hopelevre wrote: iwas thinking about requiems and this question came to mind.....the different keys are widely thought to have their own certain character or flavor(C major-triumphant, A flat major- key of the grave/ solemn , etc.).....i was wondering if you can think of any instances in prog or elsewhere(i would assume it would be in prog if it were anywhere), where the key of a really famous work of one of the greats( something most people would recognize if hearing, like the waltz from carmen or the sweet pathos in beethoven's 5th)is transposed to such a distant(different) key that the mood or tone of the song itself actually changes....i guess what im getting at as well would be this....every song can be transposed into every key, how much if at all does a key transposition really affect the way we hear a song? is the intervallic symmetry enough that the song remains the same song, or is some internal characteristic lost by this frequency change?

I have no f**king idea

I'm surprised nobody's made a Derek Smalls "saddest of all keys" reference yet.

The range of the specific instrument is important, because transposing affects a number of elements like hand position, harmonic content, level of energy required, et cetera (minor things, mainly, but I'm sure it all adds up). And the flexibility of the instrument itself is a definite factor- a flute (for example) playing at the extreme high or low end of its range will add a dramatically different character than one that is comfortably centered.

Also, never underestimate the importance of experience- you hear enough sad songs in F#m when you're young and that will always seem like an intrinsically sad key to you, even if you don't consciously make the distinction. Minor is almost universally considered 'sadder' than major, when the only difference is a lowered 3rd (well, depending on the mode, I mean). Is that a natural distinction or just association?

But I think there is something, maybe even at the neural level, that responds differently to different keys. Of course, the keys themselves are an artificial human construction...so it must be specific combinations of wavelengths and timbres that produce the effect. Perhaps music software of the future will provide composition based on desired combinations of mood-affecting fundamental tones.

Of course I understand that the intervalic relationship between notes is supported by mathematical ratios.

I'm saying that the keys themselves were created to facilitate understanding of musical principles. There is no Db harmonic minor scale in nature; there are only various wavelengths that compliment each other in a musical sense better than others.

An inch does not have any real meaning before you make a ruler to measure it...no matter how specific you are about how many of them go into a yard. 440hz is not naturally any less of a 'real note' than 442hz, or 438hz, so therefore the keys and scales (deriving from the fundamental note) are based on human standards.

On an instrument without set temperament, one can transpose a song by minute amounts, and sooner or later it's going to have an effect on the overall sense of the piece.

nacho wrote: Try to get the song "Ashes" by Pain of Salvation, in the "Perfect Element I" and the "12:5" albums, and compare both versions. This alone might answer your question...

That's not the same at all - it's changed from a minor to a major key (i.e. the intervals between each note are changed, rather than the whole thing being transposed).

D minor is typical for Requiem masses, as it is associated with death. Mozart used it masterfully in the sections of his requiem that he actually completed.

It was in fact Nigel Tufnell, not Derek Smalls who made the same observation in his piece, inspired by Mozart and Bach - a kind of "Mach" piece, with sad, intertwining lines, that D minor is the saddest of all keys - everyone cries when you play a D minor -> Bb Major -> A major progression... He called the piece "Lick My Love Pump".

Likewise, other keys have deep historical associations - Eb Major, the most pastoral of all keys is what Beethoven used for his "Pastoral" symphony.

When you drop a piano down a mine shaft, you get Ab minor - you really need to watch out for falling pianos, because if you don't C#, you will Bb...

Well... it is Saturday night

Certif1ed wrote: It was in fact Nigel Tufnell, not Derek Smalls who made the same observation in his piece, inspired by Mozart and Bach - a kind of "Mach" piece, with sad, intertwining lines, that D minor is the saddest of all keys - everyone cries when you play a D minor -> Bb Major -> A major progression... He called the piece "Lick My Love Pump".

I always confuse those two...just like Lennon and McCartney.

Only because it's such a tiny difference, I should think. And perhaps (subconciously) the violinist would make the difference even smaller when a pianist was playing.

A modulation occurs when a piece is trundling along in a particular key (e.g. D minor), and the composer takes the piece to a different key (e.g. G minor).

The composer can use a variety of devices to move the piece into the new key (cadence, sequence, etc.) and the point at which the piece changes is where it modulates. This may be the bar in which the cadence occurs, or the phrase that contains the sequence.

It's a nice trick to string out the modulation as long as possible, so that the tonal base of the previous section is all but lost, in order to move to a remote key smoothly - but it can be very dramatic to perform a sudden modulation into a remote key.

Moving a piece from one key into another is not modulation - it's transposition, and transposing the key of a piece will change the whole character of a song, with one exception; If you are playing a piece on the piano (or other instrument with fixed pitch ratios) and decide not to play it in Eb, but in D# instead, then it will not take on a new character - it cannot, as the notes are the same.

However, on a violin (or other instrument with variable pitch ratios), as has been pointed out, the sound (and hence) character will be subtly different.