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Direct Link To This Post Topic: key transposition
    Posted: April 29 2005 at 18:20
iwas thinking about requiems and this question came to mind.....the different keys are widely thought to have their own certain character or flavor(C major-triumphant, A flat major- key of the grave/ solemn , etc.).....i was wondering if you can think of any instances in prog or elsewhere(i would assume it would be in prog if it were anywhere), where the key of a really famous work of one of the greats( something most people would recognize if hearing, like the waltz from carmen or the sweet pathos in beethoven's 5th)is transposed to such a distant(different) key that the mood or tone of the song itself actually changes....i guess what im getting at as well would be this....every song can be transposed into every key, how much if at all does a key transposition really affect the way we hear a song? is the intervallic symmetry enough that the song remains the same song, or is some internal characteristic lost by this frequency change?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2005 at 18:34
Very, very interesting question... By changing the key of the song, is it affected intrinsically, or is it the same song? Well, it will, no doubt, be the same song. But there could be a slight mood change. I mean, I play the piano, and I've played things in different keys, with minimal change to the song. I don't see the song changing all that much. But perhaps, like every other topic in prog, this might just be opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2005 at 22:27

Originally posted by hopelevre hopelevre wrote:

iwas thinking about requiems and this question came to mind.....the different keys are widely thought to have their own certain character or flavor(C major-triumphant, A flat major- key of the grave/ solemn , etc.).....i was wondering if you can think of any instances in prog or elsewhere(i would assume it would be in prog if it were anywhere), where the key of a really famous work of one of the greats( something most people would recognize if hearing, like the waltz from carmen or the sweet pathos in beethoven's 5th)is transposed to such a distant(different) key that the mood or tone of the song itself actually changes....i guess what im getting at as well would be this....every song can be transposed into every key, how much if at all does a key transposition really affect the way we hear a song? is the intervallic symmetry enough that the song remains the same song, or is some internal characteristic lost by this frequency change?

I have no f**king idea



Edited by mwb498
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2005 at 22:43
hard to say.. i've come up with a few different songs, ones that to me and some of my friends whom i have shown these to sound quite emotional. in the process of writing them, i jumped around to different keys to facilitate the chord changes on the fingerboard of my guitar, and i didnt think the songs lost any of their feeling in that..

mind you, this is just one example of this, so there may be other factors such as the harmony or counterpoint of a song, mixed with the key that stimulates our brains to feel a certain way upon hearing these pieces of music, so i dont really know for sure
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2005 at 22:51
modulating between keys within a song and transposing a song to a different key are two different things.....maybe im misunderstanding you though
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 05:39
Try to get the song "Ashes" by Pain of Salvation, in the "Perfect Element I" and the "12:5" albums, and compare both versions. This alone might answer your question...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 06:29
you drive us on deep waters, but i like to swim on deep waters. in key transpositions, in my layman's opinion (I used to play violin and guitar, however), beatles or yes were masters (not only in major and minor ones). Yes in addition used in a magnificient way a contrapunct, but that would be for the new topic enough. I absolutely agree that individual keys have they own mood and character. But of course, for the layman's ears it is hard to differentiate between e.g. D and A or C when just listening. Sometimes when you try to play it, you find that the song is not that complicated as you had thought before. But it is a genius, to make great buildings with the simple stones. By the way, very nice are the fluent transpositions from major to minor or vice versa. just listen 'my room' of VDGG on 'still life'. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 06:34
Well, the reason why different keys really sound different (and there is a huge difference between, say, a-minor and f#-minor) is that the way instruments (as well as everything) resonate changes from note to note, key to key.

Even it seems to be too hard for the pianists and keyboardists of this world to understand, there is a major difference between D# and Eb...

Rock music is usually performed with a focus on well-tempered instruments (keyboards) - meaning that each and every interval is just as "wide" as any other interval with the same name.

A piano is tuned according to achieve the following result;

Every minor 2nd is just the size of every other minor 2nd.

Let's say we are to tune an octave of keys. We would choose to begin with C1, and choose it to vibrate at 264 Hz. As an octave means that the number of Hzs is doubled, C2 would then be 528 Hz, and further, C3 would be 1056Hz. This means that a difference between C and C# is not the same in Hzs as the difference between C# and D, but that the difference should be relatively the same.

It takes 12 minor seconds to fill the octave, and the octave doubles the number of Hzs - therefore we can count that [i raised to the power of 12] = 2, where i  is the coefficent that is used to tune a note that is a minor second higher than the note already defined...

if [i raised to the power of 12] = 2, then i = approx. 1,05946

C1=264Hz
C#= 1,05946 x 264 Hz= 279,69744
D = 279,69744 x 1,05946 = 296,32825
D#/Eb = 313,94793

etc.

In real life, however, keys are tempered to the closest "full" Hz.

C = 264. D = 296. E = 333. F = 352. G = 395,5. A = 444. H = 498. C2 = 528.

This is a rather artificial way of tuning instruments. And it makes the difference between keys to disappear almost entirely.

But as I said before, if strings or woodwinds (or any instruments that aren't well-tempered) are used, the difference between keys is tremendous. Whether a key is tragic and some other happy, I wouldn't know, but there is a difference in the way instruments sound and resonate.

