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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
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Points: 27802
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Topic: What is so wrong with Prog metal Posted: June 08 2006 at 16:14 |
This thread has strayed far from the original discussion,plus I will not be dressed down or have my decisions questioned by another member.
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 15:35 |
horza wrote:
I apologise if my comments were offensive.
I did'nt understand what the smeg the clever folk were on about and I wanted to join in. It was childish and I fully expect to be made to sit on the naughty chair. I do not have the internet experience of some on here and being labelled a troll has certainly made me look in the mirror and take stock of my sad life. I promise to behave in future and will try my best to see the good in people.
Hoping that this makes amends ..... etc etc
P.S. Make mine a diatonic (shaken not stirred). |
Edited by Snow Dog - June 08 2006 at 15:35
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2530
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 15:33 |
I apologise if my comments were offensive.
I did'nt understand what the smeg the clever folk were on about and I wanted to join in. It was childish and I fully expect to be made to sit on the naughty chair. I do not have the internet experience of some on here and being labelled a troll has certainly made me look in the mirror and take stock of my sad life. I promise to behave in future and will try my best to see the good in people.
Hoping that this makes amends ..... etc etc
P.S. Make mine a diatonic (shaken not stirred).
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 14:42 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
(...) I can tell by ALFW's reply that he's had enough of the discussion, so you can talk about footie or whatever non-musical people talk about. [IMG]smileys/smiley17.gif" align=middle> [IMG]smileys/smiley17.gif" align=middle> [IMG]smileys/smiley17.gif" align=middle> | "Non musical people" talk about music. I certainly do, and I find my lack of exact musical knowledge is no barrier to this. | Indeed - and the little emoticons should have indicated reasonably clearly that I was teasing. What I meant was it's as annoying for those of us that are pretentious, smug and verbose about music to have it pointed out by those who are not, as it is the other way around. I just find it uncalled for when people drop into a thread and make a comment like "this thread is up it's own arse" - when the discussion is a rational and informed exchange. What they mean is "I don't understand what you guys are talking about, I can't join in, so I think I'll derail the conversation and annoy people instead." In case it's not clear - I wasn't making any kind of attack on non-musical people. Just administering a little deserved slap-down to a troll. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align=middle> |
There is no need to call another collaborator on this forum a troll.
And if a troll DOES need a slap down the Admin Team will take care of that.
[IMG]height=17 alt="Stern Smile" src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley22.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> |
That post was a troll - it was a fair comment and appropriate slap-down - you will kindly note that I clarified that it was teasing. I do have a sense of humour - but it's English.
Admins and Collaborators should use proper channels of communication if they think there is an issue, and there is not.
This knee-jerk reaction is both uncalled for and unneccesary, and should be discussed in the Collaborators forum.
Edited by Certif1ed - June 08 2006 at 15:17
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 14:15 |
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 13:15 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
(...)
I can tell by ALFW's reply that he's had enough of the discussion, so you can talk about footie or whatever non-musical people talk about.
| "Non musical people" talk about music. I certainly do, and I find my lack of exact musical knowledge is no barrier to this. | Indeed - and the little emoticons should have indicated reasonably clearly that I was teasing.
What I meant was it's as annoying for those of us that are pretentious, smug and verbose about music to have it pointed out by those who are not, as it is the other way around.
I just find it uncalled for when people drop into a thread and make a comment like "this thread is up it's own arse" - when the discussion is a rational and informed exchange.
What they mean is "I don't understand what you guys are talking about, I can't join in, so I think I'll derail the conversation and annoy people instead."
In case it's not clear - I wasn't making any kind of attack on non-musical people.
Just administering a little deserved slap-down to a troll.
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There is no need to call another collaborator on this forum a troll.
And if a troll DOES need a slap down the Admin Team will take care of that.
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2530
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 13:15 |
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 12:27 |
I don't exactly understand the terminology but it's nice to have a little lesson, and this has certainly been one of the more interesting discussion in awhile. It's nice that it has stuck to fact the way it has so it doesn't deteriorate into a "Your Dad's unemployed, Sabbath started metal" "Nu uh your Mom's fat, Maiden started metal"
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 07:39 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
(...)
I can tell by ALFW's reply that he's had enough of the discussion, so you can talk about footie or whatever non-musical people talk about.
| "Non musical people" talk about music. I certainly do, and I find my lack of exact musical knowledge is no barrier to this. |
Indeed - and the little emoticons should have indicated reasonably clearly that I was teasing.
What I meant was it's as annoying for those of us that are pretentious, smug and verbose about music to have it pointed out by those who are not, as it is the other way around.
I just find it uncalled for when people drop into a thread and make a comment like "this thread is up it's own arse" - when the discussion is a rational and informed exchange.
What they mean is "I don't understand what you guys are talking about, I can't join in, so I think I'll derail the conversation and annoy people instead."
In case it's not clear - I wasn't making any kind of attack on non-musical people.
Just administering a little deserved slap-down to a troll.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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cannotread
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 08 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 2
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 07:35 |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 06:44 |
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 06:38 |
My ˝penny: I'm not a prog metal fan, but there's good metal music too! DEATH is cool. I quess there's some musical elements in metal which I like and some which I dislike, just trying to find albums which suit my taste best!
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Posted: June 08 2006 at 05:35 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:55 |
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2530
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:53 |
Of course I blame those pentatonic scales rooted in diatonic harmony with their incorporation of seconds and sixths ....... bummer !!
Edited by horza - June 07 2006 at 17:55
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:50 |
horza wrote:
Diatonic / Pentatonic / Ginandtonic
What the f*** ??
This is turning into Open Fecking University
Would we be talking like this over a few beers ?? - no doubt someone would mention Star Trek (which I love) and some nerd would start spouting Klingon at some point !! This thread is disappearing up its own arse.
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PAKH PAH PAKH VEKH!!!!
(to be or not to be as Christopher Plummer taugh me)
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:42 |
See, this is why Prog-Metal needs more kitties.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:41 |
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2530
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 17:39 |
Diatonic / Pentatonic / Ginandtonic
What the f*** ??
This is turning into Open Fecking University
Would we be talking like this over a few beers ?? - no doubt someone would mention Star Trek (which I love) and some nerd would start spouting Klingon at some point !! This thread is disappearing up its own arse.
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 13:17 |
Certif1ed wrote:
OK, crash course in Diatonic harmony coming up:
Diatonic harmony is created from major or minor key scales that have 7 notes, and two (DIA) tonal bases - the root or tonic, and the 5th or dominant.
The two pull at each other because of the natural physical forces of soundwaves that are exactly (or nearly exactly - but let's not discuss equal temperament!) equidistant - ie the 5th has a wavelength that is half of the octave.
Consider the blues - since that is where metal came from:
A typical 12-bar blues pattern will use triads based on the tonic, the subdominant and the dominant - using all 7 notes of the diatonic scale.
HOWEVER: melodies, including solos, use the pentatonic scale - a scale that has 5 notes that are of equal importance, but is still rooted in diatonic harmony, since the 5th exerts a natural pull on the tonic.
Confusion arises when musicians (typically guitarists) start talking about diatonic scales and make a distinction between them and pentatonic scales - the same goes for modes, but more of that later.
Here, guitarists are talking about melody - which is but one reason why I keep saying that it's important to bear in mind all 5 elements of music rather than concentrate too heavily on one. |
Of course pentatonic scales are rooted in diatonic harmony, but I personally think it's the incorporation of seconds and sixths that breaks metal riffs away from hard rock and blues.
Certif1ed wrote:
If they did, then the harmony would be modal too - but typically only jazz bands or jazz-influenced musicians use modal harmony. |
And most jazz musicians stick to Dorian modes. Classical composers no longer had an extensive use of modes after Bach. It was easier to just use accidentals to compose modulations and such.
certif1ed wrote:
For example, Metallica's Orion appears to use the pattern you describe (with an upwards shift of the 3rd which destabilises the harmony) - if you play the rhythm guitar part. But the bass fills in the root, so the true modal sense is lost. |
Metal does use slash chords for example G/E extensively. There would be something modal if the bass were to follow the Lydian mode, which of course you have already said. Personally I see a lot of fifth of fifth chords in metal music, but this isn't necessarily because the band wrote it to sound that way. It's because the bassist plays a five string with a low B and wants to play the lowest note possible.
Again, I'm not completely convinced of their use of modes, as the overall feel of the harmony is largely Dorian - the use of modes seems largely limited to the solo work (melody) - but I'll take another listen to confirm this. |
I've learned three Dream Theater albums entirely on bass, and I can say their use of modes is somewhat definative. The instrumental unisons certainly follow modal patters, and by modal patterns I don't mean simply Ionian to Dorian, but a successive cycle of modes.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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