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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Teaflax wrote:

Octavarium is the only Dream Theater album I've spent some time on

And you want to discuss Prog Metal? Confused

Edited by Xenoxen - June 03 2006 at 07:34

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28

^ the problem is that there is so much music out there ... without genres you're lost. Genres can be helpful for finding new stuff that might interest you. If you look at it from that angle, "Prog Metal" is far from restrictive ... sub genres are more helpful. Of course you have to be careful not to let these genres limit you ... I try to be obsessive with categorisation AND disregard the genres at the same time, and it works fine.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:28

Terra Australis wrote:

The problem with Genres such as 'Prog Metal' is that they are to restictive. Sure they give an indication of the sort of music, but only an indication. Every genre has bands that 'don`t fit the genre' anyway.

Forget the Genre listen to the music.

I like music from all genres, not because the bands are in a genre but because the music interests me. In addition not all bands cds are of the same standard or interest!

Forget the bands name, listen to the music.

I would rather discuss good music by any band than worry about genres. They are only indicators of what people 'might' expect.

AGREED

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:39

The Lost Chord wrote:

The whole point of prog is to take music to a level that usually takes a focused ear to appreciate

i just dont like bands that are blatantly TRYING to be "prog"...annoys me

What are you talking about

Have you ever heard a musician blatantly TRYING to be part of a style? Or a musician blatantly TRYING to be another musician? Such as Nico Stufano trying to be Allan Holdsworth or Katsu Ohta trying to be Yngwie Malmsteen? These guys really sound VERY similar to the people they want to be - they must have spent months, if not years, analyzing every aspect of their music to death. Now can you honestly tell me which prog metal band sounds like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson or Gentle Giant? There isn't one that does, for the simple reason that prog metal bands DON'T TRY to be prog (in the '70s meaning of the word). If they did, they would have been able to reproduce the sound and structure of '70s music, if not the spirit. And they have NEITHER the sound NOR the structure, not to mention the spirit. They may have a similarly sounding riff here and there, maybe some rip-offs as well, but for the most part, they are VERY different, for one, they're usually (not always) significantly simpler. They're somewhat influenced by prog, but they ARE NOT trying to be prog. Writing epics is not the same as trying to be prog. Making your music technical is not the same as trying to be prog. They are only prog insofar as they belong to a genre christened by some music journalists as prog metal. Same goes for neo prog. Prog metal and neo prog ARE NOT blatantly trying to be prog - only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:40

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

micky wrote:

a big thumbs down to prog metal from Micky....

for the simple fact... I don't like the sound of it.... in general it is overproduced with crappy keyboards (show me a Hammond organ anyday, I love the old vintage keyboards.. that is a large part of the prog sound).. .the guitars are completely overdone with effects... and so on. Plus I get the sense that all the emphasis on the technical nature of the music... and somehow writing a great song got lost along the way. I'm a big fan of the old analog sound.. digital isn't always better. I don't waste time here slammiing it, we all like what we like, .... In short that's why I couldn't get into it... and I like metal.. but when in the mood.. I pull out some old Ozzy or Judas Priest. If I want to bang my head silly.. I'll take the classic metal stuff.

Symph Prog specialists should stick together, therefore I endorse everything you said Wink

. I'm not a big Prog-Metal expert, but what I've heard so far hasn't impressed me too much - with some notable exceptions. For instance, I'd like to explore Tool's output, which intrigued me much more than anything I've heard by DT so far. I also love Queensryche, which I got to know right after the release of their "Queen of the Reich" EP. That said, like my partner in crime Micky, I'd rather listen to classic metal, or even bands like Metallica or Megadeth (I was listening to "Rust in Peace" yesterday, and it smokes!) - and I can't wait to see Maiden again in December. It's not the heaviness of the sound that puts me off, rather the pointless noodling and (often) poor songwriting.

If only people would listen to Heaven's Cry ... every thread that I start about them quickly dies away. Look them up on my homepage if you're interested, there are two complete songs available on the homepage of their label (DVS).

