zappa. a genius or just a comedian?
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Topic: zappa. a genius or just a comedian?
Posted By: frippertronik
Subject: zappa. a genius or just a comedian?
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 21:41
is a good comedian, but his music... ------------- a plague of lighthouse keepers |
Replies:
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:10
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moments of brillian, but way to much chaff. ------------- 
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Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:17
| Ask me a month ago id say just a comedian. But I heard 'Hot Rats' and while not genius, its really great musically. |
Posted By: Astaroth
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:20
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Frank Zappa is GOD!!
seriuosly ... I think that his music is awesome, he's (was) just a geniuos ...but his music is very hard to diggest at the begining. ------------- "I need you more that you can know ... and if I hurt myself it's just for show" |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:23
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Genius ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Poxx
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:24
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He should definitely have kept his mouth shut more often. Its a shame that he put so much weight on vocals and lyrics, when he was such a master on the guitar. Although he did put it to good use with the 'Shut Up 'N Player Yer Guitar' series, 'Guitar', etc. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:29
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Being a comedian and being a genius are not mutually exclusive... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: MANTICORE
Date Posted: June 02 2005 at 22:37
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Wow.! for my Frank zappa is a musical genius by three things
1. - Music very advanced for its time (1966 Freak out its first album while The Beatles invention released his "REVOLVER" Zappa towards of hers with this great debut of Mothers of invention.
2.-musical genius, composed all its complex suites wise to read music, in addition to being a exelent it interprets of the guitar.
3. - Albunes removed to market at least 2 to the year.
Well and by all this I consider to the Master zappa a genius!   -------------  |
Posted By: Cinema
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 01:49
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I've never understood the whole Zappa thing. I view most of his music as
little more than novelty tunes. I know that'll rub folks the wrong way, but like I said, I just don't get Zappa ... and I've really tried to get it. 
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Posted By: Tommy
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 03:13
COMMEDIAN, well at least his music's a joke
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 03:21
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A brilliant musician, but I agree with NetsNJFan. Moments of brilliance, but a little too much 'chaf' I've heard Zappa tracks that blow me away, but an equal amount of material that just frustrates me. One minute he's playing the most brilliant rock/blues riff against a backdrop of intricate jazz, then in a split second there's screaming, whistles blowing and some anecdote about a hooker felating a republican..or something. It gets a little too much for me at times. He has so many albums, and I have heard probably a quarter of them. I like Hot Ratz and The Grand Wazoo. Of those I've heard, they are the best Zappa albums IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 03:28
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Comic genius? I must admit that I find some of his humour decidedly not funny at all, and some of the more extreme music to be completely unlistenable (and I've heard some way out stuff in my time BUT When Zappa gets it right, it can be unbelievably brilliant, bitingly satirical and just downright good stuff! My favourites of his are "We're Only In It For The Money" and "Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch". |
Posted By: radiognome3
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:02
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Genius. Period. ------------- Vive Gong! |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:04
Both 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:05
| Guitar genius at least! |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:07
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Zappa is even included in classically oriented music encyclopedias; that should tell you something. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:13
I'd say a 4:1 ratio ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
NetsNJFan wrote:Posted By: krauthead
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:42
He's mostly a comedian and i have 20 some albums with him, the music is great i just wish he was more serious and left all the jokes maybe even the lyrics, what a trip that would be  ------------- *Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:46
A genious AND a comedian.....there's no conflict between the two, quite the opposite, I would say 
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:50
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------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
very well said, too many people think one preculdes the other.Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 07:52
| From the limited material I've heard, I'd say he can show genius but doesn't always. However on the comedy side I've never heard anything that makes me laugh out loud. One day I'll look into his huge discography, it's just a little daunting at present. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 08:02
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Brave thread!
There are several members here to whom the very question would be akin to certain others reading "ELP - genius or overblown no-marks with an over-inflated sense of their own importance" or "Radiohead - they're not prog!" 
Most of this emerges during the huge amount of live material Zappa released, especially during the latter years of his life; in the studio, he was a giant talent, but on stage, he often took the opportunity to adapt well known songs from his back catalogue to satirise current events (a particular example is the Jimmy Swaggart episodes in the late 1980's). While these are funny to listen to once or twice, you can find yourself thinking "Oh, just get on with it, Frank, you made your point". That aside, though, his work with the Ensemble Moderne and Pierre Boulez cannot be under-estimated; widely considered to be modern classics. Add this to his huge influence on guitar players, and his habit of acting as a finishing school for many musicians (Vai, Belew, Wackerman, Jobson to name but a few), I'd have to come down on the side of Zappa as a musical genius - however, as with many such mavericks, the chaff content is there, but in my opinion, only about 5% of the time. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 08:03
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What was Charles Chaplin, a genius or just a comedian?
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Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 08:16
| A genius, no question about it. I agree that not all he did was fantastic, but his best work is just genius. You should not judge him when you have only heard apostrophe or another seventies album. Just listen to "Absolutely Free" or "Uncle Meat"... or some of his other avant-garde classical influenced stuff. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 08:19
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All the live footage I've seen of Zappa swings between brilliant musical performances, and aforemetioned comedic ramblings. I have the 'Baby Snakes' DVD which features a classic concert in New York 1979, with the Belew, Bozzio...line up. The music is fantastic, but my finger is ever ready on the fast forward button. I even sympathise with much of his politics, but when I buy a music product thats what I expect; music. Not a sermon, albeit quite an amusing one. Apart from Grand Wazoo, Hot Ratz, Sheik Yerbouti & Zoot Alore, can anyone reccomend some good Zappa albums which are musically consistent throughout?? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 08:41
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He is a genius and he had some very thought provoking things to say..... |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:06
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Genius. His band can play stuff hardly any other band can. That tells you something, that requires skill, and love for music, diehard love for music at that. When you put all of Zappa's stuff together, look at what he did, all you can do is be awed. I think he might be the person to have done the most musically of all times. ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:09
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yeah right, that's something that we cannot exclude...hating or loving his music!! |
Posted By: raindance
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:13
I don't think he's either. He's not funny & his music is just too way out there....very overrated IMHO
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:14
| To call Hot Rats, Apostrophe or Waka/Jawaka or any other Zappa classic "humour music" is just idiotic. Although Zappa had one hell of an imagination, his music sure aint just comedy. His lyrics often bring a smile on my face, but in the end, it really is the music that matters. Hardly anyone would listen to an artist, if it was all about humorous lyrics, especially when Zappa has dozens of albums many prog fans love. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:27
Now that would still be Johann Sebastian Bach. The BWV (Bach Werke Verzeichnis, "Register of Bach's Works") lists 1126 entries.-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 10:30
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I support that!
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 11:12
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The complete edition of Bach's works consists of 172 CDs. Available for $1199.98.
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 11:22
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Even when Zappa was at his most puerile, the musical backing was often extraordinarily sophisticated, and sometimes his humour and musical sophistication worked together well, especially on albums like Absolutely Free and We're Only In It for the Money. The word genius is over used, but when you take into account Zappa's talents as a composer, guitarist, arranger, improviser, social commentator and satirist I think it's appropriate for FZ. Unfortunately, his best known work is all too often his weakest (with the exception of the mighty Hot Rats). The key albums identified on this site show him at his best. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Alucard
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 11:34
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Genius or Comedian ? ... I don't care I love the man and his music. ------------- Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear "Hey there! Rotter's Club! Explain the meaning of this song and share it" |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 11:40
Yes but was Bach as diverse? I don't think so ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 11:41
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Or just 12 mp3 CDs at a crappy 128 mbps... I think Telemann's output was much bigger than that, but his work is not well classified and a great part of it has never been recorded. Anyway, maybe we should move to the classical section with this... Yep, Zappa was great!
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Posted By: con safo
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 13:53
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Both. He blends comedy and fantastic music perfectly, and although some of his work can get a little questionable, Over-Nite Sensation and Hot Rats are both masterpieces. ------------- 
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Posted By: raindance
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 13:54
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COMEDIAN, NOT A VERY GOOD ONE AT THAT
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:09
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At the time, yes - Bach was as diverse, if somewhat less satirical But being able to play stuff that few others can is not an indication of anything apart from the ability to write or play complicated music - it doesn't say anything else. Yes, it is a skill, but it is not the be all and end all skill in music-making, it is just one skill. I personally do not find Bach's keyboard music particularly difficult to play - in fact, I tend to find his music very intuitive. I think that Mozart was probably the most diverse composer ever - and for his time alive, had the greatest output of any single human being. He's the only composer I know of who, aged 14, went to the Sistine Chapel, heard a piece that had never been written down but passed on by memory only and, having heard it just one, wrote it down. And his music can be very difficult to play for a variety of reasons. Back on topic... Zappa was not far behind. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:15
Glenn Gould, arguably the most important Bach pianist of the last century, was of a different opinion, and so am I. ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:22
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He IS a musical genius. The problem is that he released so much stuff, that it takes a lot of time to listen through it and to find something that appeals to your taste. But if you like experimental music in general, you'll find plenty of stuff that makes his geniality obvious. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:27
But I'm not, so there |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:30
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I would recommend Roxy & Elsewhere to start with, because it is very tight, sound quality is awesome, and it also features great humour. If I had to choose ONE Zappa album, I'd choose this one. But I hope that I will never have to make such a decision ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 14:56
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He wasn't a comedian, he was a satirist! Learn the difference!! Oh yeah, and a musical genius too. |
Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 15:17
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: June 03 2005 at 19:56
