What is so wrong with Prog metal
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24176
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Topic: What is so wrong with Prog metal
Posted By: thetick
Subject: What is so wrong with Prog metal
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 14:57
I read a lot of prog forums on the web and I get the same thing over
and over, prog metal sucks blah blah blah. The whole point of prog is
to take music to a level that usually takes a focused ear to
appreciate. The music that Dream Theater makes blows away ANYTHING
being produced in the "rock" realm today. Would you rather listen to
Nickelback or Disturbed? Most of the bands mentioned in these
discussions are not even together anymore (e.g. Genesis, ELP, Floyd).
It takes serious talent to play DT, Synphony X, Dali's Dilemma, Shadow
Gallery , etc. and many of the musicians that play now could hang with
the musicians of the golden days of prog. I would even argue that DT is
doing more to further prog than most of the neo-synphonic-classic prog
bands are. They did concepts album, long songs and make
mince-meat out of odd time more than most other prog bands out there.
If you don't like heavy guitars just say so and be done with it. But to
dismiss bands like DT just because they may be more popular than some
obscure French band is silly. Yes and Rush are more mainstream than DT
is! Now I will tell you I am a huge fan of Rsh (it's how I learned to
play drums), Yes (How awesome is Close to the Edge and The Gates of
Delerium) and Jethro Tull. However, I can't stand Genesis. I think they
are boring. I listened to several of their CD's and nearly fell asleep.
To me Marillion isn't much better. I think a lot of the discussion of
which type of prog is better stems from the demographic viewpoint of
the writer. I am 34 and grew up on heavy metal but still love Rush, Yes
Floyd and Tull. I am a card-carrying member of the prog-snob community
and I find it silly that people who like prog just dismiss other who
happen to like a "different-kind" of prog. The moral of the story is
kids, "Can't we all just get along?" Prog to me is my outlet from the
crap being played in the real world. Let's just appreciate to
musicianship and creative outlet prog gives to all of us. But I know if
we did that there would be no reason for forums. So let the flaming
begin.
------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 14:57
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Oh no....here we go again!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:01
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The whole point of prog is to take music to a level that usually takes a focused ear to appreciate
i just dont like bands that are blatantly TRYING to be "prog"...annoys me -------------  "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:03
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My feeling is that there are probably more fans of prog metal here than detractors. thetick, don't worry, you will find plenty of prog metal friends here. people, let's try to not turn this into a big flamefest.  |
Posted By: thetick
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:05
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I admit that some of the Enlish bands of the 70's were ahead of their
time and didn't really know what they were doing in terms of creating a
new genre of music, what is the point of having a musical influence
(mine is Peart and Protnoy) if you can't expound on it. Dream Theater
took the composition aspects of Yes and made them heavy. So by your
logic any band that sound remotely like aonther is "trying" too hard.
There are an infinite number of bands that copied the blues bands from
the 30's 40's and 50's (i.e. Led Zeppelin) but they were not being
judged the way you are judign DT. People knew they took blues to a
heavier place.
------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Posted By: A'swepe
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:07
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If you are in fact a "card carrying member of the prog snob comminuty", you should understand how some people don't like prog-metal.
Personally, I love DT - in small doses. There's no denying their talent, or their devotion to their craft. It's not all about how many notes you can play in one measure.
Prog-metal has its place, as does 70's era symphonic prog. There are tons of bands who no longer make music together who still enjoy a large audience. Doesn't make the music any less valid.
Part of the problem is the "Prog-Snob" attitude. You either like it or you don't. Some people like to express their opinion more that others.
I'm not disagreeing with you, this is just my opinion, for what its worth. ------------- David - Never doubt in the dark that which you believe to be true in the light. http://www.myspace.com/aardvarktxusa - Instrumental rock http://www.soundclick.com/aardvarktxusa |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:08
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There is nothing "so wrong" with prog metal. I just don't like it.
Particularly the vocals, which seem to me to be without character. But
then I haven't listened to all that much of it, so I'm not the best
judge.
------------- 
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:11
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Nothing, I just haven't been exposed to it. -------------  
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Posted By: thetick
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:11
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I don't get the number of notes being played argument. Last time I
looked Rick Wakeman was a classically trained pianist. That guys
fingers moved quicker than anyone elses back in the day. Same for
Patrick Moraz. They did classical style solos. Its funny because Jordan
Rudess get cud for moving his fingers too fast whan at the time Rick
Wakeman was praised for it.
