Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre

Ghost Rider wrote: Well, call it a cheap shot at patriotic pride (something I've never really been good at), or just being influenced by some people's hard-to-ignore flashing sigs.... Anyway, I thought it was time to sound the opinions of the PA crowd as concerns the feasibility of moving all Italian prog bands to one specific subgenre of their own, called Italian Progressive Rock (you all know what the original Italian phrasing is by now...). As a matter of fact, the original intention of the Symphonic Team, to which I have the honour of belonging, was to subject the whole section of Italian Symphonic Prog to a major overhaul in order to pick up non-symph bands, then include the remaining ones in the general Symphonic subgenre. Before anything like that happens, seen as this site seems to be full of Italian prog aficionados, as PA's only "Italian on top" I'd like to see what people here think of the idea... And no, I was NOT paid anything to start this poll...

hahahha   wow.... well the battle is finally joined... great poll and interesting responces so far...

I"m tied up at the minute but will definitely respond  to the points raised in this....

andrea wrote: It's not a matter of Country... If there is a Canterbury style, every city of Britain should have his own prog subgenre?

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 09 2006 at 02:59

agreed with Ivan and the idea of a search by country

having never really been into Italian rock however, this site has helped me find new bands, Museo Rosenbach for one, that I would not have probably found otherwise

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   It may be unique (And I respect what Micky and Erik have to say) but STILL my PERSONAL opinion is  no.   Iván

and while I respect your opinion Ivan....  it does nothing to help the posters of this site.... and regardless of what your personal opinion is.... as  SC  that should be your primary concern .... the people that look to you and us for guidance to navigate the 1000's bands 100's of countries and countless 1000's of albums  ...  if it is unique... which you know it to be....and is a major subset of prog rock..which you also know it to be... .instantly identifiable as such.... then it should be included...  there is no way around it.  What is more important Ivan.. your opinion... or the welfare and cointiued ease of locating and exploring new groups. for those who have no clue about the weath of great bands from that movement. 

micky wrote: Tony R wrote: erik neuteboom wrote: For those progheads it's very consumer friendly when they can check out the Italian - and Spanish progrock scene if these bands are categorized like Italian Classic Symphonic Rock or Typical Italian Prog or Prog Andaluz. For me it's this simple: it's nonsense to conclude that it will be too confusing or we have to add Greek Prog, Argentine Prog, etc. because we have to focus on what's good for the visiting progheads, the Italian and Spanish progrock are so distinctive that they deserve a special category, in my opinion. So lets ask MAX to install an easy-to-use "Search By Country" button and this will not be a problem anymore. nice idea.... but with a two or three  clicks of the mouse you have that already.....

so the problem of finding these bands is perceived and not difficult in reality...?

Either you have to dig deep into the database to discover these bands or you dont.
If "three clicks" is proving a problem wouldnt a "one click" search option be a good idea?
     

Well, regarding the Krautrock genre, much of it is unique.  If Krautrock wasn't it's own catagory, where would Can go?  Where would NEU! go?  Krautrock is a style of its self, while Italian symphonic is just symphinic prog that happens to be made in Italy.  

rileydog22 wrote: Krautrock is a style of its self

In my opinion you have to declare all the subgenres of Progressive Rock as global/international subjects!

Of course there are existing categories/styles like Italian Symphonic Rock, Krautrock or others which have a relationship to a special country - but they cannot be a subgenre!

Tony R wrote: so the problem of finding these bands is perceived and not difficult in reality...? Either you have to dig deep into the database to discover these bands or you dont. If "three clicks" is proving a problem wouldnt a "one click" search option be a good idea?

edit - hahah tried to lost it a second time.. this time I copied it before I sent it...


damn computer... lost a lost post... don't you hate that when it happens hahahha


try it again....


that would great Tony.... if looking for a band from Latvia or Albania....  The point I have always made here... and will take to my PA's grave is this is about spotlighting a particular and rather insular prog movement.  To my recollections and to date not one person has actually come up with a reason why it shouldn't... other than BS roundabut answers  as to then all would deserve it... oh horsesh*t    There were only two progressive movement that exceed or even touch the vibarant. and STILL ongoing progressive moverment that exists in Italy. The English and the German.   The English don't need there own.. . if you've been here at PA's for longer than 10 minutes... you know the answer why.. and the Germans have their own and rightly so.  If someone thinks that other countries should have them... great.. they should be debated on their own merits.. and everyone...cut the crap about 'if X then Y'... we don't do it for bands.... or sub-genres either...  if the Canadian scene... hahahha... . deserves one..then someone will step forward and explain why... ssimple as that.


The point NONE of you all can deny... is the fact that 100's  even 1000's of posters have been exposed to Italian prog because of it's own page with spotlighted albums... .fold those albums into the vast depths of symphonic and art-rock...  and they'd go from being held up as the classics that they are.... to being obscure albums covered by every damn album Genesis and about 10 other English Americans groups ever made.   The most important point though is...  how many of those 100's or 1000's who got into Italian prog because of the current layout.. then later explored other areas of the world... .

Another point ....this on the symphonic issue....  from one who has spent hours and hours listening to songs, albums, samples from groups all over the world... who exactly determines what is symphonic or not.... a group of 3 or 4 people....   as we know... and you all know... these groups did not just crank out symphonic album after symphonic album.... they evolved changed...  to spotlight these groups based on the movement they sprang out of is the best way to categoize them... espeically the Italian groups..   that is why I want RPI...  take Osanna for example.. .where would you put them.... symphonic... PR ... art rock.. who knows.. .you just described their first 3 albums....

I'm done for now..I've got housework to finsh   The posters of this site are who we as Admins and SC's in reality.. serve.. if you think that folding all these great groups into the vast wasteland of bloated sub's is a good thing and serves them ... you are out of your frickin minds....  I'm OUT  hahhaha

    I understand what all of my esteemed colleagues are saying, and it's hard to fight the urge to flip flop. I am one of the people who discovered this wonderful music by having it in an easily accessible place. I just can't help but agree with the fact that nationality should not warrant a sub-genre. I tend to look for similar influences. If you start with Genesis, that could lead you to Yes, then to Eloy, on to Le Orme, and end up with Wobbler. It doesn't matter where they come from. The discovery of new symphonic music has been made. I am in favor of some kind of cross referencing system. Notations can be made in bios, and there could be a way to link to their contemporaries.

bhikkhu wrote:     I understand what all of my esteemed colleagues are saying, and it's hard to fight the urge to flip flop. I am one of the people who discovered this wonderful music by having it in an easily accessible place. I just can't help but agree with the fact that nationality should not warrant a sub-genre. I tend to look for similar influences. If you start with Genesis, that could lead you to Yes, then to Eloy, on to Le Orme, and end up with Wobbler. It doesn't matter where they come from. The discovery of new symphonic music has been made. I am in favor of some kind of cross referencing system. Notations can be made in bios, and there could be a way to link to their contemporaries.

hahahha.....  why fight it.... you have the urge to flip-flop because you know I am right   HT ...It DOES matter where they came from....in particular this case.... there is such a apparent folk element in RPI in addition plus ....I can't really put my finger on it... but have seen it written that there is something ...extra.. that the Italians brought to prog that just isn't apparent from their influences... and as far as those influences.... sure ....possibly to start they were... but they soon moved far past them... look at ELP -> Le Orme for example  and through the festival circuits ... the tours ...these groups knew each other...shared members quite regularly hahahh... and were a seperate movement of their own... the english helped provide a spark.... but that's it... anyone who thinks that these Italian groups were clones of their English contemoraries really should listen a bit closer to the albums.   

As far as a cross referencing system... nice idea again... but for most other than a select few.. this site if fun... and a place to meet, discuss  and recommend...  my way involves a simple name change and plucking some groups like De De Lind out from the obscurity from where they presently lie.... a considered top 10 RPI album.. that sits in Art-Rock.... obscure beyond belief.    With a minimum of admin and SC effort... you have streamlined the system... who wants to slave over completely trashing... what has no reason to be trashed and has served all of us so well.   Change just for the sake of change is absolute rubbish.  With a name change here or there.. and maybe a new sub or two... in much less time... you have an even better system..