Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins...but I really liked Trick and W&W, almost as much as Lamb, so it's not totally Gabriel either...

I can't decide, but it's pretty funny that there's ads for shark cartilage at the bottom of the page.

Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins.

Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, and Anthony Phillips has a very similar dark atmospheric sound to Steve Hackett, I always thought Phillips is just an alias for Steve Hackett

Now seriously, Trespass sounds more like a Hackett album than Selling England.

Now about the question IMHO ATTW3 is pop crap and Duke is not much better, so my vote goes to the moment when Hackett left, honestly I don't care for any later Genesis release, not even Seconds Out (well I like S.O. a bit) due to the criminal mutilation of some Hackett parts.

The magic left with good old Steve.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Hmmm...I liked Trespass just as much as Foxtrot, Nursery, and Selling, so it's not Hackett and Collins. Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, and Anthony Phillips has a very similar dark atmospheric sound to Steve Hackett, I always thought Phillips is just an alias for Steve Hackett Now seriously, Trespass sounds more like a Hackett album than Selling England. Now about the question IMHO ATTW3 is pop crap and Duke is not much better, so my vote goes to the moment when Hackett left, honestly I don't care for any later Genesis release, not even Seconds Out (well I like S.O. a bit) due to the criminal mutilation of some Hackett parts. The magic left with good old Steve. Iván

I totally agree. And I would say that, with "And Then There Were Three", a fantastic part of progressive rock history was criminally mutilated.  

Marcelo said:

I totally agree. And I would say that, with "And Then There Were Three", a fantastic part of progressive rock history was criminally mutilated.

Yes, after W&W everything was downhill, when ATTW3 was released they didn't jumped the shark, they jumped the whale  because the difference with W&W is incredible, they should have changed the artistic name.

Iván

Nope, I believe it's bad because the music is mediocre, full of pop tracks and a piece of cheese as Follow You, Follow Me which only purpose was to reach a top ten single.

It's also bad because they totally forgot about artistic music for a commercial career, which is not bad if you're a member of Duran Duran.

It's bad because they never cared about the loyal fans who followed the band when nobody liked them, and Mr. Collins answered clearly I don't care about them.

That's partially true, Steve made his biggest contribution in W&W, but he wasn't let to do more, they preferred the soft pop music and the search of the big bucks than musical quality and Mr. Hackett wanted something more transcendental.

As you can see Steve Hackett reached also financial security without betraying his roots.

Genesis reached the peak as a live band in the 80's? I thought their magic concerts with Gabriel were so important and magnificent that today we find a band as The Musical Box trying to recreate them. I see nobody trying to recreate the mediocre Collins concerts.

Collins Genesis didn't miss Steve very much, as a fact they wanted to erase his memory mutilating some of his guitar riffs in Seconds Out as a punishment for wanting to do something more creative instead of diving in a pool of mediocrity.

And they never needed a talented guitar player and composer to release Illegal Alien or Invisible Touch, as they never missed Gabriel to sing Who Dunnit? Or Follow You Follow Me.

REAL GENESIS FANS MISS HACKETT more than the 3 men Genesis, and that's what really matters.

In the 21st Century The Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme still sell a big number of copies, but nobody buys any later album (including ATTW3 and Duke) except some hardcore fans (which are very few), that means something.

That's my humble opinion.

Iván

I like Duke as the best pre-neo-prog album ever - it's just superb in the artful combination of prog elements with real song-writing.

If we're just going to say "Genesis are a pure prog band, therefore anything they did that isn't prog is crap", then we're blinkering ourselves to other good music that they wrote. It's the MUSIC that matters.

Sure, the Gabriel stuff was genre-defining prog, but it wasn't 100%, and the Gabriel era albums, despite their utter magnificence, are not without flaws - and I'm not referring to the production, as good music will always shine through poor production.

"Duke", as a musical opus, is practically without a flaw - there's not a track on there that I would skip, apart from, maybe, "Turn it on Again", due to the over-airplay. However, as a prog album, it is flawed, because it does not stick to its prog roots. It shows movement towards a more "poppy" songwiritng style, sure, but that leaning had been there since "More Fool Me" (I refer to the structure of the latter, not the song itself). Genesis always tempered the complex numbers with simpler arragnements - in a way that the historian might think that secretly they wanted to sell pop records. Gabriel himself did after he left Genesis - "So" is crammed with top 10 hits.

"Abacab" is different again, but shows a clear line of progression from "Duke", as the later albums do. I'm not at all keen on "Genesis" or anything later - but it sells, so it can't be all that bad. Maybe.

I wanted to say that "Abacab" was the point at which they "jumped the shark", but there's some great stuff on that album, all consistent with a developing style. Maybe not a style you like, but a style that identifies that era of Genesis nonetheless, and appealed to a wider range of people.

"Invisible Touch" is the last Genesis album that I could possibly bear to listen to - (and then, not often) so "Genesis" is the album at which they "jumped...", at least, as far as I'm concerned.

ivan_2068 wrote: REAL GENESIS FANS MISS HACKETT more than the 3 men Genesis, and that's what really matters.

'Real' Genesis Fans? As opposed to the imaginery kind? 

Ivan says:

In the 21st Century The Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme still sell a big number of copies, but nobody buys any later album (including ATTW3 and Duke) except some hardcore fans (which are very few), that means something.

I don't think so. Many Duran Duran (and similar bands) fans surely continue buying ATTW3 and Duke.   

Certif1ed says:

Duke was their last great album IMO. BUT, not as good as Trick or Wind..or ATTWT or the last three Gabriel albums.

After Duke they were Phil Collins backing band and little more.

like Duke as the best pre-neo-prog album ever - it's just superb in the artful combination of prog elements with real song-writing.

Well, that's your taste and I respect it, but I really hate Duke, songs like Turn it on Again or Misunderstanding are to my taste poor pop, and absolutely boring.

I believe A Trick of the Tail was a great Neo Prog album (according to many experts this album started the genre), Pendragon, Fish Marillion are great neo prog bands, but IMHO Duke is just pop with some pretensions.

Sure, the Gabriel stuff was genre-defining prog, but it wasn't 100%, and the Gabriel era albums, despite their utter magnificence, are not without flaws

Every single album has some flaw, but in Gabriel Genesis you can listen, complex music, quality, intelligent lyrics, great vocals, complex arrangements, in other words ART, in Duke you can only listen some echoes of a past glory played by a band desperate to have a hit single and nothing more. Later stuff is even worst, again IMHO.

Gabriel himself did after he left Genesis - "So" is crammed with top 10 hits.

Some Gabriel albums are very good but others are B class, that’s why I said Genesis jumped the shark only after Hackett left, never mentioned Gabriel.

Almost forgot: You mention More Fool Me, but remember, that's a Collins song.

but it sells, so it can't be all that bad. Maybe

As Marcelo said, Britney sells, Eminem sells, Scissor Sisters sell, Backstreet Boys sell, Michael Jackson sells, Ricky Martin's La Vida Loca sold millions, N' Sync sells, and that MEANS NOTHING. Rap sell, Hip Hop sells, etc and again only means that most people don't care for quality. But I respect more those "so called" artists, because they are honest enough to admit their music is just plain dance stuff with no artistic merit, but Collins still thinks they did art.

Phil Collins turned a great Progressive band into his favorite session musicians, please take a listen to later Genesis albums and for example No Jacket Required, there’s no radical difference, all the greatness of Genesis was thrown to the trash.

I believe Invisible Touch sells because Collins & Co. sold Genesis for 30 silver coins.

There are ways to sell without betraying art, Dark Side of the Moon is one of the most sold albums in history and has great quality, and Queen sold 10 times what Genesis did and respected more their style. Yes had concerts for 500,000 souls (Yes at QPR) and only sold out  when Trevor Rabin joined.

Richardh said:

'Real' Genesis Fans? As opposed to the imaginery kind?

You're right Richardh, maybe I didn't used the right term, but I was thinking in real fans as the ones who are there for the music or others who like the older stuff even when 90% of the world hates progressive rock, as opposed to those who listened ABACAB or We Can't Dance because it was fashion and had top ten tracks, The last kind of fans will forget the band in the moment when the album ceases to be popular, real fans are those who still listen Foxtrot or Trespass even when the albums were never remotely popular. There are faithful fans of the pop era also, but they are very few, because the esence of pop music is precisely to listen what is fashion and forget it soon.

