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Tony R 
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 Posted: September 10 2006 at 15:54 |
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Erik provides an interesting and informative list of bands but ultimately through his small BIO's of each he suggests that these bands were not part of an ideosyncratic movement by comparing them to British Prog bands like Genesis,ELP,Jethro Tull et al.
To be genuinely different from these contemporary British bands,surely the only link would be how they interpreted shared influences....
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 16:21 |
OK, another final contribution, Tony  :
You are right that I mentioned lots of UK bands but it's the blend of UK influences, the lush musical tradition/history and the outstanding own musical ideas that made the Italian prog so special. I am a proghead for at about 30 years and I write progrock reviews since the early Nineties. In all those years I have heard thousands of progrock bands from hundreds of countries in the world, that's why I have written so many reviews for this site (at this moment more than 800). From this experience I would like to say that Italy is a very unique country if you take a look at the incredible high level: skills, emotion, compositions, creativity, expression, adventure, etc. I have respect for all the other countries like Brasil, Argentina, Germany and France but no other country (perhaps Spain comes close) delivers so many interesting bands at such a high level, from Il Balletto Di Bronzo and Osanna to Triade, The Trip and Stormy Six, it remains incredible how both prolific as high standard all those bands are. So in my opinion it's pure an emotional statement if people say that you shouldn't create sub-genres. In my opinion the progheads deserve to be pointed at very special progrock, that's why I have no problem to create sub-genres, I know how many progheads were and are pleased with the sub-genre Italian Prog, how many of them would have missed lots of great Italian Prog if there would not have been that sub-genre ...  So it's purely a matter of being clear and consumers-friendly to maintain sub-genres like Italian Prog and Krautrock (also a very special and unique sub-genre). Anyway, I am very glad that, since the 2,5 years I work for Prog Archives, I had the possiblitity to point at Italian Prog because then progheads could check out the sub-genre by looking at the bands list  |
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micky
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 16:52 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
hmmm... last
post from me on this subject before phase two of this debate.... as a
matter of fact will ask GR to close the thread... the debate here...is
pointless....
Micky, is it pointless because 74% of the people disagree with this proposition?
hahah... this is why...
an honest poster wrote:
if I had to choose between yes and no for this question, I would have said 'no'.
on the other hand, I have no big knowledge of the genre, its influences and its importance to prog
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how many of that 74% own more than 20 or 30 albums can be considered to
know the Italian movement yet weren't as honest as the unnamed poster
there and voted anyway...
this is pointless Ivan for several reasons 1) I was asked
to make a case for it... whether RPI happens or not... won't
depend on some poll voted on by people either with personal agendas or
those who just plain don't know what they are voting on. It will be
decided, as it should be, by the people that own, and run this
site and 2) we are debating on incomplete information anyway...
what's the point. As most pollls, people vote, say what they
voted for, and disappear like a fart in the wind. There is
nothing here TO debate. Though I'm quite sure you can wrangle up
something.. I'm looking to see RPI instituted.. and nothing said here..
is going to either help it or hurt it. Not untiil a case is made
for it.. then once it is... it will be decided upon. Simple as
that.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Joined: July 16 2004
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:20 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
OK, another final contribution, Tony [IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> :
You are right that I mentioned lots of UK bands but it's the blend of UK influences, the lush musical tradition/history and the outstanding own musical ideas that made the Italian prog so special. I am a proghead for at about 30 years and I write progrock reviews since the early Nineties. In all those years I have heard thousands of progrock bands from hundreds of countries in the world, that's why I have written so many reviews for this site (at this moment more than 800). From this experience I would like to say that Italy is a very unique country if you take a look at the incredible high level: skills, emotion, compositions, creativity, expression, adventure, etc. I have respect for all the other countries like Brasil, Argentina, Germany and France but no other country (perhaps Spain comes close) delivers so many interesting bands at such a high level, from Il Balletto Di Bronzo and Osanna to Triade, The Trip and Stormy Six, it remains incredible how both prolific as high standard all those bands are. So in my opinion it's pure an emotional statement if people say that you shouldn't create sub-genres. In my opinion the progheads deserve to be pointed at very special progrock, that's why I have no problem to create sub-genres, I know how many progheads were and are pleased with the sub-genre Italian Prog, how many of them would have missed lots of great Italian Prog if there would not have been that sub-genre ...[IMG]height=17 alt=Cry src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> So it's purely a matter of being clear and consumers-friendly to maintain sub-genres like Italian Prog and Krautrock (also a very special and unique sub-genre). Anyway, I am very glad that, since the 2,5 years I work for Prog Archives, I had the possiblitity to point at Italian Prog because then progheads could check out the sub-genre by looking at the bands list [IMG]height=17 alt="Thumbs Up" src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" width=23 align=absMiddle> |
Eric,your arguments are more emotional than intellectual.It is quite clear from the copious amounts you have written on this subject that these Italian bands were heavily influenced by the classic UK Prog Bands from the outset.
It is fair to suggest the Italian prog is a school of Symphonic Prog Rock but to suggest that it is an entity in itself is a step not bourne out by the evidence presented.If Italian bands sound slightly different then surely this is because the broad influences they shared with the UK Prog scene were localised ie if there was an influence from classical music surely the Italian bands would be naturally more influenced by the Italian composers whereas the UK bands would be influenced by Northern European composers? I'm not presenting this as fact but surely this is logical?
One can argue all one wants about how creating a seperate genre for these bands makes it easier for the uninitiated to discover them,but this is hardly scientific is it? If one were to apply this logic consistently then a case could easily be made that every "minor" Prog Rock producing country should also be allowed this distinction. Why do these Italian bands (wonderful as they surely are) deserve a helping hand yet the scores of Argentinian bands do not? Micky's argument that "if X then why not Y" does not apply here seems false for the same reasons that dismiss Eric's argument.If the issue is one of ease of access then my original argument that we can provide a link to search by country still stands as the most logical answer to Eric's dilemna.
SWITCH INDEX> countries
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micky
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:31 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:34 |
micky wrote:
hahah... this is why...
an honest poster wrote:
if I had to choose between yes and no for this question, I would have said 'no'.
on the other hand, I have no big knowledge of the genre, its influences and its importance to prog
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That's one person Micky, there are a lot more.
how many of that 74% own more than 20 or 30 albums can be considered to know the Italian movement yet weren't as honest as the unnamed poster there and voted anyway...
How many people voted yes because they saw it on GEPR or because they like the idea? This are questions that will never be answered because numbers are cold.
this is pointless Ivan for several reasons 1) I was asked to make a case for it... whether RPI happens or not... won't depend on some poll voted on by people either with personal agendas or those who just plain don't know what they are voting on. It will be decided, as it should be, by the people that own, and run this site and
Micky, what agendas? Nobody here gains or looses money with Italian Progressive or Italian Symphonic. The owners will decide that as we know, not the reviewers, Collaborators, SC or Administrators, but all members are allowed to vote and their vote counts the same despite anything.
Most of the people who voted are familiar and interested in the issue, if not they would have avoided.
If somebody asked if RIO should stay, I would not even vote because neither I'm familiar with the sub-genre neither I understand it.
I ask you as an honest man you are....If the votes would have been the opposite wouldn't you been claiming that members want Italian Prog and must be accepted?
Would you ask yo close the thread or keep it alive?
Nobody asked me to make a case against Italian Progressive, all I have expressed is my honest opinion as it's your's, nobody forced a member to vote, they all did it by own will.
2) we are debating on incomplete information anyway... what's the point. As most pollls, people vote, say what they voted for, and disappear like a fart in the wind. There is nothing here TO debate.
Yes there is something to debate the radical change of structure of this site from a sub-genre base to a national or regional base.
Though I'm quite sure you can wrangle up something.. I'm looking to see RPI instituted.. and nothing said here.. is going to either help it or hurt it. Not untiil a case is made for it.. then once it is... it will be decided upon. Simple as that.
I wish you luck, but again I will always express what I honestly believe.
Iván
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micky
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
hahah... this is why...
an honest poster wrote:
if I had to choose between yes and no for this question, I would have said 'no'.
on the other hand, I have no big knowledge of the genre, its influences and its importance to prog
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That's one person Micky, there are a lot more.
how many of that 74% own more than
20 or 30 albums can be considered to know the Italian movement yet
weren't as honest as the unnamed poster there and voted anyway...
How many
people voted yes because they saw it on GEPR or because they like the
idea? This are questions that will never be answered because numbers
are cold.
yes that is my whole point which you seem to
miss... the poll number ....worthless.. yet you cling to them like a
blanket. There were over 20 no votes before a valid case
for made for RPI was made here. come on Ivan.. .it's
worthless and you know it... unless you are a believer in the mob
mentality...which I'd be surprised if you did... it's just the numbers
are the basis of your objection.. thus ...highly valuable to you 
Majority votes have their purpose and their place... something new is
being proposed here... this is a discussion based question... not a gut
reaction.
this is pointless Ivan for several reasons 1)
I was asked to make a case for it... whether RPI happens
or not... won't depend on some poll voted on by people either with
personal agendas or those who just plain don't know what they are
voting on. It will be decided, as it should be, by the people
that own, and run this site and
Micky, what
agendas? Nobody here gains or looses money with Italian Progressive or
Italian Symphonic. The owners will decide that as we know, not the
reviewers, Collaborators, SC or Administrators, but all members are
allowed to vote and their vote counts the same despite anything.
Most of the people who voted are familiar and interested in the issue, if not they would have avoided.
If somebody
asked if RIO should stay, I would not even vote because neither I'm
familiar with the sub-genre neither I understand it.
I ask you as
an honest man you are....If the votes would have been the opposite
wouldn't you been claiming that members want Italian Prog and must be
accepted?
Would you ask yo close the thread or keep it alive?
Nobody asked
me to make a case against Italian Progressive, all I have expressed is
my honest opinion as it's your's, nobody forced a member to vote, they
all did it by own will.
hmmm..... good question.... see you don't
understand.... I never knew this poll was coming and had always
intended that this be decided where it should be... by the owners
and/or the admins... the result to me.... were
inconsequential and you know it.. are the people who run
this site going to base their decision based on this poll ...
HAH!!! I doubt that seriously.... this is a bit of a change.. and
requires some thought and consideration. That is why I am building
an.. academic basis ...for it's inclusion. After that....
it's out of my hands.. your hands.. and where it should be.... the
people that YOU and I both answer to.. the owners of the site.
2) we are debating on incomplete information
anyway... what's the point. As most pollls, people vote,
say what they voted for, and disappear like a fart in the wind.
There is nothing here TO debate.
Yes there is
something to debate the radical change of structure of this site from a
sub-genre base to a national or regional base.
Again.. why the poll results are meaningless..
this is the the people in the prog penthouse to decide and I'll do my
damnedest ... count on that... to make a clear consise and accurate
state of the Italina Progressive movement. After that.. it's up
to them...
Though I'm quite sure you can wrangle
up something.. I'm looking to see RPI instituted.. and nothing said
here.. is going to either help it or hurt it. Not untiil a case
is made for it.. then once it is... it will be decided upon.
Simple as that.
I wish you luck, but again I will always express what I honestly believe.
Iván
I'd expect no less from you.... but expect the same from me....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 18:01 |
micky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I wish you luck, but again I will always express what I honestly believe.
Iván |
I'd expect no less from you.... but expect the same from me....
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Thanks my old friend of many battles and I know you will enjoy the debates as much as I do, we have them since DDD days.
Iván
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micky
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:18 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I wish you luck, but again I will always express what I honestly believe.
Iván |
I'd expect no less from you.... but expect the same from me....
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Thanks my old friend of many battles and I know you will enjoy the debates as much as I do, we have them since DDD days.
Iván |
* emoticon for shaking hands then giving you a slap on the *ss *
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:29 |
micky wrote:
* emoticon for shaking hands then giving you a slap on the *ss *
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ROFLMAO you should refer to this one  , but I'm also training for the next round:
Iván
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micky
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:46 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
* emoticon for shaking hands then giving you a slap on the *ss *
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ROFLMAO you should refer to this one , but I'm also training for the next round:
Iván |
hahahha.. you seriously underestimate me.....
my training.... A bottle of Pinot Grigio and a push button....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
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Posted: September 10 2006 at 23:20 |
micky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
* emoticon for shaking hands then giving you a slap on the *ss * |
ROFLMAO you should refer to this one  , but I'm also training for the next round:
<p align="center">
Iván |
hahahha.. you seriously underestimate me.....
my training.... A bottle of Pinot Grigio and a push button....
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Oh come on Micky, go for the gusto. If you are going that big, it should be a Barolo, or Barbaresco.
Edited by bhikkhu - September 10 2006 at 23:21
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Mandrakeroot
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Joined: March 01 2006
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 04:07 |
No, because basically the Italian Symphonic Prog is a mix of The Nice/ ELP, Jethro Tull, Genesis and first King Crimson.
Other Prog genre played in Italy don't have the charateristics of an autonomous genre.
In general for 70's this is a genre. But today I consider Italian Symphonic Prog a sub sub genre of Symphonic Prog and other band... Jazz, Art Rock or other.
For this reason I voted no.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 05:52 |
I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:
over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that are not Italian.
If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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micky
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 05:56 |
Sean Trane wrote:
I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:
over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as
far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that
are not Italian.
If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main
influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise
since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog |
not ignored... just already considered I guess hahahha
Hugues.. this has been discussed already.. and if RPI happens if will be open to other non-Italian groups...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Rivertree
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 06:16 |
![LOL]() I would prefer the Swedish Symphonic Rock genre and to open it for non-Swedish groups!
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Tony R
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 10:34 |
Sean Trane wrote:
I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:
over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that are not Italian.
If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog |
Well done Hugues,all that proves is that you ignored my posts which referred to yours....
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andrea
Prog Reviewer
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Location: Italy
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 15:13 |
Though the following "link" is in Spanish, I think that the "subgenres" proposed could add something to this discussion...
Edited by andrea - September 11 2006 at 15:17
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Spiderprog
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 16:08 |
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I think this whole discussion should be about what will be better for music lovers to discover new bands and albums and supporting bands that would otherwise not be discovered.
To hell with what is right or wrong with providing some or all the information by country if it helps people discover Swedish or Spanish or Eskimo bands and promoting prog in these countries.
Giving Italian Prog its own category helped many, many people discover albums and bands they would never discover otherwise. In the same way giving categories for Swedish, Spanish, South American etc. will help the music of these countries to be exposed.
The main thing should be discovering and enjoying music. If a system helps doing just that and contradicts dome cold and dry theories about Prog Genres, so what?
Just think of how much more exposure French and Spanish bands, for example, will be able to receive if a 100 best albums list for these countries or a similar system will be added to this site.
The fact remains that even if theoretically speaking it's the right thing to do, most of the Italian bands (and some great masterpieces) will get close to zero exposure if Italian Progressive will be combined with Symphonic Progressive.
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eugene
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Posted: September 11 2006 at 17:22 |
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^^^Very sensible, Spiderprog! I agree.
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carefulwiththataxe
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre
