Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28334
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 11:38
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Topic: Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre
Posted By: Raff
Subject: Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 09:58
Well, call it a cheap shot at patriotic pride (something I've never really been good at), or just being influenced by some people's hard-to-ignore flashing sigs .... Anyway, I thought it was time to sound the opinions of the PA crowd as concerns the feasibility of moving all Italian prog bands to one specific subgenre of their own, called Italian Progressive Rock (you all know what the original Italian phrasing is by now... ). As a matter of fact, the original intention of the Symphonic Team, to which I have the honour of belonging, was to subject the whole section of Italian Symphonic Prog to a major overhaul in order to pick up non-symph bands, then include the remaining ones in the general Symphonic subgenre. Before anything like that happens, seen as this site seems to be full of Italian prog aficionados, as PA's only "Italian on top" I'd like to see what people here think of the idea... And no, I was NOT paid anything to start this poll... |
Replies:
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:19
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Well, Ghostrider, my problem with the current categorisation is that you have:
1) Italian progrock bands inspired by mainly Genesis, ELP, Gentle Giant like Le Orme, Banco, PFM, Museo Rosenbach, etc.
2) Italian progrock bands that sound very original like Osanna, Il Balletto Di Bronzo, New Trolls, etc.
So if you point at Italian symphonic rock as a typical movement, you should separate and re-name it as:
1) Italian Classic Symphonic Prog Inspired
2) Typical Italian Prog
I was paid by mailto:M@X - M@X to shut my mouth about this subject
 ... |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:20
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disclaimer: knowledge of italian bands and their music is practically nil, but i'm looking to rectify that. What is it about Italian prog bands, besides the fact that they are from Italy and sing in Italian (most of the time), that warrants separating them out from prog bands from the rest of the world? Should prog scenes in other countries get their own subgenre? If not, why not? |
Posted By: mccrank_yeahrig
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:24
| My opinion is that Italian Symphonic prog has to be classified as it is, because they have a particular style (although you don't like it, you have to admit it hehehe). I think it's the same that if we do it with Kraut Rock (which is German prog rock). |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:28
| Guys, just to point out one thing, I'm not referring to Italian Symphonic Prog, but to Italian Prog in general... Please, read my question and opening post again! |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:33
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mccrank_yeahrig wrote:Posted By: Spiderprog
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:36
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The fact that Italian Progressive rock has a separate sub
genre here helped me to listen to many new albums. I think the separation is
more for convenience than anything else as the vast majority of the Italian
stuff can be classified under one of the existing genres.
However, I suggested in another thread to create a system that allows people to
explore music from different countries. A 100 best albums by country system
could be awesome for exploring new stuff in the same way that it helps people
with listening to Italian Prog. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:38
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As has been stated quite elequently by Erik over the past few weeks,I think that the Italian Prog Bands which have been directly influenced by Classic Symphonic Prog and maintained those characteristics need to be in Symphonic Prog.
The big question is then to decide if the remaining "quintissential" Italian Prog Bands are sufficiently ideosyncratic to warrant a seperate genre. It is a reasonable and logical position to conclude "why Italy?" Then "If Italy,why not Hungary or Spain or France?" Why have this distinction? The current situation is unsatisfactory but to dismantle the genre now would be contentious. |
Posted By: mccrank_yeahrig
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:46
Ok, maybe I can't generalize, but I think that it's more or less that way. If you look in the PA database: Kraut Rock is full of german bands (there are only 5 or 6 bands that are not german), and Italian symph rock only with Italians. But, It's just my opinion |
Posted By: dagrush
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 11:03
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Sidenote: Not all German bands are Krautrock. For instance, Eloy and Grobschnitt aren't, despite that so many reviewers seem to think automatically that German = Krautrock. Anyway, to the main point. I don't think countries should get their own genres, but looking at the top albums by country would be a good idea. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/omgwtfdagrush/"> 
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Posted By: Andrea Cortese
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 11:22
That's the main argument to support that proposed new cathegory. I would be happy with it, honestly.
Nevertheless, consequentially, I cannot deny the (possibly many) problems with it:
1) various and so different stiles put together only because of the language or the origin of the bands? Area with Le Orme...it's hard to believe...
2) and then, the eadem ratio should be applied to the rest of the world. Each country should be permitted to have its own specific genre, as others members said before.
3) and so, why our specialist teams are now so hardly working to find and elaborate more accurate and precise definitions for each genre, if then we put them in the same indistinctive group where non-expert people will not be able to discern?
Question: could the two systems be integrated, being the italian symphonic and the italian jazz-rock/fusion a sub-sub-genre of the italian general prog?
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Posted By: MattiR
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 11:40
Il Balletto Di Bronzo is influenced by ELP, King Crimson, even Colosseum, however they created music in their own way 
For instance first album of Grobschnitt is pure Krautrock. Eloy also has Krautrock albums There is a necessity to maintain genre called "Italian Symphonic Prog" in the same way like so far. It's very hard to qualify in how many percents various Italian bands are influenced by great English bands. Non-symphonic Italian bands should be IMO classified to their proper genres, for example Area, Perigeo to jazz rock. Creating a new genre for all Italian bands called "Italian prog" isn't a good idea for me, though I love Italian bands. Btw - my friends from Poland (like me) are keen on various genres of prog. But some of them don't like/hate Italian bands (symphonic, jazz rock etc.). Why? Primarily they don't like/hate Italian language in music. They also find music of Italian bands too impassioned. Maybe is it an argument to create a new genre for all Italian bands? |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 12:47
Has anyone read the book below? There are so many experts here... Why Italian progressive rock and not Italian symphonic prog? For me is absolutely normal consider Italianprog as a subgenre while the subgenre "Italian symphonic prog" seems to me a little bit strange... Actually there are so many books and sites dedicated to Italianprog... but Italian symphonic... well, this is a definition that I found only in this site
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 13:15
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Well, just found this thread.
My opinion is that no genre or category should be based in national reasons, only in musical characteristics.
IMHO Symphonic is Symphonic in Italy, UK and Timbuktu.
The case in Prog Folk should beeven more radical, Symphonic bands of Italy, UK and USA have something in common, all are Symphonic and have a wide classical influence,
Folk from UK is mainly Celtic
Folk from Spain is mainly Flamenco or Andaluz
Folk from South America is mainly Andean
Folk from Africa is mainly tribal
But all are united under only one genre that is Prog Folk, why should Italian case be different?
Now, if we have Progresivo Italiano why not German Prog or USA Prog? We have a site based in genres with own and main characteristics, why change it all to a system based in nationality only for one country?
Just ask yourselves why not Swedish (Or Scandinavian Progressive if you think it's all a region) then we would place all the Prog Metal bands influenced in Viking Metal with Anglagard, Par Lind Project. Kalevala and The Flower Kings all in one sack?
I understand the love of all members for Italian Prog, but I'm convinced (Personal opinion) that sub-genres should only be based in musical characteristics or influences but not for nationality or regions.
My 2 cents.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Benjamin_Breeg
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 14:08
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I don't agree with that cause italian symphonic prog is symphonic prog why not have English symphonic prog genre too??? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Dream_Thief_/?chartstyle=Geldropdown2"> 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 14:25
I guess you'll have tyo pay him back, uh?
You guys know my opinion on this and if Italian prog remains I will ask mailto:M@X - M@X for Quebec Prog and Eskimo prog.  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 14:26
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I agree totally with what Ivan said, genres should not be split on country of origin, it would just cause chaos as there would be too many bands without anything in common that are lumped together.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 14:54
Well, I agree in some way... For instance Rhapsody are an Italian band and I don't think they belong to "Italianprog" subgenre only because they're Italians... But the Italianprog scene in the seventies was a strong movement tightly intertwined with the life of the the whole Country... Same festivals, same "management troubles", same social problems, same riots at the concerts... same political climate... In a word same influences that you can find in the music and in the lyrics... Perhaps, it'is a little bit hard to understand that issue listening only to the music, without paying attention to the strength of the lyrics... It's not a matter of Country... If there is a Canterbury style, every city of Britain should have his own prog subgenre?
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 15:06
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Mmmm...no. I'm mildly in favor of having Italian Symphonic Prog, as it does seem to be distinct in a way. It has, over the course of time, throughout referece, been set apart from other regions of Europe, USA and so forth, and it has become distinct and unique enought to warrant an abberation in our traditional way of categorizing bands, which is usually by sound and not geographic reason. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 16:15
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I'm going to have to vote no. It's like taking every american band and putting them in a subgenre called "American Progressive Rock". It has llittle to do with the similiarities in the bands but just the nationality.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 16:36
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Let me add this to the discussion: As a very prolific reviewer for this site (this is not meant arrogant but just as a fact), I have had many reactions (perhaps 100 PM's and e-mails) on my reviews about Spanish - and Italian progrock, progheads are grateful that I have pointed at bands as Triana, Museo Rosenbach, Mezquita and Cherry Five. For those progheads it's very consumer's friendly when they can check out the Italian - and Spanish progrock scene if these bands are categorized like Italian Classic Symphonic Rock or Typical Italian Prog or Prog Andaluz. For me it's this simple: it's nonsense to conclude that it will be too confusing or we have to add Greek Prog, Argentine Prog, etc. because we have to focus on what's good for the visiting progheads, the Italian and Spanish progrock are so distinctive that they deserve a special category, in my opinion.
P.s.: I will pay back mailto:M@X - M@X , Sean, don't worry but I cannot avoid these topics
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 16:47
hahahha wow.... well the battle is finally joined... great poll and interesting responces so far... I"m tied up at the minute but will definitely respond to the points raised in this.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 16:51
 damn right Erik... and great post.. and any of you who vote no.... read that ^ ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 17:48
Andrea Canterbury is a name of a Region where the genre was born but it's also a genre with it's own characteristic a mixture of Fusion, Psychedelia and a touch of folk.
You will see bands from Italy, England, Netherlands, France, Japan, USA and Belgium,Italian Prog will be formed only for Italian bands.
Will this Italian Canterbury band Picchio Dal Pozzo will also be moved from Canterbury to Italian Symphonic being THE ONLY AND UNIQUE EXPRESSION OF ITALIAN CANTERBURY?
Italian Symphonic would be just Symphonic bands from IItaly.
Italian Progressive will be a mixture of different specific genres but made in Italy.
It may be unique (And I respect what Micky and Erik have to say) but STILL my PERSONAL opinion is no.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 17:56
So lets ask MAX to install an easy-to-use "Search By Country" button and this will not be a problem anymore.
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:15
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agreed with Ivan and the idea of a search by country having never really been into Italian rock however, this site has helped me find new bands, Museo Rosenbach for one, that I would not have probably found otherwise ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:32
nice idea.... but with a two or three clicks of the mouse you have that already..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:37
and while I respect your opinion Ivan.... it does nothing to help the posters of this site.... and regardless of what your personal opinion is.... as SC that should be your primary concern .... the people that look to you and us for guidance to navigate the 1000's bands 100's of countries and countless 1000's of albums ... if it is unique... which you know it to be....and is a major subset of prog rock..which you also know it to be... .instantly identifiable as such.... then it should be included... there is no way around it. What is more important Ivan.. your opinion... or the welfare and cointiued ease of locating and exploring new groups. for those who have no clue about the weath of great bands from that movement. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:40
hahahha... and maybe if you can show that they were important in the grand scheme of things prog and an important stepping stone to non-english prog... M@X might do it ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:46
so the problem of finding these bands is perceived and not difficult in reality...? Either you have to dig deep into the database to discover these bands or you dont. If "three clicks" is proving a problem wouldnt a "one click" search option be a good idea? |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 18:50
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I voted NO because Italian Symphonic Prog belongs to the subgenre Symphonic Prog or Italian Progressive Rock belongs to the genre Progressive Rock! If you look at the official statement of PA about Italian Symphonic Prog http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#28 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#28 you can also take this for many other countries in the world and this would not be useful anyhow. Even the subgenre Krautrock is controversial because it contains german bands with different styles (Psychedelic/Spacerock, ProgFolk, Jazzrock/Fusion etc.). the option Search By Country is another point of view and already existing ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 19:46
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Well, regarding the Krautrock genre, much of it is unique. If Krautrock wasn't it's own catagory, where would Can go? Where would NEU! go? Krautrock is a style of its self, while Italian symphonic is just symphinic prog that happens to be made in Italy.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 19:51
Micky, the last thing I want to is discuss with a teammate and friend, but before anything I value my honest and sincere opinion.
I believe it's in the best interest of this site plus the visitors and members to identify bands by genres that gather bands with similar influences, sounds, styles and characteristics.
Italian Prog is important, but IMHO not more than:
All this nations and/or regions are unique, if we have one, we should have all, it's not a matter of numbers but how unique they are. If we follow this line of thinking, all this countries and regions should be here, but our site is catalogued in base of Sub-Genres as most important Prog sites. People who like Classical influenced bands will go to Symphonic and find not only Italian, but bands from all around the world, if they like Jazz music they will go to Fusion or even People who like early forms of Prog will go to Proto Prog and so on with other genres.
I honestly believe this system is much helpful than searching for a country and finding Symphonic, Canterbury, Neo Prog, Proto Prog, Psychedelia, Avant Garde and RIO all mixed up.
There's nothing I would like more than have a perfect Multimedia program that would allow to make several organization systems, but we don't, this site is based in 13 genres for bands with specific characteristics that make them different from others, and four wide ones (Art Rock for bands hard to categorize and of course Prog Related for semi-Prog bands and Various genres for compilations and Tributes mostly).
I don't forget Italian Symphonic but again I believe it's Symphonic despite the country from where the band is.
This is my honest opinion of what I belive is better for the site, visitors and members, I may be wrong or I may be right but I can't agree with something I don't believe in.
Iván
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 20:23
In my opinion you have to declare all the subgenres of Progressive Rock as global/international subjects! Of course there are existing categories/styles like Italian Symphonic Rock, Krautrock or others which have a relationship to a special country - but they cannot be a subgenre! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: aybara
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 20:27
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I remember that some while ago there was another discussion about how to categorize bands in general (not only Italian bands). One suggestion was that it should be possible to place the same band in different categories. In that way it would be possible to sort bands both after nationality and music genre - and even after different music genres if that is necessary. Since the nationality of each band on this site is already in the system, I can't see why a solution like this is not possible. Also, even though I don't have any skills in web scripting, I believe that it would not be very hard to make a search engine that could sort bands after more than one criteria, i.e. symphonic and Italian. If this is not a possible solution, I wish that the Italian Symphonic Prog genre is kept, simply because I have found great help in discovering new music in it. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 21:13
edit - hahah tried to lost it a second time.. this time I copied it before I sent it... damn computer... lost a lost post... don't you hate that when it happens hahahha try it again.... that would great Tony.... if looking for a band from Latvia or Albania.... The point I have always made here... and will take to my PA's grave is this is about spotlighting a particular and rather insular prog movement. To my recollections and to date not one person has actually come up with a reason why it shouldn't... other than BS roundabut answers as to then all would deserve it... oh horsesh*t
There were only two progressive movement that exceed or even touch the
vibarant. and STILL ongoing progressive moverment that exists in Italy.
The English and the German. The English don't need there own.. . if
you've been here at PA's for longer than 10 minutes... you know the
answer why.. and the Germans have their own and rightly so. If someone
thinks that other countries should have them... great.. they should be
debated on their own merits.. and everyone...cut the crap about 'if X
then Y'... we don't do it for bands.... or sub-genres either... if the
Canadian scene... hahahha... . deserves one..then someone will step
forward and explain why... ssimple as that.The point NONE of you all can deny... is the fact that 100's even 1000's of posters have been exposed to Italian prog because of it's own page with spotlighted albums... .fold those albums into the vast depths of symphonic and art-rock... and they'd go from being held up as the classics that they are.... to being obscure albums covered by every damn album Genesis and about 10 other English Americans groups ever made. The most important point though is... how many of those 100's or 1000's who got into Italian prog because of the current layout.. then later explored other areas of the world... . Another point ....this on the symphonic issue.... from one who has spent hours and hours listening to songs, albums, samples from groups all over the world... who exactly determines what is symphonic or not.... a group of 3 or 4 people.... as we know... and you all know... these groups did not just crank out symphonic album after symphonic album.... they evolved changed... to spotlight these groups based on the movement they sprang out of is the best way to categoize them... espeically the Italian groups.. that is why I want RPI... take Osanna for example.. .where would you put them.... symphonic... PR ... art rock.. who knows.. .you just described their first 3 albums.... I'm done for now..I've got housework to finsh
The posters of this site are who we as Admins and SC's in reality..
serve.. if you think that folding all these great groups into the vast
wasteland of bloated sub's is a good thing and serves them ... you are
out of your frickin minds.... I'm OUT hahhaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 22:21
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When you think of it at the first time, italian prog seems quite reasonable sub genre. But as someone wrote, there are some bands with influences from genesis,yes,elp etc and others that have their own sound. Would be chaos if you have Banco, New trolls and Il balletto di bronzo at the same category.
So, my opinion is that everybody who likes (or not) prog bands from Italy can call them italian prog referring to their common strong classical influence. ------------- 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 22:34
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I understand what all of my esteemed colleagues are saying, and it's hard to fight the urge to flip flop. I am one of the people who discovered this wonderful music by having it in an easily accessible place. I just can't help but agree with the fact that nationality should not warrant a sub-genre. I tend to look for similar influences. If you start with Genesis, that could lead you to Yes, then to Eloy, on to Le Orme, and end up with Wobbler. It doesn't matter where they come from. The discovery of new symphonic music has been made. I am in favor of some kind of cross referencing system. Notations can be made in bios, and there could be a way to link to their contemporaries. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 03:45
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Wow, this thread moves like a Seventies symphonic rock composition !
