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micky View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:18
Originally posted by mrgd mrgd wrote:

I
Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion' banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as ' jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all their vocal contributions with aplomb.

The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee would just lap it up. I joyously did.

So there's no question about imo. IN

[ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD].


one thing we know though... is if there is one group of purists that can give prog purists a run for their money... it is jazz purists.  I think the guy who wrote the article sort of danced around that.  It seems fine to amp up the rock in jazz... but what about amping up the jazz in rock.  Is is still Jazz-Rock?  I would think it is a no brainer... but for all the people that cry about labels and blaa blaa blaa...  just as many will resort to those to them to try to sweep under the carpet groups that challenge their preconcieved notions of what or what not something is. (sounds ....prog-like doesn't it) Oh well.... as  I said it my first post in this thread..  whether they are here or not.. doesn't really matter.... the fans wil go on loving it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 21:09
I came back from Brisbane [Aust].after seeing them live on their 'Heavy Rollers 2007' tour last Sunday week, proudly sporting my 'Steely Dan T- shirt',[ on this occasion an 'Aja' design in the image of that wonderful album], extremely enthusiastic following the wonderment of the excellent concert I had seen and a little perplexed [ other than in my own mind] as to exactly where they fit in the genre laden world of music that is generally regarded as progressive.

[For those interested, I have posted a review of the concert under a 'Non Prog Music ' thread topic . I thought I might be crucified if I squeezed it in to the 'Live Performance Review' forum , as it seems to require the band reviewed to be prog - something which is not accepted here , universally or by majority, slim or otherwise].

Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion' banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as ' jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all their vocal contributions with aplomb.

The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee would just lap it up. I joyously did.

So there's no question about imo. IN

[ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD].
Looking still the same after all these years...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:00
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:


 
I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...

since this is an inclusive site.... maybe it should be taken up..  we do this to educate  the forum.
 
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is  related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.

see the article I quoted...  granted it is only an opinion... but  he makes pretty clear..and spends a hell of a lot of time explaining.. that it is not jazz-related.. .but jazz fusion. or Jazz-rock. Whatever you want to call it.
 
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site

try he music fan that likes complex music, with thoughtful lyrics... that you don't need to spend 20 minutes listening to.. and most importantly ... as you so eloquently said Peter... music you can also seal the deal with the ladies with.  Try doing that with Van Der Graf.   LOL There are lots of SD fans here Peter... that is the whole point here
 

Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added (life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues" are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category, would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.

you sound like Ivan with his fears that we will have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for Austrian prog to have it's own sub.  If they had a scene we'd know it.  If there were true prog punk, or prog country groups... we'd know it.  People would be calling for them.  Most importantly though.. .JR IS a subgenre here.
 
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates,

I have called for that since I became active as a collab..LOL yet the fact reamins that M@X and the admins want an inclusive site. 
 
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this. Smile

HeartLOL

I hope my position is undestood as well ...  Tongue
 
 


Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 19:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:46
Peter's post is a perfect,  far more eloquent statement of my own thoughts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:38
couldn't find it online.. so it must have been a book.. ... the interviewer had asked him to compare the complex music of SD to that of Yes..  the answer.. typical Fagen LOL

anyhow... food for thought... did find this though.. For those who think Steely Dan were jazz related or some sh*t like that. LOL

When it comes to fusion, most critics consider jazz'’s acceptance of rock, but not rock'’s acceptance of jazz. That has been quite unfortunate, since when it comes to the music of Donald Fagen and Walter Becker, better known as Steely Dan, many have missed out on some visionary fusion. Since their second album, Countdown to Ecstasy, Fagen/Becker have immersed their music in jazz. They even covered Duke's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" on the brilliant Pretzel Logic. Throughout their career they would experiment back and forth, engaging in some amazing results. But none of their albums captured this approach better than 1977's Aja (pronounced asia).

One of The Dan's major characteristics that has won them legions of fans is their devotion to articulate and complex music, usually played by a make shift band of top notch studio musicians. The second one features the dark perverse sense of humor that flows through Donald Fagen's lyrics in his deadpan delivery. Aja lightens up the perversity of the lyrics, but it'’s more intricate and complex than any of the other records. Essential to understanding Aja is understanding Steely Dan's commitment of having the production to sound completely flawless. That means they refuse to let any bad or missed notes in a solo reach the final product. With the exception of the utterly "free" solos like Wayne Shorter'’s on the title track, every note has been painstakingly envisioned and thought out by Fagen and Becker before it is mastered to the final product. Much like their idols such as Duke Ellington, they complete the whole picture before laying the paint on the canvas. That distinguishes their work from most recorded jazz, in which spontaneity is prized no matter what imperfections may result.

After spending a good portion of their time touring (which they hated), the guys settled in with some of the best studio musicians around and began to do strictly studio work--much to the dismay of their record company. After completing another great record, Katy Lied, and the so-so rock album Royal Scam without a hit single or tour, ABC Records put the pressure on for some radio-friendly pop singles. The result was Aja. Although it'’s got a lot of long, intricate and complex jazz-based tracks, strangely enough it became a hit and even won a Grammy. Upon its release many cited it as the band'’s best effort, while others decried it as a bloated ego trip full of crack musicians. As it stands now, Aja stands as an absolutely brilliant slice of smooth that could easily stand beside such records as George Benson'’s Breezin or Grover Washington Jr’s Mister Magic.

Opening with a track about a man forgiving his cheating wife, "Black Cow" sets the soft-toned texture of the record. Subtle drops of piano, horns and synths flourish in and out through the track, while Tom Scott's horn pulls the track together. For the most part the record continues in this vein. It’s a world of soft-as-silk jazz that would be popular with in the ‘80s with a variety of performers. But on tracks such as "Peg," pop chops slide into the mix. Although this may seem discouraging for some, "Peg" is a beauty of a pop based jazz that few songwriters have ever pulled off. Its layers of synth and horns mixed with gorgeous harmonies proved pop doesn’t have to be entirely based on three chord progressions. But the two most experimental tracks are also the most satisfying: "Aja" and "Deacon Blues."

These two pieces make this disc a good starting point for the jazz loversfirst adventure into Steely Dan. The title track certainly corners their jazz vision unlike any other. From the amazing Wayne Shorter solo to the graceful touches of Michael Omartians piano, Dan’s vision of smooth jazz was never as fully realized. "Deacon Blues," although a single, is by far one of their finest tracks. Its based on a solid funk line, driven by Chuck Rainey’s bass. Subtle solos, like Pete Christlieb’s sax work, recall the work of the late Grover Washington Jr. This intuitive combination helps make all angles of the track genius. Filled with synth, plus acoustic and electric guitars via Becker and Larry Carlton, this piece offers a hypnotic taste of various fusions, showing the unique vision that only Steely Dan could possess.

Aja stands as a unique record in both the jazz and pop genres. It is laid out with complex horn charts, a variety of synths, blazing solos and oddly timed songs. The album creates an original fusion that may seem strangely out of place by jazz or rock enthusiasts, yet it’s perfectly natural for listeners comfortable in each genre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:23
can't remember the quote.. but Fagen in the 70's was asked about Steely Dan's music vs. Yes.  It was illluminating hahhah

damn I need to find where I read that...


Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 18:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:15
I guess you have a point, It seems I am blurring artistic, prog, and innovative together a bit...
 
I need to get my priorities straight, but for someone who wasnt around in the seventies, it isnt unreasonable for them to think SD could be sudo progressive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2007 at 15:56
Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:

BTW
 
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored.
Confused So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
 
 
Ermm"prog" = "artistic" now?
 
 
Hmmmm.....
 
Lets not get offensive, I just think that they give off a vibe with something more than your average swingy, pop, jazz rock group if you get where I'm comin' from.
 I apologize for the seemingly disrespectful tone of my reply. I do like to argue these musical matters in a forthright, forceful fashion, but sometimes this text-only, faceless medium leads me to forget my manners. (To be honest, I had some doubts about my post myself.)
 
I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...
 
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is  related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.
 
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site by them, then turning to classic prog, or 99.999% of what is listed here, and saying "Oh, this music is quite similar to Steely Dan." Nor would I recommend (old) Yes, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, or IQ, or the Mars Volta, or prog metal, etc, to someone simply because he told me he likes SD.
 
I think the widely-accepted interpretation of the term "progressive rock/prog," or even "prog related" has to be narrower than you'd make it, or else whatever shreds of meaning that outdated term might still have are lost.
 
Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added (life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues" are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category, would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.
 
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates, or else this site will need a name change and new, much-broader focus to allow the addition of ALL forms of music, and all of the diverse stuff which we (many and varied) progfans enjoy and consider "good."Stern%20Smile 
 
Heck, I like The Eagles, Dwight Yoakam, Lyle Lovett, Wilco and Steve Earle. To me, they're well above average for "country" artists, and they push the boundaries of country, blend and explore various genres, etc. If I managed to have them added (not that I want to) would Dolly Parton, George Strait and Shania Twain be far behind? (Those latter ultra-commercial country artists would be related to my favourites, now wouldn't they?)
 
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this. Smile
 
 


Edited by Peter - September 25 2007 at 16:04
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:14
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:

BTW
 
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored.
Confused So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
 
 
Ermm"prog" = "artistic" now?
 
 
Hmmmm.....
 
Lets not get offensive, I just think that they give off a vibe with something more than your average swingy, pop, jazz rock group if you get where I'm comin' from.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:09
^ Andu, I colour my ol' PA comrade Ivan the Terrible red from way back, when I first used to tease him about his "commie" Russian name.
 
A little inside joke 'twixt he and I, doncha know!
 
Plus, he's such a bleeding heart leftist....Wink


Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 22:10
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:02
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

you are a piece of work Peter  LOL Looking forward to meeting you someday when I get back out west
EmbarrassedThanks, Mickle.
Nine out of ten progholes who've met me agree: I'm up to 63% more handsome in real life (and seemingly thinner in metric, too). Approve
 
 
 
And that's left of east, then north, to you.
 
Here's a map:
 
                                           North Pole  (no penguins)
                                                    ^
                                                    ^ (trees stop here)
                                                    ^
                                               Peter
                                                     ^
                                                        ^
_____________________________________________________________
                                                            ^                             (International Smog Line)
                                                                 ^
                                                                 Micky
                                                                     v
                                                                    v
                                                                   v
                                                                  v (civil rights stop here)
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                Ivan
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                 v                                                           ^
                                                             penguins                                               N
                                                                                                                          W  Tony   
                                                                                                                             S
                                                                                                                             



We need to keep this safe and never lose it! Clap

Just one correction, though: the blue font was needed for Ivan Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:00

I think the Steely Dan controversy is actually kind of interesting.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:56
Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:

BTW
 
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored.
Confused So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
 
 
Ermm"prog" = "artistic" now?
 
 
Hmmmm.....


Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:58
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:52
Geek Re the Chinese prog, I found these oddly familiar lyrics, from a Fuking prog outfit called No!
 
"I get up,
I get run down (by a tank)
I get up
I get run down (by a tank)...."
 
 
 
Hmmmm... the mystical meaning is unclear, but apparently it's available on a compilation called Greatest Hits of Glorious People's Red Army Against  Traitorous Malcontent Running Dogs of Capitalist Imperialism.
 
Catchy title, anyway....Cool


Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:53
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:47
BTW
 
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:43
Snurk! Titter! Wink
 
Thanks, KoSi fan tutti! Hug
 
Vroom vroom,
KLR,
P
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:37
Oh, that's brilliant.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:35
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

you are a piece of work Peter  LOL Looking forward to meeting you someday when I get back out west
EmbarrassedThanks, Mickle.
Nine out of ten progholes who've met me agree: I'm up to 63% more handsome in real life (and seemingly thinner in metric, too). Approve
 
 
 
And that's left of east, then north, to you.
 
Here's a map:
 
                                           North Pole  (no penguins)
                                                    ^
                                                    ^ (trees stop here)
                                                    ^
                                               Peter
                                                     ^
                                                        ^
_____________________________________________________________
                                                            ^                             (International Smog Line)
                                                                 ^
                                                                 Micky
                                                                     v
                                                                    v
                                                                   v
                                                                  v (civil rights stop here)
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                Ivan
                                                                 v
                                                                 v
                                                                 v                                                           ^
                                                             penguins                                               N
                                                                                                                          W  Tony   
                                                                                                                             S
                                                                                                                             


Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:36
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:39
I wish I had Aja or pretzel logic.
 
I have Gaucho and some greatest hits album, but they are a bit too poppy, with minimal jazz jam session time as what seem to be on the above two. Great band though, just need a bit more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:33
I think they are one HELL of a group Dean...  I'll see about getting you some samples LOL
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