Iván

In response to Ivan's last comments ,I enjoy listening to a variety of music including early Genesis and late seventies Genesis.I agree Foxtrot is a great album (what prog fan would say otherwise??), but aren't Genesis fans allowed to like the later albums as well and still retain their status as 'Real Genesis Fans'? I just happen to like ATTWT and Foxtrot so where does that leave me? Also younger fans may have started listening to later Genesis and then 'graduated' to the earlier stuff.I've noticed over on the Genesis forum there are a lot of younger fans(ie under 30!).Maybe they heard something like Domino and thought that's interesting and decided to check out the back catologue? 

richardh wrote: In response to Ivan's last comments ,I enjoy listening to a variety of music including early Genesis and late seventies Genesis.I agree Foxtrot is a great album (what prog fan would say otherwise??), but aren't Genesis fans allowed to like the later albums as well and still retain their status as 'Real Genesis Fans'? I just happen to like ATTWT and Foxtrot so where does that leave me? Also younger fans may have started listening to later Genesis and then 'graduated' to the earlier stuff.I've noticed over on the Genesis forum there are a lot of younger fans(ie under 30!).Maybe they heard something like Domino and thought that's interesting and decided to check out the back catologue?

Thats just how I discovered Genesis. The first album I heard was ATTWT. This was about the time that Mama was in the charts. I liked it but didn't like Phil Collins' solo stuff  Then Tommy Vance played 'Dance on a volcano' on the Radio 1 rock show, and from that moment I was hooked. 'Trick of the tail' was my next purchase followed by all the Gabriel stuff before even thinking about the albums they made in the 80's.  I can even hear things I ilke on the Invisible Touch album.

Ok, they dont write 'em like they used to, the old ones are the best etc.. but it is indeed perfectly ok to enjoy the Music of Genesis from all eras and consider yourself a true fan!

Well put, Blacksword!

I'm over 30, and I like quite a lot of music from recent decades (but won't deny that the most creative time for rock was the late 60s/early 70s).

How come Hawkwind never had that problem...?

Certif1ed wrote: How come Hawkwind never had that problem...?

What are you talking about!!?? They fell apart when Dik Mik left....

Progarchives without Velvetclown would be like mushy peas without the mush...

Blacksword wrote: Certif1ed wrote: How come Hawkwind never had that problem...? What are you talking about!!?? They fell apart when Dik Mik left....

I (seriously) don't understand;

Dik Mik left in 1973 and Hawkwind released loads of great stuff after that date, including "Hall of the Mountain Grill", "Warrior On The Edge Of Time",  "Levitation", "Sonic Attack", and the much-lauded "Chronicles of the Black Sword" (not one of my favourites, but a lot of people seem to like it).

And have you heard "SpaceBrock" (2001)? I think it's a superb album, which just says "Hawkwind" all over to me.

...Hawkwind were always falling apart, but obstinately kept rising like the phoenix from the ashes...

I think Hawkwind suffered more when Lemmy was booted out - the albums he made with the band are all legendary in their own ways.

Certif1ed wrote: Blacksword wrote: Certif1ed wrote: How come Hawkwind never had that problem...? What are you talking about!!?? They fell apart when Dik Mik left.... I (seriously) don't understand; Dik Mik left in 1973 and Hawkwind released loads of great stuff after that date, including "Hall of the Mountain Grill", "Warrior On The Edge Of Time",  "Levitation", "Sonic Attack", and the much-lauded "Chronicles of the Black Sword" (not one of my favourites, but a lot of people seem to like it). And have you heard "SpaceBrock" (2001)? I think it's a superb album, which just says "Hawkwind" all over to me. ...Hawkwind were always falling apart, but obstinately kept rising like the phoenix from the ashes... I think Hawkwind suffered more when Lemmy was booted out - the albums he made with the band are all legendary in their own ways.

Sorry, I dont think I conveyed my sarcasm very effectivly

The Hawks did of course make their best stuff after he left. I once owned a copy of Dont Panic, the biography by Kris Tait. I couldn't believe how many line up changes they went through. Some of my fave HW albums are the three that Bob Calvert sang on in the mid seventies (Astounding sounds, Quark.. & PXR5) These are now deleted and beyond our reach  HW proved they could play well on these albums, and take production seriously.

But HW did never suffer from losing key members. They just carried on in what ever form they could, and they did, for while get better after Calvert left (Live '79, Levitation) I loved Chronicle of the Blacksword!! Even better was the 'Live Chronicles' album from that tour. I caught them on tour a year later at the Majestic in Reading (your turf, if I'm not mistaken Certif1ed?) It was the loudest noise I had ever heard in my life..

Hang on wasn't this thread about Genesis..??

Hawkwind survive lineup mutations because it's not an ego fuelled band. Solos are usually more a part of a whole, rather than "listen to me shred it up for 5 minutes at a complete tangent to the rest of the song".

For me though, Hawkwinds greatest loss was the late Bob Calvert. "Cpt. Lockheed and the Starfighters" is my favourite Hawkwind album, and Lemmy is as good as ever. Plus, a brilliant vocal contribution fron Arthur Brown. Class!

Blacksword - I musta missed the sarcasm

Still - Space Ritual and Doremi are both incredible albums...

I was at that Majestic gig - it was the last time I saw Hawkwind 'coz it was too much like heavy metal for me! I preferred the 1982 "Sonic Attack" tour gig at Reading's Hexagon. Although the Stonehenge sets were legendary...

er yeah. This thread's about Genesis. TBC in the Hawkwind thread

emdiar wrote: "Duke" is their first almost unlistenable album, for me. I voted, however, for Hackett's departure. (That is to say, as the point of decline, not as a recomended line up change of course.) This is the point that they fell off the shark. The shark in question was swimming at such an incredible speed that sheer conservation of momentum kept them skimming along for a couple of albums, 'though a gradual deceleration was evident, before finally and irrevocably sinking like a stone.

Heh!

Even though I don't totally agree, that's very eloquently put, emdiar!

Richard wrote:

but aren't Genesis fans allowed to like the later albums as well and still retain their status as 'Real Genesis Fans'?

If you read my last post, you'll find I never said that and I quote myself:

There are faithful fans of the pop era also, but they are very few, because the esence of pop music is precisely to listen what is fashion and forget it soon.

As you see I know and accept there are faithful later Genesis era fans and that's great, they are honest and follow their band, but they are not the majority. I know at least 30 guys and girls who bought every Genesis release post Duke, but  if you ask them today about the band, they simply answer "They are dead".

The last ones are the not real fans I was talking about, the millions of posers who buy an album just because it's a top 10 and then they leave to find a new band, those are not real fans.

I enjoy listening to a variety of music

I also do, I like to listen Meatloaf despite his cheesy lyrics, or Jackson Browne, Boomtown Rats and even Enola Gay (OMD). But that's not the point.

Iván

... When Hackett left in order to see his good material out in the market. What were his band mates thinking when they decided that Please Don't Touch didn't make a good Genesis number?... See what happens when you ignore a genious in your own band consistently for so long?...

While Genesis was releasing ATTWT, Duke and Abacab, Hackett released stuff like Please Don't Touch, Spectral Mornings, and Defector. Now Genesis is dead, and all that is left from them is Collins' ballads for Disney movies and Rutherofrd's Mechanics. But still, on the other side of the former 76-78 era quartet, Hackett has released Guitar Noir, Darktown, To Watch the Storms, and some prettu damn good acoustic stuff.

Regards. 

While Genesis was releasing ATTWT, Duke and Abacab, Hackett released stuff like Please Don't Touch, Spectral Mornings, and Defector. Now Genesis is dead, and all that is left from them is Collins' ballads for Disney movies and Rutherofrd's Mechanics

Sadly I have to agree with you, the art left Genesis at the same time Steve went out.

But to be honest and due to the massive taste, those crappy Ballads left Collins and his session musicians (Banks and Rutherford) several millions to be happy.

Iván

For me Genesis jumped the shark when Gabriel left, though Hackett tried to keep them up. I don't really like Trick Of The Trial (and never heared Wind & Wuthering), but it is much better than the stuff after Seconds Out.

When Hackett left, Genesis died a long death (though they were very succesfull with this).

To be fair, the trio were still capable of writing good stuff and make it sound better live (Say It's Alright Joe, Burning Rope, Deep in the Motherlode, Behind the Lines/Duchess, Duke's Travels, Heathaze - even the first Ritherfors solo album), but again, they were remainders of a musica lgreatness that they were no longer interested on exploring further. 

Regards.

More people have voted for this album in the poll than any other. Ten isn't many, but you're all still nuts!

Well as a fact there are 18 who believe the same because the 8 guys who voted for the moment when Peter left will also believe ATTWT is a terrible album, this meens 58.07 of the voters.

I go a bit further, I HATE IT

But you are right Drop Forge, we may all be nuts.

Iván

Two things:

1. I'm starting to go back to my first instincts: Genesis jumped the shark in the time of the release of Abacab. A nice swansong would have been a live album from their Duke tour.

2. Maybe, if hackett would have been properly replaced by a guitarist/composer, with a personality of his own, and at the same time, able to combine the band's new direction with their " artirtically ambitious tradition". Just a bit of historical fiction trivia...

I thought hey jumped the shark with "Calling All Stations", then I gave that record a close listen, and fell in love with it (specially the title track and the mamooth "The Dividing Line" which, among friends, has become and anthem and an excuse for homoseually abusing each other).

Thus, for me, they never jumped the shark. They did what they have to do to last over long distance without tediously repeating themselves. The fact that my favourite Genesis songs are "Mama","One for the Vien", "Dreaming While You Sleep", "The Brazilian", "The Dividing Line" and "Dodo" acknowledges my lousy opinion. (I love "Whodunnit" as well. Ahhh, that "pep" Tony sound...)

Ivan from peru are you my twin brother?Phil Collins turned Genesis into pop rocky trash.He had only one thing in mind and that was popodom.The only Genesis is Gabriel's Genesis.Yes 'Trick'was great and 'Wind' had some very fine moments therafter it was straight down the toilet.When Hackett left the writing was well and truly on the wall.All notions of prog went up the chimney.

                                    temporarily Rael

Genesis had to change musically.It was inevitable.Be grateful they recorded some great masterpeices like 'Suppers Ready'.ATTWT is a perfectly 'sevicable' album even if it isn't as 'progressive' as the others.Sometimes I like to listen to music that isn't so 'progressive' even if it is made by a progressive rock band.But if people want to hate it then that is their perogative I suppose.Seems a terrible waste of energy though!

Eberybody has too change, but I wouldn't like to be you if ELP recorded something like Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?

When you love the music of a band so much, you can't accept they waste their talents doing crappy music, there's a differnce between changing and selling out, I believe Genesis sold out.

No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures.

Iván

PS: Temporarily Rael, I have another twin brother in Wisconsin who uses Rael62 as his nick, so maybe we are triplets.

ivan_2068 wrote: Genesis had to change musically.It was inevitable.Be grateful they recorded some great masterpeices like 'Suppers Ready'.ATTWT is a perfectly 'sevicable' album even if it isn't as 'progressive' as the others.Sometimes I like to listen to music that isn't so 'progressive' even if it is made by a progressive rock band.But if people want to hate it then that is their perogative I suppose.Seems a terrible waste of energy though! Eberybody has too change, but I wouldn't like to be you if ELP recorded something like Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit? When you love the music of a band so much, you can't accept they waste their talents doing crappy music, there's a differnce between changing and selling out, I believe Genesis sold out. No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures. Iván PS: Temporarily Rael, I have another twin brother in Wisconsin who uses Rael62 as his nick, so maybe we are triplets.

Actually I prefer ATTWT to ANY ELP or Yes album recorded after 1978.You could argue that Genesis 'sold out' after Selling England Bt The Pound.They clearly wanted to crack America hence all the USA references on Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.Some of the later Genesis music isn't that bad.I can listen to 'Domino' or 'Home By The Sea' without being sick 

Generally speaking all the music ELP,Yes and Genesis produced after 1978 is crap compared to the 'glory years' of 1970-1973.

"No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures."

My friend Iván is right. GENESIS chose the the road of pop never to turn back to their grandiouse roots again. ELP did return to prog in 'Black Moon' (though not being as grea tas theur classics, you can tell that they were going back to their roots). After an unabashed AOR phase, KANSAS returned to prog from 1995 onwards. Si did YES now and then with the 2 Keys to Ascension, and Magnification. Even earlier, JETHRO TULL managed to create such good albums as Crest of a Knave and Rock Island after 2 semi-op albums and a flagrant pop album. And what about CAMEL? Again, being admittedly inferior in quality than their great 70s efforts, Andy Latimer's and co.'s four last studio albums are clearly defined under prog patterns.

Far from English speaking lands, LE ORME have been doing some damn good back-to-prog-roots albums during the last 10 years, and we have witnessed the gloriuos comebacks of METAMORFOSI, BALLETTO DI BRONZO, CAMPO DI MARTE.

It is possible to keep on going on the road of musical creativity and evolve without detaching oneself from their own roots. ELP, YES, KANSAS and others knew that - how come GENESIS didn't? In fact, I see no evolution between Abacab and We Can't Dance, except that they gave up on horn arrangements pretty soon.

On teh other hand, I want to reiterate that I find ATTWT pretty enjoyable, though a bit irregular; Duke seems to me a bit less enojoyable, though not that irregular.

Regards.

charliefreak wrote: For me, they lost it completely after We Can't Dance. That was the album that turned me right off them. I could handle tracks on Invisible Touch, Genesis, but that was it. Saying that, so what? They'd evolved into something completely different from what they'd been, but it was their right to do what they wanted. They gained a whole new audience and sold an awful lot of records. Sure, I prefer the old stuff, but I don't see the change of style as being some terrible act of treachery. Hell, it's only music. I don't think Genesis or indeed many of the so-called prog bands discussed here feel quite as passionately about these issues of what is prog and what is not prog as many of their fans do. Their interest lies in making the music they want to make at any given time and hoping it appeals to enough people.

After reading this post, I've been trying to figure out why that phrase "only music" irritates me so much. The first thought that came to me was that "only music" pretty well characterizes the 'disposable product' view of music that the consumer-driven industry thrives upon. It's my impression (and I'll be the first to admit I'm not completely in touch with reality) that people who like prog generally regard their favorite bands or albums or songs as something special and meaningful- that they posess a quality that elevates the music above "only music" status. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe a lot of you out there prefer progressive rock over other genres the same way you prefer italian food over chinese food, or boxers over briefs.

I don't think anyone really cares if Genesis (or any other of 'our' bands) think of themselves as prog or not. I'm pretty sure most of the people who post to this site are aware that the discussions about categorizing and labeling bands and genres are just a bit of fun and a little intellectual exercise. Nor are most of us going to say that a band is better or worse because it is or isn't clearly "progressive rock". If Genesis had changed their name after (for instance) Howe left, this entire discussion would be moot as the resulting band would have been at best a secondary entry on this site, if it qualified for inclusion at all.

It depends on what you think "evolving" really entails...only the band themselves really know if they changed due to personal or musical growth, or wanted to attract new listeners, or wanted to make more money, or just got lazy. The whole 'jump the shark' concept is for fans to determine when something started getting worse instead of better. Or, for instance, when it stopped being an attempt to do something unique and meaningful and started being "only music".

James Lee wrote:   If Genesis had changed their name after (for instance) Howe left, this entire discussion would be moot

Oh wow, man.... Howe left Genesis? I musta overslept, James. Which album did he play on? Abracabrafication?

Anyway.... I agree with your view regarding "only music." It's much more important than that to me. Even non-Prog music. There is a requirement beyond being a casual listener, a depth. There is a sense of loss when a musical hero turns out a sub-par effort or a blatantly commercial release. We have a sense of ownership, through support and promotion. When they simple change course it creates an alienation with those who understood that "deeper meaning."

Pickles, anyone?

danbo wrote: Anyway.... It's much more important than that to me. Even non-Prog music. There is a requirement beyond being a casual listener, a depth. There is a sense of loss when a musical hero turns out a sub-par effort or a blatantly commercial release. We have a sense of ownership, through support and promotion. When they simple change course it creates an alienation with those who understood that "deeper meaning."

I strongly agree, however if the "blatantly commercial release" is of high quality (eg., Supertramps' "Crime of the Century", Yes's "90125", Peter Gabriel's "So", Styx's "Grand Illusion", Rush's "Moving Pictures" (3 AOR releases)) then for me there is no sense of loss, but one of rediscovery.

IMHO. 

a Classic Poll

Without a doubt Abacab.  Duke is quite good, minus a few bad songs.  Once Phil Collins' Face Value Album went to #1, the band changed direction, simple as that.

"Trick of the Tail" was the beginnig of a pre-death.

They floated, more or less, from "Trick" to "Duke" (the last decent album).

After "Duke" no Genesis at all !