steely Dan T- shirt',[ on this occasion an 'Aja' design in the image of that wonderful album], extremely enthusiastic following the wonderment of the excellent concert I had seen and a little perplexed [ other than in my own mind] as to exactly where they fit in the genre laden world of music that is generally regarded as progressive.
[For those interested, I have posted a review of the concert under a 'Non Prog Music ' thread topic . I thought I might be crucified if I squeezed it in to the 'Live Performance Review' forum , as it seems to require the band reviewed to be prog - something which is not accepted here , universally or by majority, slim or otherwise]. Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion' banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as ' jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all their vocal contributions with aplomb. The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee would just lap it up. I joyously did. So there's no question about imo. IN 
[ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD]. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:18
one thing we know though... is if there is one group of purists that can give prog purists a run for their money... it is jazz purists. I think the guy who wrote the article sort of danced around that. It seems fine to amp up the rock in jazz... but what about amping up the jazz in rock. Is is still Jazz-Rock? I would think it is a no brainer... but for all the people that cry about labels and blaa blaa blaa... just as many will resort to those to them to try to sweep under the carpet groups that challenge their preconcieved notions of what or what not something is. (sounds ....prog-like doesn't it) Oh well.... as I said it my first post in this thread.. whether they are here or not.. doesn't really matter.... the fans wil go on loving it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:16
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Agreed 100% Micky. However, with time , my views on admissions has also broadened. I remeber a post I made on an earlier thread where I came to the view that I wasn't convinced of their inclusion. Now, with my more 'catholic' views and after seeing and hearing
their current incarnation 'live', I have no hesitation in supporting it. But again, you're right. Whether they're in or not will not detract one bit from my enjoyment of them, now I have my Steely Dan T-shirt ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:24
I don't either... they might fit in my sub... but not prepared to go there.. not yet at least. Curious what the head of the J-R team says.. he's one hell of guy and open-minded. He was going to let me add Miles Davis... which no one has really wanted to touch. But I don't know if it is him that scares people..or the thought of doing his discography hahahhaha. That is why I didn't do it... not enough time. grrrrrr.. 
I'll trade you a used copy of Fish Out of Water for that shirt hahahah.
They played No. Virginia in July and we missed it.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:33
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I was a big fan of Steely Dan in the 70s when "Royal Scam" and "Aja" came out, and there's no doubt about it that in terms of musical arrangement and instrumental prowess and skill and all that, that they were breaking new ground, mixing pop sensibilities with ultra awesome jazz sensibilities. But they don't strike me as prog in one essential category: their lyrical senisibility, the band's attitude. I see them as more akin to Dylan than other jazz/prog bands of that era. More street smart, more cynical (in a profound way) than what typifies prog bands or jazz fusion bands.I think they are a legendary band, and if they get included, I'd like to post some reviews. But I never thought of them as prog, or even prog-related. Interesting thread.  ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 23:50
hmmmm... that is actually one ot the real strengths of the group.. An interview from 1980 MUSICIAN: I know you agonize over your lyrics. Does it ever frustrate you that with many of the people listening, they may be going in one ear and, with little in between to stop them, right out the other? BECKER: I assume that's the case for most of the audience, or at least a big part of it, and that's why we try to always make the lyrics not grab your attention. We want them to SOUND good with the music, even if you're not an English speaking person. MUSICIAN: But for those that are listening, atlas and dictionary in hand, you don't want the lyrics to be one-shot deals, like a comedy record that you put on once, then tire of it. BECKER: That's definitely a problem. We have to be cleverforget Dylan..... they weren't talking talking of changing the world... they were singing of the guy who shows teenagers porno flicks down the hall. You sing along to these songs.. not even realizing that the lyrical nature... often represents the seedier side of life. They sound great and often like....RPI in particular... just are a part of the music. and for the record... prog bands were knownin genral for their profound lyrics but not having them sure doesn't eliminate groups... you had groups like Caravan for example...that were very humourous and witty. Some that made no sense at all. There were many lyrical styles across prog.. from the nebulous to spacey.. to poignant and direct. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:04
------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:10
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I see your point...I think I missed it in your first post. It
does reinforce the notion that the band as a whole is rather hard to
categorize.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:46
I tried to avoid this thread, but being that i been mentioned without being part of itt, i believe I must enter.
In first place Micky: I have no fears, I love Progressive rock and this site, so that's the reason why I care about which bands are added (that's different to fear), if Prog wants to survive, it must keep the main identity alive and some additions can harm that identity.
In second place, my disagreement with creating national or regional sub-genres has no relation with Peter's opinion about Steely Dan not being Prog or even Prog Related, so your comparison is simply out of place.
Now my opinion being that I have been pulled against my will to this thread.
I'm a fan of Steely Dan and I agree he's a Fusion Musician but in the broad sense, so to clarify the issue, lets fiind some definitions
As you see, Jazz Fusion is the blending of JAZZ AND ANY OTHER GENRE, MAINLY ROCK, but we don't add to Prog Archives every Jazz Fusion band, we add those that blend at least two KEY elements:
Steely dan plays Fusion because they blend Jazz with Rock BUT MAINSTREAM ROCK and I dare to say with Pop and Funk also, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE PROG ROCK ELEMENT, so he shouldn't be added. I know mailto:M@X - M@X want to make this PROGRESSIVE ROCK site inclusive, but adding as many bands that have at least some relation with Prog, if not he and Ronny would had created General Music Archives and I'm sure would had been much more profitalble.
Just to finish, the Steely Dan issue has been talked several times:
And never has been inducted.
Is there a strike 18 rule?
 Iván
BTW: I know this is not a democracy, but a poll about Steely Dan has already been made and it indicates a tendency that reflects the opinion of the members, which while not mandatory, gives us some tendencies "Vox Populi, Vox Dei".
90% Of the voters believe Steely Dan should not be here, even Phil Collins has better numbers. ------------- 
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41979&KW=Steely+Dan&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41979&KW=Steely+Dan&PN=2 - 2 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41979&KW=Steely+Dan&PN=3 - 3 
[10.71%]Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 00:58
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hahahah... I knew you wanted to jump in... therefore I invited you. the time may be right for them to finally be inducted... they can fit in either of 3 sub-genres. It is only a matter of where.. and when. Like some that have posted here ... I have been against them in the past. I am open to it now... this, as you mentioned, has been debated to death. If Martin doesn't want them... Xover will look at them.. if we decide not to add them... we'll put this formally before the admins. . ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 04:09
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Hey, none of you cats are getting my T-shirt, man ! !
But I'll buy you a pitcher of Schlitz. Miles, Steely Dan.............what next? Marcus Miller under the Afro/street wise/funked up prog genre? Now, seriously, SD are hard to categorise and cut across the borders, but let's not let that stop us. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 05:02
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I've played Steely Dan and Donald Fagen (especially Nightfly) as part of many jazz rock playlists on my radioshow for quarter of a decade without hesitation, simply because they fit in with their special form of jazz fused with rock - ditto Joni Mitchell's mid/late 70's recordings. Most know my feeling wrt jazz rock and prog rock - especially as a member of the old guard who have always seen/heard prog as a fusion of rock with one or more other musical genre. Increasingly I feel, it's these johnnie come latelies who haven't been there from the start of progressive music, so not exposed firsthand to the genre before it got narrowed to the sort of music the main 5 bands produced 1971 - 1976. Certainly Steely Dan's music is miles away from Yes or Genesis, but it aint't miles away from the jazz rock fusion of MO, WR, Tasavallan Presidentti, BST, early Chicago etc. etc.
However, whilst part of the site is ultra-liberal to who is let in, we get into these anus-staring debates over the likes of Dan, who's output includes music more worthy of being here than Queen etc. etc. A final nag, if as was suggested by many 4 or 5 years ago, we had a section that had elected, selected albums from a band's discography which had genuine prog elements - rather than the whole shebang - then we would be better off, and maybe avoid debates about Dan, Styx etc. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 05:38
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Such debates are arising again and again - no wonder, this is a Forum. I think it's not that negative because it forces to think about subjects from time to time to prevent stagnation. But as Peter wrote before: not every good music is Progressive Rock! I would say only 'Aja' (which is my favourite Steely Dan release) knocks at the Prog door. That's it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 08:23
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Well, I can see the writing on the wall -- though roundly rejected before, Steely Dan will be added to the archives, by dint of their jazz-rock stylings. (As Dick will recall, i had trouble way back with jazz being added, but c'est la vie -- I can understand the inclusion, if not whole-heartedly support it.)
But, if, in the name of "inclusiveness" we are adding non prog musical forms that blend genres -- we've had trad-rock (i.e., Celtic rock or folk-rock) and jazz-rock -- then I assume that country-rock will soon be added as well. (If not, I'd like to know the reasoning.)
You can start by adding Neil Young and Wilco.
Later, we can explore various "world" musics, to look for any artists who are blending western and local forms in their art. I can also suggest several more popular jazzy artists to add, including Sting and Dave Matthews (doesn't matter if you don't like them).
And how about some smooth jazz -- that's a fusion of jazz and pop (or jazz and elevator muzak, as Dick would have it).
(I'm not kidding, BTW.) ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:23
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***Hint time*** The Admins and Site Owner would have certain reservations about a band that had been rejected many,many times suddenly being approved. Art Rock was split up to make it more manageable not to open the floodgates. There is a difference between having an inclusive addition policy and an "anything goes" policy. There is no problem with discussing these things but the answer has been a resounding no in the past, so what has changed in Steely Dan's music since the last "no"? Certainly our perception of Prog hasnt changed and members can be assured that only Prog Rock bands will be added. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:30
hmm...hahahhahah *confrontation time* just who has rejected them.... what team?... the admins for PR? ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:33
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in all seriousness.... I don't know if they really belong here...
and to be honest .. none of you does. That is why it is being
discussed here..
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:35
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this brings up a larger question I was too tired to bring up last night... this whole notion of jazz rock and fusion.. and PA's. Will touch on this later.. . time to grab a bite. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:39
See Ivan's post. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 17:40
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see my PM
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 19:38
While much prog is artistic, not all prog is. If artistry is the main qualification, then as Peter says, there are some in just about all genres. Do we get Dave Brubeck or Duke Ellington in ? How about Robert Johnson ? Intelligent or well thought out music is not limited to prog. And to add a little dig at some here - popular & commercially successful music is sometimes intelligent, well thought out & well made. But not much of it is really prog. I'd thought about suggesting Chris De Burgh, mainly for his albums Crusader & Spanish Train. But in the overall picture, these two albums & some earlier songs don't really tip him over into a prog artist. Mind you, I am one who wishes he hadn't morphed into an AOR star after the Ferryman. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:20
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One thing I regularly wrestle with is that we all tend to judge bands/artists by their catalogue of releases and our interpretation of them down the years, rather than equally important issues for bands that are still playing or touring, for example, live performance. I'm not saying live performance is more important, but it is a factor, I believe, to be taken into account in the assessment of the music of any band as may be the releases of the 70s or whenever.
I've contributed a number of posts, for what they are worth, about people posting opinions about bands as if they don't exist anymore. Examples that come to mind are with Jethro Tull who I saw over a year ago, and I thoroughly enjoyed them. People talk about them as if what they are doing now does not matter or as if they simply don't exist any more - but an incarnation of them does, right now. Absolute live performance [as opposed to live performance with the assistance of effects like backing tracks, for instance - thanks Brit and others], is for me what it's all about. For those of us who have played in bands, this is where it all starts, in cramped bedrooms, living rooms, garages, old school or church halls or whatever. It never starts in recording studios. Live performance is the start of any bands exposure and is their bread and butter. So, of course, we have studio produced albums with all the smoke, whistles and mirrors the studio brings, we have live albums which are inevitably more raw and exposed, we now have dvds, online takes and downloads etc. etc. and we have live performance - the 'nitty gritty', the heart and soul of all bands. As far as SD is concerned, recently seeing them and hearing them ,their musicianship, their relaxed approach, but perhaps ,more importantly, the live arrangement of these well hewn tunes and the variation this brings , helped to make my mind up . We should not discount what existing bands are doing NOW, not only in the studio but live, when assessing where they fit in the whole scheme of things. This is essentially a world tour for SD. They have, as all touring bands do on any larger scale tour, invested so much time, money and energy into getting their music out there and their slant on it, their interpretation [as it is theirs to interpret]. It's a shame more of us can't listen and hear the message. Clearly, not everybody gets the chance to see bands live, and this remains a problem. But for those of us who assume some responsibility in assessing bands and music [ other than by contributing to a forum like this],we owe it to ourselves, our readers or listeners, and to the world of music , as a whole , to explore such things, inform ourselves and be as thorough as we reasonably can, in our assessments. Such things may influence us to change our minds or, perhaps , more importantly, better inform us to help us make a valid decision. As far as SD is concerned, next time I'll see if I can get a spangled leather poncho, not just an Aja T- shirt, for chrissake.  ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: TheMadCap
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:26
| I would think that Steely Dan is progressive under Fusion. And that argument about not having Progressive Country or Bluegrass doesn't make any sense to me. Progressive does not mean rock. It means the music changes throughout one song. Also other arguments that they weren't English and they were popular should not have any factor. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:27
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^^ I understand where you are coming from as I am a fairly vocal supporter of live performances myself (and not just listenning to live albums). But the PA is an archive of the recorded works, not of the artist themselves - we rate & review the albums, not the groups. Also, not everyone can get the opportunity to see a band play live, yet we can all buy the CD. ------------- What? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:55
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It has nothing to do with popularity. I love Steely Dan, have all of their albums, and finally got to see them live not too long ago. My opinion of their music has never changed. They are not prog. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 21:15
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Thanks, Darq. I guess I'm talking about 'overall' assessment. I have to confess I don't know the criteria specifically used for considering admissions and I should have a look. I also don't get too concerned about bands who are admitted and those who aren't. Those involved in the decision making do a wonderful job, but they are inevitably like football or sports referees. They can never get it right in everyone's eyes despite their best endeavours.
The bottom line here is, to take up Micky's point again, in the case of SD, so many of us love 'em anyway . On a personal level, I can now see very good reasons for their inclusion, but if it doesn't happen, I won't be taking my bat and ball and going home . I also support Bela Fleck and the 'tones. That's another story, but the same applies from my point of view if they remain on the outer, as it were. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 21:16
All very nice but what on earth has this to do with whether SD should be included on a Prog Rock site? I am at a loss to understand the logic that basically says "ignore the studio albums, go out and hear them live." The studio albums are the bands written statement of intent, surely? What kind of message do these kind of threads send out? Over the last 12 months I've read on PA that all the following bands are Prog Rock bands: 1. Led Zepellin 2. The Who 3. Deep Purple 4. Steely Dan 5. Black Sabbath 6. Queen just off the top of my head. Each declaration was made in all sincerity. It is getting very silly. . |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 23:01
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TO TONY R:
There's no argument from me about the prog elements, or lack thereof, in the bands you've mentioned, however, as jazz/rock fusion is a valid genre, I have been able to satisfy myself anyway, that Steely Dan could qualify. Their recent live performance helped me down that path. I do not, however, like to be misquoted or blatantly misinterpreted when I have been careful in my choice of words in expressing my views. Please re-read the first paragraph of the post you have highlighted. I specifically say that live performance is not more important than a bands albums. I simply propose that it is another 'factor' to be taken into account. A summary of the logic of the argument as you have stated in these terms - 'ignore the studio albums, go out and hear them live' is either, 1. not my argument OR 2. an ill informed or hasty misconception of it. Frankly, I would have expected better. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 23:13
ahhhh... and the answer to your question Tony.. is an obvious one. Is is silly...because YOU don't agree.... The kind of message these threads send out is the nature of prog is subjective.. not matter how badly people want to think they have it all figured out and are the judge, jury, and executioners of prog. Outside of those bands that were part of the traditional prog movement in the 70's... every one of these groups in PA's is prog and here. only because we call it such, based on evaluating the music. The people who start these threads.. are doing the exact same thing. Not bothering with labels, tags and all that crap.. just listening to the music. Some we agree with.. and some we don't. You can't call suggestions for groups silly when you have different standards for admitting bands here. Yes it is a fact of life that the collabs know that double standard exists...read my first post in this thread... 3 strikes and I would not add them. Yet to the posters who start these threads again and again... they see this site as a place where you can find prog rock 'music'.... not music that has been lablelled by someone somewhere as 'prog' rock. I'll be my paycheck that the people here are more interested in the music itself.. rather than who history has defined as prog.. or not prog... that often being just by association. Want to explain why Hawkwind is here then.. yet not Steely Dan. Anyhow.. just thinking out loud. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 00:00
-------------
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Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 00:16
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Yes it does, thanks Ivan. The examples you use are helpful. As I noted in an earlier post, admissions teams have a tough job. Keep up the good work. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 00:46
| No to Steely Dan, Yes to John Cale |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 04:09
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Just to back up Tony's posts, the Admin team have great reservations about the addition of Steely Dan.