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No mather if you like him or not one thing i think we can agree on is that he was very original, lest face it there have never been another Zappa and probobly never will be anyone like him ever again... And anyone who can put out 50+ albums in a life time and make most of em very good ones, surly have the right too be called genius. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 12:32
| Anyone who dismisses Zappa as a comedian is listening to the wrong albums. Listen to Hot Rats and the Grand Wazoo and START AGAIN. |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 12:40
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i would say genius; he was one of the most versatile musicians ever! the only thing i less like regarding Frank is some of his lengthy gross & improvised guitar solos: indeed, he seems to sometimes lack a bit some melody and structure in his solos. black napkins is excellent because he puts so much intensity & passion, packard goose too, but solos like on Marque-Son's Chicken (them or us) are a bit less convincing. oh, and IMO he has been stupid at least once in his lifetime, as reveals the many lame parts on the weasels ripped my flesh album. ------------- [HEADPINS - LINE OF FIRE: THE RECORD HAVING THE MOST POWERFUL GUITAR SOUND IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF MUSIC!> |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 12:49
He has been stupid many many times. I can't think of a single album of his that is wall-to-wall genius. |
Posted By: Richardw
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 13:06
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To anyone that thinks Zappa has no musical merit, I would say listen to the vinyl edition of 'Sleep Dirt' and then make up your mind. That album has some of the greatest music you will ever hear. If you don't like him that's your loss. He has made some of the most fantastic music EVER. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 13:31
| Zappa is my absolute favorite. Whether you like it or not, you can thank Zappa for the majority of the prog you hear. A melodic and composition genius, and one hell of a guitar player, and a true free-thinker. Thanks to Freak Out! bands weren't afraid to add discipline and other things that people thought would be embarassing before hand, like being weird, and orchestral instrumentation. I understand a lot of his music is hard to digest because Zappa really saw himself being a composer rather than a rock musician. That's why later in his career he moved to the Synclavier to write out his compositions. But damn when he played rock it was downright incredible. Roxy & Elsewhere to me, is the most technically accomplished band I have ever heard. And Zappa's composing around that time was incredible. Echidna's Arf anybody? Also, Zappa along with Miles Davis pretty much started Fusion. Too much things about the man to overlook. |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 15:12
Very funny (or sad, maybe), because I think "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" is one of the albums which display his genius THE BEST. From start to finish, "Weasels" is genius. And, yes, that includes the title track! If you think that the title track was a MISTAKE, or STUPID, then you DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT FRANK ZAPPA WAS TRYING TO ACHIEVE (and he succeeds). |
Posted By: undefinability
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 20:58
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Neither, if I had to be honest. His comedic material is more or less a joke. ------------- "Don't listen to me." |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 21:04
In that case he's a comedian! How about Genious comedian musician? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: undefinability
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 21:06
Yeah, I'll agree with that. :) ------------- "Don't listen to me." |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 21:15
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: undefinability
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 21:19
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Haha, I know. Now people can see what a real discussion is like, rather than, "If you like Dream Theater, you're gay!" ------------- "Don't listen to me." |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 21:23
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Well rather than jumping threads lets stay here...I'll start...Dream Theater suck the big one! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Lemming
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 23:00
| We're Only In It For The Money was a monumental work. One other note was that playing in his band was a huge plus on those musicians's resume'. It was treated like a diploma from MIT in the music world. He is an aquired taste, I will admit, and a lot of his material I don't care for, but what I like, I really like. |
Posted By: undefinability
Date Posted: June 04 2005 at 23:02
No, they don't, you're the one who sucks!!!!!1111 ------------- "Don't listen to me." |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 08:54
Zappas intelect was above us all, even mine.... |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 08:59
Zappa's intellect is still above yours ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 09:22
That's what I ment. Same to you |
Posted By: ita_prog_fan
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 09:24
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A GENIUS |
Posted By: Kubla Khan
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 10:48
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Genius & comedian!!
a very talented man. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 12:48
I guess you didn't understand I was joking! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: jorim
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 13:21
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Zappa is one of the musicans that used modern classical music influences like Busoni, Respighi and perhaps Boulez. His final attempt "Yellow sharks" are confirming his adherence to classical music patterns. He is a serious person for me. - What I like the most of Zappa is his ability to create musical theatre in his songs. Listen to: "Joe's Garage Part one". His wet t-shirt night is pure theatre without a real stage. It's radio. - His cruel sarcasm appeals to me in "Andy" and "Florentine pogan" (Album : "one size fits all", which I guess is his most contentive album) or his sexism in "Apostrophe" and "Joe's garage". - And then I like his musical abilities as a composer in tracks like "Inka roads" (One size..) His guitar solo on this track is outstanding. No one on earth would play it like this. It's like talking on a guitar. And all his co-musicians on nearly all his records are little geniusses as well: Eddi Jobson, Colajuta etc. Frank ZAPPA has made the musical field so much funnier and richer that we should thank him for that. His short live is a little bit sad. ------------- Nothing is easy |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 05 2005 at 16:15
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 03:11
Two from the early 1970s which always go well together and are consistent in their content and quality are "Overnite Sensation" and "One Size Fits All"; the humour is there, of course, but the arrangements are all top notch (especially with musicians such as Jean Luc Ponty, Ian Underwood, Napoleon Murphy Brock and George Duke involved). These are two definite 'must haves'. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |