zappa. a genius or just a comedian?

Brave thread!

There are several members here to whom the very question would be akin to certain others reading "ELP - genius or overblown no-marks with an over-inflated sense of their own importance" or "Radiohead - they're not prog!"

Blacksword wrote: One minute he's playing the most brilliant rock/blues riff against a backdrop of intricate jazz, then in a split second there's screaming, whistles blowing and some anecdote about a hooker felating a republican..

Most of this emerges during the huge amount of live material Zappa released, especially during the latter years of his life; in the studio, he was a giant talent, but on stage, he often took the opportunity to adapt well known songs from his back catalogue to satirise current events (a particular example is the Jimmy Swaggart episodes in the late 1980's). While these are funny to listen to once or twice, you can find yourself thinking "Oh, just get on with it, Frank, you made your point".

That aside, though, his work with the Ensemble Moderne and Pierre Boulez cannot be under-estimated; widely considered to be modern classics. Add this to his huge influence on guitar players, and his habit of acting as a finishing school for many musicians (Vai, Belew, Wackerman, Jobson to name but a few), I'd have to come down on the side of Zappa as a musical genius - however, as with many such mavericks, the chaff content is there, but in my opinion, only about 5% of the time.

Edited by Jim Garten

A genius, no question about it. I agree that not all he did was fantastic, but his best work is just genius. You should not judge him when you have only heard apostrophe or another seventies album. Just listen to "Absolutely Free" or "Uncle Meat"... or some of his other avant-garde classical influenced stuff.

He is a genius and he had some very thought provoking things to say.....

oliverstoned wrote: Guitar genius at least!

yeah right, that's something that we cannot exclude...hating or loving his music!! 

To call Hot Rats, Apostrophe or Waka/Jawaka or any other Zappa classic "humour music" is just idiotic. Although Zappa had one hell of an imagination, his music sure aint just comedy. His lyrics often bring a smile on my face, but in the end, it really is the music that matters. Hardly anyone would listen to an artist, if it was all about humorous lyrics, especially when Zappa has dozens of albums many prog fans love.

Edited by Logos

BaldJean wrote: JrKASperov wrote: Genius. His band can play stuff hardly any other band can. That tells you something, that requires skill, and love for music, diehard love for music at that. When you put all of Zappa's stuff together, look at what he did, all you can do is be awed. I think he might be the person to have done the most musically of all times. Now that would still be Johann Sebastian Bach.

I support that!

 

Even when Zappa was at his most puerile, the musical backing was often extraordinarily sophisticated, and sometimes his humour and musical sophistication worked together well, especially on albums like Absolutely Free and We're Only In It for the Money. The word genius is over used, but when you take into account Zappa's talents as a composer, guitarist, arranger, improviser, social commentator and satirist I think it's appropriate for FZ. Unfortunately, his best known work is all too often his weakest (with the exception of the mighty Hot Rats). The key albums identified on this site show him at his best.

BaldJean wrote: JrKASperov wrote: Genius. His band can play stuff hardly any other band can. That tells you something, that requires skill, and love for music, diehard love for music at that. When you put all of Zappa's stuff together, look at what he did, all you can do is be awed. I think he might be the person to have done the most musically of all times. Now that would still be Johann Sebastian Bach.  The BWV (Bach Werke Verzeichnis, "Register of Bach's Works") lists 1126 entries.

Yes but was Bach as diverse? I don't think so

Both. He blends comedy and fantastic music perfectly, and although some of his work can get a little questionable, Over-Nite Sensation and Hot Rats are both masterpieces.

JrKASperov wrote: BaldJean wrote: JrKASperov wrote: Genius. His band can play stuff hardly any other band can. That tells you something, that requires skill, and love for music, diehard love for music at that. When you put all of Zappa's stuff together, look at what he did, all you can do is be awed. I think he might be the person to have done the most musically of all times. Now that would still be Johann Sebastian Bach.  The BWV (Bach Werke Verzeichnis, "Register of Bach's Works") lists 1126 entries. Yes but was Bach as diverse? I don't think so

At the time, yes - Bach was as diverse, if somewhat less satirical

But being able to play stuff that few others can is not an indication of anything apart from the ability to write or play complicated music - it doesn't say anything else. Yes, it is a skill, but it is not the be all and end all skill in music-making, it is just one skill. I personally do not find Bach's keyboard music particularly difficult to play - in fact, I tend to find his music very intuitive.

I think that Mozart was probably the most diverse composer ever - and for his time alive, had the greatest output of any single human being. He's the only composer I know of who, aged 14, went to the Sistine Chapel, heard a piece that had never been written down but passed on by memory only and, having heard it just one, wrote it down.

And his music can be very difficult to play for a variety of reasons.

Back on topic... Zappa was not far behind.