------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:15
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The problem with Prog Metal, by and large, is that the songs contained
within the technical riffing and soloing (which can often be quite
good) are quite pedestrian Metal songs. They use Rock/Blues templates,
and personally, I'm just not interested in that, because I find it a
genre of music that has been explored, worked over and played so much
that there's virtually nothing left to do within that framework. There
are exceptions, of course (Eleven come to mind), but on the whole...it's
just terribly boring. -------------  
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Posted By: eddietrooper
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:21
| I'm 32 and I have been a classic symphonic prog lover since I was 16. All those years I didn't like Dream Theater and the rest of prog-metal stuff, as it was too heavy for my taste. But nowadays I'm a bit tired of listening always the same groups and I've realized that prog-metal bands are the real innovators of the genre. I love regressive bands like Spock's Beard or The Flower Kings, but I have to admit that Dream Theater, Opeth, etc. have something newer and exciting to offer. I forced myself to listen to them and now, after I have got used to their heavy approach, I love their music. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:27
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Nota bene: I have absolutely no problem with the heaviness. I grew up
on Metallica, Motörhead, Megadeth, Therapy? and others, coming from a
hardcore Punk background (Black Flag and Flipper are still abnds I
enjoy a great deal). I like me a good aggressive thrash, but as soon as it turns into Blues, I'm out. -------------
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Posted By: thetick
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:33
I really don't understand the blues thing. I played blues for several years and trust me it is nothing like DT Shadow Gallery or Dali's Dilemma. I have a fair amount of musical knowledge and I don't understand the melodic make-up of DT songs. They use classical chord structures with wierd church mode scales all the time. Rush's first album is blues and they had a smattering of bluesey tunes scattered on their fist couple albums (I think I'm going bald to name one). ------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Teaflax wrote:Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:58
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Nothing's wrong with Prog Metal, besides the fact that most people don't realize there are more than two damn representatives of it!
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:03
I think I'm the same. Besides Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Ayreon, and some others, I just find the genre boring. A lot of it sounds the same as others' work. |
Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:14
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i used to like DT and other prog metal bands, but the only album i think i would consider playing nowadays is Angra's Holy Land, it was a nice blend of metal/hard rock and progressive music, but honestly i guess i don't really hear it as a metal album like a used to metal is progressive in it's own way, you have many unique styles ranging from black to death to doom to epic to power to classic to folk to speed and so on, now there are these bands releasing these "progressive" albums that just lack the power that metal should have, metal is known for it's w**kery, it doesn't need any more but that's all you get
Aaron
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:15
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It's the technique in prog metal for me that proves its strength and simultaneously, its weakness. Nobody can deny that the musicians are of an extremely high quality, but the often repeated statement of how there's too much noodling and not enough songwriting are my sentiments, really. The main criticism I have of it (at least the albums I've heard) is that it's pretty relentless and there's not enough subtlety. I like music with a bit of variation but too much of the genre I've heard is too flamboyant and not enough light and shade that all the 70s, and imo, 80s bands had.
Whilst I enjoy listening to the albums when they are on, after them I remember very little (this genre's not alone- I have the same issue with jazz- but not jazz rock, which I adore). Dream Theater have at least grown in my appreciation a heck of a lot and in turn, so may the other bands of the genre like Symphony X etc., but after about a year of trying, most bands do very little for me indeed. I therefore wouldn't say I didn't like 'prog metal', but I prefer other sub-genres to it at the moment.
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Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:20
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name some prog metal bands that lack technique and focus on songwriting, i would actually like to check bands like that out Aaron
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Posted By: Fritha
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:21
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IMO there is nothing wrong with prog-metal in general and I'm actually enthusiastically
checking out this genre properly at the moment, having bought two records (Opeth: Blackwater Park and Novembre: Materia) earlier this week. I really enjoy both of them, and this coming from somebody who is otherwise a big fan of the 'lighter' prog sound like jazz-rock tinged Canterbury and other early 70s UK-based prog. (Of course, I was initially lured into prog by some classic Rush records so perhaps it's not that big of a surprise that I find myself drawn to the more metallic edge of prog as well!)
Maybe a lot of the people, who listen to traditional prog -OR avant-garde prog- get uncomfortable with the 'thickness' of the music; there doesn't seem to be a lot of 'space' in prog-metal (you know, musically "mute" points or whatever it could be called -my mastery of the English language is failing me here, lol) thus making it perhaps sound too monotonous and one-sided -and thus emotionally void- to many. But my knowledge of prog-metal is severely limited at this point so this is all just speculating on my part... All I know is that I personally find this extreme thickness of musical textures just a wonderful challenge to tackle.
I'm afraid I was introduced to prog-metal with absolutely the wrong record to begin with; Images & Words by Dream Theater, which, to be honest, did nothing to make me want to explore prog-metal any further at the time... It just kind of conformed all the stereotypes I had been reading about prog-metal
 But then early this year I bought Lateralus by Tool and it certainly triggered an interest for a more menacing, heavy prog sound. So now that I have found a more encouraging starting point on my own, I will definitely be adding more prog-metal albums in my collection. (A warning for those who are thinking about going down this path: it seems like you can very easily get addicted to this stuff...!   )Welcome to the darker side of prog, I say!  ------------- I was made to love magic |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:23
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There's nothing wrong with Prog Metal - but there is a certain minority of Prog Metal fans that don't seem to understand that other people have different tastes.