Cheers

-Beau




Edited by Beau Heem
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 08:22
interesting answers, but none of them(except maybe 1) answer the question .....a modulation is NOT a transposition.....please try to understand (by thoroughly reading)this question before trying to answer it........beau:there is absolutely no difference between e flat and d sharp if played in the same octave....what are yu talking about?....they are the same note(same key on a board), and tempered to the same frequency, the only difference is what you call it dependign on how you are analyzing the piece it is in....how can the same key on a keyboard be two different notes?...if yu just mean to say they were different slightly before the scale was tempered, then i understand....however i think you are misunderstanding/ignoring the fact that without the equally tempered scales the keys no longer exist, for it is precisely this temperament which allows them to function the way they do and gave birth to the major-minor tonal system ...before the advent of this we had no harmony, it was all church modes and counterpoint, before that gregorian chant(which gave birth to the modes)......and just because the exact intervals have been tempered, doesnt mean the keys all sound the same.....these tempered frequencies still very much share the characteristics of the more exact frequencies they were changed from, and the keys still very much maintain their moods...i do agree that winds may be more expressive of this characteristic tho(although i would think the instrument manufacturers would be compensating for the equal temperament by now, otherwise our symphonies would never be in tune with each other, the pianist would be playing tempered while the winds non and it would be horrible) .....not strings however, for unless the one playing (and tuning) has perfect pitch he will use a tuner which is set to the tempered scale to tune his instruments...btw, the piano is a stringed instrument as well as it is a percussive one

Edited by hopelevre
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 09:07
Personally, I can't imagine the great melotronic epics of early King Crimson in any key other than E minor. Moonchild strays a little way up to A minor. Interesting that Starless chose G minor - I'm tempted to think this was to accomodate the saxes, but early live recordings exist long before the stuiod arrangement. maybe to allow the violin the low G on the opening melody in the live version (the melody was later changed to the guitar and the notes alterd - a successful update for sure).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 10:22
interesting subtopic: the different instruments and which keys are able to display their intrinsic qualities best

Edited by hopelevre
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 11:19

I'm surprised nobody's made a Derek Smalls "saddest of all keys" reference yet.

The range of the specific instrument is important, because transposing affects a number of elements like hand position, harmonic content, level of energy required, et cetera (minor things, mainly, but I'm sure it all adds up). And the flexibility of the instrument itself is a definite factor- a flute (for example) playing at the extreme high or low end of its range will add a dramatically different character than one that is comfortably centered.

Also, never underestimate the importance of experience- you hear enough sad songs in F#m when you're young and that will always seem like an intrinsically sad key to you, even if you don't consciously make the distinction. Minor is almost universally considered 'sadder' than major, when the only difference is a lowered 3rd (well, depending on the mode, I mean). Is that a natural distinction or just association?

But I think there is something, maybe even at the neural level, that responds differently to different keys. Of course, the keys themselves are an artificial human construction...so it must be specific combinations of wavelengths and timbres that produce the effect. Perhaps music software of the future will provide composition based on desired combinations of mood-affecting fundamental tones.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 11:47
james the keys are a very natural phenomena, based on very real frequency ratios, this is all done scientifically and has nothing to do with human construction......there used to be aan excellent resource on this at completechords.com....i have it printed out and am reading it now, but the site has been cahnged and i cant find it there any longer....also lets think of this question in terms of piano only, to avoid the variables associated with including other instruments, such as the differetn fingerings, etc.....none of this is a problem in a piece transposed to a new key on the piano

Edited by hopelevre
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 12:40

Of course I understand that the intervalic relationship between notes is supported by mathematical ratios.

I'm saying that the keys themselves were created to facilitate understanding of musical principles. There is no Db harmonic minor scale in nature; there are only various wavelengths that compliment each other in a musical sense better than others.

An inch does not have any real meaning before you make a ruler to measure it...no matter how specific you are about how many of them go into a yard. 440hz is not naturally any less of a 'real note' than 442hz, or 438hz, so therefore the keys and scales (deriving from the fundamental note) are based on human standards.

On an instrument without set temperament, one can transpose a song by minute amounts, and sooner or later it's going to have an effect on the overall sense of the piece.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 12:44
ahhh i see what yu meant now, sorry for taking it wrong, and thank you for taking the time to think about the question and answer it thoughtfully

Edited by hopelevre
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 15:35
There is also a significant psychological effect - a piece in C# Major will have a different 'feel' to a pianist to a piece in Db Mafor despite being enharmonically identical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 15:45

Originally posted by nacho nacho wrote:

Try to get the song "Ashes" by Pain of Salvation, in the "Perfect Element I" and the "12:5" albums, and compare both versions. This alone might answer your question...

That's not the same at all - it's changed from a minor to a major key (i.e. the intervals between each note are changed, rather than the whole thing being transposed).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 17:22
A Favor House Pacific  <--I took a song and digitally edited it to be in a lower key, and slowed the song down too...  it has an incredibly different feel now even if it's an incredibly stupid edit. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 17:50

D minor is typical for Requiem masses, as it is associated with death. Mozart used it masterfully in the sections of his requiem that he actually completed.

It was in fact Nigel Tufnell, not Derek Smalls who made the same observation in his piece, inspired by Mozart and Bach - a kind of "Mach" piece, with sad, intertwining lines, that D minor is the saddest of all keys - everyone cries when you play a D minor -> Bb Major -> A major progression... He called the piece "Lick My Love Pump".

Likewise, other keys have deep historical associations - Eb Major, the most pastoral of all keys is what Beethoven used for his "Pastoral" symphony.

When you drop a piano down a mine shaft, you get Ab minor - you really need to watch out for falling pianos, because if you don't C#, you will Bb...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2005 at 17:59
Like the piano it fell "b"Wink



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