micky wrote: Ivan, wasn't trying to prove a thing other than bring something different to the discussion other than who likes what,  'bad production' and 'filler'.  Charts aren't everything, but they do help measure an albums importance and it's influence/impact, especially with a fringe/underground genre like prog. If you are hitting the charts, you've reached more people than your target audience of dope smoking college kids.

Well Micky, charts alone mean nothing, each band had their own circumstances:

Fragile: By the time Fragile was released Yes was already famous, Bill Bruford was considered among the best drummers, Jon Anderson’s voice was so peculiar that gained attention, but most important, was the first album with the already famous ex-Strawbs Rick Wakeman something that was the recruit of the year.

Yes had released a single of Roundabout, which was a hit all around the world, here In Perú, where  Prog’ albums were NEVER recorded or released, both Roundabout and Fragile were sold in the stores, so it was a COMMERCIAL success due mostly to that song.

Genesis: When Nursery Cryme was released was formed by a bunch of UNKNOWN kids who had left school during the previous two years they didn’t had ANY HIT or solo album that reached the charts.

To make it worst, it was a very complex album except For Absent Friends, and even worst they had lost the founder and almost frontman Anthony Phillips (Look at Genesis a History where he said that Peter was so shy that he didn’t talked to the public and Anthony had to do that job which caused him pneumonia due to his stage panic).

The replacements were even less known, Steve Hackett had never played on any important band (He was the same age or one year younger than the rest) and Phil Collins had only worked in Oliver and a film called Calamity the Cow..

So before you worry for charts and positions which mean absolutely nothing except that a band is popular, care about the historic moment that both bands lived.

Of course you worry about France and Germany where none bands was famous but you don't mention Italy and Belgium where Yes was a third class act and Genesis was the top band even over the most popular groups and over Italians, so I can understand what conclusion you're trying to reach using incomplete information.

Yes was famous in London, Genesis had to play in Italy (Where Nursery Cryme reached N° 1 for several MONTHS) because they were unknown in Great Britain but in the already mentioned Italy and Belgium they were ICONS and the base of Italian Prog’. Which IMO is almost as important as British.

If I paid attention only to USA or UK  charts, I would have never listened 666 (Waited 2 years before anybody dared to produce this album), Heaven and Hell by Vangelis, Per un Amico (PFM), Darwin (Banco del Mutuo Soccorso) and a lot of great bands that never reached the charts in both countries because they were unknown in UK and the last two had to hire Pete Sinfield to translate (Or more precisely butcher) their lyrics to be accepted.

Iván

BTW: Dope smokers??? You're using the same language that those who criticize Prog use, or do you believe that people goes to Yes concerts to be sane??? People smoke dope  and drink booze in each and every concert, so don't come with such a lame argument.

College kids?? Please, read what you write, the target audience of Prog was precisely College kids because of it's complexity that required (as general rule) a more prepared audience.

Yes had the luck to have an early hit single so they gathered some audience outside their natuiral target and Genesis did the same with I Know What I Like two years later that gained also fans ouutside the College circle, besides tha Peter Gabriel was already famous at that point because his costums and theatrical work since the Foxtrot Tour.

BTW 2: Nursery Crime was released in 1971 when Prog was still on dippers, Fragile was released in 1972.

BTW 3:  Micky wrote:

UK FRAGILE Date: 04-12-1971 - Run: *7*-15-28-0-0-31-24-24-16-36-15-26-47-18-26-0-50-0-21-39-0-0 -0-24 (17-10c/1 wks) Total # of re-entries: 4 US:#4/46/15

Strange info from 1971, because Fragile was released in 1972, how could they reach the charts before being released???????

Probably you're using the info of the 45 RPM Roundabout or the mini LP also named Roundabout trying to prove Fragile was a greater hit than it realy was.

ivan_2068 wrote: Nursery Crime was released in 1971 when Prog was still on dippers, Fragile was released in 1972

Actually, Fragile (November 1 1971) was released 11 days before Nursery Cryme.

Nope, Yes Fragile was released in UK Jan 04, 1972 (  http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql= 10:g02gtq4ztu46 )

If you don't trust Allmusic, here is the information of the official Yes site (Look at the serial number it's 1972)

Album: Fragile Artist: Yes 1972 Atlantic [UK LP], 2003 Elektra/Rhino [2003 extended and remastered] CD: 82667-2 [first Atlantic remaster], 8122-73789-2 [2003 extended and remastered  http://www.relayer35.com/Yescography/fragile.htm

In USA was released in February 1972, the cofusion started because the first series of albums was printed in 1971 but only released in the first working day of 1972, of course the Label (Atlantic) placed the date when the cover was printed..

BTW: The recording of the album ended in November 1971, this may also add some troubles and lead to confusion, but 100% sure it was released in 1972

Nursery Cryme was released November 12, 1971, you were right on that

But nice job writing all of that, I actually read it all and I ussualy don't read long posts.. Interesting stuff :)

Thanks, I always do my best or at least try to

No man, you were throwing misinformation:

1. There can't be charts of 1971 abou Fragile because it was released in 1972.
2. You never mentuioned Italy where Genesis was N° 1 because it was not convenient, but you mention USA, a country with less importance for Prog in the early 70's. You also mention Germany abnd France where none of both was released.

Unless all are you are interested in is another 'I like this album more than this one' thread.  Bah!!!!  You appear to take offense to it.  Are you so much of a fanboy that you think I'm trying to 'discredit' 'Nursery Cryme and Genesis by extention.  Remember my post, was a response to a post that Nursery Cryme was as, or nearly as influential as Fragile.  Which is a crock and you you know it.  If people are not  listening to it (measured in part by who is buying the album) then how can it be influential.

Your post is just one more with Progger and another guy, you said clearly:

Nursery Cryme didn't even chart in their home country until what... 3 years after it was released.  Why... who knows,  bad production,  a rep as a boring group ,  or the more likely view, they were a 2nd or 3rd rate prog group at the time.  Doesn't prove much I know, other than while many hear find Nursery Cryme to be an equal of Fragile, in any kind of objective 'analysis' ... it isn't.

You call Genesis a 3rd rate boring band and you say that according an objective analysis it isn't equal to Fragile.

Don't you consider that misinformation and being offensive? Well I do

As far as your BTW... we have a thing here in N.C. called humor.  Relax.

Then try to say something funny for a change. You clearly stated that Genesis fans were College dope smokers and Yes fans not, well I proved that most Prog bands fanbase was full of College dope smokers.

and to spare a repeat post to you.  Find where in this thread where I said, I quote you, 'Nursery Cryme was crap'.

Read my post, I never said that. so what's your point???

To refresh your memory,  I said specifically in this thread I like the album, I just don't think it ever was or is on Fragile's level.  I know you are a lawyer, but let's keep it friendly, and try not to distort or misread what I wrote.

Yes i'm a lawyer and I'm proud of it, but I havent distorted a single fact, if you notice all my replies I always use quotes to support what I say, because that's the way I work.

I don't invent charts of albums that weren't released.

From the officoial Yes Web Site

Quote:

You can also check Allmusic: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:idjn7i3j g77r

Artist Yes Album Fragile Rating Release Date Jan 4, 1972 Recording Date Sep 1971

There's no possible mistake, Yes official site can't be wrong.

Fragile released Sept of '71, and were recording Close to the Edge by the time you think the album was released.  I didn't make those figures up,  I'm not a kiddie.  They're  availiable online.

Hey Micky, you're making too many mistakes lately, this is the copy of the data  from the official release:

Produced by Yes and Eddie Offord Engineered by Eddie Offord, assisted by Gary Martin Recorded at Advision Studios, London, Sep 1971 Original sleeve drawings, photography and logos by Roger Dean; photo of Bruford on drums by David Wright

As you can see it was RECORDED in September 1971, but was released in JAN 4, 1972

This information was also taken from the official YESCOGRAPHY http://www.relayer35.com/Yescography/home.htm

I can be wrong, you can be wrong, but the official Yes site can't be wrong, especially when this information is verified by ALLMUSIC and if you want more, you can check: http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD. asp?cd_id=1825 (PROG ARCHIVES)

YES Fragile 1972 Studio Album Title information (Edit) | MP3 | Reviews | Buy Music

4.46 Excellent addition to any prog music collection

Track listing 1. Roundabout (8:29) 2. Cans And Brahms (1:35) 3. We Have Heaven (1:30) 4. South Side Of The Sky (8:04) 5. Five Percent For Nothing (0:35) 6. Long Distance Runaround (3:33) 7. The Fish (Schindleria Praematurus) (2:35) 8. Mood For A Day (3:57) 9. Heart Of The Sunrise (10:34) Total Time: 41:13 Line-up - Jon Anderson / vocals - Chris Squire / bass and vocals - Rick Wakeman / keyboards - Bill Bruford / drums - Steve Howe / guitars and vocals Releases information CDD Atlantic (7567-82667-2) (1972)

I hope this is enough for you, Allmusic, the Official Yescography and Prog Archives.

Your sources are wrong my friend.