I'm not getting at anyone in particular here - it's just something that's apparent to all: This particular type thinks that Prog metal is the most complex music ever (which it isn't), that using 4/4 or any other common time signature - and using any scale or arpeggio that's either minor pentatonic or dorian is a sure sign of pop music (which it isn't either). Obviously, a piece using Phrygian mode scales in 13/8 with counter rhythms in 23/16 is this type's ideal - but personally speaking, I rarely listen to music for things like this. And I enjoy listening to Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" 
It takes serious talent to create music like Pink Floyd's - in fact, only Pink Floyd have managed it. Simple music that uses space intelligently and within elaborately extended compositions and develops slowly is very hard to write - or everyone would do it. I agree that bands should not be prejudiced against because of their audience or popularity - but the type of Prog Metal fan I described (and many Prog fans too, come to that) will do exactly that. It's sickening that bands get judged on their image instead of their music - but it happens. It is all about the MUSIC and musicianship - as the original post rightly says. 
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: thetick
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:28
First off, welcome to the dark side  .
What's funny is that I am a huge DT fan who thinks Images and Words is
a bit over rated. Metropolis is awesome as is Under Glass Moon and
Learning to Live but I think other albums such as Awake and Metropolis
2000 are better. Tool is also very good. There is a band called Dali's
Dilemma who put out one album called Manifesto for Futurism in 1999. It
is similar to DT but more song related. ------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Posted By: Fritha
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:35
I see -well, maybe, just maybe, I will take another chance with DT at some point then!
And thanks for the Dali's Dilemma-info, will see if I can find any good reviews on this record online...The Dark Side of Prog would be an apt name for a prog-metal compilation ------------- I was made to love magic |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:36
Riverside, Opeth, Pain of salvation and Ayreon. All do very melodic well crafted songs IMO.In Opeth's case you might have some problems with the growling, then again Mikail Akefeld's voice is one of the best in this genre (when not growling that is). These bands don't do as many notes as DT in a minute. Can't help you further with the lack of technique, these bands are topnotch in that respect. |
Posted By: thetick
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:44
I never meant to insinuate that prog metal was the only genre doing this. Yes and Rush were using odd time and wierd scales long before DT. Yes used classical structure as opposed to the blues driven structure of the time. THAT IS WHY THEY WERE DIFFERENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. My point is that one of the things that prog brings to the table is the aspect of odd time and scales which 99% of mainstream does not touch. If we didn't appreciate the musicality we would be listenting to Britney Spears. As a musician this makes the music a bit more fun to listen too. I like figuring out the time signature. I like figuring out the meaning of the lyrics or what the artwork means Does that mean 4/4 is too faux pas? Absolutely not. One of my favorite songs is a 4 chord song by Spock's Beard called June. Simple yet great to listen to. I also have been a big fan of Pink Floyd for many years (have everything they've done). My point is that prog is prog. You may not like a particular flavor. I just get irritated when people just write off a genre because THEY don't like it. As mentioned before, I don't like Genesis but I can appreciate what they did for music and their talent. Too each his own I guess... ------------- Handing sanity to a faceless mind I step though the void into this blind Memory where I see life, death and purity Clocks dream tolls endlessly |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:59
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Nothing's wrong with prog metal - only with some bands that play it, but that's what happens in every genre....
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Space Dimentia
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 17:46
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Honestly I can see where people are coming from, I love prog and prog metal and as a guitarist I admire and aspire to the shredding skills of Jp and Micheal Romeo and others in the field as much as I aspire to play like Dave Gilmour and Alex Lifeson. Yet I to find it boring after a while so my musical tastes shift to either anotehr form of rock or a musical style all together for abit and tehn when Im bored of that I go back.
Yet I am in agreement with Ivan in that there are prog-metal bands out their who 'break the mould' of prog-metal:
Pagan's Mind- they shred abit bar that they write a sort of manageable form of prog-metal that is simple yet complex a very old school prog take on prog-metal, in a way, that I think many non-prog-metal fans I think would enjoy.
Opeth- they write death/doom metal but write it in a very much space-rock/ classic prog style of heavy to soft, heavy to soft. When its heavy Mikeal growls and screams, when its soft he sings. Musically it has losts of things going on, lots of ideas like the bands from the 70's.
Orphaned Land- similar sorts of comments to Opeth except they use trdiational middle-eastern instruments next to western rock/metal intsruments that also add to teh ideas and keeps things interesting.
Tool- lots of ideas, they create emotion atmosphere like many 70's bands.
and then as a final example
Therion- these guys use the pomp and circumstance of 70's prog rock and show it as well by using a chamber choir, soloists as well as the band, a full theatrical show like many 70's bands, there music is complex an they write a sort of classically inspired prog-power metal so like the abnds of teh 70's using another form of music like classical and/or blues and turing it into something differnt.
These guys are just some of the bands in the prog-metal camp that 'break the mould' of a genre headed mainly by Dream Theater and Symphony X. So before you all go saying that calssic prog is boring or prog-metal is nothing more that extremely talented musicains writing over complicated oddysses or marathons that run into metal or wank, wank, widdle, widdle territory think and look again because within both sub-genres there are bands who embody teh 70's just as much as DT or Symphony X or Pink Floyd or Yes but also 'break teh mould' of what a prog-metal song or album should be. ------------- Prog is music for the mind Hear your Orphaned child! Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17 |
Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:16
What and Yes and Genesis didn't try and be prog? ------------- 
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:20
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The problem is you're way too defensive and insecure. ------------- 
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Posted By: GPFR
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:21
Not really... no. ------------- www.myspace.com/hail_peter 
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Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:21
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well i think Prog Metal metal!! its my favorite sub genre, dream theater, opeth, tool, stuff (just look at my reviews, ehehehe).. ^and yeah, im a guitarist as well... its great to listen to songs with virtuosity + great song composition + feeling.. the best thing about progressive metal for me is the feeling, its amazing how they can create such a nice feeling with those crazy solos..
and for me (note the words, "for me") prog metal is the most-un-boring subgenres. Real traditional progressive songs really bore me, with metal elements, the songs will be more energetic and, yeah, stuff like that...
the last thing is, maybe cause i was born in the 90s, so i dont and i dont really mean to explore classic traditional progressive rock. ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg"> 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:23
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^maybe one day you will want to. its very worthwhile.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:25
yea i would like to, my dad has intoduced me to Pink Floyd, Genesis, he loves them, Yes, it was about 3 years ago, and u know, how can 13 years old boy likes Genesis?? maybe ill try... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:28
You have all the tme in the world, you're young, just enjoy what you want. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 20:11
| I love metal. But my veiw is there's no such thing as prog metal. Metal is Metal, Prog Is Prog. |
Posted By: crucify_the_ego
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 20:13
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Personally, I have no quarrel with prog metal. Tool and Opeth are sonically interesting AND have singers with great voices. Dream Theater ... well, I can stand them, when James LaBrie isn't over-emoting every poorly-written syllable. However, lots of prog-metal has too much "metal" and too little "prog". Not most prog metal, but a significant amount. Occasionally, you could accuse Dream Theater of that - they put a metal song in 13/8 time or whatever, and then just start soloing away. However, in the end, it is often difficult for classic-prog lovers to fall for anything as raucous as metal. Growing up in the nineties, as many of us have, we were exposed to very agressive music from a young age, and so have grown tolerant to it (or have rejected it entirely). It's not so easy for those who grew up hearing synth-pop, or Genesis. Some manage to force themselves into the genre, and find they like it, others conclude that they don't. Finally, there's the nature of prog metal. As a genre, prog metal is much, MUCH more rhythmically oriented than ordinary prog rock. The volume of the drums, the distortion of the guitar sound, metal has always been a drummer's genre, at heart. Some people just aren't interested in rhythm at all, and simply want melody. Purer melodies are found in regular non-metallic prog, so that's where they head. Fair enough. Of course, all of these catagories have exceptions, but, in the majority of prog-metal songs, some, if not all of them apply. |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 20:31
so what about progressive rock? what about pop rock? its just 2 elements become 1... ohh and look the subgenres on the main page,, u can find lots of "no such thing ness" ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: xtopher
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 20:58
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thetick, I agree with you completely. If you're a metalhead and you want to listen to more ambitious, melodic, and artsy music, then prog metal is for you. If the other "prog-snobs" can't appreciate it, then that's their loss. I've been thinking... it seems like there's several reasons for people's gravitation towards and repulsion from prog-metal. One probably has to do with age: those of us who lived our formative years in the 90's or 00's are more exposed to a harder, more visceral sound then those who grew up before. Therefore we could be more likely to attain an appreciation of metal due to societal reasons. But the second reason is more interesting to note intellectually: I would be willing to posit a hypothesis that some people like metal because of the tendencies of their personalilty. For example, the reason I find myself attracted to metal (especially metal with extended shredfest solos—exactly the kind of material people on this site like to label "w**kery") is that it is the only music which can match the intensity going on in my own mind. Over the course of the day, I find my thoughts relentlessly shifting from subject to subject, perhaps driven by my own introversion and anxiety. But when I'm listening to prog-metal, for instance, DT, my mind doesn't drift! I find myself completely engrossed by the twists and turns of the music. And thus, what some call "lack of subtlety", I call "exhilarating"!!! How can a DT shredfest be devoid of emotion? It is full of emotion, as it matches the velocity of the racing thoughts and feelings going on in my mind. So for me it would be the exact opposite of what so many describe: music often bores me because it doesn't have enough moments of mania. Unfortunately it seems that many people don't understand this sentiment because it's not normally featured in their personality. So many progheads will bash prog metal  ...there should be a ProgArchives spin off website completely devoted to prog metal. Then everyone would be happy... |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 21:16
10000% agree... ur words represent everyhing... +1 ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 21:30
Just ignore him, he's one of those close minded snobs stuck in a time period. Let 'em rot there. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 21:59
Hold on a second here. Progressive is a prefix to a genre, it isn't a genre itself. That's why we talk about Prog Rock, Prog Metal, Pychodelic Prog Rock, and etc. There's quite a difference between a metal band like Dream Theater or Pain of Salvation and In Flames or Deicide. What is it, that Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation are taking different elements into their music to class it as progressive metal. Metal is not metal, there are different types of metal just as there are different types of rock. -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 22:27
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It's predictable that in a Progressive Rock web site like ProgArchives, most of the people like the 70's bands, because they're classics and the ones that started all of this ...
