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MadcapLaughs84 View Drop Down
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Points: 658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2007 at 11:28

It depends of the relationship between the musicians and of cpurse if the have liberty to express themselves with some arrangements on each song.
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Points: 5111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2007 at 11:28
Originally posted by Gravity Eyelids Gravity Eyelids wrote:

I read an interview with Rich Barbieri of PT where he complains that SW isn't the only one contributing to PT. He says it is very much a band effort and all the members contribute to the sound. So I guess he's tired of being forgotten about.

 
...and he's had it all before with David Sylvian in Japan.  I think he must be really tired of it by now!
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Points: 198 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2007 at 17:37
Ok, so I have to rectify a few things in my earlier post.
It turns out I was confounding what happened with Marillion with some other band (or maybe a frequent problem), but I think the catalyst to the band's separation from Fish lies in a manager Fish disagreed on maintaining. Probably some previous pressure was behind them and the cracks were already beginning to show...to later crumble. I think, also, that it was a producer or an engineer that debased Rothery.
Anyhow, sorry for misleading you. The point still stays, though.

Edited by Aspiring hope - February 14 2007 at 17:38

This is why you should let Robin save the day...
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Points: 610 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2007 at 14:03
My experience as a singer/songwriter who has played in bands from the 70s to the 80s is: IT DOESN'T WORK, least not to LAST. As a songwriter I can't stand a band taking my compositions to somewhere I didn't want them to go, rehearsing hours on bits made to embarrass me, as a band-member I don't want a dominating person using me as a slave for HIS ideas... so what to do ? The only solution I see is paying professional musicians for the JOB to serve me. And if I was to serve somebody else that way they'd have to pay me, too.
...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2007 at 14:15
I think it works just fine. As a musician, I contributed to my band with ideas, passages and/or songs, and if someone could add something better to spice things up, or give the song the new direction, why not?

If you're a musican, your part is always significant. If you're playing in the band, and love the band, your ultimate goal is music.  There is no place for ego-trippers.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2007 at 14:44
at the VdGG reunion concert in London on May 6th 2005 Peter Hammill deliberately went to the back of the stage during instrumental passages in which he did not have to play an instrument himself, occasionally pointing at band members, to demonstrate that VdGG is more than just PH + a backing band (he paced around like a tiger in a cage when he did that). this can be nicely seen in the video of "Killer" on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaPTXK94UBA


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 610 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2007 at 11:01
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

I think it works just fine. As a musician, I contributed to my band with ideas, passages and/or songs, and if someone could add something better to spice things up, or give the song the new direction, why not?

If you're a musican, your part is always significant. If you're playing in the band, and love the band, your ultimate goal is music.  There is no place for ego-trippers.
 
Oh my perhaps, according to my own songs, I'm an ego-tripper... I perceive them in my mind with a sketch of what they should sound like already... and that's where I want them to go. It depends on the musicians you're with, of this I'm sure, maybe I've worked with the wrong ones... I've learned that, with one person who's really diggin' it, it can work just fine, but with more than one... it's strictly limited to me, see, I#m in love with the songs rather than any band and I rather do it all by myself than waste time on arrangements I didn't intend. It's always a source of conflict when a musician 2uses" a band as a platform for his songs and ideas, the "band"-idea is ending pretty soon then... why did the Dire-Straits-Line up change and change and change after the second album ? It's because it was MARK KNOPFLER'S forum for his songs.
A band should be a unit working together, pulling in all their ideas... and that's not my way of working, so I rather pay for professional musicians to play what I want them to play than abuse time and talents with a wrong label...
As a BJH-fan I do believe that the problems between Les Holroyd and John Lees/Woolly Wolstenholme came from there... BJH had stopped being a band as Woolly left, Holroyd rather saw BJH as a platform to record/release and play his own songs the way he wanted them, and because of the success build mainly on what had come before, it was an "easy" way to do it without having to have another "breakthrough" as a solo-artist... with the name established... don't wanna say he didn't like playing John's songs, but the BAND-idea got lost more and more and success appeared to be deceptive later on.
Don't know if I'm an ego-tripper that much, I'm just a songwriter who knows what he wants. There's a place for other people's ideas, too, but I want to have the last word with my songs and I wanna make the choice. If I'm working with somebody else on their songs it's my intention to help and keep them going where they want and I wanna remain in the background cause that's where I belong then, it's theirs and it's no BAND to me. I'm supporting a female singer/songwriter now so she can take anything she's learned with her and go ahead without me, it's not meant to be a lasting partnership at all ( she'd have to pay me then ).
 
...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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el böthy View Drop Down
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2007 at 12:04
Originally posted by rupert rupert wrote:

Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

I think it works just fine. As a musician, I contributed to my band with ideas, passages and/or songs, and if someone could add something better to spice things up, or give the song the new direction, why not?

If you're a musican, your part is always significant. If you're playing in the band, and love the band, your ultimate goal is music.  There is no place for ego-trippers.
 
Oh my perhaps, according to my own songs, I'm an ego-tripper... I perceive them in my mind with a sketch of what they should sound like already... and that's where I want them to go. It depends on the musicians you're with, of this I'm sure, maybe I've worked with the wrong ones... I've learned that, with one person who's really diggin' it, it can work just fine, but with more than one... it's strictly limited to me, see, I#m in love with the songs rather than any band and I rather do it all by myself than waste time on arrangements I didn't intend. It's always a source of conflict when a musician 2uses" a band as a platform for his songs and ideas, the "band"-idea is ending pretty soon then... why did the Dire-Straits-Line up change and change and change after the second album ? It's because it was MARK KNOPFLER'S forum for his songs.
A band should be a unit working together, pulling in all their ideas... and that's not my way of working, so I rather pay for professional musicians to play what I want them to play than abuse time and talents with a wrong label...
As a BJH-fan I do believe that the problems between Les Holroyd and John Lees/Woolly Wolstenholme came from there... BJH had stopped being a band as Woolly left, Holroyd rather saw BJH as a platform to record/release and play his own songs the way he wanted them, and because of the success build mainly on what had come before, it was an "easy" way to do it without having to have another "breakthrough" as a solo-artist... with the name established... don't wanna say he didn't like playing John's songs, but the BAND-idea got lost more and more and success appeared to be deceptive later on.
Don't know if I'm an ego-tripper that much, I'm just a songwriter who knows what he wants. There's a place for other people's ideas, too, but I want to have the last word with my songs and I wanna make the choice. If I'm working with somebody else on their songs it's my intention to help and keep them going where they want and I wanna remain in the background cause that's where I belong then, it's theirs and it's no BAND to me. I'm supporting a female singer/songwriter now so she can take anything she's learned with her and go ahead without me, it's not meant to be a lasting partnership at all ( she'd have to pay me then ).
 

I know what you mean, I also am the main composer of my band...yet I now can say that changes made by the rest of the band or by all of us, while it´s good, is not something to fight...it´s better actually, as a band at least...some ideas I sometimes have sound...well, not as good as I imagined they would, so to make some changes comes in handy and almoust always, the result is good
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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rupert View Drop Down
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Points: 610 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by rupert rupert wrote:

Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

I think it works just fine. As a musician, I contributed to my band with ideas, passages and/or songs, and if someone could add something better to spice things up, or give the song the new direction, why not?

If you're a musican, your part is always significant. If you're playing in the band, and love the band, your ultimate goal is music.  There is no place for ego-trippers.
 
Oh my perhaps, according to my own songs, I'm an ego-tripper... I perceive them in my mind with a sketch of what they should sound like already... and that's where I want them to go. It depends on the musicians you're with, of this I'm sure, maybe I've worked with the wrong ones... I've learned that, with one person who's really diggin' it, it can work just fine, but with more than one... it's strictly limited to me, see, I#m in love with the songs rather than any band and I rather do it all by myself than waste time on arrangements I didn't intend. It's always a source of conflict when a musician 2uses" a band as a platform for his songs and ideas, the "band"-idea is ending pretty soon then... why did the Dire-Straits-Line up change and change and change after the second album ? It's because it was MARK KNOPFLER'S forum for his songs.
A band should be a unit working together, pulling in all their ideas... and that's not my way of working, so I rather pay for professional musicians to play what I want them to play than abuse time and talents with a wrong label...
As a BJH-fan I do believe that the problems between Les Holroyd and John Lees/Woolly Wolstenholme came from there... BJH had stopped being a band as Woolly left, Holroyd rather saw BJH as a platform to record/release and play his own songs the way he wanted them, and because of the success build mainly on what had come before, it was an "easy" way to do it without having to have another "breakthrough" as a solo-artist... with the name established... don't wanna say he didn't like playing John's songs, but the BAND-idea got lost more and more and success appeared to be deceptive later on.
Don't know if I'm an ego-tripper that much, I'm just a songwriter who knows what he wants. There's a place for other people's ideas, too, but I want to have the last word with my songs and I wanna make the choice. If I'm working with somebody else on their songs it's my intention to help and keep them going where they want and I wanna remain in the background cause that's where I belong then, it's theirs and it's no BAND to me. I'm supporting a female singer/songwriter now so she can take anything she's learned with her and go ahead without me, it's not meant to be a lasting partnership at all ( she'd have to pay me then ).
 

I know what you mean, I also am the main composer of my band...yet I now can say that changes made by the rest of the band or by all of us, while it´s good, is not something to fight...it´s better actually, as a band at least...some ideas I sometimes have sound...well, not as good as I imagined they would, so to make some changes comes in handy and almoust always, the result is good
 
LUCKY MAN you are. Well, I'm not unlucky for what I have in my mind mostly turns out to be as good as it is there and it works well when I'm playing alone, but I wouldn't know what to do if I weren't able to handle the keyboard duties, drum-programming etc. too ( I'm a learned guitarplayer ). Right: If the changes serve the song and make it better it's fine, but still I wanna have the last word cause they are MY songs... and it's not easy to find the right partners. I wouldn't mind playing songs of others, too ( in fact, at my gigs, I'm doing a lot of coverversions ) but I still don't feel ready for a band again.
Maybe I'd try in future times but that'd definately mean moving on two tracks - one the band, the other "Rupert solo", and I don't know if there is time enough...
...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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el böthy View Drop Down
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2007 at 20:13
Originally posted by rupert rupert wrote:

Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by rupert rupert wrote:

Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

I think it works just fine. As a musician, I contributed to my band with ideas, passages and/or songs, and if someone could add something better to spice things up, or give the song the new direction, why not?

If you're a musican, your part is always significant. If you're playing in the band, and love the band, your ultimate goal is music.  There is no place for ego-trippers.
 
Oh my perhaps, according to my own songs, I'm an ego-tripper... I perceive them in my mind with a sketch of what they should sound like already... and that's where I want them to go. It depends on the musicians you're with, of this I'm sure, maybe I've worked with the wrong ones... I've learned that, with one person who's really diggin' it, it can work just fine, but with more than one... it's strictly limited to me, see, I#m in love with the songs rather than any band and I rather do it all by myself than waste time on arrangements I didn't intend. It's always a source of conflict when a musician 2uses" a band as a platform for his songs and ideas, the "band"-idea is ending pretty soon then... why did the Dire-Straits-Line up change and change and change after the second album ? It's because it was MARK KNOPFLER'S forum for his songs.
A band should be a unit working together, pulling in all their ideas... and that's not my way of working, so I rather pay for professional musicians to play what I want them to play than abuse time and talents with a wrong label...
As a BJH-fan I do believe that the problems between Les Holroyd and John Lees/Woolly Wolstenholme came from there... BJH had stopped being a band as Woolly left, Holroyd rather saw BJH as a platform to record/release and play his own songs the way he wanted them, and because of the success build mainly on what had come before, it was an "easy" way to do it without having to have another "breakthrough" as a solo-artist... with the name established... don't wanna say he didn't like playing John's songs, but the BAND-idea got lost more and more and success appeared to be deceptive later on.
Don't know if I'm an ego-tripper that much, I'm just a songwriter who knows what he wants. There's a place for other people's ideas, too, but I want to have the last word with my songs and I wanna make the choice. If I'm working with somebody else on their songs it's my intention to help and keep them going where they want and I wanna remain in the background cause that's where I belong then, it's theirs and it's no BAND to me. I'm supporting a female singer/songwriter now so she can take anything she's learned with her and go ahead without me, it's not meant to be a lasting partnership at all ( she'd have to pay me then ).
 

I know what you mean, I also am the main composer of my band...yet I now can say that changes made by the rest of the band or by all of us, while it´s good, is not something to fight...it´s better actually, as a band at least...some ideas I sometimes have sound...well, not as good as I imagined they would, so to make some changes comes in handy and almoust always, the result is good
 
LUCKY MAN you are. Well, I'm not unlucky for what I have in my mind mostly turns out to be as good as it is there and it works well when I'm playing alone, but I wouldn't know what to do if I weren't able to handle the keyboard duties, drum-programming etc. too ( I'm a learned guitarplayer ). Right: If the changes serve the song and make it better it's fine, but still I wanna have the last word cause they are MY songs... and it's not easy to find the right partners. I wouldn't mind playing songs of others, too ( in fact, at my gigs, I'm doing a lot of coverversions ) but I still don't feel ready for a band again.
Maybe I'd try in future times but that'd definately mean moving on two tracks - one the band, the other "Rupert solo", and I don't know if there is time enough...

I know what you mean with wanting you have the last word, its completly understandable...sometimes your bandmates dont get that, as they are not songwriters, and I normally dont say that either, as I dont want to cause trouble if there is an other way to make it work. Luckly this far, we havent have a real problem, ok we are fearly new, but I dont think we will have real problems either. Actually now, the rest of the band is developing some compositions on their own for the band, which is the ultimate goal for me, to play songs from all of us.
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Bern View Drop Down
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Points: 11746 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2007 at 20:33
It's a fact that the Genesis members got tired of being seen as a backing band for Peter Gabriel after a while. I've read that a lot.


Edited by Bern - February 19 2007 at 20:33

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Points: 1991 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2007 at 20:47
I'm not band material either... it's not being an ego-tripper, it's just being honest as an artist that you want to express your music your way and not be constricted by the ideas of others
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2007 at 10:25
Hm, if you have almost 100% developed idea in your head how the song should like, then I guess it's better if the band follows you blindly.

But the catch with my band is that we all love similar musical style(s), and that formula works perfectly. Also, if all the band memebers are fans of genre that I am fan of  too, it's more likely that they will like my songsSmile...and it's more likely that I will like the drumming, keyboard tapestries, guitar solo, flute solo etc. And - and that's the most important thing - music will be expressive, emotional, and we will be able to feel that certain "something" in the air.

If the musicans are not enjoying the music that they play, listeners will be aware of it (no matter how good the musical idea might be).
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Points: 195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2007 at 16:11
Mathew Bellamy from Muse could be another example. He does all the lyrics, and the music composition, he plays the keyboard, guitar and sings. And all of these quite well dare say. NObody cares if the bass player or the drummer ditch the band, as long as Bellamy keeps rockin. Besides, he is an excellent frontman on stage!
"Tis your birth and faith that wrong you...not I."
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2007 at 22:03
Originally posted by Anguiad Anguiad wrote:

Mathew Bellamy from Muse could be another example. He does all the lyrics, and the music composition, he plays the keyboard, guitar and sings. And all of these quite well dare say. NObody cares if the bass player or the drummer ditch the band, as long as Bellamy keeps rockin. Besides, he is an excellent frontman on stage!

True, but I dont think they´ll ever leave the band, as they have been together sicne they were like 13 years old... and...who would want them?LOLLOLLOL, now that was just meanEmbarrassed
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Points: 846 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2007 at 22:45
Originally posted by Zappa88 Zappa88 wrote:

Originally posted by lightbulb_son lightbulb_son wrote:

I remember seeing Porcupine Tree live, and it did feel to me that the show focused entirely on Steven. Gavin was off in one corner, John Wesley was shoved off to the side, Barbieri was only partially visible in the back, and their bass player (sorry I forget his name) was just standing by a stack of amps looking bored. Steve is in the middle of the stage, spotlight on, joking with the crowd, and though it was a great performance, I really felt bad for everyone else. Even John's solos where he is supposed to be the center were very small, no spotlight, passionless affairs.
 
 
I wish PT could be more like Opeth, both bands have a clear creative genius and excellent surrounding cast, but Mikael doesn't seem to grab the spotlight, Peter gets these great solos, and of course Martin is always present back there pounding away (at least he was).
 
Hmm, when I saw PT, John Wesley wasn't performing with them. (This was 2002). Steve Wilson WAS in fact in the center of the stage but Colin Edwin stepped in front of him numerous times when his bass parts got heavy. Also Richard Barbieri was the main speaker to the crowd during the down-time. Gavin did only get the spotlight once or twice but it did stay on him a while!


You know, I personally always knew Barbieri and the others had plenty to do with the music, I never forgot about them... I think why people forget about them is because Wilson and Harrison are the only ones interesting to watch. (And the drummer can never be the face of the band, there never credited for any writing talent)
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Points: 18039 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2007 at 22:49
Originally posted by Bern Bern wrote:

It's a fact that the Genesis members got tired of being seen as a backing band for Peter Gabriel after a while. I've read that a lot.


In fact, didn't the drummer fantasize about being in the lead singer's shoes for years? LOL
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Points: 610 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 12:09
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

I'm not band material either... it's not being an ego-tripper, it's just being honest as an artist that you want to express your music your way and not be constricted by the ideas of others
ClapRIGHT, pal !
...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !
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