We would not normally get involved in genre team decisions, but in this case SD should not be added unless they have the explicit approval of the owners via the admin team.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 10:44
I'm not an expert on SD, though I have heard most of their albums, and like them a lot. However, I wish someone listened to the above wise words by Dick, who knows more about music than most of us
 , instead of ignoring him as it all too often happens. This doesn't mean I support SD's inclusion, or that I don't understand some people's reservations. Having been part of the Admin Team, I know that every controversial addition means spending a couple of weeks reprimanding people and closing threads, and no one wants to do that.
Finally, a word of clarification concerning Deep Purple. I know Tony was referring to me when he mentioned them in the list of bands that people have defined as prog. However, I was never given the time to explain my stance, which is quite different from "DP are prog". I'll do that in the future in another thread - now I have no time (posting from an Internet point in Milan).
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 16:58
Dick was dead on as usual... and Raff you have a more direct way of putting things than I do. I don't necessarily support their inclusion... but you better believe I understand why this group is called for again ...and again... and again for inclusion here. I see the reasons for not including them.. and the reasons for including them in a full prog sub. My concern. which I've been talking to Bob about ..are the team concept. My objectivity about SD can be, hell probably is , questioned since I'm a big fan... but are you going to question Richard's as well? That man KNOWS jazz-rock.
If Jazz Rock is a sub-genre here.. that team should at least be able to
decide whether it fits the site. This never has been about
Xover.. Dean and I have never even discussed the possiblity of adding
them. Our debates are open to all collabs. anyhow.... think this subject has been talked to death... in public at least. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: December 15 2007 at 17:16
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If Steely Dan would be on this site, Donald Fagen (solo) would have a good chance here as well
------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 16 2007 at 08:27
oh yeah.... he would.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MrBertstown
Date Posted: December 21 2007 at 22:28
My mom is a die-hard Steely Dan fan and In one book called Music Hound, Steely Dan was in the Art-Rock section. (Not making this up!)
Here's the songs that could give them the elegibility....
1-Do It Again
2-Fire in the Hole
3-Turn that Heartbeat over again
4-Bohittsava
5-The Boston Rag
6-King of the World
7-Your Gold Teeth (Part II)
8-Throw Back the Little Ones
9-Green Earings
10-Peg
Other than that...I consider them a Jazz-Rock Band like Chicago or Blood, Sweat, and Tears. ------------- Thank God for Kids who love Obscure Things. Lee Hazelwood (1929-2007) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 24 2007 at 12:27
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Steey Dan is at least prog related now. I used to think otherwise but Zep's inclusion changed things dramatically. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 25 2007 at 06:29
LOL. Everybody except for The Sex Pistols is at least prog related by that measuring stick.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 26 2007 at 17:53
well put... again....I refer people to Dick Heath's excellent post above. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 26 2007 at 19:46
Good enough for me. By the way, you need to move King of the World to the number one spot.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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