But I like almost all prog, and I don't have any problem with Prog Metal (DT and Symphony X are AWESOME). I think people that have problems with heavy guitar specially, and high-speed solos, don't like Prog Metal.
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 22:37
Agreed.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 22:52
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The problem for me with Prog Metal is that no matter how prog it is, it's still metal; and while I sometimes like a metal edge (like Porcupine Tree), or perhaps more than just an edge, full-fledged metal is too loud for me. I think that may be the case for many people here, although there are lots of prog-metal fans. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 23:09
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a big thumbs down to prog metal from Micky.... for the simple fact... I don't like the sound of it.... in general it is overproduced with crappy keyboards (show me a Hammond organ anyday, I love the old vintage keyboards.. that is a large part of the prog sound).. .the guitars are completely overdone with effects... and so on. Plus I get the sense that all the emphasis on the technical nature of the music... and somehow writing a great song got lost along the way. I'm a big fan of the old analog sound.. digital isn't always better. I don't waste time here slammiing it, we all like what we like, .... In short that's why I couldn't get into it... and I like metal.. but when in the mood.. I pull out some old Ozzy or Judas Priest. If I want to bang my head silly.. I'll take the classic metal stuff. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 23:10
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I don't bash it, but as of yet, I still don't find it appealing. There is some metal I do like, but most of it is the "classic" type (Black Sabbath). I just don't like the new style of metal. It's the constant gutteral thrumming in the lower registers that really puts me off. It also seems as if the vocalists are just trying to sound metal, rather than truly being emotive. On the advice of a friend, I tried Tool again. I still can't make it through an entire song. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: walrus333
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 23:20
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Although I love prog- metal, especially the stuff from the 80s through mid 90s I find the genre stale nowadays, it seems most bands are copying Dream Theater/Symphony X or playing something that, while it blows everything youve heard in your life away technically, lacks even remotly decent songs. (Devin Townsend and Riverside exceptions to this.) Its sort of sad that there is no band Ive heard out whos first album came out in the last 5 years (again excepting Riverside) that can combine technicality with genuinly good songs like Fates Warning, Dream Theater and Shadow Gallery did in their prime. I would much rather listen to something with an actual song instead of some Julliard Jazz Major showing off his technical abilites. I think thats the reason most peope dislike prog-metal nowadays. Anyway at least the main body of metal, is getting much more intelligent nowadays with bands such as Asmegin, Arcturus and Sunn 0))) ------------- If anyone knows where I can get a copy of some Flute and Voice (Indo-Prog/Raga Rock) albums please PM me! Many thanks! |
Posted By: blue powder 777
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 03:13
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I think people are forgetting that music is entirely based upon taste, a very important point especially in a genre as diverse as prog. In fact, progressive music is not a style of music rather an approach to music even if there are particular sounds we define as "prog." Prog metal is simply another evolution of prog, for better or worse, that stands as a testament to the power of progressive music. There is certainly something for everyone. Prog metal may be your cup of tea, and maybe it isn't. But don't attack the merit of a type of music simply because you don't like it. As purists we all fall into the trap of degrading another style of music that does not fit our particular tastes. After all, we all listen to prog because we like a little diversity from the standard pop radio mass produced sound. Does that mean that music on the radio is bad? Absolutely not. If it were such "bad" music it would not have such a large audience. I personally don't care for pop music, but that is my personal taste. Prog metal can come off as to aggressive and technically oriented to some "prog-snobs" and that's okay. Some people like the sound, others don't. And attacking Dream Theater for being too technical? One could pose the same argument for the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Like the sound or hate it, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that we respect each others musical tastes even if it does not conform with our idea of "prog" or "good music". All of these groups are here because enough people consider them progressive but more importantly people like them. We could give 100 different definitions of prog, all correct, but each an individual definition within the broad scope. All I am saying is respect the music and the opinions of others. That said, you don't have to like it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 03:32
Symph Prog specialists should stick together, therefore I endorse everything you said  . I'm not a big Prog-Metal expert, but what I've heard so far hasn't impressed me too much - with some notable exceptions. For instance, I'd like to explore Tool's output, which intrigued me much more than anything I've heard by DT so far. I also love Queensryche, which I got to know right after the release of their "Queen of the Reich" EP. That said, like my partner in crime Micky, I'd rather listen to classic metal, or even bands like Metallica or Megadeth (I was listening to "Rust in Peace" yesterday, and it smokes!) - and I can't wait to see Maiden again in December. It's not the heaviness of the sound that puts me off, rather the pointless noodling and (often) poor songwriting. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 03:50
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I personally don't think much of prog metal, with the odd exception
perhaps. I like it hard and fast at times, but there is an overdose of
that in prog metal, and I quickly get bored of it. Another reason, and
perhaps the most important one, is that despite all its hardness and
fastness the music sounds way too "clean" for me; it is not really
"dirty" (at least not what I have heard of prog metal). It may have to
do with modern production methods (especially the sound of the bass),
but that's why I personally stick to "Sea Shanties" by High Tide or the
likes if I want it hard and fast.
