Nursery Cryme vs Fragile

Doctor:

ivan_2068 wrote: Yessongs Ltd. changed their name to Topographic Music between 1973 and 1974, THAT'S WHY BOTH LABELS ARE MENTIONED IN THE ALBUM.

I am sorry, but this doesnt make a damn sense. If Roundaobut was first copyrighted by Yessongs and Rondor by 1971 and then because Yessongs was changed to Topographic they had to mention both names (Because it's the law, all previous copyrights mnust be mentioned until they expire after 25 years - To understand the law you have to be a lawyer-) why isn't this the case for Starship Trooper? How comes it is ONLY Topographic (and not Yessongs) and Rondor by 1971???? BECAUSE STARSHIP TROOPER IS OFFICIALLY COPYRIGHTED IN 1971 (FRAGILE ONLY HAS A (P) MEANING  PATENT PENDING IN 1971 -LOOK AT YOUR PHOTO AND READ MY EDITED PREVIOUS POST - BUT THE COPYRIGHT OF FRAGILE IS FROM 1972)

If you add 25 years to 1971, (When Yes Album and Stership Trooper were copyrighted) You´ll notive that the copyright of Yessongs Ltd over The Yes HAD EXPIRED PRECISELY THAT YEAR, SO THERE WAS NO NEED TO MENTION IT IN 1996!!!!!!!

As you read in the Copyright Act transcription (HOPE YOU UNDERSTOOD IT), "THE RIGHT OF THE PUBLISHER EXPIRES AFTER 25 YEARS".

BUT PLEASE, ANSWER ALL MY PREVIOUS POST,

ANSWER ABOUT THE OFICIAL STORY OF YES IN YESYEARS,

ANSWER ABOUT THE LITERAL QUOTES IN THAT BOOKLET (IF YOU CAN).

Enough for now, will read the rest of your arguments later!

Doctor:

I accept what you say about Topographic, in fact I looked it up and it was incorporated in 06-11-1973. IT WAS ABOT TIME And I totally understand that 25 years issue. So Starship Trooper was copyrighted in early 1971 by Yessongs, and in KTA relase in 1996 as the 25 years were over, it only shows Topographic and you use the same argument for Roundabout and conclude that by 1996 the 25 years was not yet over so they had to mention Yessongs. YOU'RE RIGHT, BECAUSE ROUNDABOUT WAS COPYRIGHTED WITH A CIRCLE C IN 1972, SO THE RIGHT ENDS IN 1997Ok, I agree with that, but it all depends on when in 1996 KTA was released. READ THE LAW, THE COPYRIGHTS END IN THE 25TH YEAR AFTER THE YEAR OF RELEASE MONTHS DON'T COUNT My information shows it was released as early as Jun 1996, by then the 25 years of  Roundabout was not over yet. I BELIEVE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STARSHIP TROOPER BUT YES, BECAUSE THE 25TH YEAR STARTED JAN 1° OF 1996, YESSONGS LTD WAS ABLE TO ACTUALIZE THEIR RIGHT, BUT BECAUSE THERE WAS NO YESSONGS LTD ANYMORE, THERE WAS NO NEED FOR THIS We are talking about months here, so you can't use that arguement to prove that Fragile was copyrighted in 1972 not 1971. Find better evidence please!

AGAIN YOU AVOID THE YESYEARS OFFICIAL BOOKLET THAT I QUOTED FOUR POSTS AGO, THAT'S VERY SOLID EVIDENCE. (Next time I will use size 6 fonts)

Yeah, it was too good, my head is killing me this morning.


well I was going to stand back and let you all beat yourself senseless, but answer me this.  All this copyright info is great, but is it possible for an album to be released in 1972 to be at #4 on the charts in 1971.  Charts are based on sales of albums not promotional giveaways.  To me the commen sense has been lost in this thread.  If the album was on the charts, it was for sale, it had been released, thus... this debate while interesting... is pointless other than to figure out the discrepancy. I get the feeling Ivan you are trying to prove it was not released in '71 rather then find out why the sources you have quoted are not consistant with actually release date. Whatever date that may be ahhahah.  Unless you want to contend that those chart positions are made up.

Yes it's possible, we had almost 100 reviews and coments or even MP3 of Octavarium since one month before it was released, you weren't here bythose days, but I'm sure it also happened in DDD.

micky wrote: hahahah, sounds like a helluva party Ivan.  Hope you are seeing straight today, and your girlfriend is doing well hahahah  Yeah, it was too good, my head is killing me this morning. well I was going to stand back and let you all beat yourself senseless, but answer me this.  All this copyright info is great, but is it possible for an album to be released in 1972 to be at #4 on the charts in 1971.  Charts are based on sales of albums not promotional giveaways.  To me the commen sense has been lost in this thread.  If the album was on the charts, it was for sale, it had been released, thus... this debate while interesting... is pointless other than to figure out the discrepancy. I get the feeling Ivan you are trying to prove it was not released in '71 rather then find out why the sources you have quoted are not consistant with actually release date. Whatever date that may be ahhahah.  Unless you want to contend that those chart positions are made up. Yes it's possible, we had almost 100 reviews and coments or even MP3 of Octavarium since one month before it was released, you weren't here bythose days, but I'm sure it also happened in DDD.

I'm almost sure this charts are about some of the mini LP's or singles relased before Fragile, just look at the picture of the  green single of Roundabout, they didn't even had enough time to include Rick Wakeman on the photo }

The charts could also make a reference to the FRAGILE tour that started in UK inmediately after the album was RECORDED (Not the same as released) in September 1971, even the source you quoted of September 1971, talked about the recently released FRAGILE and at least we all agree that the album wasn't released in September 1971, so there are some strange and contradictory informations there.

But I assure you something, no company in the world would allow an album to be released without a full copyright, no lawyer in the world is so syupid to allow that (I won't do it, and I'm not being paid 10 grands a month to protect the company), and we have seen that the Circle C only appears since 1972.

It's also important to read the booklet in Yesyears, there are at least three specific quotes that say Fragile was released in 1972, I'm sure you have that box set.

Check it.

Now, going to eat something cold.

Iván

[QUOTE=micky]

well I was going to stand back and let you all beat yourself senseless, but answer me this.  All this copyright info is great, but is it possible for an album to be released in 1972 to be at #4 on the charts in 1971.  Charts are based on sales of albums not promotional giveaways.  To me the commen sense has been lost in this thread.  If the album was on the charts, it was for sale, it had been released, thus... this debate while interesting... is pointless other than to figure out the discrepancy. I get the feeling Ivan you are trying to prove it was not released in '71 rather then find out why the sources you have quoted are not consistant with actually release date. Whatever date that may be ahhahah.  Unless you want to contend that those chart positions are made up.

Yes it's possible, we had almost 100 reviews and coments or even MP3 of Octavarium since one month before it was released, you weren't here bythose days, but I'm sure it also happened in DDD.

Doctor:

ivan_2068 wrote: The ©  symbol  protects everything, if you have it in UK you don't need a , so it's exactly as a Patent Pending.

Phonogram rights in sound recordings è

Sound recordings have a right separate from the underlying musical composition, So, with a P symbol neither the composition, lyrics, covers artwork and score are protected, only the soud, soimething I said before. and a sound recordings should carry a phonogram copyright notice (denoted by the P in a circle) for the recording itself. The standard © notice should also be used, but in the case of sound recordings this is used to protect the cover design, lyric sheets or other printed material included with the sound recording.

But please, use the complete text of the law, not a partial analysis:

What copyright exists in music? There are principally 2 types of copyright to consider when we talk about music copyright. The traditional ©, ‘C in a circle’ copyright, applies to the composition, musical score, lyrics, as well as any artwork or cover designs, as all of these are individually subject to copyright in their own rights, (though when you register, you can include them all in a single registration provided they have the same copyright owner(s))        &am p;am p;nb sp;      The second type of copryright applies to the sound recording itself, and is signified by the ‘P in a circle’ .

So, as you see, the ©, symbol protects composition, musical score, lyrics, as well as any artwork or cover designs

The   symbol only protecs the sound of a determined phoogram or recording, nothing else, in conclusion and as I said, it's an incomplete protection that no intelligent lawyer will allow.

I already said all of this.

Very clever ...you're cheating  and I almost believed you. You should have been a lawyer, and a very tricky one.

