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Philéas 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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 Posted: July 31 2006 at 12:26 |
 Tony R wrote:
The idea that non-musicians shouldnt comment about musicianship is patently absurd.
You can learn to accurately critique any "art" without being able to practice those disciplines yourself.
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Perhaps, but ask pretty much any musician or painter or artist of any kind, and most of them will probably disagree with you.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 12:41 |
Philéas wrote:
Tony R wrote:
The idea that non-musicians shouldnt comment about musicianship is patently absurd.
You can learn to accurately critique any "art" without being able to practice those disciplines yourself.
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Perhaps, but ask pretty much any musician or painter or artist of any kind, and most of them will probably disagree with you.
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Doesnt make my statement any less valid.
This whole premise is ludicrous.
Tell me how even being the greatest guitarist in the world would make you qualified to assess the technique of a Rudess or a Portnoy? Remembering that Dream Theater music doesnt merely mean Petruccis guitar work but also drums,keyboards and bass.
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 13:50 |
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You listen to music in a different way when you are a musician
yourself. It's hard to explain, especially since English is not my
native language. Pick up an instrument and start playing it, and you
will see what I mean. Some things previously thought of as hard reveal
themselves as very simple, and some things previosly thought of as very
basic turn out to be much more complicated than one ever expected. Many
such things simply cannot be understood correctly by critics who have
never touched an instrument themselves, no matter how thoroughly they
have studied music. If you are a musician yourself I shouldn't need to
be explaining this to you.
My point with my previous post was to highlight the fact that even
though I agree with you to some extent, the vast majority of artists
will never do that.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You have yours,
and this is one of mine, and one I don't feel like changing any time
soon. Call me close-minded, stupid, uneducated or whatever, I know what
I know, and I am happy about it.
I'm sorry about the mess.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 14:20 |
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What mess?
I think it is perfectly reasonable in a thread about Dream Theater to discuss technicality and the critique of technicality by non-musicians.
Just because I and others disagree with you and say so does not mean that the discussion has gone wrong.It means the discussion is proceeding as a discussion is expected to proceed ie with opposing views and disagreement.
I might add once more that there are many people on this forum who can play or claim to play an instrument. What we cannot assess is to what degree of proficiency they can do it.If simply being able to play an instrument was the be all and end all to music critique then any kind of academic qualification in music would be redundant.
I state once more that being able to play an instrument does not necessarily mean that you will be able to critique technique better than someone who cant.
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 14:33 |
TheLamb wrote:
I have a question to all you DT haters and lovers;
How many of you are actually musicians, or atleast amateur musicians?
I think the main problem (it's not a real problem  ) is that Dream Theater's fan-base is full of "fanboys" who know nothing about propper music. They do not really comprehend Dream Theater's complexity and genius, but they like them anyways because Petrucci plays guitars very fast. Also, the fan base also contains a few people who know stuff about music, and they can actually understand the music and like it for the right reasons, but those people are referred to as fanboys just because they like the same band as the stupid guys who don't know sh*t about music.
Also, many DT haters know nothing about music. I respect people who might not like DT for sensible reasons... But some people just don't like DT because they don't want to be considered "fanboys"... Or just use the classic argument "They are just w**kers boasting in their speed".
Well I would just like to say something vulgar for once after shutting up about this for a very long while of consistently annoying "DT haters" threads:
To all you who claim that DT are just w**kers showing off technique, You are stupid, you know nothing about music. Your mind is just way too small to truely comprehend the genius of DT. Try covering one of their songs before you open your mouth, or better yet, just shut your mouth for good.
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I am a DT lover. I am a musician I play bass, guitar, keyboards, trombone, baritone, and tuba. I've studied music classically from 6th-12th grade. I also have been graduated from five years worth of bass playing with skill on a professional level with a painstaking study to understand music theory. I have a band which plays around my town on a regular bassist. I grew up in my uncle's recording studio, so I understand music from the studio/production and engineering aspect as well.
Now that you have my resume, would you like to hire me?
I think you will find that Dream Theater's fanbase is largely made up of musicians and you will see that they do a great job of reaching out to them because each of the instrumentalist have at some times been regular contributers to "Modern Drummer", "Guitar Player", "Bass Player", and I believe "Keyboard" or "Electronic Musician". Of course I am speaking about Portnoy, Petrucci, Myung, and Rudess. The musicians community heralds these guys as great musicians, and they respective them enough to listen to their advice. This puts these guys in a class with players like Steve Morse, Bryan Beller, Rusty Cooley, and many other great musicians who have taken the time to go out and write columns every month for a year or two to help not only their fans but all musicians become better players.
My favorite group of DT haters have never said anything of the sort, the ones that are worth paying attention to which at one time or another give a very constructive arguement about what it is they don't like about DT. Certif1ed is actually a piano teacher, I think he knows something about music.
It's true, on this website and all website there are a group of people that hate DT for no good reason, but what's the point of paying attention to those people, they'll never take up an arguement.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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TheLamb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 18 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 416
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 15:38 |
I must say AtLossForWords, that I am confused but also intrigued by your request that I would hire you. We're not looking for a bassist right now. We are looking for a vocalist though, can you sing?
(Im joking of course. You ask in sarcasm, I reply in sarcasm... Friendly sarcasm that is  )
Of course DT's fanbase has plenty of musicians and people who know their music, but also... Like I said it also has lots of... Uhm... Odd looking, odd acting people who I doubt truely understand the genius of DT. (Check out the special features on Scenes from New York DVD... It shows some fans that... Ehm... You just judge for yourself...)...
And yes, I agree that people who don't give constructive arguments should be ignored, and so I have for a long while... Maybe I should have just kept ignoring them instead of calling them stupid.
Tony R, I agree that you don't have to be a musician to critisize music... I just think that a musician could do a hell of a better job critisizing on some (not all) terms. It all comes down to when you are a musician, you understand music at a whole different level.
I could give 100 examples (and I want to... but it seems a bit out of place...) of music that couldn't be critisized propperly by people who aren't musicians, or atleast know ALOT about music.
Edited by TheLamb - July 31 2006 at 15:40
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 16:38 |
Tony R wrote:
What mess?
I think it is perfectly reasonable in a thread about Dream Theater to
discuss technicality and the critique of technicality by non-musicians.
Just because I and others disagree with you and say so does not mean
that the discussion has gone wrong.It means the discussion is
proceeding as a discussion is expected to proceed ie with opposing
views and disagreement. |
My post looked pretty messy in my eyes, that's what I was referring to. 
After some dinner and a cup of tea I'm in a slightly better mood and I feel more focused. I will try to clarify myself.
Tony R wrote:
I might add once more that there are many people on this forum who can
play or claim to play an instrument. What we cannot assess is to what
degree of proficiency they can do it.If simply being able to play an
instrument was the be all and end all to music critique then any kind
of academic qualification in music would be redundant.
I state once more that being able to play an instrument does not
necessarily mean that you will be able to critique technique better
than someone who cant. |
Of course you are right. In order to understand music the way I tried
to explain, one needs to be proficient at an instrument, and that
includes having a considerable knowledge of music theory. And like you
say, one can also have enough theoretical knowledge to make valid
comments about music without being able to play. My point though was
that being a proficient musician opens many new doors to understanding
music.
Like AtLossForWords stated in his post, Dream Theater are typical
"musicians' musicans", which makes it easier to understand and also
appreciate their music if oneself is a proficient musician aswell. That
is why I kindly advise non-musicians accusing DT of excessive technical
showing off to learn some music theory and/or to learn to play an
instrument, which is also what I stated in my first post. This, of
course, goes for pretty much any subject, not only music. One need to
know what one is talking about, but sadly, many DT haters don't. 
To clarify: my comment really doesn't concern those non-musicians who
already know enough about music to comment on musical techique. Like
you said, it is possible to learn (I agreed on that from the beginning,
but I didn't express it clearly enough  ),
and that's what I advise people without enough knowledge to do. To
again clarify myself a bit, that goes for both non-musicians and
musicians, as musicians also can lack sufficient theoretical knowledge.
I hope it's less messy now.
No hard feelings!
P.
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TheLamb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 18 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 416
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 16:51 |
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I agree with him ^
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sbrushfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1177
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 17:36 |
I'm a musician (drums-17 years, keys-14 years, percussion-17 years, guitar-3 years, vocals-most of my life) as well as a songwriter for 11 years. When approaching a Dream Theater critique, IMO, one should have an understanding of their music or an understanding of music (and theory) IN GENERAL. No offense to anyone here who's not a musician (I'm sorry if I offend anyone) but, if you don't have an understanding of music as musicians hear it, you don't know what to look for, and moreover, what you're hearing.
The same could be said for a band like, say, Rush. Alex Lifeson, in a 2002 interview with Guitar World, said more or less that "bands like us and Dream Theater are music for musicians. If you don't play at least one instrument, you won't get it."
I tend to think he's right.
Now, I shall run away as fast as my little drummer legs carry me. I daresay that some sh*t might be stirred up and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire.
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Some world views are spacious, and some are merely spaced...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:10 |
hahhah... awesome... the symphonic team rejoyces in victory and retires to the veranda for a mint julip. 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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TheLamb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 18 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 416
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:19 |
sbrushfan wrote:
I'm a musician (drums-17 years, keys-14 years, percussion-17 years, guitar-3 years, vocals-most of my life) as well as a songwriter for 11 years. When approaching a Dream Theater critique, IMO, one should have an understanding of their music or an understanding of music (and theory) IN GENERAL. No offense to anyone here who's not a musician (I'm sorry if I offend anyone) but, if you don't have an understanding of music as musicians hear it, you don't know what to look for, and moreover, what you're hearing.
The same could be said for a band like, say, Rush. Alex Lifeson, in a 2002 interview with Guitar World, said more or less that "bands like us and Dream Theater are music for musicians. If you don't play at least one instrument, you won't get it."
I tend to think he's right.
Now, I shall run away as fast as my little drummer legs carry me. I daresay that some sh*t might be stirred up and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire. |
Wow, Alex Lifeson really said that?
I mean... He is 100% right, but thats not something I would expect to hear from him...
I agree with sbrushfan completly.
I think it's true though not only about DT and Rush, it's true about all music.
The reason people like commercial pop such as Britney Spears is because they have no musical knowledge (theory or experience). They can't understand how simple and lacking of artistic depth her music is (I would tend to say it "sucks" but that is a matter of taste...).
The vast majority of musicians, or people who have some knowledge of music don't like commercial pop. And the small precentage of musical savants that do enjoy commercial pop would probably not deny that it is very simple, commercial, and lacking of emotional depth.
In the same sense, people with no musical knowledge are likely to not be able to fully appreciate music that is complex, full of emotional and artistic depth. At least not in the same way that people with musical knowledge do.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:26 |
TheLamb wrote:
sbrushfan wrote:
I'm a musician (drums-17 years, keys-14
years, percussion-17 years, guitar-3 years, vocals-most of my life) as
well as a songwriter for 11 years. When approaching a Dream
Theater critique, IMO, one should have an understanding of their music or an understanding of music (and theory) IN GENERAL. No offense to anyone here who's not a musician (I'm sorry
if I offend anyone) but, if you don't have an understanding of music as
musicians hear it, you don't know what to look for, and moreover, what
you're hearing. The same could be said for a band like, say, Rush. Alex
Lifeson, in a 2002 interview with Guitar World, said more or less that
"bands like us and Dream Theater are music for musicians. If you
don't play at least one instrument, you won't get it."
I tend to think he's right.
Now, I shall run away as fast as my little drummer legs carry
me. I daresay that some sh*t might be stirred up and I don't want
to be caught in the crossfire. |
Wow, Alex Lifeson really said that?
I mean... He is 100% right, but thats not something I would expect to hear from him...
I agree with sbrushfan completly.
I think it's true though not only about DT and Rush, it's true about all music.
The reason people like commercial pop such as Britney
Spears is because they have no musical knowledge (theory or
experience). They can't understand how simple and lacking of
artistic depth her music is (I would tend to say it "sucks"
but that is a matter of taste...).
The vast majority of musicians, or people who have some
knowledge of music don't like commercial pop. And the small precentage
of musical savants that do enjoy commercial pop would probably not
deny that it is very simple, commercial, and lacking of
emotional depth.
In the same sense, people with no musical knowledge are likely to
not be able to fully appreciate music that is complex, full of
emotional and artistic depth. At least not in the same way that people
with musical knowledge do. |
hahahah... shame I don't have time, and need to run or I'd reply to that pile of sh*t you just unloaded here hahah.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:33 |
Mickey,where you been?
I've been pretty much solo here,finger steadfastly stuck in the dyke preventing the bullsh*t from enveloping our little village... 
Edited by Tony R - July 31 2006 at 18:33
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:47 |
Tony R wrote:
Mickey,where you been?
I've been pretty much solo here,finger steadfastly stuck in the dyke preventing the bullsh*t from enveloping our little village...
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This is the Dream Theater fanbase I've been waiting to see for so long. Just keep it coming, I like what I'm seeing here Tony.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:54 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
This is the Dream Theater fanbase I've been waiting to see for so long. Just keep it coming, I like what I'm seeing here Tony |
I'm quite sure that Petrucci and the boys will be thrilled about this gaggle of school-age fanboys rooting for them.
I've just cancelled a reservation at our local gourmet restaurant because I've just realised I've never been a chef.... 
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:56 |
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 18:59 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
I just hope their usernames are not changed to "guests" before your binge is over |
You are most definitely safe.I've just reminded myself of the fact that not having written any novels I'm probably not qualified to judge the quality of your posts.....
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 19:05 |
Tony R wrote:
AtLossForWords wrote:
I just hope their usernames are not changed to "guests" before your binge is over |
You are most definitely safe.I've just reminded myself of the fact that not having written any novels I'm probably not qualified to judge the quality of your posts.....
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You should become an author Tony, we'd all love to see just how creative you really are. 
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 22:09 |
Tony R wrote:
Mickey,where you been?
I've been pretty much solo here,finger steadfastly stuck in the
dyke preventing the bullsh*t from enveloping our little village...
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hahah... it looked like you had things under control... part of
experience is knowing when the give people enough rope to hang
themselves.. nice job. That last post was utter rubbish.
Sorry I was away.... I had to was out of gas and had to and
from work since I'm not an auto mechanic.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: July 31 2006 at 22:44 |
TheLamb wrote:
sbrushfan wrote:
I'm a musician (drums-17 years, keys-14 years, percussion-17 years, guitar-3 years, vocals-most of my life) as well as a songwriter for 11 years. When approaching a Dream Theater critique, IMO, one should have an understanding of their music or an understanding of music (and theory) IN GENERAL. No offense to anyone here who's not a musician (I'm sorry if I offend anyone) but, if you don't have an understanding of music as musicians hear it, you don't know what to look for, and moreover, what you're hearing.
The same could be said for a band like, say, Rush. Alex Lifeson, in a 2002 interview with Guitar World, said more or less that "bands like us and Dream Theater are music for musicians. If you don't play at least one instrument, you won't get it."
I tend to think he's right.
Now, I shall run away as fast as my little drummer legs carry me. I daresay that some sh*t might be stirred up and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire. |
Wow, Alex Lifeson really said that?
I mean... He is 100% right, but thats not something I would expect to hear from him...
I agree with sbrushfan completly.
I think it's true though not only about DT and Rush, it's true about all music.
The reason people like commercial pop such as Britney Spears is because they have no musical knowledge (theory or experience). They can't understand how simple and lacking of artistic depth her music is (I would tend to say it "sucks" but that is a matter of taste...).
The vast majority of musicians, or people who have some knowledge of music don't like commercial pop. And the small precentage of musical savants that do enjoy commercial pop would probably not deny that it is very simple, commercial, and lacking of emotional depth.
In the same sense, people with no musical knowledge are likely to not be able to fully appreciate music that is complex, full of emotional and artistic depth. At least not in the same way that people with musical knowledge do. |
I have never heard so much BS in my life. Well, maybe that is a bit harsh. There are a couple of guys named Bush and Blair that are right up there as well.
For one thing I am no musician and I can safely say that I certainly appreciate music. If what you say is true, then how is it that all the creative musicians that make the music we love here make a living if only the musicians are appreciative and buying??? I don't what to say too much here, but I think you should think about what you are saying. I listen to classical music which I love and jazz as well as progressive rock. If I was forced to listen to pop music based on the assumption that you make I would go mad. I can just see it now. People flocking to the nearest music school to become "enlightened" so they would not have to endure Britney anymore. I'm sure a trained musician understands the technical structure of any music to a greater degree, but so what? Music was developed as a means of expression and entertaining.
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Epics Of Dream Theater
