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Certif1ed wrote: Music has a way of "confining" itself within boundaries. It's up to composers to find those boundaries and push them in an appropriate and contextual manner.

Yes, but I'm afraid your definition of "appropriate contextual manner" and mine, differ considerably.

Certif1ed wrote: I said that I don't think the vocals work in that context - and you seem to be saying that I cannot say that, because the band can do what they like and it will always work. This would infer that you are saying that you could pick up a bunch of instruments, play any old thing for an hour on each and create a masterpiece.

No, if the music does not follow the basic rules of music theory...it will or has the potential to sound extremely sh*tty - no chance for a masterpiece - I don't think so.  However, the choice of vocal styles really has nothing to do with music theory but more to do with the genre and style of music one wishes to convey.  I don't know of a better way of explaining it...the band is in a way "conforming" to a particular genre or subgenre of music.  In Epica's case it is Symphonic Goth, in this context the music and vocals do work, compare it to the other bands I mentioned and you will find common ground as well as perhaps more interesting use of orchestrations...

Certif1ed wrote: You cannot possiby understand my musical tastes, or you would not have thought that they were confining.

I understand your statements which reflects much about your musical tastes, however confining I may find them to be... 

Certif1ed wrote: Everything has a context - it is not confining at all, but may be the exact opposite. Therefore, to state that a particular style should have a context is merely an observation of its nature, and to find something out of context is a polite way of saying that it plain doesn't work.

When stating something plainly doesn't work, that's is a clear thought that cannot be misunderstood.  It is one's own opinion about the music at hand.  It doesn't mean you're opinion is true or correct.  Much of what you consider to be out of context may be as you say, the exact opposite for others who enjoy whatever it is you found to be "out of context."  

Certif1ed wrote: Form is one of the 5 basic elements of music. To ignore it in music is akin to ignoring gravity in architecture.

Form is...form.  Where does it say (music theory) that artists (bands) should conform to certain vocal styles for to use death growls in certain particular genres and styles of music is not conforming to the 5 basic elements of music?

If that's not "confining" music to remain with certain boundaries, I don't know what is?

Vanwarp wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate. Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper Oh, I understand the confining nature of your musical tastes, and there's nothing wrong with having musical preferences, but to state that the use of death vocals "needs to be contextually appropriate" is in my view, very narrow-minded of you.  I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it...

You cannot possiby understand my musical tastes, or you would not have thought that they were confining.

Everything has a context - it is not confining at all, but may be the exact opposite. Therefore, to state that a particular style should have a context is merely an observation of its nature, and to find something out of context is a polite way of saying that it plain doesn't work.

The composer chooses the context - not the listener, therefore it is not me who is doing any confining, but the composer and the rules of music.

To use a mulitplicity of pigeon-holes or subgenres is confining in the extreme I would casually observe...

Form is one of the 5 basic elements of music. To ignore it in music is akin to ignoring gravity in architecture.

You might be surprised what I do get with regard to music

Certif1ed wrote: It is, but it needs to be contextually appropriate. Just because you don't understand what I'm getting at, there's no need to dismiss it, young grasshopper

Oh, I understand the confining nature of your musical tastes, and there's nothing wrong with having musical preferences, but to state that the use of death vocals "needs to be contextually appropriate" is in my view, very narrow-minded of you.  I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't get it...   

Certif1ed wrote: I am perfectly aware of most musical genres, although I totally disagree with the silly subgenre labelling that people seem to have a fetish for - and I feel comfortable with genres that would make your brains curl out of your ears in protest! It's contextually inappropriate in my opinion.

Unfortunately, labeling musical subgenres is necessary to help those looking for similar bands who play the same genre and style of music they crave...however silly that might sound to you.

Contextually is one of those words that I find very confining when talking about music in general.  It doesn't leave much room for the music to spread beyond what it already is...just my 2 cents!

Vanwarp wrote: Certif1ed wrote: It's a pity about the obsessive need to employ death metal vocals at inappropriate places... and I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form. This tends to suffer from the same impression that if you go off at a sudden tangent, you can hide the fact that you lack the imagination to develop what has gone before. "Growling" is associated with other more sombre/dark musical genres that you are evidently not as familiar or comfortable with.  It's not an "obsessive need to employ" death style vocals, it's the genre and style of music the band is interested in playing.  The band has plenty of imagination by including the good and the bad, or if you prefer, the good and the evil - the angel and the devil.  Epica is perhaps not the best example as the music is OK but not much better than average.  For a better feel for the genre, After Forever, Nightwish, Tristania, Within Temptation and Penumbra all have a little more to offer...musically speaking.  Some of these bands do occasionally cross into progressive metal territory, but the genre of music here is definitely deeply rooted in gothic music.  Think more along the lines of Evanescence and Lacuna Coil but with more symphonic undertones and the occasional death vocals...

I am perfectly aware of most musical genres, although I totally disagree with the silly subgenre labelling that people seem to have a fetish for - and I feel comfortable with genres that would make your brains curl out of your ears in protest!

It's contextually inappropriate in my opinion.

Maybe I should have made it a bit clearer...

vogre: Kamelot - that was the band I was trying to think of for comparison - thanks!

Certif1ed wrote: It's a pity about the obsessive need to employ death metal vocals at inappropriate places... and I stand by everything I've ever said about prog metal and form. This tends to suffer from the same impression that if you go off at a sudden tangent, you can hide the fact that you lack the imagination to develop what has gone before.

"Growling" is associated with other more sombre/dark musical genres that you are evidently not as familiar or comfortable with.  It's not an "obsessive need to employ" death style vocals, it's the genre and style of music the band is interested in playing.  The band has plenty of imagination by including the good and the bad, or if you prefer, the good and the evil - the angel and the devil.  Epica is perhaps not the best example as the music is OK but not much better than average.  For a better feel for the genre, After Forever, Nightwish, Tristania, Within Temptation and Penumbra all have a little more to offer...musically speaking.  Some of these bands do occasionally cross into progressive metal territory, but the genre of music here is definitely deeply rooted in gothic music.  Think more along the lines of Evanescence and Lacuna Coil but with more symphonic undertones and the occasional death vocals...

Valarius wrote: I'll have to hear some songs before I judge, but usually I don't like metal bands with female vocals because they do a lot of that growling/shouting stuff... I'll have to check them out anyway.

Check out The Gathering, they have female vocals ONLY (at least their newer albums starting with Mandylion, the previous ones suck anyway).