Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre

Pweehww.. wath a thread this is.
I don't know a lot about Italian prog, but it looks like this whole thread comes down to the following statements and their resulting conclusion.

1. (sub)Genres should be based on musical, or rather artistic distinctions in style (artistic rather than musical in order to make sure vocals and lyrics - which are often influenced a lot by culture - are included)
2. In some cases, musical and artistic distinctions are bound to a specific area or country, or originate there.
3. Some people are interested in music, or prog, from specific countries and looking for information through this site.

Based on these two statements and the input provided in this thread, I would conclude that

a. A lot of what is now in Italian prog should actually be in the Symphonic prog genre
b. The remainder of Italian prog should be in a separate genre (see statement 2), but may have influenced among others Argentinian prog bands, so the name Italian Prog could be misleading if those bands are added. Look for a better name I'd say.
c. PA should provide an easy way to find bands based on country. Could M@X cover this and other query specifics in an 'advanced search'?

Just my 2 euro cents

Angelo (my name's Italian, my roots are Belgian and my nationality is Dutch, and my taste in music is 'legion and global')


Edited by Angelo - September 09 2006 at 15:39

Yes Raffaella,, I was thinking to write something, but that takes a lot of time... There are many books and you can get many informations in internet (interviews, retrospectives...) but only in Italian... to elaborate this stuff and translate it... what a hard work!

Edited by andrea - September 09 2006 at 13:10

Andrea, that could be a good subject for the Blog, so that the issue may become a bit clearer to all Forum members!

Ghost Rider wrote: OK, just for accuracy's sake: - from a linguistic point of view, there isn't that much difference between 'from Italy' and 'Italian' - I would even go so far as to say there is none; - Italianprog.it (or .com, for the English version) is a very thorough website on Italian prog in the Seventies. That said, it includes bands and artists that have a very distant relationship with prog, but this is because in that decade the phenomenon was so widespread and all-pervasive that it touched most sectors of popular (i.e. not classical) music; - the rather artificial subgenres used by GEPR or ProgGnosis are not comparable in any way with having a dedicated Italian Progressive Rock section - as a native Italian who was there in the early Seventies, I can attest to the extreme importance of the phenomenon at the time, and to the way it has remained ingrained in Italian musical culture to this day. Moreover, there is also a question of sheer numbers... Apart from Krautrock, there is no other country that has the sheer number of bands that Italy can boast of. Then, of course ,there are  the folk influences that Micky mentioned in one of his posts - influences which can be traced back to different regions of Italy, and are as such very diverse and worth investigating (Osanna being a prime example of this). I'm posting this because I see both sides of the argument, and not necessarily because I want to support one point of view over the other - and, of course, because I have been an eyewitness of the whole phenomenon, and as such I feel qualified to speak.

Uwe Zickel wrote: Where is your problem - Andrea? Why should italian progressive rock be a special case in the discussion about genres/subgenres? With no doubt there are many visitors who want to have informations about italian bands. They can have! Nobody wants to delete them! But I don't know any reason for a special italian subgenre

Sean Trane wrote: micky wrote: Sean Trane wrote:   I guess you'll have to pay him back, uh?       You guys know my opinion on this and if Italian prog remains I will ask M@X for Quebec Prog and Eskimo prog. hahahha... and maybe if you can show that they were important in the grand scheme of things prog and an important stepping stone to non-english prog... M@X might do it   M@X is quebecois (so is Ron) and even him refgrains from patriotism on his own site.     Anyway, Raf and Micky!!!   Sorry but YOU LOSE. I must say I hired your "boss" to champion my cause against his own team

hahahha... Hugues.. I have the facts and common sense on my side... all that is on my 'bosses" (term loosely used of course)  side is a bunch of bluster, personal opinion based on god knows what, and a bunch of people who vote ...without looking and considering waht they voted for.... for the record ...there were over 20 no votes before I ever started making a case as to why it should.

OK, just for accuracy's sake:

- from a linguistic point of view, there isn't that much difference between 'from Italy' and 'Italian' - I would even go so far as to say there is none;

- Italianprog.it (or .com, for the English version) is a very thorough website on Italian prog in the Seventies. That said, it includes bands and artists that have a very distant relationship with prog, but this is because in that decade the phenomenon was so widespread and all-pervasive that it touched most sectors of popular (i.e. not classical) music;

- the rather artificial subgenres used by GEPR or ProgGnosis are not comparable in any way with having a dedicated Italian Progressive Rock section - as a native Italian who was there in the early Seventies, I can attest to the extreme importance of the phenomenon at the time, and to the way it has remained ingrained in Italian musical culture to this day.

Moreover, there is also a question of sheer numbers... Apart from Krautrock, there is no other country that has the sheer number of bands that Italy can boast of. Then, of course ,there are  the folk influences that Micky mentioned in one of his posts - influences which can be traced back to different regions of Italy, and are as such very diverse and worth investigating (Osanna being a prime example of this).

I'm posting this because I see both sides of the argument, and not necessarily because I want to support one point of view over the other - and, of course, because I have been an eyewitness of the whole phenomenon, and as such I feel qualified to speak.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: andrea wrote: IVAN_MELGAR_M wrote:   Will this Italian Canterbury band Picchio Dal Pozzo will also be moved from Canterbury to Italian Symphonic being THE ONLY AND UNIQUE EXPRESSION OF ITALIAN CANTERBURY?     Yes, of course... like Delirium, Area, Arti & Mestieri, De De Lind and many others...   But this is not exctly my opionion... It's not me that invented Italian progressive subgenre... But I think that ignoring it could be misleading...   Have a look to the following links... Music distributors that heve Italianprog as a subgenre...     http://www.nannucci.it/   http://www.topten.it/index.php?sez=CD&sub=quicksearch&campo=Genere&args=progressivo+italiano   And have a look to the following link... The list of artists... the list of books... And to the other sites "linked"...    http://www.italianprog.it/   You can uderstand Italian, so try this other one...   http://www.sezionemusica.it/discografie/gruppi%20progressivi/storia%20prog%20italiano.htm   I could go on and on...   Andrea please, don't try to sell us this story, you're quoting:     None of this is a site of Progressive Rick, the first two sites are stores from Italy and for Italian public, writen in Italian deduicated to sell Propgressive Rock that comes from Italy. Of course they are... What I was trying to say is that In Italy (and elsewhere) bands like Picchio dal Pozzo, Area and BMS have always been associated and put in the same category (although their music is clearly different)... Those links were just two exemples and nothing more...   The Second two sites are sites from Italy and for Italian public, writen in Italian deducated to talk about  Progressive Rock that comes from Italy. Well, I agree for the second but Italianprog was originally written in English and you have just to "clik" to go on the English version...  Just a quote from the site: "The idea behind ItalianProg is to give music collectors from all over the world a source of information on the italian progressive music of the 70's (but some information will be given on relevant groups and releases from later years) written by fans and collectors themselves... Information is taken from many sources, first of all the personal experience that every collector has taken from many years of desperate record-hunting, but a small bibliography is given in the Books section"   Andrea, this is not a description of a genre, this sites are trying to sell CD's and to talk about Italian Prog for Italian public.   The reference to Italian Prog is merely DESCRIPTIVE they are not talking about a genre, they are just describing Progressive Rock that comes from Italy. Well, here you're perfectly right and I agree with you but... Italian Prog is not exactly the description of a genre it's more the description of a mouvement with many faces and different music influences... If you want to describe the Italian prog subgenre you have to describe that mouvement, its social background, its developement... If you don't make this, Italianprog as a subgenre is a nonsense...

[( Originally posted bu Ivan Melgar M ) [/QUOTE]

Edited by andrea - September 09 2006 at 09:32

bhikkhu wrote:     I understand what all of my esteemed colleagues are saying, and it's hard to fight the urge to flip flop. I am one of the people who discovered this wonderful music by having it in an easily accessible place. I just can't help but agree with the fact that nationality should not warrant a sub-genre. I tend to look for similar influences. If you start with Genesis, that could lead you to Yes, then to Eloy, on to Le Orme, and end up with Wobbler. It doesn't matter where they come from. The discovery of new symphonic music has been made. I am in favor of some kind of cross referencing system. Notations can be made in bios, and there could be a way to link to their contemporaries.

hahahha.....  why fight it.... you have the urge to flip-flop because you know I am right   HT ...It DOES matter where they came from....in particular this case.... there is such a apparent folk element in RPI in addition plus ....I can't really put my finger on it... but have seen it written that there is something ...extra.. that the Italians brought to prog that just isn't apparent from their influences... and as far as those influences.... sure ....possibly to start they were... but they soon moved far past them... look at ELP -> Le Orme for example  and through the festival circuits ... the tours ...these groups knew each other...shared members quite regularly hahahh... and were a seperate movement of their own... the english helped provide a spark.... but that's it... anyone who thinks that these Italian groups were clones of their English contemoraries really should listen a bit closer to the albums.   

As far as a cross referencing system... nice idea again... but for most other than a select few.. this site if fun... and a place to meet, discuss  and recommend...  my way involves a simple name change and plucking some groups like De De Lind out from the obscurity from where they presently lie.... a considered top 10 RPI album.. that sits in Art-Rock.... obscure beyond belief.    With a minimum of admin and SC effort... you have streamlined the system... who wants to slave over completely trashing... what has no reason to be trashed and has served all of us so well.   Change just for the sake of change is absolute rubbish.  With a name change here or there.. and maybe a new sub or two... in much less time... you have an even better system..