I'll take a listen Mike.... lord knows I don't need another musical obsession to vie for limited resources and limited listening time hahahhah Wink

but I'll take a listen to those samples and share my two cents on them...

not today though.... just on for a few minutes this morning... todays my son's birthday...so I have to endure the 3rd level of hell trying to keep up with 12 over-caffinated, overly excited kids... at a damn roller skating rink.... God give me strength to not bust my ass on roller skates.. I don't think I've been on them since I was a teenager hahaha

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:45

Visitor13 wrote:

only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.

If TFK are indeed trying to be pure retro rather than wedding Radio Rock to retro Prog, they really are way off the mark.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:48

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Octavarium is the only Dream Theater album I've spent some time on

And you want to discuss Prog Metal? Confused

Doesn't mean I haven't heard more, just that I've dismissed it because of the often large amount of mainstream Metal influence. I'm not going to torture myself by listening ten times to something I don't like and obviously won't. YMMV, obviously.

Edited by Teaflax - June 03 2006 at 07:56

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:49

Teaflax wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:

only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.

If TFK are indeed trying to be pure retro rather than wedding Radio Rock to retro Prog, they really are way off the mark.

TFK are surely not trying to be retro - that would be Anglagard or Wobbler. "wedding Radio Rock to retro Prog" ... yes, I think that begins to describe what TFK are doing. But they're also adding many other influences (Jazz for a start).

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:51

Teaflax wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Octavarium is the only Dream Theater album I've spent some time on

And you want to discuss Prog Metal? Confused

Doesn't mean I haven't heard more, just that I've dismissed it because of the often large amount amount of mainstream Metal influence. I'm not going to torture myself by listening ten times to soemthing I don't like and obviously won't. YMMV, obviously.

You need to listen to these albums as much as you need to listen to any other prog album in order to grasp what others see in them. If you choose to dismiss them after one listen - that's your decision, but then you have to admit that you don't really know them.

Surely there's a mainstream metal influence in "Prog Metal" ... wouldn't be called Prog Metal if there was no metal in it, now would it? The fact that of all DT albums you pick Octavarium as the only one being worth your while tells me that you simply don't like Metal. What other reason could there be for you choosing an average album over masterpieces? Wink

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 03 2006 at 07:54

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:53

Visitor13 wrote:

Prog metal and neo prog ARE NOT blatantly trying to be prog - only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.

I agree about Progmetal not trying to be (70's) prog. Seems to me though that Marillon (Neo prog) is influenced by Genesis as least as much as TFK is by Yes. I don't have the slightest problem with that btw.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 07:54

Teaflax wrote:

Visitor13 wrote:

only retro prog (e.g. The Flower Kings or Wobbler) is trying to do that.

If TFK are indeed trying to be pure retro rather than wedding Radio Rock to retro Prog, they really are way off the mark.

Fair enough - the instrumental sections sound very retro, though.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:00

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The fact that of all DT albums you pick Octavarium as the only one being worth your while tells me that you simply don't like Metal.

Not regular Metal, no. I'm a big fan of Faith No More, Therapy?, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Audioslave, Eleven, Helmet, Queens of the Stone Age, Kyuss, Metallica, etc. Bands that are often heavy and fast, but use a different tonal/harmonic palette than regular Metal.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:03

Visitor13 wrote:

Fair enough - the instrumental sections sound very retro, though.

Indeed they do, which is what makes it so galling when those smarmy vocal sections come in. I really wish I could just dimiss TFK (and SB) out of hand and just file them under "bands I don't like", but there's so much that is excellent about them that the less adventurous sections stand out like the sore thumbs they are.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:10

Teaflax wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The fact that of all DT albums you pick Octavarium as the only one being worth your while tells me that you simply don't like Metal.

I like most of these bands too, but the list still don't explains why you would prefer Octavarium to Awake.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:23

I haven't heard Awake, which could be it. I've heard I&W, Scenes and Six Degrees. Mostly one or two listens at a friend's house and with some supposed standout tracks from the first two on a mix tape (remember them?). I quickly concluded that I shouldn't waste my time on trying to get past the metallity, since it's such an intrinsic element of what they do.

I bought Octavarium cheap because a colleague of mine reacted to my "Best discoveries of 2005" list, which had PoS on it, and said that I really should give DT another chance, and he pointed to Octavarium specifically. The opening track was a pleasant surprise, whereas it was followed by a bit of a...let's just say "acid reflux" moment.

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:26

Then you should try to pick up Awake somewhere (In Germany they're currently selling it for 7 EUR in local stores) and see if my recommendation is useful. Wink

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 08:30

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Teaflax wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The fact that of all DT albums you pick Octavarium as the only one being worth your while tells me that you simply don't like Metal.

I like most of these bands too, but the list still don't explains why you would prefer Octavarium to Awake.

IMO Octavarium songs are less progressive, means they are less complicated, odd time sig, sick solos stuff.. Just for example, the answer lies within, i walk beside u, these walls, they are more into "light-prog". on the other hand, awake songs are very "strange", means very prog. For me, sometimes i really into, i mean 120% into prog songs but sometimes i enjoy a bit of relaxation...

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 09:36

thetick wrote:

I read a lot of prog forums on the web and I get the same thing over and over, prog metal sucks blah blah blah. The whole point of prog is to take music to a level that usually takes a focused ear to appreciate. The music that Dream Theater makes blows away ANYTHING being produced in the "rock" realm today. Would you rather listen to Nickelback or Disturbed? Most of the bands mentioned in these discussions are not even together anymore (e.g. Genesis, ELP, Floyd). It takes serious talent to play DT, Synphony X, Dali's Dilemma, Shadow Gallery , etc. and many of the musicians that play now could hang with the musicians of the golden days of prog. I would even argue that DT is doing more to further prog than most of the neo-synphonic-classic prog bands are. They did concepts album, long songs and make mince-meat out of odd time more than most other prog bands out there. If you don't like heavy guitars just say so and be done with it. But to dismiss bands like DT just because they may be more popular than some obscure French band is silly. Yes and Rush are more mainstream than DT is! Now I will tell you I am a huge fan of Rsh (it's how I learned to play drums), Yes (How awesome is Close to the Edge and The Gates of Delerium) and Jethro Tull. However, I can't stand Genesis. I think they are boring. I listened to several of their CD's and nearly fell asleep. To me Marillion isn't much better. I think a lot of the discussion of which type of prog is better stems from the demographic viewpoint of the writer. I am 34 and grew up on heavy metal but still love Rush, Yes Floyd and Tull. I am a card-carrying member of the prog-snob community and I find it silly that people who like prog just dismiss other who happen to like a "different-kind" of prog. The moral of the story is kids, "Can't we all just get along?" Prog to me is my outlet from the crap being played in the real world. Let's just appreciate to musicianship and creative outlet prog gives to all of us. But I know if we did that there would be no reason for forums. So let the flaming begin. Smile

I dont know you, but I think we get along just fine...
Its all matter of taste...but seriously, the way you put it feels like some prog fans are sendind hate mail to the metal section...a bit over the top, dont you think? Wink

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 10:09

Dirk wrote:

Aaron wrote:

name some prog metal bands that lack technique and focus on songwriting, i would actually like to check bands like that out

Aaron

Riverside, Opeth, Pain of salvation and Ayreon. All do very melodic well crafted songs IMO.In Opeth's case you might have some problems with the growling, then again Mikail Akefeld's voice is one of the best in this genre (when not growling that is). These bands don't do as many notes as DT in a minute. Can't help you further with the lack of technique, these bands are topnotch in that respect.

i dont think those bands are very metal though

Aaron

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Posted: June 03 2006 at 12:31

Aaron wrote: