What is so wrong with Prog metal

AtLossForWords wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It's not just Metallica's slow numbers that are proggy - but that's a whole new discussion and largely dependent on how you define what is and what is not proggy.   I like every other prog metal fan define prog as technical guitar solos and unisons with soft intros and keybord frills.

seriously.... is that how you all define it?


Edited by micky - June 06 2006 at 19:57

imoeng wrote: ^ no way dude.. ive said many times... its just for example.... (look back at my post about sick time sig and crazy solos)

whew... hahahhah.... I haven't as of yet sat down with a beer and a cigarette to catch up with the last day or so with this thread.  Thanks

micky wrote: AtLossForWords wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It's not just Metallica's slow numbers that are proggy - but that's a whole new discussion and largely dependent on how you define what is and what is not proggy.   I like every other prog metal fan define prog as technical guitar solos and unisons with soft intros and keybord frills.               seriously.... is that how you all define it?

micky wrote: AtLossForWords wrote: micky wrote: AtLossForWords wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It's not just Metallica's slow numbers that are proggy - but that's a whole new discussion and largely dependent on how you define what is and what is not proggy.   I like every other prog metal fan define prog as technical guitar solos and unisons with soft intros and keybord frills.               seriously.... is that how you all define it?   Don't underestimate the meaning of a wink. hahahah... as long as you don't underestimate the ignorance of the 'snobbish' symphonic folk hahahha

micky wrote: Jeff Schu wrote:   Damn Snobphonic Prog fans!!!  Think that everything needs a mellotron or keyboards in order to be proggressive. not progressive.... prog hahah

AtLossForWords wrote: Are we getting into a thread of modern metal sounds per genre now? Hence the conversation has gone to first modern metal album to what's different about early modern metal albums.

I believe it was you who raised the question about the earliest "modern sounding" albums - a topic that is both interesting and related.

AtLossForWords wrote: I've already said I thought Sabbath's lyrics were their biggest influence on modern metal. We may be closer to understanding each other.

Indeed - but it's actually Sabbath's music that is their biggest influence. I merely said that there were plenty of other things about Sabbath that were influential too.

AtLossForWords wrote: I like every other prog metal fan define prog as technical guitar solos and unisons with soft intros and keybord frills.

You may jest, but there are plenty that seem to - if the reviews are anything to go by.

AtLossForWords wrote: Yeah I suppose metal bands almost entirely use diatonic scales unless they use pentatonic right?

But you're still missing the point that Diatonic harmony is different to diatonic melodies (scales).

AtLossForWords wrote: It was you who said metal is almost entirely diatonic. I just tried to build an arguement off it.

OK, crash course in Diatonic harmony coming up:

Diatonic harmony is created from major or minor key scales that have 7 notes, and two (DIA) tonal bases - the root or tonic, and the 5th or dominant.

The two pull at each other because of the natural physical forces of soundwaves that are exactly (or nearly exactly - but let's not discuss equal temperament!) equidistant - ie the 5th has a wavelength that is half of the octave.

Consider the blues - since that is where metal came from:

A typical 12-bar blues pattern will use triads based on the tonic, the subdominant and the dominant - using all 7 notes of the diatonic scale.

HOWEVER: melodies, including solos, use the pentatonic scale - a scale that has 5 notes that are of equal importance, but is still rooted in diatonic harmony, since the 5th exerts a natural pull on the tonic.


Confusion arises when musicians (typically guitarists) start talking about diatonic scales and make a distinction between them and pentatonic scales - the same goes for modes, but more of that later.

Here, guitarists are talking about melody - which is but one reason why I keep saying that it's important to bear in mind all 5 elements of music rather than concentrate too heavily on one.

AtLossForWords wrote: Actually many straight up metal band rarely play in anything but E Minor with a shift to B Mixolydian.

And so on to modes.

I won't define them - for brevity!

But you're still talking about melody, and I believe (with all respect) that most "straight up" metal bands use mixolydian mode for their solos and melodies simply because it feels good - not because they understand the use of modes.

If they did, then the harmony would be modal too - but typically only jazz bands or jazz-influenced musicians use modal harmony.

Sometimes metal bands use modes only partially - but in the great scheme of things this gets cancelled out.

For example, Metallica's Orion appears to use the pattern you describe (with an upwards shift of the 3rd which destabilises the harmony) - if you play the rhythm guitar part. But the bass fills in the root, so the true modal sense is lost.

AtLossForWords wrote: Dream Theater are of course an exception to this.

Again, I'm not completely convinced of their use of modes, as the overall feel of the harmony is largely Dorian - the use of modes seems largely limited to the solo work (melody) - but I'll take another listen to confirm this.
    
    

Edited by Certif1ed - June 07 2006 at 04:31

I've never been much into Saxon ... but I'll listen to the song. 

Diatonic / Pentatonic / Ginandtonic


What the f*** ??      



This is turning into Open Fecking University   



Would we be talking like this over a few beers ?? - no doubt someone would mention Star Trek (which I love) and some nerd would start spouting Klingon at some point !! This thread is disappearing up its own arse.

See, this is why Prog-Metal needs more kitties. 

Of course I blame those pentatonic scales rooted in diatonic harmony with their incorporation of seconds and sixths ....... bummer !!






   
     

Edited by horza - June 07 2006 at 17:55