If Prog Archives had started without sub-genres like Italian Symphonic Prog, it would have been way more difficult to search for all those delicate Italian bands. And if I had not pointed at the existence of a flamenco element in Spanish prog with my biographies/reviews/specials, it would have been way more difficult for progheads to discover that vivid Andalusian scene on Prog Archives, for example my thread about Prog Andaluz was extended to more than 20 pages because of enthousiastic visiting progheads who had never heard of it! Prog Archives doesn't deliver that very important information so progheads like me have to do their best to give additional information. My conclusion: if I take a look at all the reactions on the reviews about Italian - and Spanish prog (my precious Prog Andaluz) from the visiting progheads, it's obvious that there is a huge need for using special subgenres for the very special prog from Italy
 and Spain .... ! .......... (and of course Eskimo Prog, Sean
) |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 06:35
hahahha..... why fight it.... you have the urge to flip-flop because you know I am right
HT ...It DOES matter where they came from....in particular this
case.... there is such a apparent folk element in RPI in addition plus
....I can't really put my finger on it... but have seen it written that
there is something ...extra.. that the Italians brought to prog that
just isn't apparent from their influences... and as far as those
influences.... sure ....possibly to start they were... but they soon
moved far past them... look at ELP -> Le Orme for example and
through the festival circuits ... the tours ...these groups knew each
other...shared members quite regularly hahahh... and were a seperate
movement of their own... the english helped provide a spark.... but
that's it... anyone who thinks that these Italian groups were clones of
their English contemoraries really should listen a bit closer to the
albums. As far as a cross referencing system... nice idea again... but for most other than a select few.. this site if fun... and a place to meet, discuss and recommend... my way involves a simple name change and plucking some groups like De De Lind out from the obscurity from where they presently lie.... a considered top 10 RPI album.. that sits in Art-Rock.... obscure beyond belief. With a minimum of admin and SC effort... you have streamlined the system... who wants to slave over completely trashing... what has no reason to be trashed and has served all of us so well. Change just for the sake of change is absolute rubbish. With a name change here or there.. and maybe a new sub or two... in much less time... you have an even better system.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 08:24
YES! ------------- 
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 09:23
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[( Originally posted bu Ivan Melgar M )
Will this Italian Canterbury band Picchio Dal Pozzo will also be moved from Canterbury to Italian Symphonic being THE ONLY AND UNIQUE EXPRESSION OF ITALIAN CANTERBURY?
Yes, of course... like Delirium, Area, Arti & Mestieri, De De Lind and many others...
But this is not exctly my opionion... It's not me that invented Italian progressive subgenre... But I think that ignoring it could be misleading...
Have a look to the following links... Music distributors that heve Italianprog as a subgenre...
http://www.nannucci.it/ - http://www.nannucci.it/
http://www.topten.it/index.php?sez=CD&sub=quicksearch&campo=Genere&args=progressivo+italiano - http://www.topten.it/index.php?sez=CD&sub=quicksearch&campo=Genere&args=progressivo+italiano
And have a look to the following link... The list of artists... the list of books... And to the other sites "linked"...
http://www.italianprog.it/ - http://www.italianprog.it/
You can uderstand Italian, so try this other one...
http://www.sezionemusica.it/discografie/gruppi%20progressivi/storia%20prog%20italiano.htm - http://www.sezionemusica.it/discografie/gruppi%20progressivi/storia%20prog%20italiano.htm
I could go on and on...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 10:19
Andrea please, don't try to sell us this story, you're quoting:
http://www.nannucci.it/ - http://www.nannucci.it/ : Nannuci is an Italian store that sells Italian albums and it's even in Italian "Vendita di CD, DVD e VHS per corrispondenza" (Selling of CD and DVD by mail"
http://www.topten.it/index.php?sez=CD&sub=quicksearch&campo=Genere&args=progressivo+italiano - http://www.topten.it/index.php?sez=CD&sub=quicksearch&campo=Genere&args=progressivo+italiano :Top Ten is also a Store that sells Italian Music for Italians and in Italian.
http://www.italianprog.it/ - http://www.italianprog.it/ . This a site IN ITALIA AND WITH THE ITALIAN FLAG, dedicated to the story of Italian 70's Prog Rock of the 70's
http://www.sezionemusica.it/discografie/gruppi%20progressivi/storia%20prog%20italiano.htm - http://www.sezionemusica.it/discografie/gruppi%20progressivi/storia%20prog%20italiano.htm : This site is also in Italian and says "BREVE CRONACA DEL ROCK PROGRESSIVO ITALIANO" (Short Cronicle of Italia Progressive Roick)
None of this is a site of Progressive Rick, the first two sites are stores from Italy and for Italian public, writen in Italian deduicated to sell Propgressive Rock that comes from Italy.
The Second two sites are sites from Italy and for Italian public, writen in Italian deducated to talk about Progressive Rock that comes from Italy.
Andrea, this is not a description of a genre, this sites are trying to sell CD's and to talk about Italian Prog for Italian public.
The reference to Italoian Prog is merely DESCRIPTIVE they are not talking about a genre, they are just describing Progressive Rock that comes from Italy.
I also found:
I even had a booklet called Historia del Rock Progresivo Peruano and there's a site called INCA ROCK but neither they talk about genres called Peruviabn Progressive Rock or Inka Ropgressive Rock, just decribing Prog Rock that comes from Perú. So please Andrea, you're an intelligent person, you know that this sites are talking about Progressive Rock from Italy, not necessarilly about a genre called Italian Progressive Rock .
The site that talks about Italian Progressive is GEPR,
But they also talk about genres called :
And honestly, I believe nobody wants this in Prog Archives.
Iván
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 11:47
And honestly, I believe nobody wants this in Prog Archives.
Iván. are you sure that on this site nobady wants to know why In Italy there were so many bands playing prog? Why there were so many "one-shot bands"? Well, I'm not a story seller and I like this site because I can find here opinions different from mine...
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:10
Where is your problem - Andrea? Why should italian progressive rock be a special case in the discussion about genres/subgenres? With no doubt there are many visitors who want to have informations about italian bands. They can have! Nobody wants to delete them! But I don't know any reason for a special italian subgenre ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:20
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OK, just for accuracy's sake: - from a linguistic point of view, there isn't that much difference between 'from Italy' and 'Italian' - I would even go so far as to say there is none; - Italianprog.it (or .com, for the English version) is a very thorough website on Italian prog in the Seventies. That said, it includes bands and artists that have a very distant relationship with prog, but this is because in that decade the phenomenon was so widespread and all-pervasive that it touched most sectors of popular (i.e. not classical) music; - the rather artificial subgenres used by GEPR or ProgGnosis are not comparable in any way with having a dedicated Italian Progressive Rock section - as a native Italian who was there in the early Seventies, I can attest to the extreme importance of the phenomenon at the time, and to the way it has remained ingrained in Italian musical culture to this day. Moreover, there is also a question of sheer numbers... Apart from Krautrock, there is no other country that has the sheer number of bands that Italy can boast of. Then, of course ,there are the folk influences that Micky mentioned in one of his posts - influences which can be traced back to different regions of Italy, and are as such very diverse and worth investigating (Osanna being a prime example of this). I'm posting this because I see both sides of the argument, and not necessarily because I want to support one point of view over the other - and, of course, because I have been an eyewitness of the whole phenomenon, and as such I feel qualified to speak. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:37
mailto:M@X - M@X is quebecois (so is Ron) and even him refgrains from patriotism on his own site.
Anyway, Raf and Micky!!!
Sorry but YOU LOSE.
I must say I hired your "boss" to champion my cause against his own team  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:43
hahahha... Hugues.. I have the facts and common sense on my side... all that is on my 'bosses" (term loosely used of course) side is a bunch of bluster, personal opinion based on god knows what, and a bunch of people who vote ...without looking and considering waht they voted for.... for the record ...there were over 20 no votes before I ever started making a case as to why it should. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:45
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Hugues, I am Italian, Micky is not, as far as I know... So you can't really say he's patriotic ! As to winning or losing, I was just trying to sound opinions, not to push a point... I expressed my way of thinking in the previous post, where I stressed that I don't necessarily endorse Micky's opinion 100% - only that, knowing the Italian situation firsthand, I feel qualified to talk about the uniqueness of the Italian prog phenomenon in comparison to other countries. Perhaps I'm not as good as Ivan at getting my point across, but at least I have tried... |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:46
My problem? It's not me that started this thread... Just wanted to express an opinion, though different from yours...
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:47
Don't worry, Raff. No one's as good as Ivan. We'll always lose.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:47
Hang on Raf.
1- Krautrock is a clear definitive style >> not a national selection. German "prog" bands are disseminated throughout almost every genre of prog. And I suppose that there is some non-German bands in Krautrock (I've not checked this before writing it down)
2- I wish I could say the same for Italian bands >> 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the band that are not Italian. If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog
You know I hate to disagree with you
Your LL
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:54
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:58
| Andrea, that could be a good subject for the Blog, so that the issue may become a bit clearer to all Forum members! |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:08
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The winners of this thread are all those progheads who have discovered Italian prog thanks to the special categorisation of Italian Prog, I am very glad that Prog Archives once made 'that mistake' , so I hope for more 'mistakes' like Prog Andaluz .