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 05:22
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I got into prog metal in the 90`s because I was tired waiting for bands like Yes and Kansas to get their prog "attitude" back together again . I found out about a band called Fates Warning and also Images and Words by Dream Theater had just been released . I knew that in the 90`s prog metal was the direction my tastes wanted to go . Unfortunately in the early 90`s great new prog bands like Echolyn were very hard to find in record stores in my country , there was no internet nothing to refer to only friends who shared similar tastes and my local CD store Radical Records (who seem to be very pro active with prog metal items) So for me prog metal kept the progressive dream alive during a time when the world was not as connected as it is today. These days I explore modern prog and I also discovered 70`s prog that I missed and its all thanks to the internet. Prog Metal is progressive rock in evolution
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:17
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Posted By: blue powder 777
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:34
It just depends on the particular band. I don't call bands like Nightwish or Kamelot progressive but rather straight metal bands with the occasional "progressive" moment. I agree that the term "progressive metal" has been misused to a large extent. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:36
If only people would listen to Heaven's Cry ... every thread that I start about them quickly dies away. Look them up on my homepage if you're interested, there are two complete songs available on the homepage of their label (DVS). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:41
Do you really think bands like Pain of salvation and Opeth are very much like regular music? I don't. |
Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:47
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I don't think anything is wrong with progressive metal actually... but than again, I also don't think there's anything wrong with art rock, symphonic prog, prog electronic, space rock, post-rock... etc ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:49
No offense, but that's a perfect example of prog snobbism. It also happened to me before: If a person listens mostly to prog, including or maybe even focusing on really complex prog (Jazz-Fusion, RIO, Avant-Prog etc) then that person sometimes forgets how simple non-prog, commercial music can be. And then that person might confuse "light" prog with non-prog. I suggest to you to listen To Nightwish - Once and then to Evanescence - Fallen. Then tell me that Nightwish - Once is not progressive compared to that album. And then consider that there is even much more simple metal than Evanescence ... What I'm trying to say here is that exclusively listening to prog can make you blind to what real non-prog sounds like ... and that makes it really difficult to judge bands/albums which are not that complex but still prog, or a little bit progressive but still non-prog. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 06:53
But then; The Answer Lies Within - that's just so bad even for what it tries to be: a Diane Warren Power ballad. The bridge and chorus of These Walls could go well with any Hard Rock band in the world - too bad, because the rest is good. I Walk Beside You sounds like an overworked U2 song - all the boredom with twice the ideas. The chorus is criminally bad except for a bit of chordal play underneath the melody. The rest of the album actually manages to mostly stay out of those traps, so I usually start at Panic Attack and listen from there. -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:04
First of all I am not stuck in anytime period nor am I a snob and closed minded. I happen to listen to a lot of metal such as Tool, Opeth, etc. I own over 2000 prog albums/Cds dating from 1965 to 2006. If anything I am very knowledgeable about Prog and Metal music just isn't prog, There is no fusion of genres in metal it's just one called metal. IMO prog is a fusion of genres to create an original sound. That is also why there are no sub genres either. Humans make things complicated.
"I am the voice of reason against a howling mob"
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:06
And you want to discuss Prog Metal?  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Terra Australis
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:23
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The problem with Genres such as 'Prog Metal' is that they are to restictive. Sure they give an indication of the sort of music, but only an indication. Every genre has bands that 'don`t fit the genre' anyway. Forget the Genre listen to the music. I like music from all genres, not because the bands are in a genre but because the music interests me. In addition not all bands cds are of the same standard or interest! Forget the bands name, listen to the music. I would rather discuss good music by any band than worry about genres. They are only indicators of what people 'might' expect. ------------- Allomerus. Music with progressive intent. http://allomerus.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - http://allomerus.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28
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^ the problem is that there is so much music out there ... without genres you're lost. Genres can be helpful for finding new stuff that might interest you. If you look at it from that angle, "Prog Metal" is far from restrictive ... sub genres are more helpful. Of course you have to be careful not to let these genres limit you ... I try to be obsessive with categorisation AND disregard the genres at the same time, and it works fine.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28
 AGREED |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:39
What are you talking about
 ?Have you ever heard a musician blatantly TRYING to be part of a style? Or a musician blatantly TRYING to be another musician? Such as Nico Stufano trying to be Allan Holdsworth or Katsu Ohta trying to be Yngwie Malmsteen? These guys really sound VERY similar to the people they want to be - they must have spent months, if not years, analyzing every aspect of their music to death. Now can you honestly tell me which prog metal band sounds like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson or Gentle Giant? There isn't one that does, for the simple reason that prog metal bands DON'T TRY to be prog (in the '70s meaning of the word). If they did, they would have been able to reproduce the sound and structure of '70s music, if not the spirit. And they have NEITHER the sound NOR the structure, not to mention the spirit. They may have a similarly sounding riff here and there, maybe some rip-offs as well, but for the most part, they are VERY different, for one, they're usually (not always) significantly simpler. They're somewhat influenced by prog, but they ARE NOT trying to be prog. Writing epics is not the same as trying to be prog. Making your music technical is not the same as trying to be prog. They are only prog insofar as they belong to a genre christened by some music journalists as prog metal. Same goes for neo prog. Prog metal and neo prog ARE NOT blatantly trying to be prog - only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:40
I'll take a listen Mike.... lord knows I don't need another musical obsession to vie for limited resources and limited listening time hahahhah but I'll take a listen to those samples and share my two cents on them...not today though.... just on for a few minutes this morning... todays my son's birthday...so I have to endure the 3rd level of hell trying to keep up with 12 over-caffinated, overly excited kids... at a damn roller skating rink.... God give me strength to not bust my ass on roller skates.. I don't think I've been on them since I was a teenager hahaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:45
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:48
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:49
TFK are surely not trying to be retro - that would be Anglagard or Wobbler. "wedding Radio Rock to retro Prog" ... yes, I think that begins to describe what TFK are doing. But they're also adding many other influences (Jazz for a start). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:51
You need to listen to these albums as much as you need to listen to any other prog album in order to grasp what others see in them. If you choose to dismiss them after one listen - that's your decision, but then you have to admit that you don't really know them. Surely there's a mainstream metal influence in "Prog Metal" ... wouldn't be called Prog Metal if there was no metal in it, now would it? The fact that of all DT albums you pick Octavarium as the only one being worth your while tells me that you simply don't like Metal. What other reason could there be for you choosing an average album over masterpieces? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:53
I agree about Progmetal not trying to be (70's) prog. Seems to me though that Marillon (Neo prog) is influenced by Genesis as least as much as TFK is by Yes. I don't have the slightest problem with that btw. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:54
Fair enough - the instrumental sections sound very retro, though.
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:00
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:03
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:10
I like most of these bands too, but the list still don't explains why you would prefer Octavarium to Awake. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:23
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I haven't heard Awake, which could be it. I've heard I&W, Scenes
and Six Degrees. Mostly one or two listens at a friend's house and with
some supposed standout tracks from the first two on a mix tape
(remember them?). I quickly concluded that I shouldn't waste my time on
trying to get past the metallity, since it's such an intrinsic element
of what they do. I bought Octavarium cheap because a colleague of mine reacted to my "Best discoveries of 2005" list, which had PoS on it, and said that I really should give DT another chance, and he pointed to Octavarium specifically. The opening track was a pleasant surprise, whereas it was followed by a bit of a...let's just say "acid reflux" moment. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:26
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Then you should try to pick up Awake somewhere (In Germany they're currently selling it for 7 EUR in local stores) and see if my recommendation is useful. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:30
IMO Octavarium songs are less progressive, means they are less complicated, odd time sig, sick solos stuff.. Just for example, the answer lies within, i walk beside u, these walls, they are more into "light-prog". on the other hand, awake songs are very "strange", means very prog. For me, sometimes i really into, i mean 120% into prog songs but sometimes i enjoy a bit of relaxation...
------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:36
I dont know you, but I think we get along just fine... Its all matter of taste...but seriously, the way you put it feels like some prog fans are sendind hate mail to the metal section...a bit over the top, dont you think? ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 10:09
i dont think those bands are very metal though
Aaron
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 12:31
Opeth and PoS not metal...
Whatever. Agalloch, Anathema and In the Woods... aren't very technical and play very cool music.
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 13:18
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Some prog metal albums I suggest for those in doubt about the genre: Pain of Salvation - Entropia White Willow - Storm Season (yes, it is prog metal to my ears) Indukti - S.U.S.A.R. Tool - Lateralus These albums may need at least 5 listens. Entropia didn't do much for me the first 2 or 3 listens, but it's clicked with me now and it's one of my favourite prog metal albums. Get back to me once you've heard them... -------------   
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 14:49
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I dislike the "duh" prog-metal like Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation. I'm qualified to say this because I have repeatedly tried to find something enjoyable about it, and failed horribly. However, I like plenty of inventive metal bands who don't consider themselves progressive. Not Opeth or Katatonia (or their clones), but bands like Meshuggah, Voivod, Esoteric, (very experimental and thoughtful funeral doom) !T.O.O.H.! and Martyr (both technical, progressive death metal bands that go easy on the harsh vocals - plenty of solo time.) So for those of you who disdain the genre because it's all souless virtuosity, explore the side that isn't. Also, Kayo Dot are exceptional, but with their latest release I feel they've slipped out of metal and into somewhere rather more jazz-rock/avantgarde. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 16:01
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I agree about Dream Theater being "duh", because I don't find anything exciting about them either. But Pain of Salvation are a completely different band and not "duh" in any way. Very inventive, clean vocals and experimental. Some of their stuff borders on Avant Garde on occasions. Very enjoyable band. Which PoS have you tried laplace? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 16:04
it is a bit over the top.... there are a fair number of people who it appears don't care for it, but the vast majority have better things to do... like talk things things we DO like.. than talk about what we don't. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 18:36
Imagine what a boring place this would be if we all liked everything... You'd get topics filled with: "Oh Selling England is smashing" "It's jolly good" "Superbly widdly" etc  ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:09
LOL! but lets try, i like prog metal, what do u like guys??
 ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:14
hahaha I agree... I think slamming other people's tastes is wrong of course... but the best conversations come, when both sides can handle it of course hahah, out of disagreement. I know I've had some that were just down right fun... and actually got into some of them early on here.. and was a large reason why I moved over to this site from another one. Very smart people who can disagree without it becoming a flame war. Was nice to see no one take umbrage to my views on prog-metal. Never said it stinks... it just isn't what I like prog for, and I didn't like the 'sound' of what I had heard. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:20
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so this means this thread is over?? huhuu, i love confrontation,, heehehe ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: spacecraft
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:26
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How is heavy metal progressive? ------------- To Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit our cause, casting our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought. |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:27
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^thats alright, its progressive metal subgenres which the metal element is heavier... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:29
hahahha.... there's lot of time and opportunities for that.... try telling Ivan that Kansas is AOR... try telling me that ELO is disco-rock... or, of course, try telling a Rush fan that there is any fault or imperfection at all in Rush. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:31
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hey micky... ive got something to tell ya..
ELO IS DISCO ROCK, take it or leave it... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:34
hahahah... wrong thread.... got to PROG RELATED hahahahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:36
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hahaahha, tell me something bad about DT, then we can continue this ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg">
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:36
That's it! Tony, release the hounds!
  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:52
hahahah... I've still got bite marks on my ass the last time he let slip the dogs of war hahahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mghiotti
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 02:27
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This querelle is for some reasons the same as the one between Beatles
and Rolling Stones, with the due proportions. The beauty and intrinsic
power of music and in general of art is that it goes under the
subjective opinion of people, coming from different social, cultural
and "political" backgrounds. This is something we should never forget. So, back to the issue. I'm very proud of being a fan of progressive music, no matter what distinction we make in the sub-genres. Catagories were something Hegel was profundly against, and being a marxist I feel somehow very close to what the great german philosopher said. It may sound pedantic and tautological, but to me what really matters is if the music is full of passion, whether it gives me strong feelings and vibration along my backbone. If some band is doing so, I do not care if it's a prog metal band, electronic, hip-hop or latin. My first experience with prog music was with "Live at the Marque", I remember that day: I was standing on the bus, heading to high school. A friend of mine passed to me that album the day before and so I put the tape in my portable player and I listened to it. I still remember my reaction: it was like "what the hell are these guys doing?" I was shocked, just paralyzed by "Metropolis". Back then, I had grown up with Depeche Mode and The Cure, Morrissey and Chopin. It's not then so difficult to imagine how shocking for a guy like me listening to that type of music was. After so many years, if I came across prog scene is mainly due to them and I must thank them for that. Yet, in the process of getting more and more in contact with other prog bands, I discovered one element that DT had been missing after the release of Falling into infinity: passion and "romanticism". Do not misunderstand me: I do not expect DT to become Chopin or Tchaikovsky, but I haven't felt and experienced the same thrill in listening to them any more since a change of seasons. There is nothing wrong with Prog metal, it's not the type and style of music which is wrong, it's the way you play it which makes the difference. Why do Symphony X shake me from the very bottom and DT don't, at least not any more? The answer is simple: DT chose to be part of the mainstream, consciuosly and voluntarily: but for any action there is always a reaction equal and opposite in magnitude and verse. My reaction was naturally a profund rejection to that choice of being and so here's my answer to your post Prog metal is just as good as all the others: the music is what matters to me, the outcome, the result, the actual making of it, not how you define or label it. DT stopped being a very good band for a specific purpose, to become more popular and attract a broader and larger number of people. It always happened this way, it happened to Genesis, to Yes, to Rush, to anybody. Only Fripp has remained honest to himself and that is way he is the most influential man in the world for "out-of-the-mainstream" prog rock, and most probably the poorest of all!!! |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 02:40
It never happened to Hammill either. Or to Daevid Allen, or Steve Hackett. Or Embryo. Or Guru Guru. Or Robert Wyatt. I could continue the list with a lot of others, if necessary. Some artists just happen to maintain an artistic integrity. It is usually commercial success that brings the downfall; thanks be to the Goddess that some artists have not had it (and have not searched for it either). ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: hamham
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 05:17
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as long as people remember that DT (for better or worse) does not represent the entire genre then it's okay :) |
Posted By: DrGoon
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 05:22
 Progressive just the name of a genre, it doesn't mean the music actually progressed from what went before. Yes it does. No it doesn't. Yes it does. Is this the five minute argument or the full half hour? |