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Easy Livin 
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 Topic: Genesis – Jumping the shark
Posted: July 14 2004 at 15:19 |
Some of you will probably be familiar with the website jumptheshark.com . As explained on that site, jumping the shark is " a defining moment when you know that your favourite television programme has reached its peak. That instant that you know from now on…it’s all downhill."
So for Television programme read Band. I thought it would be best to do this in the form of a poll, if successful others bands could follow (Yes are an obvious candidate). I have however chosen to go with Genesis first, as there have been many defining moments in their career.
My own vote here has gone to when "Duke" was released. While Duke wasn’t a bad album, it had a number of signs that the band were moving away from their prog roots, towards something I didn’t much care for.
(Why do I always spot spelling gaffs after posting, Trick of the trial indeed!)
Edited by Easy Livin
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richardh
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Posted: July 14 2004 at 15:29 |
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Agree with Easy Livin's comments.For me Duke is the first Genesis CD (chronologically speaking) where the skip button comes in really handy.
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James Lee
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Posted: July 14 2004 at 17:31 |
Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins...but I really liked Trick and W&W, almost as much as Lamb, so it's not totally Gabriel either...
I can't decide, but it's pretty funny that there's ads for shark cartilage at the bottom of the page.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 14 2004 at 21:50 |
 Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins. |
Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, and Anthony Phillips has a very similar dark atmospheric sound to Steve Hackett, I always thought Phillips is just an alias for Steve Hackett 
Now seriously, Trespass sounds more like a Hackett album than Selling England.
Now about the question IMHO ATTW3 is pop crap and Duke is not much better, so my vote goes to the moment when Hackett left, honestly I don't care for any later Genesis release, not even Seconds Out (well I like S.O. a bit) due to the criminal mutilation of some Hackett parts.
The magic left with good old Steve.
Iván
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Marcelo
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 01:08 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
| Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins. |
Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, and Anthony Phillips has a very similar dark atmospheric sound to Steve Hackett, I always thought Phillips is just an alias for Steve Hackett
Now seriously, Trespass sounds more like a Hackett album than Selling England.
Now about the question IMHO ATTW3 is pop crap and Duke is not much better, so my vote goes to the moment when Hackett left, honestly I don't care for any later Genesis release, not even Seconds Out (well I like S.O. a bit) due to the criminal mutilation of some Hackett parts.
The magic left with good old Steve.
Iván
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I totally agree. And I would say that, with "And Then There Were Three", a fantastic part of progressive rock history was criminally mutilated. 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 01:50 |
Marcelo said:
I totally agree. And I would say that, with "And Then There Were Three", a fantastic part of progressive rock history was criminally mutilated.  |
Yes, after W&W everything was downhill, when ATTW3 was released they didn't jumped the shark, they jumped the whale because the difference with W&W is incredible, they should have changed the artistic name.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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richardh
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 02:32 |
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I've never had a problem with 'And Then There Were Three'.Just because it's not full of 10 minute tracks and mystical imagery doesn't mean it's bad.Much of the intensity was still intact at that time.Also Banks and Rutherford as writers were more important to Genesis on ATOTT and WAW than Hackett who at that time was making less of a writing contribution to the band as he later admitted.That was one of his main reasons for leaving.Furthermore Genesis probably peaked as a live band around about 1980 when there was no Hackett.Did they really miss Hackett so much? I think the influence of new wave music at the time had more to do with the Genesis change of musical direction than Hackett leaving.That's just my 2 pennies worth though.
Edited by richardh
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 11:04 |
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Quote:
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I've never had a problem with 'And Then There Were Three’. Just because it's not full of 10 minute tracks and mystical imagery doesn't mean it's bad. |
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Nope, I believe it's bad because the music is mediocre, full of pop tracks and a piece of cheese as Follow You, Follow Me which only purpose was to reach a top ten single.
It's also bad because they totally forgot about artistic music for a commercial career, which is not bad if you're a member of Duran Duran.
It's bad because they never cared about the loyal fans who followed the band when nobody liked them, and Mr. Collins answered clearly I don't care about them.
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Also Banks and Rutherford as writers were more important to Genesis on ATOTT and WAW than Hackett who at that time was making less of a writing contribution to the band as he later admitted |
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That's partially true, Steve made his biggest contribution in W&W, but he wasn't let to do more, they preferred the soft pop music and the search of the big bucks than musical quality and Mr. Hackett wanted something more transcendental.
As you can see Steve Hackett reached also financial security without betraying his roots.
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Genesis probably peaked as a live band around about 1980 when there was no Hackett. Did they really miss Hackett so much? |
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Genesis reached the peak as a live band in the 80's? I thought their magic concerts with Gabriel were so important and magnificent that today we find a band as The Musical Box trying to recreate them. I see nobody trying to recreate the mediocre Collins concerts.
Collins Genesis didn't miss Steve very much, as a fact they wanted to erase his memory mutilating some of his guitar riffs in Seconds Out as a punishment for wanting to do something more creative instead of diving in a pool of mediocrity.
And they never needed a talented guitar player and composer to release Illegal Alien or Invisible Touch, as they never missed Gabriel to sing Who Dunnit? Or Follow You Follow Me.
REAL GENESIS FANS MISS HACKETT more than the 3 men Genesis, and that's what really matters.
In the 21st Century The Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme still sell a big number of copies, but nobody buys any later album (including ATTW3 and Duke) except some hardcore fans (which are very few), that means something.
That's my humble opinion.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Certif1ed
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 12:58 |
I like Duke as the best pre-neo-prog album ever - it's just superb in the artful combination of prog elements with real song-writing.
If we're just going to say "Genesis are a pure prog band, therefore anything they did that isn't prog is crap", then we're blinkering ourselves to other good music that they wrote. It's the MUSIC that matters.
Sure, the Gabriel stuff was genre-defining prog, but it wasn't 100%, and the Gabriel era albums, despite their utter magnificence, are not without flaws - and I'm not referring to the production, as good music will always shine through poor production.
"Duke", as a musical opus, is practically without a flaw - there's not a track on there that I would skip, apart from, maybe, "Turn it on Again", due to the over-airplay. However, as a prog album, it is flawed, because it does not stick to its prog roots. It shows movement towards a more "poppy" songwiritng style, sure, but that leaning had been there since "More Fool Me" (I refer to the structure of the latter, not the song itself). Genesis always tempered the complex numbers with simpler arragnements - in a way that the historian might think that secretly they wanted to sell pop records. Gabriel himself did after he left Genesis - "So" is crammed with top 10 hits.
"Abacab" is different again, but shows a clear line of progression from "Duke", as the later albums do. I'm not at all keen on "Genesis" or anything later - but it sells, so it can't be all that bad. Maybe.
I wanted to say that "Abacab" was the point at which they "jumped the shark", but there's some great stuff on that album, all consistent with a developing style. Maybe not a style you like, but a style that identifies that era of Genesis nonetheless, and appealed to a wider range of people.
"Invisible Touch" is the last Genesis album that I could possibly bear to listen to - (and then, not often) so "Genesis" is the album at which they "jumped...", at least, as far as I'm concerned.
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richardh
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 15:07 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
REAL GENESIS FANS MISS HACKETT more than the 3 men Genesis, and that's what really matters.
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'Real' Genesis Fans? As opposed to the imaginery kind?
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Marcelo
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 15:28 |
Ivan says:
In the 21st Century The Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme still sell a big number of copies, but nobody buys any later album (including ATTW3 and Duke) except some hardcore fans (which are very few), that means something.
I don't think so. Many Duran Duran (and similar bands) fans surely continue buying ATTW3 and Duke. 
Certif1ed says:
"Abacab" is different again, but shows a clear line of progression from "Duke", as the later albums do. I'm not at all keen on "Genesis" or anything later - but it sells, so it can't be all that bad. Maybe.
Michael Jackson, Britney Spears, etc, sells a lot. Does it mean that their albums aren't so bad? 
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 15:34 |
Duke was their last great album IMO. BUT, not as good as Trick or Wind..or ATTWT or the last three Gabriel albums.
After Duke they were Phil Collins backing band and little more.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 15 2004 at 19:05 |
| like Duke as the best pre-neo-prog album ever - it's just superb in the artful combination of prog elements with real song-writing. |
Well, that's your taste and I respect it, but I really hate Duke, songs like Turn it on Again or Misunderstanding are to my taste poor pop, and absolutely boring.
I believe A Trick of the Tail was a great Neo Prog album (according to many experts this album started the genre), Pendragon, Fish Marillion are great neo prog bands, but IMHO Duke is just pop with some pretensions.
| Sure, the Gabriel stuff was genre-defining prog, but it wasn't 100%, and the Gabriel era albums, despite their utter magnificence, are not without flaws |
Every single album has some flaw, but in Gabriel Genesis you can listen, complex music, quality, intelligent lyrics, great vocals, complex arrangements, in other words ART, in Duke you can only listen some echoes of a past glory played by a band desperate to have a hit single and nothing more. Later stuff is even worst, again IMHO.
| Gabriel himself did after he left Genesis - "So" is crammed with top 10 hits. |
Some Gabriel albums are very good but others are B class, that’s why I said Genesis jumped the shark only after Hackett left, never mentioned Gabriel.
Almost forgot: You mention More Fool Me, but remember, that's a Collins song.
| but it sells, so it can't be all that bad. Maybe |
As Marcelo said, Britney sells, Eminem sells, Scissor Sisters sell, Backstreet Boys sell, Michael Jackson sells, Ricky Martin's La Vida Loca sold millions, N' Sync sells, and that MEANS NOTHING. Rap sell, Hip Hop sells, etc and again only means that most people don't care for quality. But I respect more those "so called" artists, because they are honest enough to admit their music is just plain dance stuff with no artistic merit, but Collins still thinks they did art.
Phil Collins turned a great Progressive band into his favorite session musicians, please take a listen to later Genesis albums and for example No Jacket Required, there’s no radical difference, all the greatness of Genesis was thrown to the trash.
I believe Invisible Touch sells because Collins & Co. sold Genesis for 30 silver coins.
There are ways to sell without betraying art, Dark Side of the Moon is one of the most sold albums in history and has great quality, and Queen sold 10 times what Genesis did and respected more their style. Yes had concerts for 500,000 souls (Yes at QPR) and only sold out when Trevor Rabin joined.
Richardh said:
| 'Real' Genesis Fans? As opposed to the imaginery kind? |
You're right Richardh, maybe I didn't used the right term, but I was thinking in real fans as the ones who are there for the music or others who like the older stuff even when 90% of the world hates progressive rock, as opposed to those who listened ABACAB or We Can't Dance because it was fashion and had top ten tracks, The last kind of fans will forget the band in the moment when the album ceases to be popular, real fans are those who still listen Foxtrot or Trespass even when the albums were never remotely popular. There are faithful fans of the pop era also, but they are very few, because the esence of pop music is precisely to listen what is fashion and forget it soon.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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richardh
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 03:17 |
In response to Ivan's last comments ,I enjoy listening to a variety of music including early Genesis and late seventies Genesis.I agree Foxtrot is a great album (what prog fan would say otherwise??), but aren't Genesis fans allowed to like the later albums as well and still retain their status as 'Real Genesis Fans'? I just happen to like ATTWT and Foxtrot so where does that leave me? Also younger fans may have started listening to later Genesis and then 'graduated' to the earlier stuff.I've noticed over on the Genesis forum there are a lot of younger fans(ie under 30!).Maybe they heard something like Domino and thought that's interesting and decided to check out the back catologue?
Edited by richardh
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Blacksword
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 05:28 |
richardh wrote:
In response to Ivan's last comments ,I enjoy listening to a variety of music including early Genesis and late seventies Genesis.I agree Foxtrot is a great album (what prog fan would say otherwise??), but aren't Genesis fans allowed to like the later albums as well and still retain their status as 'Real Genesis Fans'? I just happen to like ATTWT and Foxtrot so where does that leave me? Also younger fans may have started listening to later Genesis and then 'graduated' to the earlier stuff.I've noticed over on the Genesis forum there are a lot of younger fans(ie under 30!).Maybe they heard something like Domino and thought that's interesting and decided to check out the back catologue?
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Thats just how I discovered Genesis. The first album I heard was ATTWT. This was about the time that Mama was in the charts. I liked it but didn't like Phil Collins' solo stuff Then Tommy Vance played 'Dance on a volcano' on the Radio 1 rock show, and from that moment I was hooked. 'Trick of the tail' was my next purchase followed by all the Gabriel stuff before even thinking about the albums they made in the 80's. I can even hear things I ilke on the Invisible Touch album.
Ok, they dont write 'em like they used to, the old ones are the best etc.. but it is indeed perfectly ok to enjoy the Music of Genesis from all eras and consider yourself a true fan!
Edited by Blacksword
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Certif1ed
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 06:54 |
Well put, Blacksword!
I'm over 30, and I like quite a lot of music from recent decades (but won't deny that the most creative time for rock was the late 60s/early 70s).
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Velvetclown
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 07:00 |
I left with Gabriel
I lefth with Fish
I lefth with Neal Morse
You just can´t replace certain people. 
Now if IAN left Tull............................... 
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Certif1ed
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 07:36 |
How come Hawkwind never had that problem...?
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Velvetclown
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 07:48 |
Dunno , but if Andy Partridge left XTC and Velvetclown left Progarchives, I would also take my leave
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Velvetclown
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Posted: July 16 2004 at 07:50 |
And old people like myself should be shot
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Genesis – Jumping the shark