By the way, Ghostrider, you could be a great politician
! |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:08
| Yes Raffaella,, I was thinking to write something, but that takes a lot of time... There are many books and you can get many informations in internet (interviews, retrospectives...) but only in Italian... to elaborate this stuff and translate it... what a hard work! |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:50
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Actually, there is no reason to get heated about this. There is no doubt we love our Rock Progressivo Italiano. We just have to decide where it fits in. Raffaella started this poll in order to get more input. All opinions should be welcome, and are valid (that's just my two cents anyway). ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 14:23
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Pweehww.. wath a thread this is. I don't know a lot about Italian prog, but it looks like this whole thread comes down to the following statements and their resulting conclusion. 1. (sub)Genres should be based on musical, or rather artistic distinctions in style (artistic rather than musical in order to make sure vocals and lyrics - which are often influenced a lot by culture - are included) 2. In some cases, musical and artistic distinctions are bound to a specific area or country, or originate there. 3. Some people are interested in music, or prog, from specific countries and looking for information through this site. Based on these two statements and the input provided in this thread, I would conclude that a. A lot of what is now in Italian prog should actually be in the Symphonic prog genre b. The remainder of Italian prog should be in a separate genre (see statement 2), but may have influenced among others Argentinian prog bands, so the name Italian Prog could be misleading if those bands are added. Look for a better name I'd say. c. PA should provide an easy way to find bands based on country. Could M@X cover this and other query specifics in an 'advanced search'? Just my 2 euro cents Angelo (my name's Italian, my roots are Belgian and my nationality is Dutch, and my taste in music is 'legion and global') ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 15:08
Well done. We are of like mind. The problem can be solved by being able to easily link to the list of Italian Symphonic bands (or any such grouping, where applicable). If these distinctions are covered in the artists' bios, there should be no confusion.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 17:29
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I want to make some statements because it seems that my points of view and words are being misunderstood by both sides of the matter in debate:
1.- I said:
Andrea, I was not talking aboput Italian Progressive, I know some people wants it, the fact that Micky a teammate and a friend is the member with an honest interest in it, is enough for me to consider the option.
If you read that phrase it's after the description of Dutch Euro Rock, Early British Progressive, Euro Rock, French Theatric Symphonic, Gentle Giant Influenced, Oldfield Progressive and Zappa Music.
It's clear I was saying nobody in Prog Archive want this silly sub genres, I believe I was clear about it.
2.- Andrea wrote:
No Andrea, Italianprog is an Italian site translated to English, not a site written by English people, after the name of te site you can clearly read ".it" this dot it means the home site is in Italy.
As a fact, the owner and webmaster of Italian Prog site is Augusto Croce from Perugia
3.- Sean wrote AS A JOKE:
You know Micky this is a joke Sean is a good friend of us all, he has collaborated with us every time he could, but you know that since the first day we started to woirk in the Symphonic team until yesterday talking with Raffaella i clearly stated that in the team there were no bosses, each of us hads one vote and only one vote my only priviledge (That have never used because we always have agreed) is that in case of deadlock tied in a determined decision I have an extra vote.
Raffaella is an Administrator, a well deserved position and a hard work she has accepted and I'm sure she doesn't consider herself or me bosses of nobody.
3.- For the record, Raffaellla said:
I'm a wittnes that Raffaella has no patriotoic feeling in this case, in the work inside the team she has always voted infavour of uniting Italian Symphonic with Symphonic. About Italian Prog, I believe she's still deciding and valuse arguments from both sides. She was, is and will always be an honest woman who votes only for things in which she believes.
I can understand her dillema of feeling in the middle of a debate where two team mates have oposite positions (Something I believe is healthy becaus4e we can't agree always and what a better place tro debate than a discussion forum) she has clearly stated her doubts about this issue and tried to remain neutral, I honestly respect this that clearly proveswhat an honest person she is
4.- My position, is as always my honest belief, I don't believe in regional divisions on a site based in musically defined sub-genres and to be honest, I absolutely believe in the Sub-Genres, maybe one more or one less than we have, but I think it's pretty accurate to reunite bands from all world with similar characteristics all together.
I thbnk this is the way for people not only to know Italian and Adaluz but also Greek, French, Dutch, Swedish, Finland, Norwegian, German, Argemntiean and even the modest Peruvian Prog.
All nations in the same level, not one over the others, Ghana with their lonely Prog band OSIBISA deserves as much recognition as any other country, I don't think this is a matter of numbers or main influence because in that case BRITISH PROG should be the peak of the genres and honestly I don't care for that.
5.- I will continue voting and defending a sub-genres categorization based in the musical atributes of the bands, not against Micky, Andrea or Raffaella, but in favour of what I honestly believe is better fot Prog Archives, our members and visitors.
6.- Just a s a note, this was talked by Raffaella, HT (Bhikkhu) ad me in a private chat that I will take the freedom to reveal and I'm sure Raf and HT wont get mad.
I do believe in the importance 0of Italian Symphonic and yesterday said to them that my idea was to create categories based in schools and that Italian Symphonic woulfd be one of then but inside Symphonic because Italian Symphonic IMHO is part of the whole Symphonic sub-genre.
How will we do this? I don't know but we aleways find a way to do it.
Thank you for your patience, you all will see that when this thread is 4ended Micky, Raffaella, HT and myself will return to work in Symphonic as the team mates and friends we are.
Iván
EDIT: About the Krautrock issue, most bands are from Germany it0's true, but it's an own genre that includes bands from other countries and continents, here is the list.
Krautrock bands/artists list
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 17:57
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The argument for RPI still seems to be one of facilitating discovery of Italian bands mixed with a vague sense that Italian Prog has some indefinable quality that makes it different.
Can we raise the bar,and ask for researched or contemporary anecdotal discussion containing factual support for the genre,something that nails this beyond pure opinion and wishful-thinking? If we are going to support RPI or Italian prog 100% then some bands must surely go into other genres and as Sean Trane quite logically states,wouldnt non-Italian bands qualify for this genre,in much the same way that the Krautrock and Canterbury genres operate? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 18:04
Good point Tony and as a fact I believe there's an Italian School mainly inside Symphonic, Argentinean Prog (Hey most Argentineans are Italian descendants) is strongly influenced by Italian School.
But schools or influences should be mentioned inside each genre, we plan to mention some schools or currents of Symphonic Prog in our definition later, like the Classic Symphonic (Mostly the pioneers), Italian School, Scandinavian School (Mainly in the 90's), French School, etc.
But as an integral part of Symphonic, not as independent sub-genres.
Again, we don't yet know how we will do it, but Raffaella, Ht I believe even Micky and myself have already spoken about this posibility in previous ocasions.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 20:51
ahh Tony your wisdom is equaled by your smartassery... something I still strive for... hahaha a group is being formed to serve that exact purpose... give us some time.. we do have personal lives and work... and we'll deliver the goods for you and the rest of the admins... I also couldn't agree more and is a given that other 'primary' RPI influened groups from other groups will be included in it. Good points. The thread served a nice purpose of seeing how is with us.. and who is against us
and the numbers... pfff.. this poll I certain is no
different than any others that the vast majority.. vote... and
then read through posts... this for you... the admins to
decide you all run the site.. we just do the work and make your
decisions easier Good post Tony.. and I'm off to see if I can piece together my modem... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: moonlapse
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 21:59
I voted yes. A quote from Peter Hamill from the liner notes of Pawn Hearts would seem to back up what GR is saying: "Our music was kind of operatic and dramatic and it chimed with the Italian soul and chimed with the scene in Italy at the time. In the early 70's Italy was going through many changes and a whole new country was emerging. We had been adopted by some people in the country as being part of this new social movement." |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 22:07
damn... good thing I have opened up in that album in months... or I be pissed for not thinking of adding that first Nice word from one who ....hahahha.. would know a thing or two about the Italian scene.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 05:46
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Yes, Micky, you can discuss it endless or write huge statements but this is indeed what it is really all about:
"Our music was kind of operatic and dramatic and it chimed with the Italian soul and chimed with the scene in Italy at the time. In the early 70's Italy was going through many changes and a whole new country was emerging. We had been adopted by some people in the country as being part of this new social movement."
Nothing can beat these words
!!!!!! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 12:19
GFor God's sake Moonlapse, Peter GHammill and Genesis were survibing in the early 70's only because of Italy and about his quote...well it could also had said:
"Our music was kind of operatic and dramatic and it chimed with the PORTUGUESE soul and chimed with the scene in PORTUGAL at the time. In the early 70's PORTUGAL was going through many changes and a whole new country was emerging. We had been adopted by some people in the country as being part of this new social movement."
Portugak has also a soul and a Prog scene ignored by most people here and in the 70's was going through a lot of changes plus accepted Prog Rock.
But that quote could also have said:
"Our music was kind of operatic and dramatic and it chimed with the Peruvian soul and chimed with the scene in Perú at the time. In the early 70's Perú was going through many changes and a whole new country was emerging. We had been adopted by some people in the country as being part of this new social movement."
In the early 70's Perú was going through a revoilution that tried to ban Prog Rock, has a clear and obvious sould and ethnic sound that blends perfectly with Prog and a lot opf People embraced Prog having lots of good bans.
The phrase aodf Peter Hammill says nothing except he likes Italian Prog, they were accepted in the 70's and they have a special soul
Something that can be said about a lot of countries.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 12:29
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Ivan, sorry to have to contradict you, but I'd like to remind you that I was there at the time, and what Peter Hammill says in that booklet (which I also have) is 100% true. There is no way to compare the situation of Portugal in the early '70s with that of Italy. Anyway, this is only for the sake of historical correctness. As I said very clearly in my introductory post, I am not taking sides, but rather collecting information. As a matter of fact, I didn't even vote in the poll, in order to be as impartial as possible. However, having been an eyewitness, I am in a position to say that the Italian musical scene in that period was indeed quite unique - even though this is a simple, factual statement, and not an endorsement of one or the other point of view. |
Posted By: moonlapse
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 12:38
Genesis? Exactly the point. Why not other countries? You say "it could be said this or could be said that"...well, no, it couldn't. Because, like you say, they survived only because of Italy. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 13:01
Italy had a special love for Progressive Rock, nobody can deny this, I wouldn't even try.
But this phrase only describes what happened in Italy, there was a social movement in most Europe and Latin America, Prog was embraced by most of the world.
Raffaella says the truth, it happened in Italy, but the same social movement was happening in Spain, Portugal and most Latin America,
Argentina had a incredible number of Prog bands in the 70's
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Rock Argentino en los '70s |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Abuelo & Nada - Abuelo & Nada |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rep_contraluz.htm - Contraluz | http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Montes - Montes |
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http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Agnus - Agnus |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Cuero - Cuero |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Montesano - Montesano |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Alas - Alas |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/entrevista_marrone.htm - Crucis |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/nebbia.htm - Nebbia, Litto |
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http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Almendra - Almendra |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Díaz, Kubero - Díaz, Kubero |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#La Pesada - La Pesada |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Alma y Vida - Alma y Vida |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Ensamble Musical Buenos Aires - Ensamble Musical Buenos Aires |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Pescado Rabioso - Pescado Rabioso |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Aquelarre - Aquelarre |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/entrevista_espiritu.htm - Espíritu |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Piel de Pueblo - Piel de Pueblo |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/a_arco_iris.htm - Arco Iris |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Claudio Gabis - Gabis, Claudio |
Pinchevsky, Jorge |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Aucan - Aucan |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Haerle, Rodolfo - Haerle, Rodolfo |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Porchetto, Raúl - Porchetto, Raúl |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Ave Rock - Ave Rock |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Horizonte - Horizonte |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Rayuela - Rayuela |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Los Barrocos - Los Barrocos |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Invisible - Invisible |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/ReUnion.htm - Redd |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#La Banda del Paraiso - La Banda del Paraíso |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#La Cofradía de la Flor Solar - La Cofradía de la Flor Solar |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Relax - Relax |
| http://www.progresiva70s.com/entrevista_blostein.htm - Bubu |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#La Maquina De Hacer Pájaros - La Máquina de Hacer Pájaros |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Rockal y la Cría - Rockal y la Cría |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Búsqueda - Búsqueda |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Lebón, David - Lebón, David |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Sacramento - Sacramento |
| http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Carola - Carola |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/nebbia.htm - Los Gatos |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Síntesis - Síntesis |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Cavallo Vapor - Caballo Vapor |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Manal - Manal |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Soluna - Soluna |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Miguel Cantilo y Grupo Sur - Miguel Cantilo y Grupo Sur |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Materia Gris - Materia Gris |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Spinetta, Luis Alberto - Spinetta, Luis Alberto |
|
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Color Humano - Color Humano |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#MIA - M.I.A. |
http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Sui Generis - Sui Generis |
| http://www.progresiva70s.com/rock_argentino.htm#Medina, Alejandro - Medina, Alejandro | http://www.progresiva70s.com/vox_dei.htm - vox_dei.htm |
Each band with their special sound and soul but it was too far away from Europe so England never noticed or cared and if you notived this list doesn't include iconic bands as El Reloj, Seru Giran or Pablo el Enterrador (Even when the last two are from the late 70's)
The end of Vietnam war, the Watergate case, are examples of the social movement in USA, Kansas added Hard Rock and Country music to Prog that's........adding their soul and ethnic identity.
But at the end it doesn't matter, Peter Hammill loved Italian Prog, I do also, but I also love French, Dutch, Argentinean and Portugal Prog.
Even Greece had a special Social movement and Aphrodite's Child is from there, 666 has to be one of the first Conceptual non Rock Opera album ever.
Peter Hammill loved Italian Prog, that's great, but this doesn't mean they are the only country in the world with a Prog scene so special that deserve being the only one in the world that has their own sub-genre, at least not IMHO.
Iván
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 13:03
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 13:27
-------------
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 13:57
| Ivan, I'm not going to keep on contradict you in this thread... You're a sesitive reviewer and you know South America prog scene... So, please, try to write a "blog" about it... Let us know what are the most important bands... What bands supported Sendero Luminoso or Tupamaros (if there were at all)? What was the influence of Latin America folklore in SA prog scene? How reacted the political establishment to progrock? How strong was the censorship in the different countries and how did it work? What are the subject of the lyrics? What are the common points to all this bands?... I think that this could be helpful for the site... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:04
hmmm... last post from me on this subject before phase two of this debate.... as a matter of fact will ask GR to close the thread... the debate here...is pointless.... Ivan.... what are are doing is the cyber equivalent of jumping up and down and crying it's not fair... the question... on it's own merits.. does RPI merit being it's own sub-genre.. your posts ..when they actually deal with the subject at hand... support our claim.. what you insist upon is dragging every other nation that had prog groups.. and some that might have even had a central movement into this thread. That is immaterial to the question at hand. Does Italy merit .... yes or no.... I will show it does having assembled over 40 websites with info to back me already. That will take time to go through obviously.... as far as the others.. that is for others to show... and not of concern at all for this question. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:13
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Before this thread turnes into total confusion, I would like to post my final contribution here, a bit in the spirit of the last pages
: (GLI) ALLUMINOGENI Scolopendra - Here's an often overlooked gem from the Italian Seventies prog! The seven compositions on this debut album are a very dynamic and alternating blend of Sixties, blues, rock and classic featuring excellent work on the Hammond organ and also great Italian vocals and raw electric guitar. The one moment you are carried away by bombastic a church organ sound, the other there is a bluesy electric guitar or pleasant and warm Sixties atmosphere, very exciting! ALPHATAURUS Alphataurus - Alphataurus evokes very pleasant memories becaue this is such a captivating album. Most of the tracks are long featuring great work on guitar and keyboards (mainly Hammond and Moog), the vocals (with a theatrical undertone) are strong and the rhythm-section sounds powerful and dynamic. Enjoy this wonderful blend of rock, blues, symphonic and psychedelia with hints from ELP and Uriah Heep. APOTEOSI - Apoteosi - This is a fine one-shot Italian progrock band from the Seventies. The five tracks sound melodic and alternating, the female vocals are wonderful. In the mellow pieces you hear a lot of strings, piano and flute, this often gives the music strong classical overtones. The more up-tempo interludes contain a strong harmony between the keyboards and guitar, the solowork is also very worth listening, the guitar has some psychedelic hints. This album has many beautiful moments, thanks to the subtle and inventive approach from these good musicians. (IL) BALLETTO DI BRONZO-Ys - In my opinion this is one of the most original Italian progrock albums from the Seventies but I'm sure that the music will not be everybody's cup of tea because of the complexity and variety of styles: a bombastic intro featuring a choir, psychedelic organ, ominous vocals, raw guitarplay, celestial Mellotron, propulsive drums, lots of surprising musical ideas, many accellarations and shifting moods and the style varies from jazzrock or avant-garde to symphonic or classical. If you are up to a stunning musical progrock adventure, this one is yours! BANCO DEL MUTUO SOCCORSO - Seguendo Le Tracce - This live-CD from 1975 by the Italian progrock legend BANCO showcases the band at their artistic pinnacle. Their sound is based upon the magnificent, omnipresent duo- keyboardplay (organ, synthesizers, acoustic and electric piano, strings) by the Nocenzi brothers and the powerful voice from Francesco Di Giacomo, loaded with pathos. The tracking-list is great featuring R.I.P. (beautiful interlude delivering moving piano, vocals and acoustic guitar), LAlberto Del Pane (splendid varied keyboards), La danza dei gandi Rettilli (a swinging blend of symphonic, blues and jazz), Passagio, Non mi rompete (pleasant acoustic guitarplay), Dopo
niente e piu lo stesso (wonderful sumptuous keyboards and great vocals), Traccia II (fine acoustic pianoplay along trumpet and synthesizer) and an extended version (at about 26 minutes) of Metamorfosi (including a long and virtuosic piano solo and lots of exciting keyboards and shifting moods). If you do not own records from BANCO, this one is a perfect start. I have a lot of records from BANCO in my collection but this will be my favorite! BIGLIETTO PER L'INFERNO - Live 1974 - Biglietto Per L'Inferno is an interesting progrock band from the early Seventies featuring members who play a wide range of instruments: flute, flugelhorn, Gemorgan, Minimoog, Hammond organ, piano and acoustic and electric guitars along drums and bass. As you would expect the music from Biglietto Per LInferno (Italian for Ticket To Hell) is varied and contains many shifting moods. The first song consists of a brass section, organ runs and fiery electric guitar. The other five tracks has echoes from Jethro Tull including cheerful rhythms, mellow organ and lots of flute play. The Italian vocals sound inspired. The recording quality is like a good bootleg and the compositions has more the structure of a jam. If you like Jehtro Tull and the early Italian progrock, this CD is recommended. CELESTE Principe Di Un Giorno - This album from 1976 is a very wonderful one but dont expect the usual exciting keyboard excertions, complex breaks or unexpected shifting moods. No, the music on the seven elaborate compositions sound quite mellow and laidback with some Medieval and jazzy influences and fine work on acoustic guitars, flute, saxophone and often a Mellotron sound that evokes the great days of early King Crimson! CHERRY FIVE-Cherry Five - Cherry Five included three musicians who later founded Goblin.The music on Cherry Fives eponymous album from 75 is very YES-oriented but the keyboards sound more virtuosic than bands like DRUID, ENGLAND or MIRTHRANDIR. The album is a real treat for all progrock lovers: strong and fluent compositions, very melodic and flowing with many good ideas. The emphasis is on the keyboards (Hammond organ and vintage synthesizers), especially the Tronmaniacs will be delighted! This is one of the gems of Italian progrock from the Seventies, a bit overlooked due to the attention for PFM, Le Orme, Banco and Goblin. (I) DIK DIK-Suite Per Una Donna Assolutamente Relativa - This is the only progressive album I Dik Dik (the name is derived from an African gazelle) made but it is an acclaimed one by the progrock aficionados and progheads. The 11 compositions sound melodic and alternating, from folky to bombastic prog. Although every musician plays very well the focus is on the magnificent keyboard play: sparkling piano, swinging clavinet, sensational synthesizer flights, strong organ floods and majestic Mellotron eruptions. If you like the wonderful sound of the Sixties (warm vocals, acoustic guitars, organ) blended with the progressive sound from the early Seventies (The Moody Blues, The Strawbs), this is a cd to check out!! FORMULA 3 - Sognando e Risognando - This third album is my favorite one, mainly because it has the most symphonic rock climates of all four records. The Hammond organ is omnipresent, it often evokes Keith Emerson but also Deep Purple, due to the fiery electric guitarplay. The music is compelling and contains some propulsive accellarations featuring organ and electric guitar. At some moments Formula Tre goes back to the atmosphere of their two albums with a more psychedelic attitude (sweeping drums and ominous keyboards). GOBLIN - Il Fantastico Viaggio Del Bagarozzo Mark - I've never been a fan from Goblin but I appreciate this album very much because of its pure symphonic rock sound. It contains for the first time vocals and the sound is great. The eight compositions feature strong and beautiful interplay between a fiery and flowing electric guitar and sumptuous keyboards (lots of organ and some flashy synthesizers) with echoes from a certain Keith Emerson. Some songs are different and even contain rock and roll elements. Many progheads consider this album as the best Goblin ever produced. JACULA - Anno Demoni - This is one of the weirdest Italian progrock albums from the Seventies. The prime mover is Antonio Bartoccetti (guitar, bass, vocals), his almost hallucinating compositions are based upon seances and the cooperation of a medium! Female singer Fiamma Dello Spirito (also flute and violin) sounds like a nice witch, keyboardplayer acts like the alter ego of Christopher Lee with his chilling church organ sound and medium Franz Parthenzy seems to come straight from hell. If you like horror and progrock and you want to sublimate some satanic urges, this CD could be a deadly serious experience! LATTE E MIELE - Aquile E Scoiattoli - Latte E Miele is an acclaimed Italian band from the Seventies. On their first two albums we can enjoy cascades of shifting moods, breaks, accellarations and the climates changes from classical overtones to ELP-like keyboard work or even heavy metal. This third album is the most accessible one, I trace echoes from the early Genesis (especially the keyboards). The long and impressive composition "Pavane" (almost 25 minutes) reminds me of The Enid, Sky and Craft. If you prefer more complex and adventurous prog, I prefer the first two albums to start with but if you like more melodic prog, this is one to discover. LOCANDA DELLE FATE - Forse Le Lucciole Non Si Amano Piů - In the other reveiws I read a lot of references but in my opinion Genesis is the most significant, especially Banks-like organplay and Hackett-like guitarwork, even the flute reminds me of Peter Gabriel. The music is drenched in the symphonic rock tradition from the Seventies, delivering very melodic and beautiful songs but the atmosphere is often very mellow. No doubt, this is very good Italian progrock but to me it sounds a bit too subdued. MUSEO ROSENBACH - Zarathustra - This album had such euphoric reviews that I decided to order it in the early Nineties. Well, very soon I was mesmerized by the splendid title track, a 20 minute killer composition with echoes from GENESIS and KING CRIMSON. The foundation of this wonderful and moving song is a beautiful theme (like Firth Of Fifth from GENESIS) that returns in different climates (from dreamy to heavy and bombastic) and with different colouring of the instruments. The interplay between the electric guitar, keyboards (Hammond organ, synthesizer and piano), rhythm- section (propulsive and perfectly timed drumming) and strong and expressive Italian vocals is very captivating. It all creates a constant tension, topped by majestic eruptions of the Mellotron. These moments gives the title track the same compelling impact as it does on the early albums from KING CRIMSON, goose bumps all over my body! The other three (shorter) tracks sound flowing and powerful with a lot of Hammond organ and guitar play with echoes from Steve HACKETT. For me this CD is the absolute highlight of the lush and varied Italian prog rock scene in the Seventies. A MUST! NEW TROLLS - Searching For A Land - This Italian progrock band has made a lot of albums, my favorite is this 2-LP (released on a 1-CD), what an exciting music! The tracks are very alternating: Bowie-like vocals in "Searching", warm twanging acoustic guitar in "Giga", splendid Mellotron waves in "In St. Peter's day", beautiful classical inspired pianoplay in "Once that I preayed" and raw and heavy rock with hints from Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple in "To Edith" (powerful Hammond and fiery electric guitar) and and "Lying here" (Ian Gillan-like vocals). Only few albums sounds so varied and captivating, this one deserve more attention! NUOVA IDEA - Clowns - This is Nuova Idea their final effort, to me it sounds as their best one. The line-up has been changed, the music delivers a raw organ -and guitarsound that only has a few mellow moments. The vocals are powerful but sometimes a bit too screamy. The tiltetrack is the most cativating and alternating composition. Due to some experimental ideas (featuring brass instruments) Nuova Idea is not always a band with an accesible approach. Nonetheless, this is one of the better releases from the Italian progrock label Mellow records. ORME, LE - Collage - After two psychedelic/Sixties inspired albums this third record was a true progrock gem. The 7 compositions features great Hammond organ play (Keith Emerson, early Jane and Ramses), very distinctive and warm vocals (with a melancholical undertone), some acoustic guitar and a dynamic rhythm-section. A very good element in the music from Le Orme is the tension between the mellow and bombastic climates. And Le Orme delivers a lot of musical surprises like a kind of Blackmore/Gillan-Page/Plant duel from the bass and Hammond organ in "Cemiento armato", wonderful Hammond organ work (from psychedelic to church organ) in "Evasione totale" and exciting interplay between organ and drums in "Era inverno". This album is not as refined like "Felona e sorona", "Uomo di pezza" or "Contapuntti" but it is very worth listening. ORME, LE - Felona e Sorona - During the Seventies Le ORME turned from a very ELP inspired band into a more refined prog rock formation with a distinctive sound. The concept-album Felona E Sorona is their acclaimed magnum opus featuring nine alternating and elaborated compositions with lush and varied keyboards (piano, organ, synthesizers and string-ensemble), wonderful changing climates and a strong and dynamic rhythm-section. The final part is one of the most compelling grand finales Ive ever heard: slow and fat Moog runs, repetitive organ chords, a powerful drumbeat, again slow and fat Moog sounds, then a propulsive rhythm- section, culminating in a very moving sumptuous climated featuring dazzling Moog flights and great string-sounds, what a mind blowing experience. This is the amazing Italians Seventies prog rock at its best! LE ORME-Live Orme - If I take a look