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Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down
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Points: 1751 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:10
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

My point is that Cheesecakemouse's definition of prog is so vague that all sorts of bands that experiment with different types of music and sounds, and all experimental bands for that matter that any band that has their own unique sound could be called prog.  
 
No that isn't my definition mine is an eclectic range of styles mixed up to produce something unique. On an interview about Genesis Peter Gabrial defined prog the same way.
This is want makes LZ different from say Metellica, Metellica from as far as my knowledge is concerned has never, to my attention, produced music so elcectic as LZ. LZ isn't just metal it has many other styles mixed in it as I mentioned earlier.



  
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Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down
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Points: 1751 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2006 at 21:30
By the way I've been listening to Carouselambra on their album In through out the door. Carouslambra is without a doubt prog. So my list has increased to at lleast 12 LZ prog songs.



  
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2006 at 23:01
The power of pre-conceived notions...
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Points: 1751 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 03:05
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

The power of pre-conceived notions...
 
What you just said there is a pre-concieved notion about my opinions. After all you can't read my mind.
 Anyway you mustn't consider VDGG prog because they arn't as complex either.
In the end all the prog bands that you consider non prog because they are not complex  is infact consistant with LZ being here, since you must take this into consideration why don't you write a thread about how you think less complex prog such as Krautrock, much of Space rock/psychodelia, Electronic Prog  should not be in the archives rather than target LZ.


Edited by Cheesecakemouse - November 24 2006 at 03:40



  
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Points: 20251 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 05:12
Look, I fought against Zep's inclusion because I thought it was bringing nothing needful to the site (as with previous controversial inclusions it usually berings more harm than good), but now that it is in, (and rightly placed in prog-related) I am certainly not fighting it anymore. But even if there are ten tracks that are proggy (and so far I fully defend 7 or 8 of them), it is still not much (and not enough IMHO) to warrant their inclusion. But I have winged reviews of Zep's album in the last 24 hours just to legitimize their inclusion.
 
 
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

 
 
By the way how come you call In the Light not prog when can't *really fully* remember it? I actually has middle eastern music mixed with blues into an epic piece. >> the fusion of blues with other musics can be considered as progressive, but if we do not draw the line somewhere
 
Also over the hills and far evolves from a folky piece into a funky jam an them back into a folky piece again, Mixxing different influences can be progressive, as long that is more than just that. 
 
Whole Lotta Love isn't just blues what about that psychedelic part in the middle?  >> this is then more proto-prog
Stairway to heaven is a mixture of folk, celtic music and blues, that evolve throughout  >> I agreed with this
How Many More times is a willie dixon blues song but is rearranged into something unique just like ELP rearranged classical songs. >> I love that track and eventually can give you a half point, because it is not really standard blues anymore.
 
Four Sticks is prog it has odd time signatures and thoe brilliant proggy keyboards. >> I'll listen to it afain this WE
 
 
But there's no point debating it, I have a feeling no matter how much evidence I show in LZ's favour you'll just deny it. You havn't actually backed up why you don't think these songs are not prog. >> well I did say that six of your ten tracks were proggy (even defended Kashmir and Achilles against Sasquamo) and the one we aredebating on, are side orders of prog >> fusion of different styles.
 
 
LZ combined mythology with folk funk blues and heavy rock  and the odd change in time signature to create something unique. Pretty much in line with their prog contemporarys, Its just they took a different root. Their music still takes you on journeys of the mind, its just they're not as complicated as the symphonic and art rock groups; thats why they're in prog related.  >> read my post above this quoteWink
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Sasquamo View Drop Down
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 08:54
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

My point is that Cheesecakemouse's definition of prog is so vague that all sorts of bands that experiment with different types of music and sounds, and all experimental bands for that matter that any band that has their own unique sound could be called prog.  
 
No that isn't my definition mine is an eclectic range of styles mixed up to produce something unique. On an interview about Genesis Peter Gabrial defined prog the same way.
This is want makes LZ different from say Metellica, Metellica from as far as my knowledge is concerned has never, to my attention, produced music so elcectic as LZ. LZ isn't just metal it has many other styles mixed in it as I mentioned earlier.


Why don't you identify the various styles fused by the really popular prog then?
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yarstruly View Drop Down
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Points: 1322 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 10:44
Good Call! They deserve to be here!
Facebook hashtags:

#100greatestprogrockchallenge
#scottssongbysong
#scottsspotlight
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Points: 84 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 11:03
This site is here to make money, Nothing wrong with that. My picks of Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, Cabaret Voltaire, Floh de Cologne are so far down the list you may as well pull an arse-hair out and call it your first born
    

Edited by TheProgtologist - November 24 2006 at 19:45
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Freak View Drop Down
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Points: 304 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 12:36
I guess this means there are going to be a lot of new prog fans in the world!
 
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akin View Drop Down
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Points: 976 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 15:24
This kind of thread is really useful? I doubt.
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Cheesecakemouse View Drop Down
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Points: 1751 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2006 at 15:44
I think this debate has run its course.



  
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Points: 173 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 12:15
What a poor decision. It's painfully misleading to people trying to come to this website and understand progressive rock. That is what is wrong with it.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 12:35
[QUOTE=Asyte2c00]

^Pute these bands/artsist in first.  I sent the material for Japan's inclusion
 
to PA using the band submission procedure posted in another thread.   
 
Zeppelin.  Good band. have everything by them.  Not for PA though. 
 
 [/QUOTE]

Sorry for reacting late, but as some of you know I was away for professional reasons, so I missed the whole backlash of LZ's addition.

First of all, I'd be grateful if you could avoid using those huge fonts next time, as it makes reading difficult, as well as creating problems to those who have a a slow connection.

As to Japan... We have been discussing the matter in the Collabs section, but it seems most people are against the addition. Some have even suggested adding Human League and Visage if Japan are added... Therefore, I think it would be better for the time being to avoid throwing fuel on to the fire of controversy. Personally, as one half of the Art Rock team, I like the band and think they wouldn't be a bad addition at all (Micky is much less familiar with them, so he left the matter in my hands). In any case, I thank you for sending us the relevant material, which we hope may be used in the future.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 15:57
People! Remember! They are in the Prog Related category, a non-Prog category, so the site does not claim they are Prog, only slightly related to Prog.

Edited by Philéas - November 29 2006 at 15:57
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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

People! Remember! They are in the Prog Related category, a non-Prog category, so the site does not claim they are Prog, only slightly related to Prog.
 
Ah, but all late 60s - mid 70s rock is "slightly related" to prog.Confused
 
Especially the stuff we like.
 
Prog is related to classic rock -- not the other way around.Stern Smile
 
Prog is the sub-genre, not rock. It seems to me if we need the Beatles, Doors, Zeppelin, etc, then we just need a rock site -- where the presence of the Beatles, Doors, Zeppelin, Talk Talk, Queen, Radiohead, etc is a given, and prog and metal get listed as a matter of course, because they are well known, accepted off-shoots of ROCK.
 
It makes sense for a rock site to include prog as one of its subdivisions, but IMO it makes very little sense for a "prog" site to include regular rock as the imaginary, artificial, subjective category "prog related.". Effectively, rock icons like the Doors, Beatles, Purple, etc, become "second class" here -- not qualified for "full" membership (or even five-star reviews, under the current system), but listed nonetheless. That risks looking like a self-serving, cynical grab for membership numbers (and thus advertising dollars), to me.
 
There is too much subjectivity involved in saying "the Doors are closer to prog than Bowie," in my opinion. On a site that was a broader rock site, though (as opposed to one like this, which is supposedly of a much narrower focus) the exact classification of an artist (especially one like Bowie, who has spanned several classifications in his varied career) need not be a big concern: Doors are filed under "D," Bowie under "B."
 
The whole notion of "progressive rock/progressive music" is already fraught with subjectivity and vagueness, IMO. To then try to decide what is "related" to this amorphous, seemingly undefinable thing (which means something different now, than it did in its heyday) is a recipe for endless discord and confusion, IMO.
 
Again, I think the root of the problem is the very notion of "progressive" rock (or music). "Progressive," much like "good" or "bad," is mostly a value judgment IMO -- it is in the "ear of the beholder." (Formerly, it referred to a historical movement, and a certain cadre of artists in rock.)
 
I think the term has really outlived its usefulness as anything but a way to refer to those old bands. (What is truly "progressive" about repeating formula?)
 
And I think "prog related" is only useful for starting arguments.Thumbs Down


Edited by Peter Rideout - November 29 2006 at 18:50
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:12
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

By the way I've been listening to Carouselambra on their album In through out the door. Carouslambra is without a doubt prog. So my list has increased to at lleast 12 LZ prog songs.
 
I doubt it.Wink
 
 
Prog is an increasingly subjective notion, it would seem. Bands and albums that weren't "prog," at the time, are now. Why is that?
 
 
Oh, I get it -- prog just means "good," "above-average," or "interesting." Big smile
 
 
 
Now, objectively define those, in a musical context....Confused
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Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:14
^ the only problems of the prog-related category here are that a) the artists are not properly separated from the prog artists and b) the admins make arbitrary decisions about which bands to add and which not. Example: Iron Maiden get added for no apparent reason (there are as many people in favor of adding Black Sabbath or Judas Priest), and then people asking for similar bands to be added are turned down. Now Led Zeppelin were added and the Doors are refused ... people don't understand it, and why should they - it makes no sense.

That's why on my website I accept any band from any genre - and while browsing the website people can simply filter out non-prog bands or albums, if they're so inclined. 
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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:25
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ the only problems of the prog-related category here are that a) the artists are not properly separated from the prog artists and b) the admins make arbitrary decisions about which bands to add and which not. Example: Iron Maiden get added for no apparent reason (there are as many people in favor of adding Black Sabbath or Judas Priest), and then people asking for similar bands to be added are turned down. Now Led Zeppelin were added and the Doors are refused ... people don't understand it, and why should they - it makes no sense.

That's why on my website I accept any band from any genre - and while browsing the website people can simply filter out non-prog bands or albums, if they're so inclined. 
Yes, Mike. Clap
I believe that the minute you try to limit inclusion in a music site along sub-genre lines (prog is a subgenre of rock), then you are squarely headed into the realm of the subjective, and headed for controversy and confusion.
 
To then try to include what had previously been excluded, by coming up with new, imaginary "categories" (that all strangely include the "P" word!) is to deepen the confusion, artificiality and controversy, IMO.
 
Art resists such narrow categorization. Each listener is unique.
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:31
In fact Mike, "The admins" have made very few decisions to date.
 
Led Zeppelin was approved by M@x (the site owner). The Admin team's only decisions to date have been to admit Iron Maiden, and to reject My Dying Bride. Rainbow were approved by M@x and the Admin team together. And that's the lot.
 
We have not "refused" the Doors, no one has asked us. Same goes for JP and BS.
 
We don't admit "any band from any genre" on this site because it is dedicated to prog. The differences arise in people's perceptions of what prog is. For every one person who agrees with your implication that The Doors are equal to or above Led Zeppelin in terms of their prog (related) credentials, there will be someone else who thinks the opposite.
 
The admin team will simply endeavour to ensure that any proposed prog-related additions meet the criteria of the definition of that category. We readily acknowledge that such a judgement will be subjective, but at least a decision will be reached.
 
Another side benefit of the process will be that we can ensure if necessary that there is not an overload of prog-related bands being added around the same time.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2006 at 17:33
Who said I was stating my personal opinion? I was trying to help the admins maintain some sort of order in this thread. Wink
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