No, I didn't cheat, because I am not a lawyer , but yes, I am very clever !

You don't need to be a lawyer to cheat and not all lawyers cheat, I use complete quotes, you use fragments and rules that don't belong, so Who's cheating?

Back to copyright issue. According to this page:

http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

Copyright of music lyrics falls under "literary" lasts for 70 years after the dead of creator and music and musical scores fall under and the music itself falls under "musical" lasts 50 years after the dead of composer. According to this page, "Code of Fair Practice" ttp://www.mpaonline.org.uk/code_ofp.html :

12. (1) Copyright in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies, subject to the following provisions of this section.

You're cheating, this article has no relation with FRAGILE, it's useless, for two reasons:

a) The author of FRAGILE according to UK laws is not YES, it's COTILLION and IRVING, and as you imagine companies DON'T DIE.

9.—(1) In this Part "author", in relation to a work, means the person who creates it.     (2) That person shall be taken to be—  (a) in the case of a sound recording or film, the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the making of the recording or film are undertaken; (d) in the case of the typographical arrangement of a published edition, the publisher http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_2.htm

b) When a work is published, the copyright lasts only 25 years as you well say in your next quote

I wonder, why you included this article WHEN IT'S NOT OUR CASE?????? Isn't that called CHEATING??????

However, what both of the above sites and the UK copyright law agree upon and is the center of our argument here is this:

Now this is the article, but again you omit to include the side page notes of the law that clearly indicates this is the caseof Fragile, which I will add in red:

So now it's clear, in the case of FRAGILE, the 70 years article is CRAP and not pertinent, because Cotillion and Irving  owned the rights of FRAGILE as publishers, don't understand why you incude useless information.

It is simple math. Becasue Roundabout was copyrighted in 1971,

Sorry, the only (C) symbol on a Roundabout version is from 1972, don't try to cheat again.

they should have still mentioned Yessongs in 1996,

And they did for God's sake, you even quoted it :

because from end of 1971 to mid 1996, 25 years is not over yet.

Well. to be precise, it's from 1972, so the rights ended at 1997 (You must start counting from the release year, so if you start in 1972, you'll end in Dec. 1996?

Also you never answered my question if Roundabout was not copyrighted in 1971, why they had to mention 1971 in KTA? 

BECAUSE IT WAS  COPYRIGHTED IN 1972...... 1972 + 25 = 1997 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KTA was released in 1996  and expired Jan 1° 1997

Also there might be other issues here, like partnerships between these companies, I mean maybe some songs transferred to Topographic, some remained under Yessongs, I don't know. Then again there is a discrepency here, because the same applies to Starship Trooper.

Youare not accurate again, in your own quote from KTA Roundabout appears with 7 asterisks (Look a few lines above) and Starship Trooper with 8 asterisks:

Starship Trooper********

******** © 1971 Topographic Music, Ltd / Rondor Music (London) Ltd. (Again, from your own quote).

So it's evident, Starship Trooper was released in 1971 in The Yes Album, so the Yessongs Ltd. rights had expired, and there was no need to mention it.

Roundabout was Copyrighted in 1972, so the rights of Yessongs Ltd, had not expired and that's the reason why they mention them in KTA!!!

Now I wonder, do you even know how to count asterisks??

The different marks placed in Starship Trooper and Roundabout PROVE BEYOND ANY DOUBT that the two albums weren't copyrighted in the same year, The Yes Album was copyrighted in 1971, so Roundabout was obviously copyrighted in 1972!!!!!

ivan_2068 wrote: AGAIN YOU AVOID THE YESYEARS OFFICIAL BOOKLET THAT I QUOTED FOUR POSTS AGO, THAT'S VERY SOLID EVIDENCE. (Next time I will use size 6 fonts)

Yes, I am not going to answer that because I have already told you several times that we are not talking about what is  the OFFICIAL release date, we are talking about Fragile LP being FIRST released in UK in Nov 1971 and charted.

This is also false:

The booklet clearly discrinates the date of release in UK and USA when pertinent:

YES - YES

UK Release date, July 25, 1969

US release date: October 15, 1969

7567-81147-1/2 (Official andoriginal catalog number, which is correlative)

You see? YES was released on July in UK and on October 1969 on USA

Now:

Yes - Fragile:

RELEASE DATE: JAN 4, 1972

7567-81531-1/4/2 (Official and only valid original catalog number, correlative - Yes Album was 7567-81530-1/4/2 and Close to the Edge was 7567-81532-1/4/2 )

You see, there's no UK and US date of release, because it's not pertinent, the album was a worldwide released according to THIS OFFICIAL HISTORY BOOKLET PUBLISHED BY YES IN THE YESYEARS ALBUM.

If you're so stubborn that this is not enough for you, read page 8 OF THE SAME OFFICIAL YES BOOKLET:

Released in the OPENING MOMENTS OF 1972, FRAGILE contained......

This a YES OFFICIAL INFORMATION IN A PUBLISHED EDITION; why should I doubt?

BTW: What do you think about this?

First I was afraid and believed Yes official info was unreliable.

http://yesmuseum.org/FragileReview.txt

But then asked myself why  didn't Gomah quoted this information of the Yes Museum? So I went and checked the page, but oh surprise, this is what I found:

------------------------------------------------------------ --- Transcribed for Yesman's Museum of YES by Dennis McGee          [email protected]                                           ------------------------------------------------------------ --- http://yesmuseum.org/FragileReview.txt

1. This is not from the Yes Museum.......It's from the YESMAN'S Museum  
2. This wasn't even published by the Yesman's Museum (Whatever this is ), it's a review from a subject named Dennis McGee, who nowbody knowsabout.
3. Believing Mr Dennis McGee was some important guy from Yes or Atlantic, checked the name in Google and found Dennis McGee was a Cajun fiddler born in 1893 www.cajunfrenchmusic.org/biographies/mcgee-d.htm - 2k
4. There's another Dennis McGee mentioned in Google but he's a painter http://members.aol.com/dennisarts/

But I said Ok, I'll check this Yesman's Museum (Not official or authorized by Yes) anyway and oh surprise, this guys have contradictory versions:

1972 to 1973 LYRICS Fragile Close To The Edge America Yessongs Tales From Topographic Oceans http://yesmuseum.org/1972.html

This Yesman's Museun clasifies Fragile as released in 1972  They don't even know what they say in one page and what they say on another.

Please Gomah, you can do better than that, but I understand why you only included the link and didn't quoted it.

So let me tell you this INFO IS NOT RELIABLE AT ALL

And you never talked about this either:

Fritha wrote: In regards to the release year of Fragile, if you have the remastered King Crimson album, Islands, you will find a print that shows the chart from a (music?) paper, dating back to December 18 1971, and it clearly has Fragile charted at number 4. If this isn't reliable, what is?! LOL Honestly I can't understand what it happened in 1971, don't even know if this charts are reliable, if this charts were based in the pre-Fragile tour or in the solo release. I trust and quote ONLY YES OFFICIAL SITES, ALBUMS AND PUBLICATIONS, don't only mention them, I copy, paste and quote the pertinent parts.

I am sorry Iván, unfortunately as you lack enough evidence, you are starting to get personal  and if you are going to continue that, I am not going to argue with you any more on this issue. I thoguht you will understand when I am joking by putting smilies like this  and when I am not. But if you got offended I apologize.

Yes I anwered in rude terms terms to your insinuation, so I apologize for that, but I don't lack of evidence, everything I quoted is officially published by YES

What I metioned was an introduction and I insisted that the next part is our center of the argument. That was an introduction!!! And your point about Authorship is misleading. Read again the law and you will notice, that authorship in terms of typographical arragnements is totally different than music authorship and the musician has the rights over the piece of music 70 years after death. Read carefully!

This was the LITERAL quote of THE COPYRIGHT ACT OF UK, there's no doubt who should be taken as the author, please, you can understand that.

For God's sake please! Read over what you've written and see if you yourself understand it.

Yes, I understand it, maybe it's not clear enough because English is not my first languiage, but even you must accept that all my quotes are reliable and that the Yesman's Museum quote you made is a joke.

If you want to avoid all my points do it, I'm already tired of this replies but at least read the Yesyears booklet in the pages I quoted and tell me (In a PM if you want to keep it private) if this isn't reliable.