at the Italian section of my progrock collection, its a battle between PFM and Le Orme to be honoured as my favorite band. I tend to choose (early) Le Orme because of their splendid compositorial qualities, their huge musical skills, their great dynamics and their perfect blend of technical and emotional elements. In the mid-Nineties I traced this 2-live-CD (at the level of a good bootleg) in the catalogue of Musea, the known French progrock label/mail-order service. Eventually it turned out to be both one of my most expensive orders (almost US $ 45,-) as one of my most precious Italian progrock documents because Live Orme contains great renditions of all the classics like Contrappunti, Maggio, Gioco di bimba, Era inverno, Truck of fire, Cementi armato, Collage and the surprising (but unfortunaltely short) covers from Led Zeppelin (Whole lotta love) and Jethro Tull (Aqualung). Im delighted about the wonderful changing atmospheres, from warm and melancholic (featuring the great, very distinctive Italians vocals and pleasant acoustic guitar) to compelling and bombastic in the vein of The Nice and ELP, what a stunning keyboardplay delivering lots of exciting Hammond organ and a dynamic rhytm-section. PANNA FREDDA - Uno - This is an Italian one-shot band that made only one album entitled "Uno". You don't need an Italian dictionary to understand that this means 'one' but to my surprise Panna Fredda showcases two faces on their album! The first and final part features swelling and moving organ play and raw guitar work, to me it sounds a bit like early Eloy. It all sounds very sumptuous, mainly due to the heavy Hammond organ chords. But halfway this album Panna Fredda changes their sound to very mellow featuring acoustic guitar, sensitive vocals and medieval-like keyboards, wonderful. An unique album! PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI (PFM) - Storia Di Un Minuto - The debut album Storia di un minuto has strong echoes from early King Crimson, especially the feminine side. In general the seven compositions (all around the 5 minutes) contain beautiful and mellow climates featuring lots of acoustic guitar, soaring keyboards and warm vocals, interfered by bombastic Mellotron drenched eruptions and fat synthesizers. At other moments you can hear shifting moods with fiery electric guitar and swinging rhythms. The highlight is the track Dove-Quando Part Two delivering a great variety and a wide range of instruments, from flute, piano and violin to organ and electric guitar. It's only 34 minutes but i prefer quality above quantity, this is a classic album so I continue the five star party!! PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI (PFM) - Per Un Amico - On the second album Per un amico PFM has even matured their sound: wonderful symphonic rock featuring acoustic instruments like the piano, violin, acoustic guitar and flute along electrified instruments like the Mellotron and the Minimoog synthesizer. The climates are more frequently changing including up-tempo rhyhtms with electric guitar or a surprising church-organ intermezzo. The songs are very melodic and harmonic and the vocals are powerful and expressive. Another classic and again five stars!! PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI (PFM) - Photos Of Ghosts - On their third album we read that Pete Sinfield from King Crimson produced this record and also delivered the lyrics, not really a coincidence if you listen to the main influence for PFM! All songs sound strong and lush and are tasteful elaborated, it sounds as a pleasant mix of folk, classical and symphonic. The violinplay is excellent! A great song is the long Il barchetto, it contains lots of majestic Mellotron and sparkling classical piano work. I agree with the reviewers who wished that this album was sung in their native and more expressive language, so one star less than a masterpiece!! PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI (PFM) - L'isola di niente - On the fourth album Lisola di niente (the English version is entitled The world became the world) I trace again an obvious influence from early King Crimson, and again the feminine side in the vein of tracks like Epitaph and In the court of the crimson king featuring bombastic Mellotron and Moogs along folky parts with acoustic instruments. Another influence is from Yes: powerful and propulsive bass guitar and guitars and keyboards with echoes from Howe and Wakeman. And some climates even contain jazzrock-like music, so theres a lot of varied styles on this album. Although at some moments my attention slips away, this album has many strong songs, especially the compelling mellotron-drenched titletrack, goose bumps!! PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI - P.F.M. Live in U.S.A. (aka Cook) - This CD is a registration of a concert from 1974 while touring in the USA, to me its a perfect compilation of their best work and showcases the band at its pinnacle. PFM starts with Four Holes In The Ground: a propulsive rhythm and a catchy melody, delivering fat Minimoog synthesizer runs, some fiery electric guitar and impressive Hammond organ and majestic Mellotron waves in the mellow interludes. The English vocals sound warm and the interplay between the skillfull musicians is great. Next is Dove ... Quando with a classical/jazzy intro on the Fender Rhodes electric piano, turning into a duet from sparkling piano and beautiful Italian vocals. Just Look Away has a splendid acoustic guitar intro (featuring elements like tremolo and sensational rhythm guitar), followed by twanging acoustic guitar, soft Minimoog flights and warm English vocals. The build-up is great with Hammond and flute and a closing section with again tremolo guitar. The crowd-pleaser Celebration is a cheerful and catchy composition, delivering spectacular Minimoog runs and swirling interplay. The grand finale includes the moving final part of The World Became The World, enjoy the Mellotron floods! Then Mr. Nine Till Five, a track with PFM at their best with the distinctive interplay between flute, Moog and violin. The final song Alta Loma Five Till Nine includes a long and bluesy guitar solo with a strong build-up, supported by violin- Mellotron, featuring howling and biting licks, superb! The second part has a moving violin soli, culminating in a version of Rossinis piece William Tell Overture with virtuosic play on the Moog synthesizer and violin, what a way to say goodbey. This is my favorite PFM CD! QUELLA VECCHIA LOCANDA - Quella Vecchia Locanda - The debut-album belongs to the top of the acclaimed Italian progrock from the Seventies, it contains eight beautiful and original compositions. They are a bit short but it's such a splendid blend of folk, classical and symphonic. The music is build around the magnificent (inter)play from the sparkling piano, compelling violin and cheerful flute but some guitarplay (acoustic and electric) adds a pleasant dimension to the very warm atmosphere on this album. Simply wonderful!! ROVESCIO DELLA MEDAGLIA (RDM), IL - Contaminazione - The third album from RDM is their best, it features lots of Keith Emerson inspired Hammond organ play. Along with the propulsive an dynamic rhythm-section, it evokes also TRACE and EKSEPTION (featuring Dutch pride Rick van der Linden). The instrumentation is very varied including violin, harpsichord, heavy guitar, a violin-section, piano, classical guitar and church organ. At some moments the music sounds a bit freaky or experimental but in general this is wonderful melodic Seventies based progrock. The Italian vocals are beautiful and have a warm sound. By the way, this album is a kind of tribute to Mr. JS BACH, especially the composition Toccata in D-Fuga. RUSTICHELLI & BORDINI - Opera Prima - Rustichelli & Bordini was a duo who made this wonderful album that turned out to be their swan song. The cover picture is very original: a nude and bald heavy weight man who tenderly holds a baby in his arms. To me this is a metaphor for the music, ranging from warm and tender with soaring violin-Mellotron and classical inspired piano to powerful and swinging with lots of Hammond. The interplay between the keyboards (Hammond, Mellotron, classical orchestrations, piano and synthesizers) is wonderful and the rhythm-section sounds great along emotional vocals in some parts. SALIS-DOPO - The name of this Italian progrock band is derived from the two Salis brothers, Francesco and Antonio. The music on their fourth album from 1979 sounds like dynamic symphonic jazzrock and reminds me of the splendid Spanish band Mezquita, its also based upon captivating interplay between fiery and powerful guitar and vintage keyboards, including a Steinway Grand piano, Fender Rhodes electric piano, organ, Minimoog, ARP string-ensemble. The level of the musicians is very high, we can enjoy strong soli on guitar and keyboards an dmany captivating moments: exciting shifting moods and virtuosic piano play in the titletrack, excellent guitarwork in the vein of Jan Akkerman (Focus) in Peccato Che .. !, a Spanish climate featuring strong vocals, howling electric guitar and orchestral keyboards in El diablo and swirling Fender Rhodes piano and fiery electric guitar in Inquinamento. SEMIRAMIS - Dedicato a Frazz - Semiramis made only one album, what a pity because this Italian band sounded so strong and promising. The album contains pleasant and melodic compositions featuring a lot of strings and fiery electric guitarplay. The parts with twanging acoustic guitars and mellow keyboards has obvious echoes from early Genesis. Highlights are some spectacular breaks delivering organ and propulsive guitar riffs, a flashy synthesizer solo and swelling keyboards, followed by a church-organ-guitar. This emphasizes how original Semiramis sounded, this album is one of the most acclaimed Italian progrock gems from the Seventies, discover why! SENSITIVA IMMAGINE - E Tutto Comincio Cosi - Almost every inch of this CD (transferred from 1976 tapes) has the spirit of the early GENESIS, only the Italian vocals let you realise that this album is not a kind of lost Selling England By The Pound tapes! Even a live picture on the inside of this digipack (I own the Japanese Melos label version) looks like the early GENESIS. The six compositions (the Musea re-release has three bonus tracks) sound pleasant and melodic featuring warm vocals, great sensitive electric guitar work and lush keyboards. They dont have the elaborate compositional skills of the other famous GENESIS-inspired band NEUSCHWANSTEIN but Im sure SENSITIVA IMMAGINE will not be a disappointment if you want to enjoy the 70-77 GENESIS-era. TRIADE - La Storia di Sabazio - This is an obscure Italian trio that made only one album. Their music is keyboard driven progrock with strongs hints from the classical music and ELP (organ and synthesizers). The combination of the bombastic keyboards and the acoustic guitar sounds very pelasant. The pieces featuring strings and rhythm-guitar are really breathtaking. The running time is just over half an hour but here you can say: quality above quantity!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:18
Andrea, I'm not the one trying to prove that there's a need for Argentinean, South American or Latin American Progressive.
If you haven't heard Traffic Sound or Laghonia you can't know how advanced was Psychedelic scene in Perú. Laghonia sounded like Jethro Tull actually before Jethro Tull, you can ask Raffaella, she heard some samples I showed her.
If you haven't heard Pablo el Enterrador, Bubu, Sui Generis or El Reloj you can't know how incredible was the early Symphonic Movement in Argentina
You can ask Guigo how eclectic was the Prog scenario in Brazil.
Los Jaivas had to leave Chile because they would have been dissapeared by Pinochet.
Petrus Castrus and a lot of Prog bands in Portugal were banned by the Government because they were not politically correct.
But IMHO this doesn't say anything against the unique sound of Latin American Prog in each of those countries.
Here in the modest Perú in the mid 70's we had to go to theaters to watch videos of Prog bands because nobody vuisited us being that our country was not profitable and the Military Government tried to ban Rock as a bad influence, but still we had a Prog movement, hundreeds first and thousands later gathered to watch Frágil play Watcher of the Skies with Andrés Duluide dressed as Peter Gabriel and later they released despite all this problems one opf the best Symphonic albums I ever heard called Avenida Larco.
To deny every country expresses their own identity in their music is to ignore reality, some bands express political rebelion others pain and sadness produced by millions starvin, Argentina is a country with a rich poetic scene and that was reflected in their music, Brazil is a blend of races and cultures and that is also expressed in their music.
Iván
BTW: Sendero Luminoso or Shinning Path is a movement from the 80's that reached their peak around 1985 and MRTA was founded in 1984, so there's no relation with the Prog of the 70's. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:27
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Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:34
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First of all:
Ivan for President!! , seriously hardly anyone can compete with your arguments
if I had to choose between yes and no for this question, I would have said 'no'. on the other hand, I have no big knowledge of the genre, its influences and its importance to prog I suggest, a team of people who are familiar with Italian prog, sit around together and make a decision, depending on the genre's IMPORTANCE and UNIQUENESS (if there is one) if the genre actually has some strong separate characteristics from the others, then it should be regarded as separate and why has It. Symph. Prog been included at the first place? this is food for thought... |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 14:49
Well, I admit my ignorance on SA prog... I'm not proposing a new subgenre, but a blog would help me to learn something about it... Music can express the feelings of a generation, of a people, of a country... Probably a blog would help also the discussion about "Italian Prog"... Without it seems almost pointless...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 15:34
Thank you Andrea, that's my whole point.
" Music can express the feelings of a generation, of a people, of a country" and as a fact does, every country is unique, each band added something of their own ethnic reality, suffering, politics, folk, etc.
So if we add one, we would have to add all, and honestly I'm not trying to do that, Latin American Prog should not exist either in a site based in musical genres despite how unique it may be.
That's all and I love Italian Prog but I have strong convictions.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 15:54
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Erik provides an interesting and informative list of bands but ultimately through his small BIO's of each he suggests that these bands were not part of an ideosyncratic movement by comparing them to British Prog bands like Genesis,ELP,Jethro Tull et al.
To be genuinely different from these contemporary British bands,surely the only link would be how they interpreted shared influences.... |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 16:21
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OK, another final contribution, Tony :
You are right that I mentioned lots of UK bands but it's the blend of UK influences, the lush musical tradition/history and the outstanding own musical ideas that made the Italian prog so special. I am a proghead for at about 30 years and I write progrock reviews since the early Nineties. In all those years I have heard thousands of progrock bands from hundreds of countries in the world, that's why I have written so many reviews for this site (at this moment more than 800). From this experience I would like to say that Italy is a very unique country if you take a look at the incredible high level: skills, emotion, compositions, creativity, expression, adventure, etc. I have respect for all the other countries like Brasil, Argentina, Germany and France but no other country (perhaps Spain comes close) delivers so many interesting bands at such a high level, from Il Balletto Di Bronzo and Osanna to Triade, The Trip and Stormy Six, it remains incredible how both prolific as high standard all those bands are. So in my opinion it's pure an emotional statement if people say that you shouldn't create sub-genres. In my opinion the progheads deserve to be pointed at very special progrock, that's why I have no problem to create sub-genres, I know how many progheads were and are pleased with the sub-genre Italian Prog, how many of them would have missed lots of great Italian Prog if there would not have been that sub-genre ...
 So it's purely a matter of being clear and consumers-friendly to maintain sub-genres like Italian Prog and Krautrock (also a very special and unique sub-genre). Anyway, I am very glad that, since the 2,5 years I work for Prog Archives, I had the possiblitity to point at Italian Prog because then progheads could check out the sub-genre by looking at the bands list |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 16:52
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:20
Eric,your arguments are more emotional than intellectual.It is quite clear from the copious amounts you have written on this subject that these Italian bands were heavily influenced by the classic UK Prog Bands from the outset. It is fair to suggest the Italian prog is a school of Symphonic Prog Rock but to suggest that it is an entity in itself is a step not bourne out by the evidence presented.If Italian bands sound slightly different then surely this is because the broad influences they shared with the UK Prog scene were localised ie if there was an influence from classical music surely the Italian bands would be naturally more influenced by the Italian composers whereas the UK bands would be influenced by Northern European composers? I'm not presenting this as fact but surely this is logical? One can argue all one wants about how creating a seperate genre for these bands makes it easier for the uninitiated to discover them,but this is hardly scientific is it? If one were to apply this logic consistently then a case could easily be made that every "minor" Prog Rock producing country should also be allowed this distinction. Why do these Italian bands (wonderful as they surely are) deserve a helping hand yet the scores of Argentinian bands do not? Micky's argument that "if X then why not Y" does not apply here seems false for the same reasons that dismiss Eric's argument.If the issue is one of ease of access then my original argument that we can provide a link to search by country still stands as the most logical answer to Eric's dilemna. SWITCH INDEX> countries |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:31
well said Tony... the case needs to discussed logicially and scientifically.... something right up my alley ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:34
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 17:55
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 18:01
Thanks my old friend of many battles and I know you will enjoy the debates as much as I do, we have them since DDD days.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:18
* emoticon for shaking hands then giving you a slap on the *ss * ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:29
ROFLMAO you should refer to this one javascript:void%280%29;">
 , but I'm also training for the next round: javascript:void%280%29;"> Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 19:46
hahahha.. you seriously underestimate me.....  my training.... A bottle of Pinot Grigio and a push button.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 23:20
Oh come on Micky, go for the gusto. If you are going that big, it should be a Barolo, or Barbaresco.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 04:07
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No, because basically the Italian Symphonic Prog is a mix of The Nice/ ELP, Jethro Tull, Genesis and first King Crimson.
Other Prog genre played in Italy don't have the charateristics of an autonomous genre.
In general for 70's this is a genre. But today I consider Italian Symphonic Prog a sub sub genre of Symphonic Prog and other band... Jazz, Art Rock or other.
For this reason I voted no. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 05:52
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I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:
over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that are not Italian.
If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 05:56
not ignored... just already considered I guess hahahha Hugues.. this has been discussed already.. and if RPI happens if will be open to other non-Italian groups... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 06:16
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------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 10:34
Well done Hugues,all that proves is that you ignored my posts which referred to yours....
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 15:13
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Though the following "link" is in Spanish, I think that the "subgenres" proposed could add something to this discussion...
http://manticornio.com/escuela/index-escuela.html - http://manticornio.com/escuela/index-escuela.html
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Posted By: Spiderprog
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 16:08
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I think this whole discussion should be about what will be better for music lovers to discover new bands and albums and supporting bands that would otherwise not be discovered. To hell with what is right or wrong with providing some or all the information by country if it helps people discover Swedish or Spanish or Eskimo bands and promoting prog in these countries. Giving Italian Prog its own category helped many, many people discover albums and bands they would never discover otherwise. In the same way giving categories for Swedish, Spanish, South American etc. will help the music of these countries to be exposed. The main thing should be discovering and enjoying music. If a system helps doing just that and contradicts dome cold and dry theories about Prog Genres, so what? Just think of how much more exposure French and Spanish bands, for example, will be able to receive if a 100 best albums list for these countries or a similar system will be added to this site. The fact remains that even if theoretically speaking it's the right thing to do, most of the Italian bands (and some great masterpieces) will get close to zero exposure if Italian Progressive will be combined with Symphonic Progressive. |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: September 11 2006 at 17:22
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^^^Very sensible, Spiderprog! I agree. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |